Upgrade, replace or retire?

[LegionAlpha]

So as I was watching the epilogue to Justice League Unlimited for the (I lost count) it hit me that a lot of groups or solo heroes or villain's who are not immortal will age, fade (or a developer find them irrelevant) or disband because of (insert RP reason here). 

 

So I would like to put to you in the developer chair and out of curiosity for a year to see who or what group you would do as the title suggests.

 

Me;

 

Retire: The Warriors. Okay the group was funny for many of us who are either baby boomer or gen X who watched the movie back in 1979 in theaters or on TV later on, laugh at the parody. But as a group, time to move on . No one is digging it it outside Numia TF or missions in Talos Island. 

 

Upgrade: Freakshow: One of the popular groups would get the Cyberpunk 2077 treatment. Of course you would have the gen 1 freaks, but then have the ones who use guns and machines (droids), or in Crey facilities use building defenses against you. 

 

Replace: Arachnos and Malta: With a group that Indigo would be hard press to understand who the "good guys" were. Employing "gods" or anyone who they feel would be useful after the blink( Yes guy in game I am stealing it for content.)  are a lot more relentless and would be able to do a regime change to Arachnos with little effort. 

 

Like I said it curious and let your imagination go on this one.  

[Clave Dark 5]

Arachnos is far too entrenched in redside to just see them fade away, that'd be like saying let's do a BLT without bacon.  So I'd say upgrade them.

[Greycat]

Ehhhhh.... 

 

I mean, part of the question here is how things are seen in game, too. For instance, the Hellions aren't really a threat by mid-level. They're already "retired," but they're an appropriate low level group. Same with the Skulls. I could see updating the *stories* a bit, but not really doing anything with the gruops. They kind of go with the "levels are time" ... semi-philosophy. 

 

To me, revamping a *lot* of the groups would really need a "COH 2." That said... hmm. 

 

Update: Council and 5th column. Make them more distinct, lean more heavily on "fascist army" vs "alien bio/energy/tech" as a split. They'll still fight each other, they'll probably butt heads, but make them less interchangeable and with divergent, distinct goals. 

 

Update: Crey, which I feel was underway. They've gotten tweaked. Honestly, what I'd like to see "updated" with them is the whole story arc with them. The *old* Outbreak tutorial had them "helping," after all, and while it'd be hard to reset the brain after all this time, having them start out as actually helpful - maybe even giving missions to the characters (alternate to DFB and the Hollows) while you discover what they're really up to and end up fighting against (or... hell, helping them anyway) would make them more interesting. There's only so many times you can hear the "oh, that was a rogue element, we're cleaning hosue" line. 

 

Update: Legacy Chain. make them actually interesting. Give us more to do with them blueside. Specifics? I don't know. They're just such an ... ehh... group. 

 

Retire (mostly) - Hydra. At least low level. There's no real impact to them being in Perez, for instance, other than the Kraken. They're not really the "shock troops" from the Rikti. They're just ... the blobs that exist in some places, until you get into the later arcs. Late-game, give them a bit of a rewrite to go with the lore and have them show up, sure. Rewrite the bit that  has them so  you fight, then make contact, and then feel like you're *freeing* them from the Rikti. 

 

Update: Slag golems. OK, mostly I just want to replace the "We're Slag Golems, and we're attacking!" placeholder dialog that's STILL IN THE GAME SINCE COV WAS RELEASED. They're ... a small range and mostly forgettable, though, even on redside. 

[Snarky]

I long ago realized that Paragon, the Rogue Isles, and points East are caught in a "time bottle"  I even run a few characters based on the premise.

 

Almost NONE of the people in CoH realize this.  

 

The "Time Bottle" effect is best seen from the vantage of one of my robot toons investigating it.  Using OURO they diligently run every bit of content.  As they progress in levels they stop exp.  They do everything they can in that level range.  No one notices (whether in "real" or "ouro" time) that everyone in Paragon is caught in this temporal "bottle"  Stuck doing the same things endlessly as if it is the first time.  Unsure if the Menders realize.  They pretend they do not notice at least. 

 

Outside the bottle everything is normal.  Time marches on, computers advance, cars are updated.  In Paragon it is always the same few days of X year, cycling forever more.

