Let's Talk About the Holy Trinity

[Solarverse]

10 minutes ago, Spaghetti Betty said:

 Teams leave them pancake'd in seconds!

 

Literally.

[Snarky]

4 hours ago, macskull said:

That's because in an MMO context when someone says "holy trinity" they're almost certainly talking about tank/dps/heal.

 

why?

[honoroit]

I can simplify this!

 

 

 

scenario: group play x8

challenge level: reasonable - +0-+4

level: 20+

 

what's going to mess that up?

 - zero or very low sustain

 - very low dps, you might live, but its slow awful scraping

 

melee (well IOd) can be anything really, including a sentinel or blaster.  for extended exposure to melee, a scrapper/brute/tanker is bestest.  they help clump mobs, but are they necessary? arguably no.

 

so I'd say you've a 2 legged stool in CoH --> you need to kill things (dps), you need sustain (self provided, but across group really, you need something stopping death)

 

dps and heals.  tank optional, probably optimal.  but they don't take taunt anymore.

 

[Without_Pause]

10 hours ago, Solarverse said:

 

Hahaha, funny funny, lol.

However, I don't think anyone means "Healers" when they say "healers" but rather a character in which has powers with the capability to Heal. It's more of a Blanketed statement since we all already know that Healers can contribute to a team in so many more ways than just Heal.

Its insulting. More so for a game which includes FF, Sonic, and TA. Oh, you don't heal? You aren't wanted. Go play a real support set.

[Ulysses Dare]

10 hours ago, Solarverse said:

However, I don't think anyone means "Healers" when they say "healers" but rather a character in which has powers with the capability to Heal. It's more of a Blanketed statement since we all already know that Healers can contribute to a team in so many more ways than just Heal.

I have no idea what you think the difference between "Healer" and "healers" is but, as a practical matter, there is none. Either way, it's insulting because it reflects the old school trinity mindset that the character's only purpose is to heal and reinforces the idea that powersets without healing, like FF and TA, are subpar. 

 

Now, maybe you just never met any of those people but I can assure you they  exist. Back on live I was once kicked from a team the minute I zoned into Steel Canyon and the leader realized I was playing a Trick Arrow defender. I don't recall if they specifically said "you're not a healer" but they certainly made it clear my lack of a heal was the reason.

[Ignatz the Insane]

I remember many PUGs asking for either a 'healer' or a 'tank'.  Hell, one of the stickies here is "I need healing".   City of Heroes was more Tank, Heals, Holds, Damage as far as PUGs.  More of a Quadrinity.  Super Groups who experimented with different ATs, especially the Repeat Offenders, blew that playstyle to smithereens.   Stacking Buffs and Debuffs is and always has been the superior way of building teams in CoH.  Defenders and Corruptors in particular are such potent force multipliers.  

 

There were folks who realized the potential of force multiplier ATs.  And folks who wanted a Holy Trinity/Quadrinity.  My first 50 on live was a Force Field Defender, followed by a Dark Defender.  I definitely gravitated toward the former.  

 

 

 

 

[Parabola]

I remember back in the day joining a pug on a rad/something defender. I was promptly told by the team leader something to the effect of: 'couldn't find a real healer, you'll have to do, put your aura on auto and don't use any of your other pointless powers'. Ah, great days. *Wipes away a tear of misty eyed nostalgia*

[MoonSheep]

i think what OP is referring to with the view on “holy trinity” is that oldschool CoH required much more cooperation between support ATs, damage and tanky type characters

 

you’d often be very pleased to see a controller with ice slick or a rad to help buff and debuff. this would be complimented by a strong tank type lead to take the alpha, with blasters and scrappers ready to mash things up

 

this compares to modern HC CoH where the focus is primarily just on damage, as support ATs have less value

[Solarverse]

10 hours ago, Without_Pause said:

Its insulting. More so for a game which includes FF, Sonic, and TA. Oh, you don't heal? You aren't wanted. Go play a real support set.

 

Anyone who says that is obviously a noob, regardless of how long they have been playing the game. In the early days, Debuffs and Buffs were every bit as important as Heals.

