Fixing fire control after bonfire nerf.

[WindDemon21]

So as noticeable and unnecessary as the bonfire nerf was, especially for controller/dominators there should be some compensation to recover control that was lost due to this.

 

Since Smoke has been in the set forever, which is nice but widely the most skippable power besides the bad tier 1, and now that smoke cannister is working in arsenal, I think a perfect way to fix fire control would be to port the smoke canister power exactly just with smoke's animation.

 

This would give fire control back the every mob mitigation without relying only on flashfire (generally assuming you save the aoe hold for oh sh!t moments like you do with other sets), especially earlier on when you don't have i ready every mob.

 

The smoke canister power would be the perfect way to change smoke and fix the control lost for fire control.

 

In addition for bonfire itself it really should have a quicksand-like slow component added to it now IMO, and it desperately needs its cast time reduced to the 1.67s cast that the exact same animation already exists in neuron bomb and force bomb. (Likewise flashfire/ flash freeze etc should be reduced to the 1.83s like psi tornado is)

 

And Imps have needed help beyond all pets being even level which should happen. They need at least some s/l resistance, could even see psy resist since theyre so mindless, and some mez resistance (not protection is fine) since they are kinda the embodiment of "burn off the mez" kinda like what AM does.

They should really have ring of fire added to their attack too so they can bring down flyers, that or cremate with the KD to help them survive but RoF makes more sense (or flares).

 

Edit: hopefully this gets fixed very soon with page 27.2 and not wait till page 28 please *crosses fingers*

Edited March 1 by WindDemon21

[Communistpenguin]

Pretty sure it was widely accepted that bonfire was crazy op with the KB->KD enhancement.

[WindDemon21]

11 hours ago, Communistpenguin said:

Pretty sure it was widely accepted that bonfire was crazy op with the KB->KD enhancement.

It definitely wasn't. That was only the case when kb-kd was first introduced to it but it was nerfed properly then and has been fine since. It's much more noticeably pathetic now after this last patch and this is to help reclaim the sets control that was overly lost. (Which easily still could have been done even if bonfire wasn't nerfed anyway it just makes extra sense now)

[Uun]

I don't agree that the change to Bonfire was as massive as you suggest. It went from a 40% KD chance every 2s to a 20% KD chance every 1s. Yes it works differently, but I don't find it to be "much more noticeably pathetic". As for adding a slow, that already exists in Hot Feet.

 

I haven't played Arsenal so I can't comment on Smoke Canister, but I don't think Fire needs an AoE confuse. There are enough control sets with that. I wouldn't complain if the -tohit in Smoke was increased a bit.

[WindDemon21]

1 hour ago, Uun said:

I don't agree that the change to Bonfire was as massive as you suggest. It went from a 40% KD chance every 2s to a 20% KD chance every 1s. Yes it works differently, but I don't find it to be "much more noticeably pathetic". As for adding a slow, that already exists in Hot Feet.

 

I haven't played Arsenal so I can't comment on Smoke Canister, but I don't think Fire needs an AoE confuse. There are enough control sets with that. I wouldn't complain if the -tohit in Smoke was increased a bit.

There are *now* 2.5 sets with it (half for mass confusion due to its rech tbh) even at 3, that is not a lot lol. Even without the bonfire nerf, the set could still make sense for that to be a Smoke canister type power.

 

And that is not how it ends up in play, the bonfire nerf is noticeably worse easily. You can see it just by playing it and noticing how many less KDs are happening. There are so many more that are just standing there not getting KD'd from it. Hence all the people complaining about this nerf this patch.

 

As to the slow, much like hotfeet it makes sense for it to be there. It also works much differently in the power itself versus a (very weak) slow that is toggled on around you that also gets suppressed when you get mezzed. They're not even close in benefits of having it in the pseudopet itself versus the slow in hotfeet, especially for how weak the slow in hotfeet is.

[Uun]

43 minutes ago, WindDemon21 said:

There are *now* 2.5 sets with it (half for mass confusion due to its rech tbh) even at 3, that is not a lot lol.

Arsenal, Electric, Ice, Mind, Plant

 

45 minutes ago, WindDemon21 said:

As to the slow, much like hotfeet it makes sense for it to be there. It also works much differently in the power itself versus a (very weak) slow that is toggled on around you that also gets suppressed when you get mezzed. They're not even close in benefits of having it in the pseudopet itself versus the slow in hotfeet, especially for how weak the slow in hotfeet is.

The slow in Hot Feet is -87.5% and has a 20 ft radius. This compares to -90% and a 25 ft radius for Quicksand and -81.25% cone for Cold Snap. Not "weak" by any stretch.

