Retool Praetoria to start at level 20. Make First Ward and Night Ward levelless zones.

[Steampunkette]

Wow that'd be a lot of work... but I suggest it for several reasons.

 

1) Praetoria's enemy groups were designed with IO Set bonuses in mind to handle players in Incarnate Trials, so even the "Low Level" threats in the Going Rogue starting areas are painfully overtuned since they were just scaled down by level. Yes, it allows for some players to enjoy "Hardmode" runs, but I don't think this change would severely impact that. Giving players access to more powers (particularly more controls/defense for the majority of ATs) would make things a bit more fair.

 

2) Praetorian characters are presented as stronger/tougher/more resilient because of the dystopian world they were forced to grow up in. Starting them at level 20, or even just level 15, would help to reinforce that idea.

 

3) It would give new and returning players a good and solid reason to do the Praetorian content since they'd be able to start out at a higher level than characters in CoH. And let's face it: The zones look amazing and the storylines are written with a more focused narrative voice than the older CoH and even CoV content.

 

4) Making First Ward and Night Ward levelless would allow the higher level Praetorian characters to leave the initial Going Rogue content and move on to the First Ward without having to boost First and Night Ward content up separately. Though I would suggest having the "Auto Grant" of First Ward/Night Ward contacts still happen at or after level 20 for Primals and after leaving Praetoria for Praetorians.

 

Alternatively, you could make all of Praetoria "Levelless Content" which scales with the player and then set it to grant level 20 to characters that leave the Praetorian Tutorial or make a new character in Praetoria.

 

That would also allow Primal characters to "Infiltrate" Praetoria at any level and do the Praetorian content, as well. Making that expansion far more accessible to the playerbase. It could also be a lot of fun as a CoH character to get up into the 45 range and do the Portal Corps arcs before transitioning to Praetoria to help the Resistance... THEN move on to Incarnate Trials.

 

You know... I had one intention at the start, but now I just think Levelless Praetoria and Praeto characters starting at 20 is a better idea by far.

Edited February 20 by Steampunkette

[Lunar Ronin]

No thank you.  I enjoy playing the Praetorian content at level because it isn't so easy that I can roll my face on my keyboard and still win like blue side.  Fix the various bugs gold side?  Sure.  Smooth out the leveling?  Great.  Be unable to start characters in Praetoria and play the content at the levels it was designed for?  No way.

 

In addition, leveless doesn't really work in City of Heroes as everything has an internal level.  Making the Wards leveless would be meaningless as it would be a cakewalk at level 50.

[Steampunkette]

Just now, Lunar Ronin said:

No thank you.  I enjoy playing the Praetorian content at level because it isn't so easy that I can roll my face on my keyboard and still win like blue side.  Fix the various bugs gold side?  Sure.  Smooth out the leveling?  Great.  Be unable to start characters in Praetoria and play the content at the levels it was designed for?  No way.

 

In addition, leveless doesn't really work in City of Heroes as everything has an internal level.  Making the Wards leveless would be meaningless as it would be a cakewalk at level 50.

From what you're saying it's a cakewalk at level 30 so what's the difference? 😛

[Lunar Ronin]

Just now, Steampunkette said:

From what you're saying it's a cakewalk at level 30 so what's the difference? 😛

 

 

Blue side is a cakewalk at any level.  Night Ward at level 30 isn't.

[Steampunkette]

Attuned IOs make everything post level 27 a cakewalk except iTrials...

 

Mainly because you have to rely on other players in iTrials who may or may not have issues with latency or knowing what they're doing.

Edited February 20 by Steampunkette

[Lunar Ronin]

2 minutes ago, Steampunkette said:

Attuned IOs make everything post level 27 a cakewalk except iTrials...

 

Mainly because you have to rely on other players in iTrials who may or may not have issues with latency or knowing what they're doing.

 

Yeah, I am not crazy about attuned IO enhancement sets for that reason.  But gold side content actually poses a little difficulty unlike most earlier content, and making it leveless would just make it easier.

[Psyonico]

Currently you can leave praetoria at level 20, what would happen to that?

 

I don't necessarily think the mobs are over tuned, it's more that there are a bunch of other factors (high-speed ambushes for one).

 

Seeing as Praetorians can access pocket D, I think it would just cause faster/more power leveling, meaning more players at 50 that don't know how to play their character.

 

No thanks.

[PyroBeetle]

I do not see the need for this...I recently completed another every arc run through Praetoria, soloed all content to include the events, using only SO enhancements purchased by the vendors...while the content may be "overtuned" it was not so challenging that it couldn't be done, easily, using only SOs...point in fact I only came close to dying one time, and a couple of inspirations fixed that.

[Steampunkette]

14 minutes ago, Psyonico said:

Currently you can leave praetoria at level 20, what would happen to that?

 

I don't necessarily think the mobs are over tuned, it's more that there are a bunch of other factors (high-speed ambushes for one).

 

Seeing as Praetorians can access pocket D, I think it would just cause faster/more power leveling, meaning more players at 50 that don't know how to play their character.

 

No thanks.

Instead of leaving at 20 you'd leave when you complete the arcs and choose to leave? *shrug*

 

And yeah. People are going to continue powerleveling to 50 and not bothering to slot a single enhancement 'til they get there because that's the game some people like to play. Do I think it's fun or healthy? Not really. But whether or not Praetorians start at level 1 or level 20 they're still going to do it so what impact does that actually mean?