[Solarverse]

9 hours ago, Ulysses Dare said:

I have no idea what you think the difference between "Healer" and "healers" is but, as a practical matter, there is none. Either way, it's insulting because it reflects the old school trinity mindset that the character's only purpose is to heal and reinforces the idea that powersets without healing, like FF and TA, are subpar. 

 

Now, maybe you just never met any of those people but I can assure you they  exist. Back on live I was once kicked from a team the minute I zoned into Steel Canyon and the leader realized I was playing a Trick Arrow defender. I don't recall if they specifically said "you're not a healer" but they certainly made it clear my lack of a heal was the reason.

 

The only reason I would kick a Defender back in those days was if I already had enough buffers/debuffers and the only thing I had left I was looking for was somebody who had the ability to heal in some type of way. Even then, I would do so with tact and kindness, not in some rude way.

As far as what I think the difference is, I meant exactly as I said it. This game anyone who can heal is a Healer, but my point was is that most people in this game knows that people with heals are so much more than just people who can heal. They can buff, debuff, use their secondaries and actually do some damage...that is what I meant by it.

[Solarverse]

3 hours ago, MoonSheep said:

i think what OP is referring to with the view on “holy trinity” is that oldschool CoH required much more cooperation between support ATs, damage and tanky type characters

 

you’d often be very pleased to see a controller with ice slick or a rad to help buff and debuff. this would be complimented by a strong tank type lead to take the alpha, with blasters and scrappers ready to mash things up

 

this compares to modern HC CoH where the focus is primarily just on damage, as support ATs have less value

 

This is EXACTLY what I mean. I thought I was very clear on this, but it would seem like I was not clear enough, because you are the only person to understand what I meant. Add to that the way people played that complimented each other's class instead of everyone for themselves. Today it's as if nobody gives a damn about anyone or anything but themselves. Back in the days of the old, there were a hell of a lot more players who played in unison to each other. I can explain that but I am really hoping I won't need to, heh. But yes, this is what I mean, thank you for understanding that.

[drbuzzard]

There's a whole lot of silly going on here. 

 

Did the game every require the 'holy trinity'? Not really. At low level? Sure, before you had slots and SOs (though a pure buff/debuff team was amazing from minimal level). Once you started getting to the 30s and you have your slots and SOs, then not at all. All tanker teams could crush everything. Scrappers could solo maps. All defender/controller teams were gods. 

 

Before GDI then ED, there were plenty of godly routes in the game (and there were traps as well, but that's why you had multiple slots for characters). Any memories of a time of the 'holy trinity' is just personal nostalgia about when a person didn't know how the game worked or didn't have the resources to build the optimal choices (and as it was simple back then, only influence and information were required). 

 

[ForeverLaxx]

On 9/24/2023 at 12:20 AM, Solarverse said:

Okay, I can see a lot of you aren't understanding what I am saying by Holy Trinity. Holy Trinity in this game goes beyond just Tank, Healer and DPS

It's easy to be right when you change the definition of a phrase to suit what you want it to mean instead of what it's commonly accepted to mean.

 

What was the point of this thread, then, when you're just going to do this?

[TheOtherTed]

Perhaps it would be better to call buff/debuffers and so-called healers "support" instead (even though that's a bit insulting as well).  Of course, your "trinity" would still really be a quaternity (tanks, controllers, support, and DPS), or maybe an omninerty (all roles and all ATs).  I posit, however, that you'd still be underestimating the importance of player skill (e.g., knowing one's own strengths and weaknesses, having situational awareness, etc.).  Having an optimal set of optimized powers is still at least a step removed from having an optimal team.

 

That said, optimal teams are overrated.  I've been on a couple, and I was bored out of my ever-loving skull.  Bailed at the first opportunity.  If that's the "ideal," I don't want it.  What I loved about teaming was that moment when the chaos of a handful of random heroes (or villains) suddenly gelled into a coherent fighting force as members of the team started to understand their own abilities in relation to that team's compostion.  Unfortunately, that usually didn't happen until a team wipe, but, hey, omelettes, eggs, etc.