[Captain Fabulous]

/powercreep

[WindDemon21]

40 minutes ago, Uun said:

Arsenal, Electric, Ice, Mind, Plant

Ah elec, knew there was one i was forgetting. Even though then though it's not a true "aoe" and has issues with chaining, missing, not confusing the whole mob at once when you need it etc. So I'd still count it closer to a half than a full aoe confuse.

 

Regarding hotfeet, yes, but without that -max run speed it makes a BIG difference in how weak the power is as a slow power, especially when the power needs so much acc/dam/end reduction slotted in the power as well. With fire cages, nobody is also not using that on top of hotfeet (and if they don't they'll really notice how weak the slow is without that -max run speed), but in a pseudopet especially bonfire, again, it's not the same as having it in hotfeet. That allows you to use it for corner pulling, or if not using kb-kd, lets it slow the mobs down so they don't get past the center where the KB will start flying them in the opposite direction of where you want creating a "barrier wall" effect. Hotfeet again, also will suppress when mezzed doing nothing.

 

In either case, the loss means the set is relying on just the aoe stun, and the aoe hold (which is usually reserved for oh crap moments esp with the 4 minute rech that all should really be 2 minutes on all sets), so the main only mitigation in the set is all resting on flashfire, which is not enough mitigation for a control set (certainly not only looking at max +rech builds with permahasten etc)

 

It's definitely not power creep. Bonfire working properly was the only thing offsetting fire controls control to make it worthy enough, with that nerfed, the set definitely needs help, and smoke canister clone for smoke is the perfect fix to round out the set. (and yes, gravity also still needs help, sing pull in is nice, but the set still needs another every mob/soft control, on top of sing getting it's resists bumped back to 90% like it was before or beter at 70% but heal-able but that's another thread)

[Uun]

10 minutes ago, WindDemon21 said:

on top of sing getting it's resists bumped back to 90% like it was before

Before 2005? That's when its resistance was reduced. 

[WindDemon21]

1 minute ago, Uun said:

Before 2005? That's when its resistance was reduced. 

Whenever it was, thought it was later than that but yes, ever since they were cut down to 1 pet only the resistance drop was very noticeable for not being able to heal it and should have been brought back up then, but another thread still.

[Uun]

I just ran through Provost Marchand's 2nd arc set to +3/x4 on my lvl 50 Fire/Nature controller (+1 lvl shift). It's got a wide mix of foes, including Freakshow, Crey, Council and Praetorians, and a lot of tough bosses. Except for a handful of situations where the geography didn't allow, I opened every fight with Bonfire and rarely used Flashfire. Other than fliers or foes with kb protection, every member of every spawn flopped in unison every time Bonfire pulsed. I saw no evidence of foes standing around not getting knocked.

[kelika2]

id sign on for slightly more damage on everything.  .55 scale on flashfire.  new attack for fire imps called explosive plick.  7ft radius minor damage aoe.  adding damage to cinders, etc.

[WindDemon21]

17 hours ago, Uun said:

I just ran through Provost Marchand's 2nd arc set to +3/x4 on my lvl 50 Fire/Nature controller (+1 lvl shift). It's got a wide mix of foes, including Freakshow, Crey, Council and Praetorians, and a lot of tough bosses. Except for a handful of situations where the geography didn't allow, I opened every fight with Bonfire and rarely used Flashfire. Other than fliers or foes with kb protection, every member of every spawn flopped in unison every time Bonfire pulsed. I saw no evidence of foes standing around not getting knocked.

That's weird because that's not anywhere near what I've seen when testing, and that's not how the power works with a kb-kd converter in it anyway. It seems that you're basing it on not putting a kb-kd in it and spamming fire cages because that's the only way it will knock the entire mob down in unison.

 

This is a discussion about the bonfire nerf with kb-kd in it, not in your circumstance. If you were somehow seeing it happen as you just described with kb-kd in it only, and not zero kb-kd with fire cages spammed, then there is some other bug happening. Possibly related to which kb-kd you're using?

 

Testing mine I had the sudden acceleration one in it, and with even 3 enemies, I was only seeing knockdown on one of the 3 about every 4 seconds. I tested this just now again and same results. On a full mob, I was only seeing about 2 enemies knocked down at any given time.

 

And yes i've used OF in it pre-patch, and even then it would never knock the whole mob down in unison, only maybe a couple extra knockdowns at first cast and again after 10 seconds as procs work.

 

So if it is as you're saying, i'm not sure what it is but there is definitely some favorable bug that you're getting that nobody else seems to be getting at least nobody that i've heard.

 

This is definitely a big issue, and it is NOT working as you seem to somehow be seeing it. Again I just tested it again and was only getting about 2 enemies knocked down at any time. THIS IS NOT OK!