[Scarlet Shocker]

I dislike the Warriors as a group here. They are just kind of bland and their lore is entirely avoidable - it seems intentionally so. That said they are simply a blip in the levelling adventure and I wouldn't get rid for two reasons: 1) having bad enemy groups is a good mirror for good enemy groups and helps us appreciate the good more easily 2) I might not like them others may well enjoy them greatly and it's not for me to say they shouldn't exist or be heavily modified

 

Also did the Freakshow not just recently get an upgrade in lore? I haven't played that particular content so I'm unclear but it I recall reading that they merge with another faction or something?

 

Arachnos are a core component of the game as it stands. It would be dangerous (and very messy) to wreak any changes on them.

[Without_Pause]

Updating the Council if for no other reason to stop making them the absolute cannon fodder of the end game. 

[cranebump]

I just hate Freaks. I feel about them the way others feel about Warriors -- pointless and stupid. And yet, there they are. All over the place. I'd personally like to get rid of them, but I have no basis to justify the suggestion, other than my unending, irrational hatred for these stupid, dumbass, piece of s*** m**********rs.:-) (pst...I do not like them)

 

That said, I'd not replace anything. I'd update nearly everything, expanding "horizontally" (telling more stories within the level bands these groups inhabit). I'd develop more synergy between groups and their agendas. I mean, they all should be united in kicking the good guy's asses, right? Anyhoo, as to the question at hand:

 

UPDATE: Another vote for Council in endgame mode (MOAR GIANT ROBOTS!)

 

UPDATE: Another Legacy Chain vote. . What happened to them after they were smashed to bits? Surely there were some survivors. Wouldn't they try, try again - maybe compromise their principles a bit, due to the mission and the environment? Adopt an "ends justify the means" approach?

 

Was going to mention our favorite plant blob thingees, but this:

6 hours ago, Greycat said:

Retire (mostly) - Hydra. At least low level. There's no real impact to them being in Perez, for instance, other than the Kraken. They're not really the "shock troops" from the Rikti. They're just ... the blobs that exist in some places, until you get into the later arcs. Late-game, give them a bit of a rewrite to go with the lore and have them show up, sure. Rewrite the bit that  has them so  you fight, then make contact, and then feel like you're *freeing* them from the Rikti. 

...is better than any suggestion I could make.

 

This one is interesting...

9 hours ago, LegionAlpha said:

Replace: Arachnos and Malta: With a group that Indigo would be hard press to understand who the "good guys" were. Employing "gods" or anyone who they feel would be useful after the blink( Yes guy in game I am stealing it for content.)  are a lot more relentless and would be able to do a regime change to Arachnos with little effort. 

...but problematic. As already stated: Arachnos is too deep in lore to extract. And Malta actually causes some players to pause when they appear (gd Sappers...). That said, I feel like you can layer in this proposed group over the top of what's already here. Schisms in both Arachnos and Malta, leading to a strange alliance, ultimately headed toward a collision as they achieve their ends (Okay, now that we've one, WE'RE in charge- not you.). That could certainly make a cool endgame arc. I mean, I assume it would. I don't play a great deal of endgame content, so I'm probably the wrong person to comment on that.

 

[Go0gleplex]

The Outcasts could be upgraded. Currently there's fire, ice, earth, and electric...but there's been a couple power set adds that could be applied. They could also start getting organized behind leaders other than the Frostfire arc rather than just running around like street punks. This could lead to divisions into factions, one leaning more towards rebel teen types, one the punks they are, and a more radicalized faction making a grab for real power....and possibly being tools of Crey or such. 

 

Freakshow...bad guys whose evolution renders them unable to even feed themselves? I can't see lasting or expanding much. Revamp and take some vibes from Battle Angel Alita verse or Ghost in the Shell. Make more sense or dangerous. If not for the obvious insanity caused by their machine bits/pain, I'm surprised someone opportunistic group hasn't assimilated them as expendable shock troops (tools). 

 

The Family need more of a role too. They just sort of hang around IP with a few mission arcs that really have no impact. Given the super powered groups around 'em, they really are just a relic of bygone days at this point. 

 

 

Edited September 7, 2023 by Go0gleplex

[UltraAlt]

22 minutes ago, Go0gleplex said:

just running around like street punks

 

Well, that is pretty much what they are intended to be.

 

9 hours ago, LegionAlpha said:

who or what group you would do as the title suggests

 

Upgrading? Sure spice up any group a little bit.