 

What killed my interest in teaming?  Well, I'll tell ya - it was when we had a small influx of new players in the year or two before sunset who had "trinity" gameplay so firmly ensconced in their heads that they couldn't conceive of anything else.  It didn't make them better - it made them clueless, and it made them flat out reject any advice that went against it.  Just like I'd witnessed repeatedly in That One Overgrown Trinity Game, such teams would immediately fall apart when they encountered one bad pull or one seemingly insurmountable obstacle.  Kind of took the heroism out of heroes, and the dogged determination out of villains.

 

 

 

Edited September 25, 2023 by TheOtherTed
Sick at home on a Monday morning

[Solarverse]

1 minute ago, ForeverLaxx said:

It's easy to be right when you change the definition of a phrase to suit what you want it to mean instead of what it's commonly accepted to mean.

 

What was the point of this thread, then, when you're just going to do this?

 

Oh come on, don't pretend that this term has not been used in this way for years on these very forums. I used the term as it applies to City of Heroes. We aren't play WoW here, my man. Don't do that. I used the term exactly as I have seen it used on these forums countless times. Now all of a sudden when I use it, suddenly people want to pretend that it somehow means the same as it means in other games? I'm not buying it.

[TheOtherTed]

2 minutes ago, Solarverse said:

Oh come on, don't pretend that this term has not been used in this way for years on these very forums.

Show me.

[Solarverse]

Just now, TheOtherTed said:

Show me.

 

Nope, I'm not sifting through pages and pages of text to show you shit. But if you wish to have a look yourself, I'm sure you would not have to go any further than the Suggestion forums to find it.

[TheOtherTed]

1 minute ago, Solarverse said:

 

Nope, I'm not sifting through pages and pages of text to show you shit. But if you wish to have a look yourself, I'm sure you would not have to go any further than the Suggestion forums to find it.

I have no recollection of your specific definition of the trinity.  I suspect I'm not alone.  I have to assume that you're shifting goalposts unless and until you can supply evidence that your definition is the standard definition.

[Solarverse]

On 9/23/2023 at 12:54 PM, Solarverse said:

I for one (probably among the last of my kind still playing this game, since these days most players seem to be in favor of chaos over order) actually loved the Holy Trinity game play of this game, I loved it straight out of the box, it was right up my alley. It was not easy, it required team work, it required everyone know their class, it required...wait for it...Healers! I loved the structure and the cooperation this game once had. It was far less chaotic, you didn't have Blasters running off on their own soloing half the map, if they did, they would completely face plant and get yelled at by other team members. Blaster did not rush ahead of the Tank and aggro mobs without serious consequences. You didn't have Controllers locking down mobs before they could even move, that always ended up in dead Controllers, instead Controllers of those days timed their Immobilize, they waited for mobs to stack on the Tank and then they Immobilized the mobs. You had players who actually aimed their Knock Back to put mobs closer to the Tank or even knocked them back in to the Corner the Tank had them gathered in, which was helpful to the Tank, unlike today, instead we see mobs scatter all over the map.

 

Here, you wanted me to show you? All you had to do was read my damn original post. Right here...my very mention of Controllers shuts down the use of the Holy Trinity to represent only Tanks, Healers and DPS as it is used in other games. I clearly used it to represent what we have in this game and used the term to represent far more than just three classes.

[honoroit]

10 hours ago, Without_Pause said:

Its insulting. More so for a game which includes FF, Sonic, and TA. Oh, you don't heal? You aren't wanted. Go play a real support set.

 

think this only comes from the ill informed.

 

if you stop hits or mitigate damage 'somehow', it lets self sustain on party happen, i.e. they regen.

 

having said that, something like nature vs trick arrow - for sustain - leans nature.

[TheOtherTed]

1 minute ago, Solarverse said:

 

Here, you wanted me to show you? All you had to do was read my damn original post. Right here...my very mention of Controllers shuts down the use of the Holy Trinity to represent only Tanks, Healers and DPS as it is used in other games. I clearly used it to represent what we have in this game and used the term to represent far more than just three classes.

As I've said, you're describing a quaternity (which has 4 components), not a trinity (which only has three), and yes, I will happily pick nits about this.