 

Hence these suggestions, which honestly even pre-patch bonfire was nice but never really close to OP and could still see these changes happening to the set. But especially now with how bonfire is working, or I should say not working, the set needs help.

 

Edit, just tested with OF too, and still only on average 2 enemies knocked down at any given time. There is NO way you're seeing it as described without some really weird and specific bug happening. THIS IS NOT OK.

Edited March 2 by WindDemon21

[WindDemon21]

OK, I think I found the bug actually. The bug IS with fire cages. After a lot more testing, depending when you use cages and when you cast it. I was testing bonfire, not that fire cages should have any effect on it KD chance, and it didn't happen every time which is really odd because it didn't do this every time , but only when I'd use fire cages would I get the whole mob knockdown. It's very odd, and obviously is not what the devs had intended for the power.

 

But does confirm the bug whatever is going on. Try testing bonfire on it's own though when I used bonfire on its own, I did not get the whole mob knockdown, as I assume this bug would be found and fixed eventually, unless we get confirmation from them that they aren't touching it, I would expect this.

 

Adjust your expectations accordingly, but as it is *supposed* to work, it's really bad.

 

If they confirm that they aren't changing it again, then I suppose that's one thing, but I'd still have the power itself be more consistent, especially if using as an opener.

 

I did not get as you claimed without first using fire cages on the mob before bonfire hit, and obviously you don't want to be NEEDING to do that and getting all the aggro and alpha strike.

 

Regardless the other non-smoke related changes I mentioned should still happen, but if and when they do fix this bug, the set should definitely be compensated via smoke.

 

Edit before i hit the edit button because I caught it in time lol: Been trying with other fire powers, especially flashfire, and it did seem to bump up the knockdown chances as well, but oddly not as much as when I used fire cages. I presume hotfeet seemed to impact it as well but i'd chock that up to rng since I'd had already flashfire'd them so I didn't die and tried to see what it was post-stun wearing off. In both cases though the KD noticeably happened more when fire cages was used.

[AmazingRando]

On 2/29/2024 at 1:24 PM, WindDemon21 said:

So as noticeable and unnecessary as the bonfire nerf was, especially for controller/dominators there should be some compensation to recover control that was lost due to this.

 

 

Im VERY happy someone is talking about this. 

[Uun]

1 hour ago, WindDemon21 said:

That's weird because that's not anywhere near what I've seen when testing, and that's not how the power works with a kb-kd converter in it anyway. It seems that you're basing it on not putting a kb-kd in it and spamming fire cages because that's the only way it will knock the entire mob down in unison.

 

This is a discussion about the bonfire nerf with kb-kd in it, not in your circumstance. If you were somehow seeing it happen as you just described with kb-kd in it only, and not zero kb-kd with fire cages spammed, then there is some other bug happening. Possibly related to which kb-kd you're using?

I have Bonfire 6-slotted with the entire Sudden Acceleration set, including the KB>KD piece. I have Fire Cages 6-slotted with Superior Will of the Controller. This is the same slotting I used before p7. I cast Smoke first, then Bonfire, then Fire Cages. 

[WindDemon21]

22 hours ago, Uun said:

I have Bonfire 6-slotted with the entire Sudden Acceleration set, including the KB>KD piece. I have Fire Cages 6-slotted with Superior Will of the Controller. This is the same slotting I used before p7. I cast Smoke first, then Bonfire, then Fire Cages. 

Then you should be seeing the same thing I'm seeing but somehow aren't. At best, it's inconsistent. At 2nd best, it's working due to a bug. At worst, it's working as I see it with the power on it's own which is definitely likely where the devs intended it to be, or is a bug itself as well.

 

In any of those cases, the power definitely didn't need a nerf (especially on troller/dom primaries), the other suggestions I mentioned still make sense to happen, and especially given the intended change on bonfire.

 

As you see and explained it, when fire cages is used, it's actually better than it was pre page 27 (when fire cages is used) and that is obviously not what the devs intended as they were trying to nerf the power. Likely the bug is somewhere in the interaction with the powers own kb-kd feature, but touching the power at all was still unjustified, and would like to see these changes to fire control with post-intended bonfire nerf.

[Riverdusk]

On 3/1/2024 at 6:13 PM, kelika2 said:

id sign on for slightly more damage on everything.  .55 scale on flashfire.  new attack for fire imps called explosive plick.  7ft radius minor damage aoe.  adding damage to cinders, etc.

 

I'd be for this over giving fire control more control.  IMO fire should be the top damage control set and that should be its niche...balanced by its control not being as good.   Give it a damage boost somewhere.  That's the "identity" for it I'd like to see more leaned into anyway.

[WindDemon21]

18 hours ago, Riverdusk said:

 

I'd be for this over giving fire control more control.  IMO fire should be the top damage control set and that should be its niche...balanced by its control not being as good.   Give it a damage boost somewhere.  That's the "identity" for it I'd like to see more leaned into anyway.

