Regarding: Radio Silence

[Videra]

Powers Devs, can we talk?

Every single open beta cycle seems to follow the same route. A new power-set is introduced, an old set is updated, what have you - and we have no idea what you actually want to do. You don't give us a straight-forward statement of intent, or explain your reasoning for making a change. I'll refer to Beanbag in Assault Rifle as an example. Players started yelling about it and relative silence ensued - until eventually discussion of aim being replaced with Beanbag was deemed 'off-topic'.

The same exact thing repeated with Arsenal Control. The set was dropped, feedback was given - and feedback was, broadly speaking, ignored. A staunch stance on not swapping powers was taken and then you completely altered the functionality of multiple powers. I'm not going to get into the whole 'Wet' week. I'll happily give you credit for taking a lot of Shin's ideas for Arsenal Control in build four, of course - that was good.

But that's the crux of what I'm reaching out about. Twenty two pages of feedback to a handful of developer responses. That on its own has been immensely frustrating, the complete radio silence between patches only compounds on that. Everyone giving feedback is passionate about your game, none of us are dunking on your work without basis.

So please, start a dialogue with us, give us statements of intent - actually communicate. The knowledgeable people in your community want to work with you to make sure sets, power changes, and major reworks are both strong and flavorful. Nobody wants to feel like they're yelling at an impenetrable wall, and in turn, I can't imagine any of you like feeling like we're dumping on your work.

Communicate with us, please. Let's not have another Beanbag Week or 'What is Wet?' week. It'll be easier for everyone involved.

Edited February 18 by Videra

[Shin Magmus]

     I'd love any new about the devs addressing the 50 or so bugs we've reported since this post, including but not limited to: Absorb powers not stacking correctly, Wet text remaining in-game and confusing new players, multiple ATO procs (especially Brute) being erroneously affected by the Purple Patch and causing their self-granted values to be lower than intended vs higher level enemies, etc.  I literally see no valid reason why a bugfix patch can't come out ahead of the next content patch.  Making the game work correctly > adding shiny new things.  Where's that communication?

[arcane]

Just because all of your boyfriend’s ideas weren’t implemented doesn’t mean *any* feedback was “ignored”. We certainly won’t avoid any drama in the next round of beta testing if you’re going to cling to false narratives.

[PeregrineFalcon]

25 minutes ago, arcane said:

Just because all of your boyfriend’s ideas weren’t implemented doesn’t mean *any* feedback was “ignored”.

ig·nore

/iɡˈnôr/

verb

refuse to take notice of or acknowledge; disregard intentionally.

"he ignored her outraged question"

 

 

If someone posts tons of feedback and never gets a response then how is that NOT being ignored when it's the literal dictionary definition of the word?

[arcane]

13 minutes ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

ig·nore

/iɡˈnôr/

verb

refuse to take notice of or acknowledge; disregard intentionally.

"he ignored her outraged question"

 

 

If someone posts tons of feedback and never gets a response then how is that NOT being ignored when it's the literal dictionary definition of the word?

Lack of response doesn’t mean the feedback was ignored. Re-read the dictionary definition. Never reading and considering the feedback means it was ignored, and we have no evidence that’s been happening.

 

If the devs were obligated to respond to each and every comment, it would be a tremendous waste of their time, especially when taking into account how many posters were bringing up the same feedback over and over in spite of it being shot down already.

Edited June 6 by arcane

[Vanden]

Explaining the reasoning behind changes is probably just going to change the feedback from “tell us why you did this” to “here’s why you’re wrong to do this.”

[PeregrineFalcon]

33 minutes ago, arcane said:

Lack of response doesn’t mean the feedback was ignored. Re-read the dictionary definition. Never reading and considering the feedback means it was ignored, and we have no evidence that’s been happening.

 

If the devs were obligated to respond to each and every comment, it would be a tremendous waste of their time, especially when taking into account how many posters were bringing up the same feedback over and over in spite of it being shot down already.

Just to make clear that I too understand what we all know, the devs aren't obligated to do anything. I am aware of that and I'm not saying otherwise.

 

However, you say we have no evidence that they've been ignoring feedback, but you just assume, without evidence, that they haven't been. No matter how many posts against adding a combo system to Energy Melee get deleted you continue to insist that the devs don't ignore feedback. No matter how many posts get made against nerfing Rune of Protection, it gets nerfed anyway, and you continue to insist that the devs don't ignore feedback.