Adding the "Girlfriend from Hell" to Hellions was awesome from my viewpoint. It pretty much seems that they were added due to the mastermind mechanic being added. Not sure if other similar villain archetypes were already mix into other groups - the "Girlfriend from Hell" really stood out to me as an addition when I first ran into them.

LT and/or Boss level Warrior Thug-masterminds with "Gang War" would really mix things up. They are the last step up on the street gang totem pole. (I don't really consider the Family or the Tsoo to fall into the "street gang" motif. They are step above a street gang. More like organized crime.)

 

Replace?

Already seen that with 5th Column and the Council.

I can pass on that. This would be very time consuming for the DEVs. Also, why remove existing content?

 

Retire?

Hard pass on this. Why remove existing content?

 

9 hours ago, LegionAlpha said:

So I would like to put to you in the developer chair

 

How about this: https://homecoming.wiki/wiki/Architect_Entertainment

It has become to be known as for Farming only it seems, and that was not why it was created.

You can make your own villain groups and story arcs there. 

Yes. Real actual villain groups that are interesting and challenging.

Customize existing groups by adding new enemy types.

Create story arcs with your own story ideas that other players can play.

When you build stories in the AE, you are the DEV. 

 

Edited September 7, 2023 by UltraAlt

[cranebump]

14 minutes ago, UltraAlt said:

How about this: https://homecoming.wiki/wiki/Architect_Entertainment

It has become to be known as for Farming only it seems, and that was not why it was created.

You can make your own villain groups and story arcs there. 

Yes. Real actual villain groups that are interesting and challenging.

Customize existing groups by adding new enemy types.

Create story arcs with your own story ideas that other players can play.

When you build stories in the AE, you are the DEV. 

 

Well...I'm obviously on board with this.:-)

 

[High_Beam]

While I agree that the Warriors seem underwhelming, I disagree with the people who say they need to go.  While there may be a minimal reference to the bad film from the eighties, they are in fact ground heavily in greek mythology.  But now I have to do the spoiler thing because a lot of story arcs actually give depth to the Warriors.

 

Spoiler

In the Bonfire Plot, they are part of the Hellions-Outcasts-Warriors plot to distribute magical artifacts.  They are significant parts of the Mortimer Kal Task Force and if anyone bothered to actually run it vice speed run it in 8 minutes, they would see that there is character development with regards to the leader of the Warriors.  Also you see the conflict between them and the Tsoo in general in Talos as well as in the Redemption of Alexander the Great Arc.  Now if you want to do something with this group instead of saying I don't like fringe jackets and swords and actually make things better.  Improve the story arc that ties them with the lower tiered guys like they did with Lords of Death Arc, which again if you did Bonfire lets you in on the Skulls-Trolls-Family structure for Superadine distribution.

 

So understanding that you could easily ramp them up to some pushing and shoving with the Midnighters (again).

 

As for the Freakshow, I find no group more appropriate and fitting to both this game and in many ways reality.  Their chaos is glorious and the issue of body modification and how far should it be taken is a thing.  They honestly don't need a lot of tweaking.  Maybe more visibility from their other AV class leaders like Bile and Drek instead of another day of Clamor.   How about random day raves like the trolls but far more.  Remember, they are integrated into the Zig Breakout event in Bricks.

 

Legacy Chain - Yeah I totally need them to expand on them, the good guy versions of the Circle of Thorns.  They would be a good avenue to work on.

 

@UltraAlt makes good points about not needing to totally revamp a group but add additional spice.  I for one liked the expansion of female enemy models (thought Female Crabs still look weird).  Death Dolls and female Skulls was good.  Girlfriend from Hell (the Death Doll equivalent) needs to be followed with regular female Hellion creeps.  Similarly I feel that the Freakshow is missing out on female anarchists.  I mean literally there is only Clamor.  Trolls are just Superadine addicted idiots so why aren't there female addicts there?  I am not waving the gender equality for everything flag here, some groups clearly would exclude women for a variety of historical or thematic reasons (the Family, the Warriors, Nemesis) but the Tsoo?  Chinese's mythology and epic stories are rife with women flying around on wires cutting people up with blades (and yes I know Tub Ci is Vietnamese) but the lore says Triads.

Edited September 7, 2023 by High_Beam
Spelling Error. There Are Probably More :)

[srmalloy]

56 minutes ago, High_Beam said:

So understanding that you could easily ramp them up to some pushing and shoving with the Midnighters (again).

