Upgrade, replace or retire?

[Greycat]

5 hours ago, High_Beam said:

You wouldn't hear me complaining.  I have always considered Striga to be a weird thing.  Hess was awesome the first few times and Moonfire is what it is, a way to quickly clock wolves and vamps.  Things seemed to be just shoved in there because they needed a place.  I mean Sky Raiders?  Banished Pantheon?

 

I'll say Sky Raiders *kind of* make sense, to me. It's a port, it's remote, having a base there to operate from kind of makes sense. Same reason the Family make sense to be there.

 

The BP, though... yeah. There's just no link there. Sure, there's a graveyard. And? It just feels like they were put there because that's the range of enemies that are there. They made sense in (old) Dark Astoria (also in the same level range.) It had the background that would have attracted them. The missions with them just feel shoehorned in.

[Dona Eis Requiem]

• Ooh, imagine a huge mansion with all the defenses of a real crime boss.  Could be an interesting end-game of a 'Family' related arc.
• Thrown in some 'Big Trouble in Little China' scale of epicness for an EB/AV fight with the Tsoo.
• The Warriors? IDK why but I picture there main hub as an old tower ruins somewhere in Striga (maybe by the cemetary) that has ancient underground tunnels (not caves, more like old stone aqueducts in the Roman style) that they use for smuggling. 

[Clave Dark 5]

By the way, has anyone yet mentioned the Croatoa groups, especially the Fir Bolg?  Love their look but there's no story other than "they're spooky, let's you and them fight!"    I mean, just look at the wiki entry...

Having already done a bit with them in the past for AE, I nominate myself to expend their story. 

 

You're welcome, devs! 😃

[GastlyGibus]

25 minutes ago, Clave Dark 5 said:

By the way, has anyone yet mentioned the Croatoa groups, especially the Fir Bolg?  Love their look but there's no story other than "they're spooky, let's you and them fight!"    I mean, just look at the wiki entry...

Having already done a bit with them in the past for AE, I nominate myself to expend their story. 

 

You're welcome, devs! 😃

There is some story to Croatoa, though it is fairly barebones. The Fir Bolg and Tuatha de Dannon are supposed to be the long-dead spirits of ancient Irish tribes, locked in some eternal conflict. The Red Caps and the Cabal, however, need some more explanation. The Cabal are just "the Red Caps killed our husbands so we became witches to fight them" and the Red Caps are... some kind of mischievous fairy things, I guess?

 

One upgrade I would love to see in Croatoa would be with the Fir Bolg and Red Caps, so that they aren't all using the same exact models. Seriously, it's so lazy. Literally all of the Fir Bolg and Red Caps use the same models, just scaled up for different ranks. Even Eochai, who is supposed to be the leader of the Fir Bolg and their king, is just a really big Fir Bolg. Come on. The Tuatha and Cabal have some variance in their character models, why not the other two groups as well?

Edited September 8, 2023 by GastlyGibus

[High_Beam]

12 hours ago, Dona Eis Requiem said:

• Ooh, imagine a huge mansion with all the defenses of a real crime boss.  Could be an interesting end-game of a 'Family' related arc.
• Thrown in some 'Big Trouble in Little China' scale of epicness for an EB/AV fight with the Tsoo.
• The Warriors? IDK why but I picture there main hub as an old tower ruins somewhere in Striga (maybe by the cemetary) that has ancient underground tunnels (not caves, more like old stone aqueducts in the Roman style) that they use for smuggling. 

ANyone who references Big Trouble in Little China is okay in my book.  As for the Family, I could totally dig the Battle of Villa Requin

[WumpusRat]

As far as the Family goes, I don't really see a pressing need to have them be an "end-game faction".

They're not out to conquer the world, they're not threats on the scale that Arachnos, Council, or other things are.

They're a bunch of crime families who manage drug trade, steal cars, run gambling dens, and the like.
Redside definitely fleshes them out a lot more, but they're fine being a low to mid-range group. 