 

I'm not saying that the developers should respond to every post that's made, or even to every poster in a thread. And the OP doesn't say that either. But you might have noticed that the OP does mention a couple of things that I've mentioned in the past. Like the fact that the developers don't explain what their goal is with a particular power set, and then they'll post "we didn't pay attention to the feedback because it didn't address our goal with that powerset." And yes, a developer posted almost those exact words so don't waste my time claiming that I'm mischaracterizing the developers statements.

 

You're not a neutral observer here. Based on your post history you're going to defend the developers no matter what I say. That's your choice of course, but it damages your credibility.

[arcane]

11 minutes ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

Just to make clear that I too understand what we all know, the devs aren't obligated to do anything. I am aware of that and I'm not saying otherwise.

 

However, you say we have no evidence that they've been ignoring feedback, but you just assume, without evidence, that they haven't been. No matter how many posts against adding a combo system to Energy Melee get deleted you continue to insist that the devs don't ignore feedback. No matter how many posts get made against nerfing Rune of Protection, it gets nerfed anyway, and you continue to insist that the devs don't ignore feedback.

 

I'm not saying that the developers should respond to every post that's made, or even to every poster in a thread. And the OP doesn't say that either. But you might have noticed that the OP does mention a couple of things that I've mentioned in the past. Like the fact that the developers don't explain what their goal is with a particular power set, and then they'll post "we didn't pay attention to the feedback because it didn't address our goal with that powerset." And yes, a developer posted almost those exact words so don't waste my time claiming that I'm mischaracterizing the developers statements.

 

You're not a neutral observer here. Based on your post history you're going to defend the developers no matter what I say. That's your choice of course, but it damages your credibility.

Over and over in this post you conflate whether or not the devs listened to feedback with whether or not the devs chose to integrate said feedback. The two are not the same.
 

And I sure hope you aren’t implying that you or the OP or the OP’s favorite poster are any more neutral than I am here. Because that would be laughable.

[arcane]

20 minutes ago, Vanden said:

Explaining the reasoning behind changes is probably just going to change the feedback from “tell us why you did this” to “here’s why you’re wrong to do this.”

A good point backed up by history. I too have observed that people demand answers so they can have something new to attack, not so they can come to terms with the devs’ approach. So it tends to strike me as very bad faith.

[Shin Magmus]

     It's a shame that Arcane's disruptive, contrarian comments caused even this thread to devolve into a fight.  This is why I actually ignored them (like the devs ignore feedback) and don't engage.  We could be much more productive, and have way less infighting, if other people would simply not take the bait and just not get involved in these arguments.  We're supposed to discuss the merits of each other's arguments and points, not sink to personal attacks against individual posters... but it's tiring seeing threads get derailed by fights like this over and over.  Enough fighting and a GM shows up, more fighting then the thread gets locked.  This essentially allows a sufficiently disruptive contrarian to inadvertently lock any thread that they want silenced... so long as you all continue to take the bait.

 

Get back on topic, ignore Arcane.

[arcane]

4 minutes ago, Shin Magmus said:

     It's a shame that Arcane's disruptive, contrarian comments caused even this thread to devolve into a fight.  This is why I actually ignored them (like the devs ignore feedback) and don't engage.  We could be much more productive, and have way less infighting, if other people would simply not take the bait and just not get involved in these arguments.  We're supposed to discuss the merits of each other's arguments and points, not sink to personal attacks against individual posters... but it's tiring seeing threads get derailed by fights like this over and over.  Enough fighting and a GM shows up, more fighting then the thread gets locked.  This essentially allows a sufficiently disruptive contrarian to inadvertently lock any thread that they want silenced... so long as you all continue to take the bait.

 

Get back on topic, ignore Arcane.

I’ve never seen someone so bad at ignoring someone. You talk about me constantly. 
 

No one is being disruptive or starting fights. We’re disagreeing with you. I know you’re used to “my way or the highway” but this is what we call disagreement.

Edited June 6 by arcane

[PeregrineFalcon]

37 minutes ago, arcane said:

Over and over in this post you conflate whether or not the devs listened to feedback with whether or not the devs chose to integrate said feedback. The two are not the same.

No. You and I have had this discussion many times in many threads. I've said repeatedly that no implementing feedback is not the same as ignoring feedback, I've even given examples. But you continue to intentionally misconstrue my words and claim things about my position that you know for a fact are not true. You'll jump through any hoops you have to to defend the devs, won't you Arcane?

 

40 minutes ago, arcane said:

And I sure hope you aren’t implying that you or the OP or the OP’s favorite poster are any more neutral than I am here. Because that would be laughable.

I don't know about the OP, and neither do you, but we both know that I'm not neutral. I've never made a secret of the fact that I'm critical of the developers, and I've even explained why. But please don't try to assert that you're anywhere close to neutral here, you're just going to damage what little credibility you have left it you even try that.

