An Overly Long Tangent Talking About The Issues With Being Overly Jaded (TM)

[McSpazz]

Hey all! It's me! Spazzy! I wanted to expand on something I've tried to push both in workshops as well in my write-ups. Not just because I want to make this opinion of mine explicit but also because I want to try and directly encourage others to take on a similar outlook.

 

One of the most common issues I have with other people's RP styles comes down to not so much a character's lack of wonder at the world they inhabit but more so something that seems to spread to all of a person's characters. The all to common trope of "I've seen worse." More often than not, it almost feels like more of the player becoming jaded and used to the world rather than the character.

 

1. Some Perspective On Heroes and Villains
It's easy to get lost in the weirdness of living as a hero in Paragon, so I'd like to try and use some raw numbers to better put metahumans into perspective. I'm going to try and be as generous as possible to give a situation that I feel is the most realistic projection of how things probably are.

 

Given the aftermath of the Rikti war devastating most major cities, Paragon seems to be positioned to be one of the larger cities in the United States. For the sake of comparison, I'll be using the city with the largest population in the North East outside of New York: Philadelphia with a total population of about 1,603,797. For the number of heroes in Paragon, while I could use the peak total online players of Homecoming, that's obviously not a fair comparison since not only can a single player have multiple characters but I myself frequently state that we should be wary of using game mechanics (or in this case game statistics) to reflect how the world works. So, instead, to be extra generous, I'll say that the hero population in Paragon is about the same as the number of police in New York City (the largest in the nation) at about 36,000 officers.

 

So, even in a scenario with what I feel is an overly generous population to hero comparison, that still means that superheroes make up only 2.2% of the population. However, the game makes clear that not all metahumans are super strong. That means that, of that 2.2%, the number of powerful metahumans is doubtlessly smaller, the number of incarnate level heroes is even smaller, and the number of true incarnates is even smaller than that. Even if you wanted to argue that the population should be smaller or compared to another city in New England, taking the population of Boston (650,706) puts us at 5.5%. Keep in mind, this is STILL utilizing the largest police force in the entire country as a point of comparison and we are still a relatively tiny fraction of the overall population. In fact, if you take the Boston metro area (including the surrounding suburbs), that population jumps to 2.4 million which, while still smaller than New York, brings the total percentage to just 1.6%.

 

You could argue that the ratio of metahumans overall is higher since this is only considering the number of heroes, but, regardless, the number of non-metahumans to metahumans is going to lean towards non-metahumans or at the very least the types of metahumans you encounter are going to be above human averages but not insanely so (ie: most Skulls and Hellions). Basically, if you don't know someone who is a metahuman, you probably know someone who knows someone that is a metahuman but that metahuman is, more than likely, not overly impressive.

 

It's even more stilted if you look at the ratio worldwide. Paragon and Etoli are the epicenters for weirdness of the metahuman and supernatural varieties. Imagine how mundane the rest of the world likely feels in comparison even if what the world of CoX considers as normal would be madness to our eyes.

 

While the technology of Paragon might be advanced, the proliferation of it to the rest of the world has likely not been overly aggressive. Just look at how long it took for the PPD to get access to mediporters. Likewise, while there might be stores where you can just buy magical equipment and books (ie: Talos), Paragon is on a direct intersection with multiple lay lines which is a huge reason why the Circle of Thorns are based underneath Paragon in their massive cave network.

 

So why point all of this out?

 

2. Banality
In the World of Darkness game Changeling the Dreaming, there's a concept called banality. The idea is that it's sort of the opposite of creativity and wonder. It's the therapist berating a child for having an imaginary friend, an art teacher tearing up a picture a student drew because it wasn't what the assignment asked for, or maybe a struggling artist throwing in the towel and working a 9 to 5 because they gave up on their dreams. When I see a character encounter something strange, something they have certainly never encountered before, something they have no answers for, and their only reply is to shrug and say that Paragon is a strange place, and carry on like it was just another day in Paragon?

 

I think Banality.

 

The reason why I started with pointing out how tiny the metahuman population is compared to everyone else and why Paragon and Etoli are unique compared to the rest of the world is because I feel like it's something players often take for granted. Sure, people say, "Welcome to Paragon," when someone comments on how weird something is, but it's a phrase used so often in relation to every type of weird that it almost becomes a thought stopping phrase when faced with something strange. 

