Joined Powers

[dragonhawk777]

On one of the other private servers they implemented some new power set options.  They have joined various powers into a giant set.  So for primary you could have both fire and ice in one power set.  The same for secondaries so you could have like fire and regen in one big set.  They dont see a balance issue due to the fact that you dont expand how often you can acquire powers..  So while you have access to both fire powers and ice powers you can still only take 49 powers.  So if you took all the fire and ice powers you wouldnt be able to take many secondaries or epic powers.  Is this something that could be done on the Homecoming servers?

[SwitchFade]

No vote, sorry.

[Rudra]

On the one hand, I did enjoy making freeform characters on CO and hated the preset ATs. On the other hand, at least CO had controls in place so you couldn't just take all the best powers from the different sets and the OP doesn't say there would be any controls to prevent that from happening. So did that other server have controls to limit character power choices or were there characters running around with umpteen million (intentional exaggeration) nukes?

[dragonhawk777]

11 minutes ago, Rudra said:

On the one hand, I did enjoy making freeform characters on CO and hated the preset ATs. On the other hand, at least CO had controls in place so you couldn't just take all the best powers from the different sets and the OP doesn't say there would be any controls to prevent that from happening. So did that other server have controls to limit character power choices or were there characters running around with umpteen million (intentional exaggeration) nukes?

To my knowledge they did not, other than the devs on that server pick which power sets they are combining.  So the player isnt able to just choose any four power sets.  The devs have setup joint power set choices when you scroll through the power sets associated with an archtype.  So if they did not put Fire and AR together in the blaster power sets then you could not make a Fire/AR primary blaster.  However it has been my experience that there arent really any op powers in the game.  Yes there certainly are powers that are considered to be better than others, but I not encountered any that would make any that would make any set overpowered.  The amount of cooldown reduction you can get from enhancement sets pretty much already allows you to just cycle between the top 2-3 powers in a power set already, making weaker powers just an occasional filler in a rotation.  If there happens to be a set that has a power that if it were combined with another set then they could just not put those two sets together.

[Rudra]

10 minutes ago, dragonhawk777 said:

To my knowledge they did not, other than the devs on that server pick which power sets they are combining.  So the player isnt able to just choose any four power sets.  The devs have setup joint power set choices when you scroll through the power sets associated with an archtype.  So if they did not put Fire and AR together in the blaster power sets then you could not make a Fire/AR primary blaster.  However it has been my experience that there arent really any op powers in the game.  Yes there certainly are powers that are considered to be better than others, but I not encountered any that would make any that would make any set overpowered.  The amount of cooldown reduction you can get from enhancement sets pretty much already allows you to just cycle between the top 2-3 powers in a power set already, making weaker powers just an occasional filler in a rotation.  If there happens to be a set that has a power that if it were combined with another set then they could just not put those two sets together.

Then I am against the OP. Yes, the amount of cooldown players can already stack lets us cycle the same three powers, but cycling the same three powers isn't the same as cycling the same three nukes. To be clear, I do not and have never cared what the other servers do. However, there are things the other servers do that I do not want on this server. Let those that want to play with those options play with those options on those servers.

[Saiyajinzoningen]

this is a slippery slope that would give players lots and lots more options but it would screw up the balance of the game.

If it were implemented I'm not sure it would be "city of heroes" anymore

 

[dragonhawk777]

5 hours ago, Saiyajinzoningen said:

this is a slippery slope that would give players lots and lots more options but it would screw up the balance of the game.

If it were implemented I'm not sure it would be "city of heroes" anymore

 

I am not seeing much of a balance issue, particularly since pvp is such a small part of what players do in COH.  The only issue I see could possibly be the ranged nukes, though since they were changed I dont think even they are a real issue.  If though they were you could always code them so that a player could only take one of the nukes while having access to all the lower tier powers.  Melee doesnt seem to have any sort of tier 9 abilities like the nukes so I dont see an issue there.  Defensive powers I dont see anyone taking the tier 9 there as IOs usually cap out either defense or resistance.  No real experience with pets like the MM have but if there is an issue with their top pets then they could be locked out also so you could only have 1.