 

I operate as a foil for the Dev Defense League. People who, like yourself, defend the developers at all times. I don't just scream "the devs ignore us!!!!!111" I actually give examples. I even quoted a developer who explained why they sometimes ignore feedback. And yet here you are claiming, in contrast to a statement made by a developer, that they don't.

[ScarySai]

37 minutes ago, arcane said:

No one is being disruptive or starting fights.

 

This has been your MO for years, but luckily for you, the GMs seem to not mind it.

 

Congrats, I guess.

Edited June 6 by ScarySai

[arcane]

Just now, ScarySai said:

 

This has been your MO for years, but luckily for you, the GMs seem to not mind it.

 

Congrats, I guess.

I recognize that you are incapable of tolerating disagreement.

[ScarySai]

The irony.

[arcane]

5 minutes ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

No. You and I have had this discussion many times in many threads. I've said repeatedly that no implementing feedback is not the same as ignoring feedback, I've even given examples. But you continue to intentionally misconstrue my words and claim things about my position that you know for a fact are not true. You'll jump through any hoops you have to to defend the devs, won't you Arcane?

Why did you just give examples of the devs listening to but not integrating feedback (Rune of Protection, etc) if you don’t want me to think you’re conflating it with completely ignoring feedback? I’m not jumping through any hoops - I’m reading the words in your post.

[ScarySai]

1 hour ago, Vanden said:

Explaining the reasoning behind changes is probably just going to change the feedback from “tell us why you did this” to “here’s why you’re wrong to do this.”

 

Explaining your design intent and goals is the bare minimum that should be expected of a balance dev, especially ones that claim to be volunteers operating out of passion.

 

If your explanation is demonstrably wrong, then yeah, that's going to happen. You seem to imply that's somehow a bad thing, though.

[Shin Magmus]

I tried to prevent this...

[PeregrineFalcon]

4 minutes ago, Shin Magmus said:

I tried to prevent this...

Prevent what? Arcane and I are simply discussing this and disagreeing. Arcane's allowed to post, and he's even allowed to disagree with me. If you don't want to interact with Arcane that's fine but why do you think it's a problem that I do?

 

I also don't understand why you're trying to act like a moderator when you're not.

[Shin Magmus]

2 minutes ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

Prevent what? Arcane and I are simply discussing this and disagreeing. Arcane's allowed to post, and he's even allowed to disagree with me. If you don't want to interact with Arcane that's fine but why do you think it's a problem that I do?

     It's a problem because this type of interaction literally summons GMs and then locks threads, ending all possibility of further communication.  Arcane is a bad actor who is abusing the nature of these systems to basically scream "nu uh, the sky is actually green, not blue" and then bait people into pivoting from talking about the topic of the thread, into debating why what Arcane said is wrong.  This exact scenario has played out a hundred times before, and anyone paying attention can predict how it ends.  Since Arcane is never making any arguments in good faith, and instead deliberately just starting fights and locking threads... maybe they shouldn't be allowed to post?  A time-out period and reviewal of the rules may be in order.  We as a community can never get anything done because of a small handful of posters here who do this shit and abuse the systems and the nature of the moderators/GMs.

 

One solution is to stop taking the bait.  The other solution is for these people to finally face some just punishment for their actions.

[Glacier Peak]

Patience, I submitted a bug report in 2019 that hasn't been fixed. Is it reported through proper channels? Yes, it is. Do I expect a developer to do something about it? No, maybe? If they're interested enough in it or find a way to address it during their volunteer time. 

 

Nothing wrong with following up on the status of a request. I've also been around this community long enough to know things take time. 

[arcane]

11 minutes ago, Shin Magmus said:

     It's a problem because this type of interaction literally summons GMs and then locks threads, ending all possibility of further communication.  Arcane is a bad actor who is abusing the nature of these systems to basically scream "nu uh, the sky is actually green, not blue" and then bait people into pivoting from talking about the topic of the thread, into debating why what Arcane said is wrong.  This exact scenario has played out a hundred times before, and anyone paying attention can predict how it ends.  Since Arcane is never making any arguments in good faith, and instead deliberately just starting fights and locking threads... maybe they shouldn't be allowed to post?  A time-out period and reviewal of the rules may be in order.  We as a community can never get anything done because of a small handful of posters here who do this shit and abuse the systems and the nature of the moderators/GMs.

 

One solution is to stop taking the bait.  The other solution is for these people to finally face some just punishment for their actions.

People aren’t posting in bad faith because they disagree with you. Calm down.