Once you're up to the point of saving the world regularly, fighting planar entities, and the like, a bunch of goombahs with machine guns who are trying to steal a couple cars seems like something that just doesn't measure up to the same level of threat.

 

If they wanted to make some more Family-specific story arcs I'd be fine with that though. I just don't think they need to be running around being threats on par with Malta, Arachnos, Ruularu, etc. 

[biostem]

On 9/7/2023 at 12:29 AM, LegionAlpha said:

So as I was watching the epilogue to Justice League Unlimited for the (I lost count) it hit me that a lot of groups or solo heroes or villain's who are not immortal will age, fade (or a developer find them irrelevant) or disband because of (insert RP reason here). 

 

So I would like to put to you in the developer chair and out of curiosity for a year to see who or what group you would do as the title suggests.

 

Me;

 

Retire: The Warriors. Okay the group was funny for many of us who are either baby boomer or gen X who watched the movie back in 1979 in theaters or on TV later on, laugh at the parody. But as a group, time to move on . No one is digging it it outside Numia TF or missions in Talos Island. 

 

Upgrade: Freakshow: One of the popular groups would get the Cyberpunk 2077 treatment. Of course you would have the gen 1 freaks, but then have the ones who use guns and machines (droids), or in Crey facilities use building defenses against you. 

 

Replace: Arachnos and Malta: With a group that Indigo would be hard press to understand who the "good guys" were. Employing "gods" or anyone who they feel would be useful after the blink( Yes guy in game I am stealing it for content.)  are a lot more relentless and would be able to do a regime change to Arachnos with little effort. 

 

Like I said it curious and let your imagination go on this one.  

The problem is the game is sort of in a state of stasis with regard to where the world is when we first create our characters and when we "finish" them at 50+3.  It's not a perfect analogy, but as you progress in level, time also advances in-game.  In theory, and if this was a single-player game, (and assuming you did the story arcs), AP should be nearly crime free, and the situation with various other villain groups changed, by the time you hit PI and the updated DA. 

[Techwright]

Wasn't there a comment in time past that the Homecoming Devs are working in the background at building out upgrades for the Warriors?

 

As others have mentioned, passage of time is tricky in this game as a static existence is partially in play.   That said, I've long stated that I felt the CoT were overused.  One possible solution to that would be to have an event push that 'reduces" their numbers and appearances, but I think more likely there could be a civil war in the ranks, and their forces altered as two opposing disciplines arise in their ranks.  This could lead to similar-but-new types as the opposing views shape their forces.

 

In the aftermath of Frostfire, the Outcasts could do with a restructuring which possibly could create a more formidable force.  I've suggested elsewhere that the restructuring result in a committee leadership, top dog of each power type (earth, lightning, ice, fire) sit on the committee and be responsible for his/her power groups training and ranking.  I'll now take that  idea a step further and suggest that the Outcasts, having lost their dual-powers leader, explore the possibility of dual-powers via forbidden science or tech.  In other words "Rocky" may be a natural earth mover, but he'll wear tech that gives him some electrical powers as well.  The best dual-wielders to gain seats on the council.  And the council leadership will take turns as the head of the organization.  It's harder to take down if you're not sure who is the pinnacle of the organization this month.

 

As to solo characters:  I know this won't be popular, but Back Alley Brawler needs to be dealt with.  Hear me out.  Multiple reports say he's old, and should be retired.  Either he should be coming around to hanging up the gloves, OR he pulls a Nick Fury and drinks some longevity potion which restores his health and strength.  Either way there's a progress to show for it.

[Vic Raiden]

12 hours ago, biostem said:

The problem is the game is sort of in a state of stasis with regard to where the world is when we first create our characters and when we "finish" them at 50+3.  It's not a perfect analogy, but as you progress in level, time also advances in-game.  In theory, and if this was a single-player game, (and assuming you did the story arcs), AP should be nearly crime free, and the situation with various other villain groups changed, by the time you hit PI and the updated DA. 