 

I see defensive powers giving players the best options, as it would allow players with defense based sets to also get a heal or buff up resistances some.  There are some instances where defense based power sets are at a real disadvantage (eg Chrimera) and since defense sets quite often dont have a heal or high resistances they become fairly squishy.  Overall I find the potential player options and gap filling far outweighs potential balance issues, which seem to have an easy fix of locking out duals of certain powers/tiers.

[Jiro Ito]

For sure, give me a stone armor/radiation armor tank all day!

 

Seriously though, i think balancing this would be a nightmare, ie, if you have this snipe you can't take any other snipe, if you have this rain aoe you can't have any other rain aoe, etc.  It'd be a lot of fun to smack an enemy with a fire sword, then an ice sword, then a psy sword, then a sword-sword, then TWO swords, but it sounds like a lot of work and unbalanced.

 

Defender with cold shields and sonic shields and force fields and thermal shields...fun to think about though...

[Saiyajinzoningen]

31 minutes ago, dragonhawk777 said:

I find the potential player options and gap filling far outweighs potential balance issues, which seem to have an easy fix of locking out duals of certain powers/tiers.

 

The Gaps are intentional.

Every hero has a weakness. 
this is the balance

eliminating them would make everyone far stronger than they are now

I have tried those servers that allow free mode power choice

while its very neat the characters are overwhelmingly strong

so strong, combat loses all meaning.

Games are boring when they are too easy

and frustrating when they are too difficult.

when the balance is found, so is fun.

 

11 hours ago, Rudra said:

On the one hand, I did enjoy making freeform characters on CO and hated the preset ATs. On the other hand, at least CO had controls in place so you couldn't just take all the best powers from the different sets and the OP doesn't say there would be any controls to prevent that from happening. So did that other server have controls to limit character power choices or were there characters running around with umpteen million (intentional exaggeration) nukes?

 

yeah you could take all the nukes lol

 

tbh this sounds like a coding nightmare

it would be easier to expand the epic power pool selection I think

 

[dragonhawk777]

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Posted 2 hours ago

3 hours ago, dragonhawk777 said:

I find the potential player options and gap filling far outweighs potential balance issues, which seem to have an easy fix of locking out duals of certain powers/tiers.

 

The Gaps are intentional.

Every hero has a weakness. 
this is the balance

eliminating them would make everyone far stronger than they are now

I have tried those servers that allow free mode power choice

while its very neat the characters are overwhelmingly strong

so strong, combat loses all meaning.

Games are boring when they are too easy

and frustrating when they are too difficult.

when the balance is found, so is fun

Except that the game and instances arent balanced.  There not any TFs where resistance does not provide sufficient mitigation that the power sets built in heal cannot keep up with the damage, except maybe Hammi.  It is why the vast majority of tanks and brutes are not things lke ice, shield, sr,...  They are just a bigger pain to use in higher end instances, unless you have a dedicated healer watching you, but since the majority of instance runs are pugs that is not a guarantee you will get one who knows you will need extra care.  It hardly seems balanced when an invulnerable, fire, or rad tank can a lvl 50 tf easy mode, but a shield tank has to worry if the team has a healer who knows enough to stay close to him.

 

Also I wouldnt call what Purgatory is doing or what I proposed is free mode power choice.  The devs are choosing which 2 existing power sets they are putting together and you are only getting the powers within those two sets.  So you could not take a tray full of nukes as a blaster, and at most you would get two nukes,  I also have doubts that getting to choose between the powers of two power sets would make things too easy.  The game was never hard to begin with, as evidence by the number of people who post builds that allow blasters to solo Chrimera on +4.  So which power combinations would screw up the existing balance within the game?

[Rudra]

32 minutes ago, dragonhawk777 said:

Except that the game and instances arent balanced.  There not any TFs where resistance does not provide sufficient mitigation that the power sets built in heal cannot keep up with the damage, except maybe Hammi.  It is why the vast majority of tanks and brutes are not things lke ice, shield, sr,...  They are just a bigger pain to use in higher end instances, unless you have a dedicated healer watching you, but since the majority of instance runs are pugs that is not a guarantee you will get one who knows you will need extra care.  It hardly seems balanced when an invulnerable, fire, or rad tank can a lvl 50 tf easy mode, but a shield tank has to worry if the team has a healer who knows enough to stay close to him.