 

To help put this into context, I have a civvie character from the UK and it was actually genuinely refreshing for a career hero to admit to her that he wasn't really sure how to talk to someone that wasn't also a hero. So isolated in his bubble of who he interacts with that talking to someone that doesn't fight for the city made him feel off kilter. Likewise, I've noticed that other players seem to genuinely enjoy her reactions to the weirdness around her as the crazy that can happen around Paragon is so alien to her.

 

Everyone reading this has doubtlessly had an experience where you have a character with some weird trait and, upon meeting them, another character was just like, "whatever." It feels awful because it makes you feel like you didn't actually make something unique and attention grabbing. It can be even more devastating if it's in relation to a story arc you're running and that reaction is in relation to the threat you've put before the protagonists. It becomes an arms race to create more and more outlandish story beats to try and breach that jaded persona that so many characters have garnered.

 

However, I don't think it's your fault. We (that is to say the players) are just so used to existing and playing in the world of CoX that we take for granted the thrill and danger that comes with the territory. For every person who speaks about Hamidon, a giant incomprehensible monster that controls one of the greatest threats against humanity and has taken over the world in other dimensions, with fear there is someone else who shrugs and says that they beat Hamidon up every night in Hamidon raids that are, admittedly, not run as nightly IC events. For every character that meets some terrifying monster and shows genuine anxiety, there's another that prepares like they were just about to take down another Skull.

 

Can this be a serious character trait? Certainly! In fact, there could be really interesting stories to be told about someone so jaded by the world that they struggle to emotionally connect with others. However it happens so often in roleplay that, even if everyone that does it says it's a character trait, I wonder how often it actually is.

 

3. Some Examples
Back on Live, I distinctly remember the lead-up to Dark Astoria's "revitalization" into what it is today. We had a decent idea of what was going to happen, but only broad strokes. Roleplayers that acknowledged something was coming ICly had characters frantically try and figure out what was going to happen and prevent it. An effort the players knew was a doomed endeavor, but one that made Mot's rise all the more meaningful to them.

Mot was spoken about like a boogeyman and most of everyone treated sorties into Dark Astoria with the utmost seriousness. Generally, even after the community kind of acknowledged that Mot was officially defeated, people still treated the zone with a great deal of caution. What changed? Time changed. As Incarnates got fleshed out, so too did the difficulty of the zone falter. As that happened, the attitude characters had kind of shifted with it. It just became another hazard zone.

 

Hamidon is another great example of this. Hamidon used to be treated with, arguably, even more hesitation and fear than Mot was. Much like Mot, that time was when fighting him wasn't a nightly event that could be completed without much planning. Before he got a major nerf, fighting him was a huge undertaking. Even after the nerf, fighting him was still a difficult task. Once again, now that Hamidon can be taken down on a nightly basis relatively quickly (thanks in large part to Lore pets), I've seen more and more characters shrugging away the threat he poses.

 

Lord Recluse was also an example of this back when the gradual power creep of the game hadn't made the final confrontation just another TF boss fight. Despite being one of the most powerful men on the planet, on par with Statesman, people look to the few missions where you are capable of beating him up one on one but forget the context that comes with it. Others think of the raid on Grandville as just another TF, just another Ms. Liberty run, and defeating him just another Tuesday. Because it's so easy, people forget who they're fighting.

 

Rularuu in particular is a very interesting example because while people will generally take him seriously in character, they often don't realize the abject threat he poses even when contained within his dimension. There's plenty of lore that suggests simply existing within his domain and straying too far from Firebase Zulu can have a directly negative consequence on the psyche through simple passive exposure to his will. But, of course, the zone isn't really traveled much these days. What was once an end game zone is now more of a monument to a simpler time for the MMO.

 

4. What's the Problem With Being Jaded?
Some level of jading will inevitably happen to a character. It's the consequence of constantly facing threats and encountering oddities. The issue I see is more so when a character becomes so jaded that nothing really phases them anymore or even garners a reaction beyond dull surprise. Sure, they might frequently fight Council and the sight of a War Wolf isn't going to make them scared shitless anymore, but just look at what they're fighting. Super soldiers are shooting at you! Giant wolves are charging you! Nictus are shooting dark clouds of bad energy at you! More often than not, this is a situation that could kill you. You'd think that that kind of action would elicit something other than huffing for breath.