I sincerely like the idea of what a single-player CoH could possibly be like, and having the player's influence on the world actually be visible is one major point. But that's a topic for another thread.

[rolandgrey]

I wouldn't remove any faction.  I would update and evolve just about any group.  The Hellions and Skulls have changed a bit, but they remain a lowly street gang.

 

I would put effort into updating the following factions...

 

The Igneous.  These rock monsters show up in the Hollows and then promptly disappear from the rest of the game.  I would have them show up as an antagonist force against the Devouring Earth, to better help explain why Hamidon is having trouble overwhelming this world the way his Praetorian counterpart did.  Considering the fact they're essentially living lava, this makes them more representative of the "life force" of the Earth far better than the plant monsters do.  Probably the only new enemy type I would introduce is the Obsidian, which would be similar to the gem-based enemies of the Devouring Earth, but would be a high-damage lethal striker with bleed effects as opposed to the DE's high-accuracy glass cannons.

 

The Outcasts.  Right now, they're just another group of thugs, no different from the Hellions and Skulls except for the fact that their varied onslaught can actually be dangerous.  Since this group appeals to characters who are ostracized, I would have them incorporate lower-level Praetorian refugees, a few more unique members (maybe give them an arc in Steel Canyon which showcases they have more leadership than just Frostfire).  I would probably get rid of the mundane weapon wielders, though, or at least give them abilities to go along with their pistols, knives, bats and axes, something that sets them apart from the Skulls and Hellions (who already have full ranks with the same kind of gang member).

 

The Legacy Chain.  First, I would mix up the representation.  I absolutely hate the design philosophy that made the factions lock certain types of enemies to certain level ranges.  This means we lose the Legacy of Steel and the Legacy of Light in the post-20 levels.  I would mix that up and have those groups show up again at later levels.  I would also extend the Legacy past Level 30, so we'd start getting the Legacy of Water and the Legacy of Darkness.  I would include plots that show this group is getting way in over their heads.  The Legacy of Darkness adherents would be showing extreme changes to their physiques (pale skin, darkened eyes, with bosses having monstrous, deteriorating hands) and a few unique members who are showing signs that their magic use is having deleterious effects (such as an Inferno of Flame EB/AV with burnt robes and fire jetting out of him, a Tellus of Earth who has become part stone, a Radiant of Light who has become living light or an "Umbra of Darkness" who has become a liche).  Finally, I would lean hard into the idea that the Legacy Chain is a bunch of know-nothing-know-it-alls, and has had a schism in their ranks as a result, with some going full Crusader in their efforts to use magic to "bring justice" to the world (to the point they're doing just as much evil as they're trying to stop) to others who have realized they're out of their depth and need to learn more before their pursuit of hidden knowledge consumes them (Archivists?).

 

The Council and the Fifth Column.  I agree with Greycat's assessment and have nothing further to add.

 

The Malta Group.  This organization has effective weaponry and technology, but they stagnated.  They've got a mad roboticist in The Slinger and just gained access to Praetorian technology through Battle Maiden.  They need to start leaning in that direction.  With all the work they've done for Crey (because the troops we fight are mostly a mercenary company in the same vein as Blackwater) and their other work with various technologists (like Dr. Quatrexin), they would definitely see the benefit in utilizing powered armor.  We need to start seeing more of their mad science.  Maybe enemies armed with weapons that make you out-of-sync with reality for a little while (an expression of Slinger's weird weapon from the Recluse Strike Force) or some brainwashed heroes and villains, or maybe some that have gone mercenary like Moment.  The group is terrifying in concept, but is largely irrelevant in actual gameplay.  Aside from a few enemies, the Malta Group just isn't that challenging.  The Sappers and the Zeus Titans are a shock when we first encounter them (especially when you see two Hercs combine for the first time), but that novelty wears off quickly.