 

Also I wouldnt call what Purgatory is doing or what I proposed is free mode power choice.  The devs are choosing which 2 existing power sets they are putting together and you are only getting the powers within those two sets.  So you could not take a tray full of nukes as a blaster, and at most you would get two nukes,  I also have doubts that getting to choose between the powers of two power sets would make things too easy.  The game was never hard to begin with, as evidence by the number of people who post builds that allow blasters to solo Chrimera on +4.  So which power combinations would screw up the existing balance within the game?

And here is the issue I have with this statement. If you think the game is already easy, then why are you asking to make it even easier? Even if only the primaries are combined, for Tankers that means they get access to 2 armor sets. For Blasters, that means they get access to 2 blast sets. And even having access to "just" 2 nukes, not counting incarnate powers, is way overkill. We already have players that refuse to play content below level 47 because they lose access to their boosted enhancements or level 45 because they lose access to their incarnate powers. We already have players that build to fire their nukes as often as they can get the recharge down to, and now they would have access to 2 nukes (and a Judgement). No. If there are not power acquisition limits preventing the player from just taking the most powerful abilities from 4, 3, or even "just" 2 sets, I am very opposed to the idea. Now if you had to have the T1 or T2 power, the T3 or T4 power, the T5 power, the T6 power, the T7 power, and the T8 power to get the T9 power? Okay, fine. That would at least require players to still plan their characters to at least some extent. If that is not to be implemented? Then a single power set only. And new power sets that cross different themes can be proposed.

[dragonhawk777]

I already stated that if there is a power such as the blaster nukes which would be unbalanced with having two then you could restrict tier 9 powers to choosing just one of them..  So if it was a Fire/Ice primary the player would have to choose Inferno or Blizzard and once he did then he would be locked out from the other.  Having access to other powers within the two sets is more of theme building rather than making an op character.  Most of your blaster powers are pretty homoginized as far as damage output goes.  Some like AR have issues due to the damage type they do and animation times, but overall most of the ranged attacks come down more to wanting either a bit more control (ice) or aoe (fire. water).  So for most ranged dps sets I dont see a real issue.

 

As for armor sets, if you are doing resistance sets then again its more of a theme, as most resistance sets allow you to cap any of the damage types you are very likely to encounter in a tf.  For other armor types, as i pointed out in the post you are quoting defense based sets are at an overall disadvantage vs resistance sets.  It is not uncommon to run into enemies in the higher end tfs that do some kind of defense debuff., rendering defense sets at a bigger disadvantage than resistance sets.  So access to a defense based set and a set like willpower or rad would even the playing field with resistance based tanks.

 

As for game difficulty.  I am all in favor of the devs making level 50 versions of every tf in the game and scaling the difficulty so that they are a challenge to those with IO and incarnate powers.  While I dont restrict myself to just upper level tfs, I do understand players not wanting to lose access to abilities they enjoy and worked to acquire.  I would also like to see all the missions scale to whatever level you are also, so that they can be fun to do.  Even if you dont pl a toon you wind up outleveling zones long before you finish all the storyline missions in that zone.  I dont feel the answer is to make players go backwards, but rather give players options and advance the content for these at the level cap.

 

As for new sets that took powers from two previous sets, that would be an improvement but I think it would be a bigger headache for the devs.  I am betting you would a bunch of requests for why did they chose power 3 from set A and not power 3 from set B.  It would likely be easier to identify problematic powers and just restrict them to a one or the other.

[InvaderStych]

Setting aside the issues of wildly over-powered toons that could be created by picking/choosing even from just a pair of sets, there is a [Standard Code Rant] issue that hasn't been mentioned.

 

If someone combines powers from Street Justice and Dual Blades, then there are two different combo systems that would have to be written to interact with each other - or at least to not conflict.  Combining Psi Melee and Savage leads to a similar problem with Insight and Blood Frenzy (stacks). If someone takes Dual Pistols and Assault Rifle powers, does the ammo choice for DP apply to the AR attacks. Armor sets have similar issues - Bio Armor's adaptations, for example, how would they interact if someone takes Bio armor powers with Shield Defense powers? Even if those are restricted to only affect powers from the original set, there could still be [Standard Code Rant] issues if the two sets are invoking the same kFlags or other attributes to do different things within their respective set.