[AmrasNotHere]

4 hours ago, arcane said:

Just because all of your boyfriend’s ideas weren’t implemented doesn’t mean *any* feedback was “ignored”. We certainly won’t avoid any drama in the next round of beta testing if you’re going to cling to false narratives.

This is a personal attack, not a disagreeing statement.

 

19 minutes ago, Shin Magmus said:

One solution is to stop taking the bait.  The other solution is for these people to finally face some just punishment for their actions.

^our nature makes it hard not to take the bait lol someone in this thread is especially good at baiting people

 

3 hours ago, Vanden said:

Explaining the reasoning behind changes is probably just going to change the feedback from “tell us why you did this” to “here’s why you’re wrong to do this.”

I actually can't help but agree with this unfortunately to an extent.  I do however think Player 1 as my example has provided explanations in the past when topics like this arise that opened up room for productive discussions and provide a level of transparency that leads to understanding the reasoning behind changes. Sometimes you need to take action, sometimes you don't. When there are issues from multiple parts of the community, explanations will go a long way vs silence. 

 

I acknowledge that the topic at hand is being diverted into an area that normally leads to the post being nuked.

I PERSONALLY think that there is a lot of room for better communication and would refer to my previous post about requesting more post patch support.

At the same time, I do acknowledge that HC doesn't exactly have a PR team to communicate these types of issues that arise with a plan to fit them into their schedule.

 

They have been upping their efforts to have discussions though, progress is progress and I'll take it at this point.

Edited June 6 by AmrasNotHere
Clarity

[GM_GooglyMoogly]

7 hours ago, Shin Magmus said:

We're supposed to discuss the merits of each other's arguments and points, not sink to personal attacks against individual posters... but it's tiring seeing threads get derailed by fights like this over and over.  Enough fighting and a GM shows up, more fighting then the thread gets locked. 

 

*Sigh*

 

Shin, apparently, is psychic.  Or at least good at spotting patterns.   I should probably close the thread.  It was one post from four months ago, during the last testing cycle, that was resurrected.  Folks are bickering over personality traits instead of the topic.  And, in order to conform to the perceptions of certain players, GMs should immediate stifle any criticism of the Devs.  We don't.  But folks believe that we do nonetheless.

 

There will not be any open comments from the devs at this time.  There have been many comments from the devs in the closed beta forums, and even more in the closed beta sections of Gold Standard Testers Discord.  So Radio Silence should be expected until things go into open beta.

 

I can understand the perspective of the players because I've been a player for 20 years and only relatively recently joined the team as a GM.  A bunch of new Devs have also been on-boarded recently too.  But you should live a day in the devs shoes.  They too have been players and fans.  The only difference is they have some coding skill and have agreed to volunteer those skills.  They, like you, have favorite sets and sets that think need help.  They, like you, have content that they would like to see added to the game.  So they spend countless hours learning this game's crazy code and countless more hours trying to create something they like.  And when they show it to us some praise it as the work of benevolent gods and others curse them as evil know-nothings.  Neither of those is true, in case you didn't know.

 

And, despite the criticism thrown their way they continue to work on the game in the best way they know how.

 

Do they listen to players' concerns?  Hell yes, they do.  Do they obey players' demands?  Hell, no they don't.  Unless it fits with where they want the game to go.

 

Here are wiki links to the last two issues that have been put out by Homecoming. https://homecoming.wiki/wiki/Issue_26  https://homecoming.wiki/wiki/Issue_27

 

I'd ask all of you to read through them and ask yourself if they haven't added things that you wanted, maybe even lobbied for.  Perhaps things that you even love.  And yes, I am sure there are other things that you hated when they came out.  Some you got used to and some you still hate.

 

But if you don't want threads locked, please don't insult each other (or anyone, really).  Please stay on topic.  And for those that hate me most of all, please be excellent to each other.

 

Thread will remain open for now.  How long is up to all of you.

 

Oh!  I meant to link this as well:  https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/dev-vs-qa-cant-we-all-just-get-along-ruslan-desyatnikov/

Edited June 7 by GM_GooglyMoogly

[Luminara]

 

3 hours ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

ig·nore

/iɡˈnôr/

verb

refuse to take notice of or acknowledge; disregard intentionally.

"he ignored her outraged question"

 

 

If someone posts tons of feedback and never gets a response then how is that NOT being ignored when it's the literal dictionary definition of the word?

 

Not responding != not reading.  They can't do their work and respond to dozens or hundreds of posts simultaneously.  You can have long, meaningful conversations, or new content/bug fixes/updates to old content.  You can't have both, so pick one and live with it.