 

A character could say, "sounds like a Tuesday for Paragon" as part of their reaction as a means of accepting that some appearance of something that is outside of their norm is real. However, at some point, it just being "another day in paragon" comes off, at worst, more like a character has no survival instinct. More commonly, however, we come back to what I said before. Characters or stories with odd characteristics, beats, powers, traits, whatever...they're brushed off or only given a few seconds of appreciation before it gets chucked into the "Another Day in Paragon" pile. Another weird thing that the character or player doesn't feel like addressing, so it becomes some swamp gas hallucination that they'll never have to think about the moment they leave Pocket D. This can be really discouraging to people and can even make potential story arcs just not happen. I've had characters display clear red flags for something being wrong with them or in their life and they were basically ignored until I moved from red flags to a megaphone. Just presuming everything is normal and fine because things are always weird takes away likely realistic reactions to serious events. That's...just kind of sad.

 

It can also be a direct result of players becoming jaded to being able to steamroll so much of the game's content. I frequently rant and rave about how only looking at the game's lore through game mechanics can make you underestimate the threats the world has to offer, but that does very much come through how the character talks about things. I don't think it's a coincidence that just about every example of characters downplaying the threat posed by something in the game's lore has some kind of explanation that comes back to power creep and the gameplay experience for the player.

 

5. What Can Anyone Do?
I generally don't call this out in specific situations because I feel like it's not possible for me to tell when other people's characters are jaded to the point of it being a problem. Hell, finding the point of being jaded that makes sense for your character is such a case by case problem that the only advice I could give is, "Do what you think makes sense."

 

I don't just want to leave it there, though, because that doesn't help anyone. Instead, I'm going to ask you to REALLY ask yourself if you aren't underselling a reaction because you, as the character's writer, never see the moments where your character goes to the DMV to get their license renewed by some old lady in oversized glasses. Really ask yourself if your character would just brush something off because it's just not as impressive as other things they've seen.

 

Just as a random example, the employees at Linus Tech Tips review crazy stuff all of the time. They frequently do weird and wild experiments and set-ups. Their reactions, however, are almost always genuine and, while some aspects of what they do might be unremarkable to them after frequent exposure (such as just how much expensive equipment surrounds them every day), they still have a sense of wonder at the things they pull off. The same can be said of Mythbusters. I don't think I ever saw a moment where they weren't absolutely giddy at the weird stuff they were going to get up to that day...even if they got up to weird stuff the previous days before that.

 

If you aren't sure how to gauge how far from the norm something is, imagine how a random civilian living in Paragon might react to what your character is seeing. Just some cubicle worker stumbling across whatever is in front of your character. Then ask why specifically your character isn't having a serious reaction. The fact they've seen worse doesn't explain the lack of reaction, it only explains the lack of certain reactions. Really dig deep. Also, don't forget to consider what's normal to your specific character. A character who only deals in technology is likely going to get stunned by magic even if they are aware that magic can surprise them.

 

So just open your characters up to that sense of wonder. Don't just default to making every character get jaded to the weirdness that occurs in their day to day life as a hero (or villain). If they are jaded to hell and back, consider what complications that can cause when interacting with people who aren't. Simply waving strange things off and moving on is just closing the door to possible interactions.

 

There are few things in roleplay as sad to see as that.

This post is tangentially part of my series talking about roleplaying! You can see the full list of posts Here!

Edited March 15 by McSpazz
Fixed some grammar

[chase]

It's a difficult element to really nail down.   

In general, I play newbie heroes who are still a little star-struck at the company that they encounter day-to-day.   Sure, some (Tabby) may try to (poorly) play themselves off as less awestruck than others, and others (Misosazai) may be trying to display an aura of competent-mercenery, but there are usually cues given to show this is all an act.

My FBSA Jr Caseworker-  she's been thrown into the deep end from her first day at the FBSA, so she's probably the most jaded I've ever played, and I'm still foguring her out.  I had her panic more about having her first teenager case rather than that teen being a chronologically-displaced individual with signs of immortality.  That other stuff's so weird, she's not even going to try to wrap her head around it, but damn it, trying to be relatable to a TEENAGER- that's within the realm of reality... so that's terrifying.

More often than not, though, I (rightly or wrongly) tend to mirror off the other player - if they're showing no interest in dwelling on their own specialness, then my doing so may just be an annoying distraction.   I'll drop some subtle cues that all-may-not-be-as-well with my characters- that there IS something there, but if it isn't picked up on, I let it drop.