 

Dropping the mechanics from the sets doesn't seem worth doing, and also invokes [Standard Code Rant] as well.

 

Kudos to the other server for putting something like this together, but I don't see it fitting the vision for Homecoming and the devs have plenty on their hands that does fit the vision around these parts.

[Rudra]

44 minutes ago, dragonhawk777 said:

I already stated that if there is a power such as the blaster nukes which would be unbalanced with having two then you could restrict tier 9 powers to choosing just one of them..  So if it was a Fire/Ice primary the player would have to choose Inferno or Blizzard and once he did then he would be locked out from the other. 

The devs also said they will never do that ever again because of how problematic it was doing that for Master Brawler/Practiced Brawler for the Sentinel. (Which is probably why that other server just said go ahead and take whatever powers you want from the joined sets.)

 

44 minutes ago, dragonhawk777 said:

As for armor sets, if you are doing resistance sets then again its more of a theme, as most resistance sets allow you to cap any of the damage types you are very likely to encounter in a tf.  For other armor types, as i pointed out in the post you are quoting defense based sets are at an overall disadvantage vs resistance sets.  It is not uncommon to run into enemies in the higher end tfs that do some kind of defense debuff., rendering defense sets at a bigger disadvantage than resistance sets.  So access to a defense based set and a set like willpower or rad would even the playing field with resistance based tanks.

So your Tanker is now an Invulnerability/Super Reflexes/attack set with max resists across most damage types and very high defense, while retaining the most effective AoEs from their attack power set. Or an Invulnerability/Dark (or Fire or Radiation)/attack set with maxed resistances across the board, a sustained AoE damaging aura, and whatever most effective attack(s) the player can still squeeze in. (And as long as their actual resist is 100% or higher despite the 90% cap, they can't have their resists debuffed to make them sufficiently vulnerable to anything. Especially since Dark, Fire, and Radiation have their own heals or heal-like power.) So, again, no. (Edit again: The Tanker can take all 18 powers from their 2 armors, though they will most likely skip both T9s for 'only' 16 armor powers, and still have 6 slots (8 if they skip the T9s) for their attacks and pool powers. That is entirely too powerful. Especially after you factor in incarnate powers and the ability to slot more END reduction to manage all those toggles since it would take much less effort to cap your resists. Evening the playing field between defense sets and resist sets? This widens the gap since you could double up your resists to achieve max resist with less effort and better END management per power, and still get the defenses the resist sets can already achieve through set bonuses.)

 

44 minutes ago, dragonhawk777 said:

As for new sets that took powers from two previous sets, that would be an improvement but I think it would be a bigger headache for the devs.  I am betting you would a bunch of requests for why did they chose power 3 from set A and not power 3 from set B.  It would likely be easier to identify problematic powers and just restrict them to a one or the other.

I'm not saying we should ask for hybrid power sets that take choice powers from other sets. I'm saying we can ask for whole new power sets that are their own concept. Yes, that will take a LOT of work from the devs. No, we are not likely to see any of those sets anywhere in the near future even if the devs agree. However, at least in my opinion, that is way better than just throwing some sets together and letting players make characters that can now walk through Hard Mode content with little difficulty like we will likely see with your proposal.

 

 

44 minutes ago, dragonhawk777 said:

As for game difficulty.  I am all in favor of the devs making level 50 versions of every tf in the game and scaling the difficulty so that they are a challenge to those with IO and incarnate powers.  While I dont restrict myself to just upper level tfs, I do understand players not wanting to lose access to abilities they enjoy and worked to acquire.  I would also like to see all the missions scale to whatever level you are also, so that they can be fun to do.  Even if you dont pl a toon you wind up outleveling zones long before you finish all the storyline missions in that zone.  I dont feel the answer is to make players go backwards, but rather give players options and advance the content for these at the level cap.

