MM Peeves...and Living with Them

[tidge]

I'm generally very happy with MMs; I didn't feel like cluttering the Suggestions subforum with minor annoyances that could all be in my head. Besides, we've gotten very good things on Homecoming like no-collision henchmen! I simply felt like  spelling out a small number of things with MMs that grind my gears. Share your thoughts and tips for dealing with them!

 

The delay between summoning a (set of) henchmen and the ability to cast the upgrades on them.

 

This is most evident when in the heat of combat; I find it particularly annoying when an enemy AV/GM can hit a newly spawned henchman before I can get a resistance/defense upgrade/equipment on them! I used to try to mitigate this with specialty names of the henchmen and keybinds for targeting, but I gave those up as I couldn't recall them if I wasn't playing the MM regularly.

 

The near-random inability for Inspirations to 'stick' to henchmen.

 

I used to attribute this problem 100% to "not being close enough" to the henchmen, now I attribute 98% to it. Some fraction of the time when the MM clicks on an Inspiration, the insp will 'vanish' from the UI, and then re-appear (not having been used) so I think there is some server lag as well. Other times I think there is enough of a discrepancy in positioning of the henchmen between local and server that may be contributing. What is weird: I rarely have this problem with the Lore pets, it usually happens when I try to put a Red Insp on my T3.

 

Travel paths/getting stuck/not-moving.

 

This is a classic problem... but it is one that seems to be exaggerated with Group Fly. It is really annoying to be on a GM hunt and discover that one of the henchmen is somewhere else in the zone, chilling out. I usually just dismiss the henchmen, but will also use Assemble the Team.

 

The 'pop' of only one henchmen, leading to its instant defeat.

 

This one is on me, when I outrun the henchmen while traveling. Usually only one or two instantly appear by my side against a tough enemy... as a reward for their willingness to stay by the boss, they are quickly eliminated (by AoE or Bodyguard mode).

[arcane]

My biggest pet peeve is when some guy on my discord has the balls to bring a Mastermind to the team.

[tidge]

51 minutes ago, arcane said:

My biggest pet peeve is when some guy on my discord has the balls to bring a Mastermind to the team.

 

 I very rarely team-up when playing MMs... from memory, the only time I actually got complimented as a member of a TF was on (new) Positron 1/2:

• Positron 1, final mission, after someone decides to spawn the ambushes: "How are you still not dead?" (not sure if this was a compliment or side-eye)
• Positron 2, final mission (interior) after someone picks up that the henchmen are being sent in to the spawns to absorb the alpha strikes that the team otherwise cannot handle.

I will help out with an MM when someone cries out they are having trouble with an AV.

 

I never mind PUGing with a MM... mission entries and exits can get a little busy but that's no big deal.

[Hedgefund]

I could certainly fill a long list for this, my favorite AT despite these frustrations.

 

I'm just going to pick one right now that drives me batty -

 

Minion passivity after entering a new door, like an elevator.  What immediately comes to mind is the jailbreak on mayhems.  When you click the elevator to go to the level with the prisoner, you get whaled on while the pets just sit there, for what, 5+ seconds.  Those 5 seconds are eternity at that point if you have a +3 PPD boss hitting you with his -def attacks.  Most of the time when you go through an elevator in a normal mission you have enough time for minions to re-engage, but not always.  Yes I can give attack orders but that takes me out of BG which I want to keep in that scenario.

 

Oh here's a bonus one - when a teammate assembles and you have the tp prompt on and decline, the minions still get ported and then come back.  

Edited September 28, 2023 by Hedgefund

[Gobbledigook]

If they could copy the buffs of the other Henchmen that are still alive to the new resummoned Henchmen would be good. It is annoying and time consuming having to spend time rebuffing a pet if it dies. If all the pets are dead then you would need a complete rebuff. Summoning pets in battle with no buffs quite often leads to dead pets and resummoning yet again.

 

Getting stuck is an obvious problem. knockback is a problem also and the pets should get KB bonuses from IO sets like the MM does.

 

The catch up run speed of Henchmen is rather slow at times, some sets are better though. Speeding that up a little may help to mitigate the getting stuck problem a little. Or a clicky summon to your side if they are not in combat may be good.

 

 

[GM Crumpet]

I play MM's a lot and they are my favourite AT.