 

There's also the question of how long someone continues the "newbie" schtick.   Since I do tend to RP infrequently, I don't advance my characters' story as frequently as others.   Tabby's been a freshman in PCU for "a few months" since the launch of Homecoming.   She's shown elements of being star-struck by *real* heroes several times now, and probably could for some time longer, but for people who do roleplay thier characters as following a more strict timeline, seeing her "fangirl out" again like she did when Homecoming arrived might seem a bit out of place. 
 

[PeregrineFalcon]

I think something that a lot of roleplayers forget is that neither heroes nor villains can be that jaded. Being jaded is really lack of caring because of long experience with something.

 

Heroes care, because if they didn't they wouldn't be heroes. It's not like they have a job and are risking their lives for a paycheck. Heroes do what they do because they care. And villains care as well, about their own ego if nothing else. If they didn't they'd just stay home and do nothing as well. One of the hallmarks of being jaded is the lack of desire to put forth any effort, so if a character is really that jaded then why are they a hero or villain? Why aren't they off doing something that they do care about? Or taking a nap?

 

And yes, as the OP mentions, people who are interested in things, who care, don't like interacting with people who are jaded. There's only so many times that you can wonder about something only to get a firm "meh" from the jaded one before you either become discouraged or decide to just stop talking to the jaded one.

[McSpazz]

1 hour ago, chase said:

There's also the question of how long someone continues the "newbie" schtick.   Since I do tend to RP infrequently, I don't advance my characters' story as frequently as others.   Tabby's been a freshman in PCU for "a few months" since the launch of Homecoming.   She's shown elements of being star-struck by *real* heroes several times now, and probably could for some time longer, but for people who do roleplay thier characters as following a more strict timeline, seeing her "fangirl out" again like she did when Homecoming arrived might seem a bit out of place. 

 

One thing I tried to to point out (mainly with my example to LTT and Mythbusters) is that even if you become jaded to certain aspects of the job, that doesn't mean you become jaded to every aspect of it. Jaded responses are often a defense mechanism as well which, even if you are jaded in the moment, might not make you jaded to similar experiences or trauma in the future. It makes me think back to the discussions that were had under my MRP post.

Even if you no longer fangirl out over every hero you encounter, there might be certain heroes that you still freak out over meeting. Even if you're a battle hardened Vanguard combat medic and no longer flinch at the thought of combat, maybe you never quite get used to how people cry out in pain when you're trying to patch them up. The actual process of becoming jaded to something is rarely a universal thing from my experience.

 

59 minutes ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

I think something that a lot of roleplayers forget is that neither heroes nor villains can be that jaded. Being jaded is really lack of caring because of long experience with something.

 

Heroes care, because if they didn't they wouldn't be heroes. It's not like they have a job and are risking their lives for a paycheck. Heroes do what they do because they care. And villains care as well, about their own ego if nothing else. If they didn't they'd just stay home and do nothing as well. One of the hallmarks of being jaded is the lack of desire to put forth any effort, so if a character is really that jaded then why are they a hero or villain? Why aren't they off doing something that they do care about? Or taking a nap?

 

I'm not sure I'd say it's lack of care as much as lack of interest, but we're kind of splitting hairs at that point. From my experience, hero characters rarely get jaded to where they no longer have any interest in saving lives, but the threats they encounter suddenly don't matter. Everything blends together into a soup.

[Haijinx]

1 hour ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

I think something that a lot of roleplayers forget is that neither heroes nor villains can be that jaded. Being jaded is really lack of caring because of long experience with something.

 

Heroes care, because if they didn't they wouldn't be heroes. It's not like they have a job and are risking their lives for a paycheck. Heroes do what they do because they care. And villains care as well, about their own ego if nothing else. If they didn't they'd just stay home and do nothing as well. One of the hallmarks of being jaded is the lack of desire to put forth any effort, so if a character is really that jaded then why are they a hero or villain? Why aren't they off doing something that they do care about? Or taking a nap?

 

And yes, as the OP mentions, people who are interested in things, who care, don't like interacting with people who are jaded. There's only so many times that you can wonder about something only to get a firm "meh" from the jaded one before you either become discouraged or decide to just stop talking to the jaded one.

I'm very ambivalent, so I'll just hang out by Atlss. 