 

The Nemesis Army.  More robots.  That's pretty much it.  This group needs variety.  I also wish we could get some new map sets that are reflective of their steampunk theme.  We get one where they're engaging in an incursion into the Shadow Shard, but that's it, and it's so neat.  I want to see more of that.

 

The Sky Raiders.  Give these guys some flying pistoleers.  A group with Captain Castillo in it needs to start exuding that "rakish knave" style.  They could probably use some more flying robots, too.  It's weird that it's the Fifth Column and the Council that have flying robot minions, but not the Sky Raiders (especially since the Sky Raiders have worked with the Praetorian Army, so should have access to some advanced schematics).  The Jump Bots are helpful, but their rank makes for limited deployment.

 

The Tsoo.  I would do with them the same as the Legacy Chain's ranks, in that I would mix up the enemy types.  Otherwise, their story is fine.  I just hate getting into the post-20 levels and suddenly I'm fighting only ONE type of Tsoo enemy (Red Ink Men, Green Ink Men, later, the Blue Ink Men, who are just the same as the Red Ink Men, just in a new suit).  I miss the ninja at this point.  Also, I would make some lieutenant versions of the Boss types, because Sorcerers are much too annoying and the many different Tsoo bosses are just so neat, I would love to see more.

 

The Warriors.  I don't agree with the assessment that they're just a reference to a late 70s movie.  Really, the only reference to the movie is a line said by antagonists in some of the pre-aggro fights we see dotted throughout Talos Island.  However, the group does need to start using those magic items they've been trafficking.  We've got a couple who do, such as Heracles, and we get hints that the Warriors do place importance on the use of various magical items (like the Crown of Glory).  Since they're narratively the whipping boys of Talos Island, this should inspire a desperation in them to whip out the magic weapons and armor and start fighting back.  It would be nice to see some alternate weapons models on these guys, too.  The fact they're still using the basic sword and axe models just further marks them as out-of-touch with the changing world.

 

The Devouring Earth.  The normal DE I wouldn't touch.  Plant and rock monsters attacking players.  Neat.  It's the Devoured I would modify.  We get a hint at their capability with Pyriss, and the higher level Devoured explicitly have it in their descriptions that they are consumed meta humans.  These higher leveled Devoured should be doing more than just hitting us with big claws, vomiting on us and spitting bees.  They should have access to the powers they've consumed, like Pyriss does.  It would be neat to see some alternate colors on them, too.

 

Finally, Longbow.  Rank-and-file, I wouldn't change.  It's the Wardens I would change.  I would like to see them using some COLOR.  It's so irritating that we can never tell what the Warden is until they attack us (unless we break the gameplay loop and check their Info box before the fight).  Since they're supposed to be the in-house heroes of Freedom Corps, maybe they should dress the part. 

 

So, those are my major ideas for which groups to update and how.

[Clave Dark 5]

On 9/7/2023 at 7:19 PM, GastlyGibus said:

There is some story to Croatoa, though it is fairly barebones. The Fir Bolg and Tuatha de Dannon are supposed to be the long-dead spirits of ancient Irish tribes, locked in some eternal conflict.

Your description of it is longer than the story itself.

[tidge]

I'll springboard off of what others have written.

 

The Warriors: I think this faction suffers from two things. The first is that the levels they occupy are easy to shoot past, and don't offer much in the way to motivate players to revisit them... with the exception being Stephanie Peebles arc (the first one) in Striga. The second problem IMO is that as potential spawns they don't offer enough variety/challenge in the current game.

 

Historically, the Warriors always struck me as being primarily "resistant melee" types... they can provide problems to some (blueside, where they mostly appear) AT... but otherwise they are cannon fodder. I would upgrade them to include some new mobs that are doing things like Taunting or Confronting players, and also add mobs that are leveraging "artefacts"...sort of how Vanguard can be a PITA when they are using their "powers".

 

The Warriors could also use an actual TF that is easier to revisit than just scrolling through Oroborous (and/or Mortimer Kal).