 

My pet peeve is during Tinpex and you are on the last mission with bobcat and Neuron and your pets won't arrive so you dismiss them and they won't spawn. The workaround is to dismiss them before you enter, but if you forget you, are a petless mastermind with sub par attacks until the game decides to grudgingly allow your pets to appear. Even team TP or individual TP won't work.

 

Apart from that, I see some valid points and some not so valid points. I've personally never been refused a team or been on a team where the MM appears and the leader kicks them for being a MM. That's just rude. A well slotted MM is a thing of beauty. You don't know if the tanker or blaster is half as well slotted. MM's can send their pets in and run away, very fast. The other day I was the only survivor on a team wipe and I legged it while my pets fought to team TP and regroup. If you don't mind the pets dying it's a perfectly sensible strategy to send them in and take the alpha strike before the rest of the team takes over.

 

[Uun]

I only have 2 MMs, Beast/Traps and Thugs/Elec. Beasts are pretty good about attacking while in defensive mode if I shoot at something. Not sure if this is due to the Pack Mentality mechanic. Thugs on the other hand seem to sit around reading magazines in defensive mode. Unless something is directly attacking them, they ignore that I'm in combat. I'm constantly having to switch out of BG mode to get them to engage. They also seem to lose focus on foes that have had their end drained and are unable to attack unless I tell them to attack my target.

 

I agree that the lag between summoning and being able to upgrade is very annoying.

[StrikerFox]

Biggest peeve is their movement speed. Pretty slow, barely getting attacks when on a fast moving team. Pets got my back, waaaaay back. "Let's get 'em, guys! Charge!... Guys? Guys?!"

[kelika2]

On 9/27/2023 at 5:47 PM, GM Crumpet said:

My pet peeve is during Tinpex and you are on the last mission with bobcat and Neuron and your pets won't arrive so you dismiss them and they won't spawn. The workaround is to dismiss them before you enter, but if you forget you, are a petless mastermind with sub par attacks until the game decides to grudgingly allow your pets to appear. Even team TP or individual TP won't work.

even /releasepets does not work?

right click and dismiss is different from /releasepets

[kelika2]

necro:

zombies do not have a bite attack, yes i realize thats a new animation but still

lich still does not have damage on its gaze and stare

small arcs on zombie vomit

 

mercs:

5 degree arc cones

long recharge on spec ops cc abilities

 

beast mastery:

lack of aoe.  give wolves a piercing howl and cats a deafening roar.  i think we all had enough of their dumb little standing strait up kitty paw begging for a treat animation

 

ninjas:

pseudo pets created by player pets disappear when the target they anchored them on dies.  caltrops and rain of fire suffers a lot because of this

 

bots:

endurance reduction in bots does not seem to work anymore.  before last years patch slotting end reduction in pets reduced their endurance spending

assault bots non-fire missiles still cause knockback

 

thugs:

enforcers leadership has a small range, leaves the bruiser and gang war out in the cold

molotov has a small radius

 

demons:

prince has two abilities that do no damage, shiver and chilling embrace

 

universal:

when an enemy self rezzes all mastermind pets will refuse to forget about it.  If you are on yin and slaughter the two groups outside the police station, then go in the police station they will go back through the door to chase said self rezzer down, go near it, THEN go back to the mastermind.

slow pets.  even beasts and ninjas cannot keep up on some teams

pets sometimes bug out and become 100% unresponsive when taking elevators sometimes.

teleport target does not work if the pet is mid-air.  so if they get stuck on a loop trying to hurdle an aluminimlimuium soda can you cannot pull them off while they are jumping

knockback absolutely nullifies my masterminds.  one earthquake can chain knockdown any pet

rain powers make pets go nuts.  still cant do most of first ward, knives or silver mantis

 

and yeah, /releasepets does solve most of the universal stuff.

[GM Crumpet]

7 hours ago, kelika2 said:

even /releasepets does not work?

right click and dismiss is different from /releasepets

I always forget that command 🙂 

[High_Beam]

I have Mercs, Demons, Zombies and Thugs and yes, my biggest pet peeve is how effing slow they are.  I was on the Thugs yesterday, just running down the road in Founders Falls with Sprint and Athletic Run (no SS or Fly).  Stopped and prepared to hit a mob but saw the indications that they weren't close (they were not receiving leadership buffs).  Turned back and they were essentially a mile away, but not enough to leapfrog spawn.  And I was wearing three inch Stiletto combat boots!  WTF Boys!  Zombies are supposed to be slow and shambling but they decided to break Romero Canon there and made them fast enough to run the freaking Marine Corps Marathon but still not fast enough to catch someone who does not follow Rule #1.