[Haijinx]

A vigilante could be jaded about the system, but driven to bust criminals.

 

This is basically Gotham heroes.

[kito]

I think it depends where you interact with people. I have many toons i lock at certain levels for me to feel like there "stuck" there at street level or what ever level often  lvls 2 (civ) 15 25 35 45 50+  and ya depending on the zone or type of toon I am will very on how people interact. Pocket D is full of all the greatest god who have seen it all can't even get someone to make sure you get home safe there. But if your working as a nurse/delivery girl/some random streamer looking into an urban legend in the sewer  and just got off work and need a hero to walk you home safe from steel to atlis you will find lots of people willing to walk and talk to out there heroic nature or tell you about a crazy thing that happen.  

Or a new sidekick who got in over there head and need and ask for a vet hero to help them out. I think the jaded nes comes more from where you trying to start up your rp. 

 

Could be wrong

[Latex]

Isn't it sort of easy for a character to be jaded about Heroes?

Problems still persist in Paragon, they always have and always do else it wouldn't be a City of Heroes. Paragon City aka Smithport has been the in-lore epicentre for Heroism and such for centuries yet there are still the common problems most other Cities face. You've got ultra-corrupt Crey Corp propagandising Heroes, you've Heroes that are text book narcissists, Heroes that aren't quite Heroes but Vigilantes and so much more. Be a Heroes friend and you may be a target for a Villain, because of all the Heroes in Paragon Villains are attracted, all the problems of the City seem to be swept into the sewer systems just below your feet.

You've horrors like the Vahzilok who are attracted to Paragon to carve up Heroes and make them Eidolons, you've the Skulls who's rite of initiation is to murder someone. You've War Walls around every district of the City 'for your safety', Superadine on the streets everywhere despite how many times Heroes tries to put it out, all whilst the latest caped crusader is getting a photo-op outside City Hall. Lets not mention the Brickstown Ziggurat being utterly pointless as jail breaks are constantly occurring. 

 

I love deep-diving into the specifics of Paragon like this and I play a Hero and a Villain that are on both opposite ends of the scale, the 'sponsored' Hero that's a good person but swiped up by the tornado of influence. The nefarious Villain that truly believes Heroes are a curse on the world than a benefit.

 

As a civilian the City of Heroes would be a hellish place to live, exciting but worrisome.

Saying that, playing as a civilian of some sort is very fun, I've done it a few times it's quite funny to get Hero reactions to some random on the street asking for an autograph.

[Crystal Dragon]

Something to point out that seems to be implied, jaded does not mean apathy or apathetical. One can be apathetical in view of the world but that does not mean the character themselves are necessarily jaded in portrayal. Just wanted to add that. Carry on!

[McSpazz]

 

5 hours ago, Latex said:

Isn't it sort of easy for a character to be jaded about Heroes?

Problems still persist in Paragon, they always have and always do else it wouldn't be a City of Heroes. Paragon City aka Smithport has been the in-lore epicentre for Heroism and such for centuries yet there are still the common problems most other Cities face. You've got ultra-corrupt Crey Corp propagandising Heroes, you've Heroes that are text book narcissists, Heroes that aren't quite Heroes but Vigilantes and so much more. Be a Heroes friend and you may be a target for a Villain, because of all the Heroes in Paragon Villains are attracted, all the problems of the City seem to be swept into the sewer systems just below your feet.

You've horrors like the Vahzilok who are attracted to Paragon to carve up Heroes and make them Eidolons, you've the Skulls who's rite of initiation is to murder someone. You've War Walls around every district of the City 'for your safety', Superadine on the streets everywhere despite how many times Heroes tries to put it out, all whilst the latest caped crusader is getting a photo-op outside City Hall. Lets not mention the Brickstown Ziggurat being utterly pointless as jail breaks are constantly occurring. 

 

Yes and no. Think of it like this: You could be surrounded by heroes and the concept of a super hero likely isn't surprising to you. The idea of someone who can fly, psychics, magic, etc. likely isn't going to be overly shocking. However...

 

On 3/17/2024 at 2:38 AM, kito said:

I think it depends where you interact with people. I have many toons i lock at certain levels for me to feel like there "stuck" there at street level or what ever level often  lvls 2 (civ) 15 25 35 45 50+  and ya depending on the zone or type of toon I am will very on how people interact. Pocket D is full of all the greatest god who have seen it all can't even get someone to make sure you get home safe there. But if your working as a nurse/delivery girl/some random streamer looking into an urban legend in the sewer  and just got off work and need a hero to walk you home safe from steel to atlis you will find lots of people willing to walk and talk to out there heroic nature or tell you about a crazy thing that happen.  