It already is by nature of fire cages + hotfeet alone (edit: big part due to containment, doms don't get this obviously but their secondary rounds out the damage, which is why sets should be more rounded, not just all in on damage etc). This is fairly noticeable on large mobs. Imps have been needing help a lot as is too even before this bonfire issue came into play and they should be bumped to help as well (more resilient via s/l resist and mez resist and adding ring of fire or flares with -fly) It doesn't need more damage outside of fixing imps, what it did need was more control especially with the aggro that hotfeet does give you. Even pre-bonfire nerf the set still felt like it needed more control than it had when looking at other sets but bonfire made up enough to not "look" at the set before other sets. This just pushes that boundary more into view that it should have something else via smoke change.

 

What it also could use (Arctic Air too) is a reduction in endurance cost on hotfeet, and a faster cast on bonfire and flashfire.

 

If they ever hopefully get around to fixing single target immobilizes too especially on troller/dom primaries and blaster tier 1 secondaries by giving them all 1s cast times and having the damage come in 4s not in 9, that would help too, with fire obviously having more than other ST immobilizes would also help (even if then most would still skip the ST immobilize, it would be there at least)

Edited March 4 by WindDemon21

[Uun]

On 3/2/2024 at 1:14 PM, WindDemon21 said:

OK, I think I found the bug actually. The bug IS with fire cages. After a lot more testing, depending when you use cages and when you cast it. I was testing bonfire, not that fire cages should have any effect on it KD chance, and it didn't happen every time which is really odd because it didn't do this every time , but only when I'd use fire cages would I get the whole mob knockdown. It's very odd, and obviously is not what the devs had intended for the power.

Just noticed this. Looks like it's not a bug.

 

[Zect]

Fire control has been fine since even before KD2KB existed, so it doesn’t need any changes. 

[WindDemon21]

On 3/24/2024 at 3:29 AM, Zect said:

Fire control has been fine since even before KD2KB existed, so it doesn’t need any changes. 

It definitely hasn't, without the kb-kd in bonfire it ony has flashfire and cinders to stop mobs from attacking, which pretty much every other control set also has, plus extra control (or several other things to compensate). Like grav control still needs some help too though, both should have something else to help mob-mob besides just those, fear, confuse, kd, etc. Fire does get this via bonfire, but the kb-kd has to be used pretty much.

 

On 3/23/2024 at 7:18 PM, Uun said:

Just noticed this. Looks like it's not a bug.

 

that's really odd, i feel like it just is working like that, but i still don't think that was the devs intention to work like that, or they would have specified that in the patch notes especially with everyone complaining about the nerf.

 

Still, I'd much rather the power and/or set be fixed without that mechanic, either proper KD'ing bonfire without any interaction needed with fire cages, or changing smoke to work like smoke canister.

[Parabola]

1 hour ago, WindDemon21 said:

It definitely hasn't, without the kb-kd in bonfire it ony has flashfire and cinders to stop mobs from attacking, which pretty much every other control set also has, plus extra control (or several other things to compensate).

Fire control has always had extra damage and less control than other control sets. That is how it was balanced from the start of the game. The addition of kb->kd added extra control but it was never supposed to be a balancing factor for the set. I admire your enthusiasm but the entire basis of your argument is unfortunately mistaken.

[WindDemon21]

15 minutes ago, Parabola said:

Fire control has always had extra damage and less control than other control sets. That is how it was balanced from the start of the game. The addition of kb->kd added extra control but it was never supposed to be a balancing factor for the set. I admire your enthusiasm but the entire basis of your argument is unfortunately mistaken.

Back in the day more sure, but while hotfeet is nice granted, with the pet nerf down to one cast only where the imps impacted MUCH more when you had 16-20 of them versus other pets, it's not nearly the same in the way that it was before.

 

Especially since they made recharge not affect pets as well, which with imps having only one attack hurt them the most as well, not to mention at some point pets like jack frost had their ai tweaked for those attacks to be more efficient, and are also sturdier/less affected by mez etc so what the pets do mean more as well. Imps are, VERY outclassed now by pretty much every other pet and need some of those tweaks.

Edited April 3 by WindDemon21

[Luminara]

30 minutes ago, WindDemon21 said:

Maybe back in the day, hotfeet is nice granted, but with the pet nerf down to one cast only where the imps impacted MUCH more when you had 16-20 of them versus other pets, it's not nearly the same in the way that it was before.

That was Issue 5.  And Fire Control remained the most popular controller/dominator set, despite having fewer hard controls than other sets.

 

For nineteen years.

 

You're not going to find gold ingots in a humanure pile, no matter how frantically you scrabble around in it.