 

In addition, you have yet to show that your quaternity guarantees a level of gameplay that cannot be achieved by, say, 8 Repeat Offenders or any other non-quaternity selection of ATs.

[Solarverse]

1 minute ago, TheOtherTed said:

As I've said, you're describing a quaternity (which has 4 components), not a trinity (which only has three), and yes, I will happily pick nits about this.

 

In addition, you have yet to show that your quaternity guarantees a level of gameplay that cannot be achieved by, say, 8 Repeat Offenders or any other non-quaternity selection of ATs.

 

Of course you will pick nits about it, it's about the only argument you have left.

More difficult mobs promotes that order of gameplay because more difficult mobs will have serious consequences to chaotic gameplay. That is your quaternity (since we are mincing words here) you are looking for. The game being more difficult promotes player to actually play with order. There is a reason you did not see chaotic gameplay very often in the early years of this game. The game becoming easier and easier (again, like I pointed out on the very first page, not sure how you missed it) promoted chaos, since the game became so damn easy across the board, even so much as the Devs making Hollows easy. The easier the game, the more chaotically people play. This can be seen in a mission as early as Frostfire on +4. Players who are used to playing like idiots, will run in and get themselves creamed...instantly. There is a consequence to playing the game chaotically. Suddenly, watch how the players either quit the team because they died...orrrrrr....suddenly players play with some order. They wait for the Tank to gain aggro before attacking, the Controllers wait until the mobs stack before they unleash their Immobs, Debuffers apply their debuffs once Tank has aggro either by Taunt, or by Area toggles that taunt. Suddenly it becomes no longer chaos, but order.

This is my point, it was my point on the very first page when I said, players who wanted the game easier has taken away from the players who enjoyed the game being a challenge. It did nothing but promote chaotic and selfish gameplay.

[drbuzzard]

The mythical harder game didn't exist anywhere but in your mind. 

[Solarverse]

15 minutes ago, drbuzzard said:

The mythical harder game didn't exist anywhere but in your mind. 

 

Bullshit. And let me ask you, how many levels higher were the mobs in the original Posi than your own level that you were playing as? It's as if I am trying to talk to people who's memories are only as long as their shoe size...I even gave examples as to how the game became easier. Everyone knows the game has been made easier, you seem to be the only person who denies it.

 

 

Edited September 25, 2023 by Solarverse

[drbuzzard]

5 minutes ago, Solarverse said:

 

Bullshit. And let me ask you, how many levels were the mobs in the original Posi than your own level that you were playing as? It's as if I am trying to talk to people who's memories are only as long as their shoe size...I even gave examples as to how the game became easier. Everyone knows the game has been made easier, you seem to be the only person who denies it.

 

Yes, at low level the game was hard. What a shock. You have minimal powers and no enhancements. Your build is barely started. 

 

As I said before, try the 30s. Back in the time you claim that things were hard, before GDN and ED, it wasn't hard if you had two clues to rub together. It's only easier now than then because IOs are so easy to get. Before the snap, it was harder even with IOs. 

 

Let me think back to the old days when it was 'hard'

 

Perma unstoppable. 

perma elude

burn +provoke = win 

Toggle IH

unlimited AOE target cap

unlimited aggro cap

unlimited debuff target cap

six slotted defenses (heck weave was 10% before GDN, CJ was 5%)

Six slotting hasten got you perma, not a lot of IO planning and expense

 

You could not actually set difficulty any higher than base. If you wanted things to be hard, you had to arrange teams carefully to make sure there was a level gap. Todays SK system is probably the only thing which is easier, and that can be compensated for with the difficulty settings. 

 

You cite Positron? Yeah, wonderful example picking the lowest level TF. Try a Manticore back in the day. It was a cakewalk. 

 

As for the trinity nonsense beyond low level take a stone or invulnerability tank, herd the whole damn map into one spot and then 7 blasters reduce everything to paste. Buff? Debuff? Control? Why? 

 

Fast forward to past GDN/ED then you go the Repeat Offender route and you blitz through the game without a care in the world. 

 

You might want to take a look at your own memory gaps before you cast aspersions.