 

That some people might make a Praetorian to skip the fastest 20 levels of PLing to 50? Oh no!

 

If people are going to play that game they're going to play that game. And short of making PLing impossible, which the Devs have shown no inclination towards, nothing is going to change that. This line of thought is just fearmongering and pearlclutching.

[Lunar Ronin]

21 minutes ago, Psyonico said:

Currently you can leave praetoria at level 20, what would happen to that?

 

I don't necessarily think the mobs are over tuned, it's more that there are a bunch of other factors (high-speed ambushes for one).

 

Seeing as Praetorians can access pocket D, I think it would just cause faster/more power leveling, meaning more players at 50 that don't know how to play their character.

 

No thanks.

 

 

The Wards are admittedly a little overtuned, which the Paragon Studios developers admitted to in one of the post-sunset AMAs.  That's not a bad thing though, IMO.  It creates a nice balance compared to the much easier old blue side content.

 

The first three Praetorian zones aren't over tuned though, they're just not as easy as the earlier low-level zones.  The only real difficulty is playing them with a Mastermind, as ambushes ignore your henchmen and target the Mastermind directly.  But it can be done.

Edited February 20 by Lunar Ronin

[Rudra]

Here's a dumb question: If the Praetorian content was changed to start at level 20, what would the Praetorian PCs do until level 20? And follow up question: since it seems like alignments can't be taken away once we are heroes or villains, and Praetorians aren't heroes or villains until they do the mission that sends them to Primal Earth, how would you maintain the isolation of the Praetorians from Primal Earth content if Praetorian content doesn't start until level 20? (And if your answer is that Praetorian PCs also start at level 20, my response is going to be a very big /jranger.)

[Greycat]

So, what about characters who *are* Praetorians? Grew up in Cole's world (or that of the Resistance) and has that part of what defines who they are?

 

Goldside, for all its lack of population, is still *very* story driven - and we don't run into anyone from Primal until near 20 as it is. Now, if you want to talk about extending Praetoria's story - which has been asked for before, and ... sure - and having that open up to people from Primal Earth? OK, that's one thing. But "Toss all this away and start at 20" just ... breaks and scraps the entire thing. As much as I find the tutorial-ish missions in there (such as "pick flowers for Marauder's girlfriend," which you don't need to be IO'd to do ;') ) annoying at times, they still very organically fill in the characters and their personalities and such. Which is needed - but would feel weird at 20.

 

Plus I'd have to second Rudra's question regarding alignments - and add a question of just *why* they'd bring someone from Primal into Powers Division and let them have any sort of authority or free rein to do much of anything.

 

So... *new* Praetorian content, both Prae-specific and Primal accessible? Sure.  This sort of revamp? Ehhhhh...

[PeregrineFalcon]

[Luminara]

Pared down to the essentials, you want to take the third starter zone away from the players who use it to stave off burnout, make the development team spend time redesigning the zones and reworking the NPCs so you don't have to use the Flashback system, and create an instant 20 option with no plans for starter inf*/merits/enhancements/anything to either make said instant 20's playable or prevent AH chaos.

[The Chairman]

5 hours ago, Steampunkette said:

1) Praetoria's enemy groups were designed with IO Set bonuses in mind to handle players in Incarnate Trials, so even the "Low Level" threats in the Going Rogue starting areas are painfully overtuned since they were just scaled down by level.

 

What are you basing this on? I don't recall any Incarnate content that has you fighting Syndicate, Ghouls, PPD, Destroyers, Seers, or Failed Experiments. Even when you fight Resistance in BAF, the mobs are running away and not fighting back. I don't see any in-game evidence to support this.

[Rudra]

4 hours ago, The Chairman said:

9 hours ago, Steampunkette said:

1) Praetoria's enemy groups were designed with IO Set bonuses in mind to handle players in Incarnate Trials, so even the "Low Level" threats in the Going Rogue starting areas are painfully overtuned since they were just scaled down by level.

 

What are you basing this on? I don't recall any Incarnate content that has you fighting Syndicate, Ghouls, PPD, Destroyers, Seers, or Failed Experiments. Even when you fight Resistance in BAF, the mobs are running away and not fighting back. I don't see any in-game evidence to support this.

You bring up a very good point. From what I remember, the Going Rogue enemies Praetorian PCs face are intentionally designed to be more difficult/hazardous than the enemies encountered in Paragon City or the Rogue Isles, but they were not designed with IOs in mind. They were designed to give players a more difficult game to experience, and they may even be overtuned to some extent in the devs attempt to make more difficult enemies, but to the best of my knowledge, they were never designed around players having IOs to face them. So even setting aside level differences, the enemies you face in the iTrials, as in the Imperial Defense Forces and their versions of the seers, clockwork,, et al. are not the same as what players face playing through the Praetorian zones. So I would also like to know where @Steampunkette is getting the idea that all Praetorian mobs are meant to be faced with IOs.

[DrIlluminatis]

Having played 1 character through the entire Praetorian to Primal Earth arc, it's a bit more difficult but it's not impossible, you just need to slot your enhancements effectively as it's made for players who are already familiar with the game systems, you definitely don't want to Start in Praetoria if you've never played the game before