 

Second of course is pathing hang.  Of course they get caught on every stairway, gantry, catwalk, door jamb, or freaking bush.  Where is my Arsonist?  Oh the is still trying to figure out how to jump down to the ground floor from the shelf of crates he jumped on.  Sorry boss, was just making sure there wasn't a Hellion hiding inside a box.  "You are killing me Tara!"

[tidge]

On 9/27/2023 at 10:13 AM, tidge said:

The near-random inability for Inspirations to 'stick' to henchmen.

 

I used to attribute this problem 100% to "not being close enough" to the henchmen, now I attribute 98% to it. Some fraction of the time when the MM clicks on an Inspiration, the insp will 'vanish' from the UI, and then re-appear (not having been used) so I think there is some server lag as well. Other times I think there is enough of a discrepancy in positioning of the henchmen between local and server that may be contributing. What is weird: I rarely have this problem with the Lore pets, it usually happens when I try to put a Red Insp on my T3.

 

I've been experimenting with this problem. Since I almost always have the problem with the T3 (upgraded) henchman, I am starting to believe it is because (after the upgrade) it is almost always attacking... and so I think the game isn't allowing the asynchronous drag of the Inspiration from my (the player's) tray to the henchman to 'stick' because the hench is either attacking or has a queued attack at the server. I rarely see this issue with henchmen/pets that have fewer attacks.

 

I have had more luck dragging the inspiration to the T3 when it is in 'idle' mode, such as when having the henchmen go to 'follow' bringing them in close before they start to recognize targets.

[WumpusRat]

On 9/27/2023 at 10:39 AM, Hedgefund said:

Yes I can give attack orders but that takes me out of BG which I want to keep in that scenario.

This is where specific attack commands come into play.

 

For instance, you can order SPECIFIC henchmen to attack, while keeping the others in bodyguard mode. I generally keep the tier-1's in bodyguard mode and order the tier-2 and 3 to attack in this case, as it keeps enough of them in bodyguard mode to split the damage effectively, and the tier-2 and 3 tend to deal the most damage.

/macro T3at "petcom_pow Commando attack" (for instance)

That will make your commando start immediately attacking the chosen enemy, while the rest of your pets remain in bodyguard mode.

You can set up others for the other tiers of pets, and make them selectively engage various targets. It's useful to try and focus-fire one or two pets onto an enemy to attempt to peel them off of you.

 

I use specific-command frequently when I'm playing mercenaries, as the spec-ops gain a 150ft range sniper attack with the tactical upgrade. You can order just them to attack from long range, and they'll engage with snipe. Then immediately pull them back into defensive-follow so they won't try to move closer to continue attacking. You can do this to pull and split spawns, or just try to pick off stragglers.

 

You can also order pets by specific name (petcom_name <petname> <command>) if you don't want to order all the pets of a particular type to do something, or want to order just one (such as the mercenary medic or thug pyro) to hold back from attacking.

[Clave Dark 5]

On 9/27/2023 at 8:13 AM, tidge said:

The delay between summoning a (set of) henchmen and the ability to cast the upgrades on them.

This.  MMs are unique in that as they take damage (and thus lose pets) they become less effective, they can't do as much damage.  The time it takes to summon pets, set their stances, then pop not one but two upgrades on them (and any buffs like say bubbles) is a real drawback.  I like MMs a lot until things start going south for me, then I feel like I'm being held back more than any other toon.  Maybe MMs need some sort of damage consolidation where your fewer pets still do the same damage, so like a ramping up of damage for having fewer pets out to equal if you did?  That would certainly make semi-petless MMs happy ha ha.

 

And speaking of, I just leveled up a semi-petless to 50 via PUGs, and never once had anyone question me or my choices, or even comment when I made a self-deprecating joke or two about it.

Edited October 8, 2023 by Clave Dark 5

[Gobbledigook]

On 9/27/2023 at 3:13 PM, tidge said:

The delay between summoning a (set of) henchmen and the ability to cast the upgrades on them.

 If the pet upgrades were auto and  cast when the pets were summoned would be a big improvement.

 

An out of combat speed increase or summon to your side via a click would help a lot also. A Click summon would help with pet pathing issues also.

 

I would give them a little better AoE damage also. 

 

Pet levels also.

[WumpusRat]

44 minutes ago, Gobbledigook said:

 If the pet upgrades were auto and  cast when the pets were summoned would be a big improvement.