 

The Family: Like the Warriors, I think the suffer for being the level at which they (mostly) exist. I like the energy weapons they get for higher levels. I really wouldn't make any changes to them, although I'd like to actually get some Nathaniel Frost missions. AFAIK he's only mentioned on the exploration stuff. In my head canon, he's some combination of Walt Disney (is body being cryogenically preserved) and/or a CoT-adjacent Cold Demon seeking immortality. The Lore implies that Mayor Spanky and the Frost Family had some inkling about what the banished Pantheon was up to... I could see them making deals with the Circle of Thorns.

 

Knives of Artemis: I rather like these as high-level (pre-Incarnate) enemies. I like that Indigo was one of them. I dislike that we never get a (non-incarnate) IMO satisfactory explanation of their organization and how they could possible stand apart from the Malta Group. Is it wrong that I think the TIP missions featuring them are generally better than any of the contact missions using them? The one obvious upgrade I would give this group would be to introduce some mobs that can benefit from things like Assassin's Strike and/or use Placate. I also think that it wouldn't be unreasonable to add at least one additional trap to their arsenal.

 

I have mixed feelings about the Council. Part of me dislikes that they are the default blueside punching bags for level 50.... but this role has to be somebody. If this really bothered me, and I really wanted to add a challenge for players, I'd put Void Hunters, Quantums, Cysts, and/or Ascendents in the mix for Radio missions at level 50. There is the one blueside Tip Mission that features Void Hunters, but AFAIK that's it for non-Kheldians.

[drgantz]

As we know, this game is based on superheroes and superheroes barely age.

To give a few examples:

 

Batman first appeared in 1939.  If we assume that he was 19, then he would be 103 now.

Spiderman first appeared in 1962.  If we assume that he was 12, then he would be 73 now.

I think the best example is Franklin Richards who was born in 1968.  I believe that he is still a child.

 

The point is that we shouldn't care whether or not game characters age.

[Go0gleplex]

The Hydra need to be done away with really. No real point to them in Perez though as sewer fodder they still work.  Would be better to replace them and the skulls outside of the Galaxy City gate with Shivan that have broken thru and began spreading into Perez.  Would actually generate some suppression missions against the Shivan bringing them beyond the GC tutorial.  Could have them breaking thru the GC tunnel into north KR too and alleviate some of the Skull breaking boredom of the zone missions. 

 

Sky Raiders...talk about a group that has a negative profit to loss ratio being treated more like scavengers than an actual military/merc organization. Agree with re-vamping them a bit with more toys and stuff like flying fortresses (Sky Captain type comes to mind) and giving them some event type appearances;  random attack on industrial/science facilities in force; both blue and red side. Mission-wise, they, like the skulls, seem over used for the low mid-levels IMO. 

[srmalloy]

1 hour ago, Go0gleplex said:

The Hydra need to be done away with really. No real point to them in Perez though as sewer fodder they still work.  Would be better to replace them and the skulls outside of the Galaxy City gate with Shivan that have broken thru and began spreading into Perez. 

The problem with that is that the SG portal is right outside that gate; it would need to be moved if you don't want to either leave the police drones there (at which point, Shivans coming through that gate is a non-problem) or force characters to run a gauntlet of Shivans to get to the rest of the zone.

 

A better location would be the big lock gate in the west wall in the southwest of Perez, which matches to the similar gate in the east wall of (echo) Galaxy City where the Land Locked badge is. This does have the drawback of requiring more zone geometry changes to show the breached gate.

 

I think a better alternative would be to set up a 'command center' near that gate, with a contact that either hands out repeatable missions or a TF (or both), with a teleporter that takes you to instanced maps where you're fighting against Shivans that are trying to/have broken through the gate in GC, and you're working to push them back so the gate can be resealed. Repeatable missions could be configured to use the GM code so minions are even-level regardless of character level, letting characters of any level run them for XP. The missions can be described as taking place in the (nebulous in game terms) space between the war walls of GC and Perez.