There's also the two sides of their interactions with the Family on Striga, where you can find them both working with the Family on smuggling items in or out of Striga, and engaging in knock-down drag-out fistfights for dominance. Add a small chance for a Warriors/Family fight spawn in IP, and add a couple of missions to the radio mission list for IP and Talos on a warehouse map where the Warriors and Family are fighting over who should be managing smuggling operations, and you give some more depth to the Warriors. Adding a story arc dealing with the 'disagreement' between the two groups over smuggling would be better, but that would take more development and would need a contact to offer it.

[High_Beam]

15 minutes ago, srmalloy said:

Adding a story arc dealing with the 'disagreement' between the two groups over smuggling would be better, but that would take more development and would need a contact to offer it.

You wouldn't hear me complaining.  I have always considered Striga to be a weird thing.  Hess was awesome the first few times and Moonfire is what it is, a way to quickly clock wolves and vamps.  Things seemed to be just shoved in there because they needed a place.  I mean Sky Raiders?  Banished Pantheon?

[GastlyGibus]

I'm going to go against the grain here and add some suggestions not yet mentioned.

Upgrade: The Family. I really dislike the Family in this game, not because they're bad or difficult or anything, but because they just sort of... exist. They don't have any arch-villains or big bosses to fight, they have no story arcs dedicated to them, they always feel like they were just kind of slapped in the game as an afterthought because the developers wanted Italian mobsters in their superhero game. They have no real presence in the game's story or history. They just exist. I'd love to see some story arcs or task forces that specifically deal with them and have us learn more of the inner-workings of their group.

 

Replace: Knives of Artemis. Another villain group that just exists with no real purpose. I know they were starting to get more involved with the Dark Astoria plotline, but even then, they're little more than just "those mercenaries Malta hires sometimes." This could arguably be upgraded instead of replaced, but I just feel like they have so little relevance or presence in the game's story that they could easily be replaced by some other, more interesting group of all-female assassins.

 

Retire: Mooks. Why do these guys exist again?

[Sakura Tenshi]

You’re asking me what I would do as a dev? With carte blanche to alter enemy factions?! You fool! Now I will never shut up and you will all be doomed to bare witness to my TED talk essays on how I would like to update various factions!

 

but I am tired and need a nap so for now I’ll just give my personal priorities for enemy groups I feel need an update:

 

• The Legacy Chain: really needs to be a group that can go all the way to 50 and have plenty of good material to go with. Feels like live devs had plans but gave up half way through and decided to just sic villain players on circle of thorns instead.
• Wyvern: basically same reason as above: give villains more actual heroic groups to fight than just Longbow non-stop. No, Vanguard and Midnighters do not actually count.
• Sky Raiders: honestly wouldn’t even need too too much of an update, mostly just have human bosses instead of relying on Sky Skiffs and just generally flesh out their ranks and lore so they’re not just lapdogs to Nemesis or Praetoria. I like them conceptually because like the Freakshow they’re flexible in what stories you can drop them into.
• Freakshow: in theory the Freakalok ARE their update but Freakalok feel more like replacements/alternatives. Plus, for anarchist punks with makeshift cybernetics, they’re awfully uniform. I’d kind of want to expand their roster, namely by throwing in Pyro cyborgs and Toxic cyborgs as mentioned above, I kind of like the Freakshow since conceptually you can fit them in about everywhere.

 

edit: @GastlyGibus I think the KoA were effectively intended to be written out for the most part with the DA storyline. I mean it’s mentioned their ranks were basically wrecked or converted, and they were never supposed to be a big group to begin with. Which I felt was a shame: the group finally got some diversity and interesting stuff and it was just to kill them off.

Edited September 7, 2023 by Sakura Tenshi

[Andreah]

5 hours ago, Without_Pause said:

Updating the Council if for no other reason to stop making them the absolute cannon fodder of the end game. 

Fix caves, rescues, and illusionist intangibility, and I'd never have to run all-council missions again.

 

Council and Fifth Column are kind to too deep in their trope and occupy too much of the same niche. Have another war between them, and let one side (my preference would the the column) win and replace the other. Or, work on the mechanics of the two groups to make them more distinct. Then work their lore so they're now obviously pursuing very different and contradictory villainous goals.