I would be very leery of doing something like this. Given that MMs on HC get a MASSIVE reduction in recharge on the pet summoning abilities, the ability to just churn out fully-upgraded pets when you start losing them would be a bit imbalanced. I've had plenty of fights where I can just keep throwing out pets in tough fights that eventually the constant replacement of them ends up tilting the odds in my favor and I win. And that's without them being upgraded, as I'm too busy trying to just get more pets into the fight. If they popped out fully upgraded it would be way too easy. I believe the devs have stated before that they have zero intention of auto-upgrades for pets.

 

I do agree that they need a bit more run-speed though. Maybe let +movement bonuses affect the pets, too, since a lot of times I'll end up with like +30-40% runspeed, which puts me pretty far out ahead of my pets. 

[kelika2]

On 9/30/2023 at 5:54 AM, kelika2 said:

ninjas:

pseudo pets created by player pets disappear when the target they anchored them on dies.  caltrops and rain of fire suffers a lot because of this

I am just now noticing that the -resist rain created by the support banished pantheon lore pet also does this

[Lancek]

Having to waste Pet slots on the Resistance/Defense Io's, I wish you could shove them in the upgrade Powers.

[evetsleep]

On 9/27/2023 at 5:47 PM, GM Crumpet said:

 If you don't mind the pets dying it's a perfectly sensible strategy to send them in and take the alpha strike before the rest of the team takes over.

 

 

As someone whose been here a long time and has just about every MM combo, this was the thing that made my MM life so much easier once I came to terms with "letting them die" after the QoL pass on MM's.  It breathed new life into my play style that includes letting my cardboard dragons (previously paper dragons) of Genin die so I could just resummon them.  I spend far less effort protecting my pets (especially the T1's) and it's allowed me to play a much more aggressive MM.

 

Probably my favorite update change.

Edited October 11, 2023 by evetsleep

[tidge]

5 hours ago, evetsleep said:

 

As someone whose been here a long time and has just about every MM combo, this was the thing that made my MM life so much easier once I came to terms with "letting them die" after the QoL pass on MM's.  It breathed new life into my play style that includes letting my cardboard dragons (previously paper dragons) of Genin die so I could just resummon them.  I spend far less effort protecting my pets (especially the T1's) and it's allowed me to play a much more aggressive MM.

 

This sentiment is basically why I am comfortable with no longer including a MM secondary like Dark in my stable: On Live, I felt that AoE healing the henchmen was somewhat game-changing. I don't feel that way on Homecoming.

[tidge]

Here is a MM peeve I can't believe I forgot to include:

 

Henchmen getting in the way of clicking on doors/contact/objectives. This is especially annoying in places where there is a tightly constrained clickable area. I think I use the "goto" function more often in Ouroborous and Hazard Zone gates more than any other situations.

[bellona100]

On 9/27/2023 at 10:13 AM, tidge said:

The near-random inability for Inspirations to 'stick' to henchmen.

 

I used to attribute this problem 100% to "not being close enough" to the henchmen, now I attribute 98% to it. Some fraction of the time when the MM clicks on an Inspiration, the insp will 'vanish' from the UI, and then re-appear (not having been used) so I think there is some server lag as well. Other times I think there is enough of a discrepancy in positioning of the henchmen between local and server that may be contributing. What is weird: I rarely have this problem with the Lore pets, it usually happens when I try to put a Red Insp on my T3.

Try taking the inspiration and holding it over the henchmen's health bar for a second before dropping it onto the UI.   You know, the window that lists the henchmen and their buffs.

 

I suggest using the team inspirations instead of the small ones.  In fact, I would goto the Pay-to-win vendor in Atlas and just turn 'off' receiving small inspirations.

[tidge]

40 minutes ago, bellona100 said:

Try taking the inspiration and holding it over the henchmen's health bar for a second before dropping it onto the UI.   You know, the window that lists the henchmen and their buffs.

 

This is how I prefer to do it (so I don't accidentally "buff" something like the FFG or Maintenance drone. If you keep reading the thread, I think I figured out what the cause it, and have a suggested work around. It's pretty much exclusive to the T3 henchman on my Robotics MM.

[StrawberryWitch]

I honestly hate how slow the henchmen are following you. Most of the time in a team, by the time my babies arrive in the fight, the bad guys are already dead. Also hate that I have to take group fly just for my minions to catch up to me or fly with me when I'm flying.