This has been requested on multiple threads. Here's the problem: most lower level enemies do not scale. It is not just a question of combat level to keep up with the players. It is also a question of access to improved power choices for them. For instance, the Hellions. Back on Live, I believe the Hellions capped at level 10. Then they were scaled up to level 15. What was the difference between a level 1-10 Hellion and a level 11-15 Hellion? Molotov cocktails. Which hurt. A LOT. The Hellions actually became a threat, at least until you gained the powers or enhancements to laugh at their new power.

 

Edited December 8, 2023 by Rudra
Edited to change "across the board" to "across several damage types".

[biostem]

What they could do is create a variety of "elemental master" power sets that carefully curate which specific attacks are available at each tier/rank, then work in some sort of set mechanic that provides a bonus for either varying the elemental attacks or following up one attack with another of the same type, (or whatever they deem fitting).  In a way, storm blast already kind of does this, what with you being able to project winds, hail/ice, and lightning.  

[dragonhawk777]

1 hour ago, biostem said:

What they could do is create a variety of "elemental master" power sets that carefully curate which specific attacks are available at each tier/rank, then work in some sort of set mechanic that provides a bonus for either varying the elemental attacks or following up one attack with another of the same type, (or whatever they deem fitting).  In a way, storm blast already kind of does this, what with you being able to project winds, hail/ice, and lightning.  

I had thought of something along that line in the past, but that seems to be more of an epic archtype.  I would probably give it the name Omni-blaster and have two versions.  One would be elemental based so they would use the elemental based powers (eg fire, ice, water, electric) and electromagnetic (eg rad, power, electric,).  Was thinking the beams they generate are more universal as far as damage type goes, but the player would select the effect associated with it.  So fire leaves a dot, ice slows, electric drains stam,... when you get to that point where you have to make a choice in the spec it would be that you choose ranged or melee.  Ranged would throw in control abilities added in and melee would get some armor related power choices.  Both melee and ranged would have a mix of single target and aoe abilities to choose from.

 

Anyways that is the rough outline of the idea I had.  Elemental seemed the easier to add things to, but i think you could have more fun making an electromagnetic based one, as far a secondary effects go.

[Clave Dark 5]

Seems like a lot of work for little pay-out.  I mean, making new new-power sets is perhaps harder due to the lack of new animations, but just mixing a couple together doesn't seem exciting to me, really.  Subjective I suppose.

[FupDup]

I've thought of something like this for one new specific AT - A blend of melee, armor, and support sets, with each of those components being condensed down into like 6 or 7 powers each instead of the usual 9 (combining multiple powers together where possible, i.e. Empathy's recovery and regen auras become one aura or mixing S/L armor powers with E/N and/or F/C). And nobody mention Rebirth's Guardian please, I'm talking real melee (i.e. Battle Axe, War Mace, etc.) not assault and I'm talking real armor with stuff like Shield being available. 

 

Besides the probable coding nightmare that could be for just one AT, letting anybody do it could have some unforeseen consequences even if we did manage to make the code work. 

Edited December 9, 2023 by FupDup

[Wavicle]

Oh, this is much less interesting than what I thought it was going to be.

I would love to see some more INTERACTION between multiple PLAYERS powers, like the kind of thing we saw in that great One shot in the first Avengers movie, Iron Man bouncing lasers off Cap's shield and stuff.

THAT would be much cooler than freeform which was how this game was back in like the original Alpha testing, and it was gotten rid of because it was not good.

[Saiyajinzoningen]

4 hours ago, Wavicle said:

Oh, this is much less interesting than what I thought it was going to be.

I would love to see some more INTERACTION between multiple PLAYERS powers, like the kind of thing we saw in that great One shot in the first Avengers movie, Iron Man bouncing lasers off Cap's shield and stuff.

THAT would be much cooler than freeform which was how this game was back in like the original Alpha testing, and it was gotten rid of because it was not good.

 

oooh a power combo interaction effect?

for example:

 

Hitting a chilled foe with a fire attack would cause a knockup

hitting a foe with fire dots with ice would remove dots but have a mino -resist

hitting a foe with an energy blast that already had darkness effect would blind foes

hitting foe with a toxic dot with a radiation effect would cause vomiting

water and earth combos would cause -movement

sonic + time = disintegration effect 

 

these are just examples of course 

but could be an interesting new mechanic