[High_Beam]

To @GastlyGibus, the Family was clearly supposed to be the general organized crime family McGuffin like the real Mafia or Marvel's Maggia, but you are totally right about not having any real signature bosses.  With that said, the villain side content relating to the Family gives them a little more depth (Marcone, Verandi families) and of course Sebastian Frost.  But there are pieces of good Family lore and general "hidden hand" substance throughout including the Magic Man Arc from Sheldon and The Redemption of Alexander.  But yes, the could easily be upgraded in presence in stature in IP.

 

The Mooks if memory serves me right were like a lesser rival organized crime family that maybe had former members of the mainline family (Falcone I think).  Ben a while there.

 

To @Sakura Tenshi, the Sky Raiders really get a good deal of play especially in the Admiral Sutter Task Force.  CoV really upped their game with The Mantis SF and having the Sea Base.  Before that Terra Volta 1 or Striga all lame and having no good material.

 

Spoiler

Although I still don't get the logic of Primal Duray siding with Praetorian Duray considering he defected and took most of Vigilance with him because he didn't want a world where super powered individuals ran things.  Then again the same could be said about Roger Vrabel's Malta Group siding with capes in certain mission content, it contradicts their canon but whatever.

 

[Without_Pause]

Gang/Turf War TF with Family vs. Tsoo. You could even make a red and blue side versions which determine the outcome of the war. 

[GastlyGibus]

9 minutes ago, High_Beam said:

To @GastlyGibus, the Family was clearly supposed to be the general organized crime family McGuffin like the real Mafia or Marvel's Maggia, but you are totally right about not having any real signature bosses.  With that said, the villain side content relating to the Family gives them a little more depth (Marcone, Verandi families) and of course Sebastian Frost.  But there are pieces of good Family lore and general "hidden hand" substance throughout including the Magic Man Arc from Sheldon and The Redemption of Alexander.  But yes, the could easily be upgraded in presence in stature in IP.

 

My main issue with the Magic Man arc is that it isn't specifically to do with the Family. You could just as easily slap the Tsoo, the Warriors, or even the Sky Raiders into that role and it'd be pretty much the same. The Family's involvement in that arc is purely incidental. 

[High_Beam]

2 minutes ago, GastlyGibus said:

 

My main issue with the Magic Man arc is that it isn't specifically to do with the Family. You could just as easily slap the Tsoo, the Warriors, or even the Sky Raiders into that role and it'd be pretty much the same. The Family's involvement in that arc is purely incidental. 

Or is it 🙂

The Mano Nera is always scheming 🙂

 

[High_Beam]

7 minutes ago, Without_Pause said:

Gang/Turf War TF with Family vs. Tsoo. You could even make a red and blue side versions which determine the outcome of the war. 

 

[Psi-bolt]

Interesting topic.  For my part I would modify the following groups:

 

Nemesis - This group just never really made sense to me as a high level group.  It's just a paramilitary organization created to feed one man's ego.  I would see them disband as Nemesis begins his journey to become Mender Silos.  (is that really a spoiler at this point?) 

 

I would echo the changes folks would make to the Freaks and Warriors.  

 

But finally, there's one group that should be disbanded, imprisoned in the Zig, burned in a fire, etc.   And that the architects and interior designers of Paragon City.  Office maps alone justify their elimination with extreme prejudice.  😁

[UltraAlt]

2 hours ago, High_Beam said:

Trolls are just Superadine addicted idiots so why aren't there female addicts there?

 

Because there is no female "huge" body type?

That's my guess.

 

36 minutes ago, GastlyGibus said:

I really dislike the Family in this game, not because they're bad or difficult or anything, but because they just sort of... exist. They don't have any arch-villains or big bosses to fight

 

Per the wiki:

 

Elite Bosses

Emil Marcone

"Concrete" Bill

Steve "Mute" Mutombo
Enzo 'Export' Altieri

Ricky 'Grinder' Scaramanga

 

 

45 minutes ago, GastlyGibus said:

they have no story arcs dedicated to them

 

The Family are part of Stephanie Peeble's arc in Striga.

 

There is a good bit of Family content on the villain side are none of those story arcs?

 

 

 

 

[OmegaOne]

I really think some of the mid-level groups like the Tsoo, the Warriors and the Family could use some more stories attached to them. I mean the Warriors and Family are the heads of a couple of different criminal networks involving other enemy groups (The Smuggler's Run and the Supradine Connection respectively), with the Tsoo vying for the same territory in the city.

[FupDup]

Upgrade Malta. They acquired Battle Maiden and her nanomachines (son!) and I wanna see how that plot point pans out.