Or a new sidekick who got in over there head and need and ask for a vet hero to help them out. I think the jaded nes comes more from where you trying to start up your rp. 

@kito is far closer to what I'm getting at. What kind of things a civilian will see as far as "weird" activity goes is likely going to differ greatly from someone that frequently and intentionally interacts with it and sees things that might not make it to the papers.

I'll use Crey as an example:
A civilian is unlikely to know just how crooked of a company they are. Most who have negative opinions of the company likely view them as a really skeezy company who gets up to all sorts of bad behavior.
A street level hero will likely start noticing a lot of weird stuff connected to Crey but be unable to connect the dots.
A medium strength hero is likely aware that Crey does all sorts of illegal activity which they hide behind shell corps, but don't know the full extent.

A top tier hero as likely BEEN to some of the most heavily guarded Crey facilities and might have even gotten top executives arrested.

 

Of the examples you gave...well, the types of things you're jaded too still vary greatly.

 

Different factions are represented in different areas of the city. The kind of potential threats a civilian will encounter can vary wildly. While the game has random NPC's standing around at random locations and taking up space, remember that this is a video game. The only areas of the city that are likely as dangerous to just waltz around as it appears are likely hazard zones. So not only are civilians limited by zone as to what sorts of threats they count encounter, they could go quite a long time indeed before brushing against something that wants them dead or worse.

Superadine is actually a REALLY interesting point as, if you can believe it, its usage might have actually been WORSE in the past. According to the game's lore, it was being actively produced and distributed en mass with the intention of spreading it as far and wide as possible until it was finally shut down. Its effects are also far more widely understood which makes it a far less desirable drug to take blindly if you're trying to get bulked up. Given how much the game talks about Superadine and the efforts taken to curtail its usage (including some verbiage that resembles anti-drug campaigns of the real world), there has certainly been a great deal of general education around it (as this has been shown to reduce drug usage when paired with other preventative measures). So someone who was around in the 80's for its mass explosion of usage and the likely huge number of Trolls it created would likely have a different reaction to it than someone who wasn't.

If you want to get super complex, how jaded you are and what you are exposed to also differs based on who you interact with. A sidekick to a well known hero is going to be jaded to some concepts more than someone jumping into things solo for the first time.

Remember: your character, by the way the game is designed, is exposed to the full depth of what the world has to offer without many restrictions. Most people don't have that kind of opportunity.

[sbloyd]

I think if the inhabitants of Paragon - heroes included - weren't somewhat jaded they'd go insane.

 

There are literal demon-summoner street gangs at the lowest end.  In a vaccuum, that must cause a lot of hand-wringing; are these literal servants of the Devil? Extradimensional creatures claiming to be 'demons'?  Then as the threats rachet up, you get evil spirits posessing average citizens and summoning more, infections that wrack and twist citizens into the most terrifying threat seen in recent years (Lost/Rikti), fairly large street gangs of mutants roaming the streets (and more importantly from a RP perspective, giving a 'family' to ostracized mutant youngsters), all the way up to world-threatening monsters like the Devouring Earth stalking the fringes of urban areas.

 

From an out-of-game perspective it's all there to give our characters stuff to fight, but from an ingame perspective it must be terrifying to live in Paragon, where fascists demonstrate in the streets, Mafiosos and high-tech goons batter each other and cut deals in alleys, and you could get jumped on your way to your car by someone who plans to chop you into pieces for spares.

[McSpazz]

3 hours ago, sbloyd said:

I think if the inhabitants of Paragon - heroes included - weren't somewhat jaded they'd go insane.

 

There are literal demon-summoner street gangs at the lowest end.  In a vaccuum, that must cause a lot of hand-wringing; are these literal servants of the Devil? Extradimensional creatures claiming to be 'demons'?  Then as the threats rachet up, you get evil spirits posessing average citizens and summoning more, infections that wrack and twist citizens into the most terrifying threat seen in recent years (Lost/Rikti), fairly large street gangs of mutants roaming the streets (and more importantly from a RP perspective, giving a 'family' to ostracized mutant youngsters), all the way up to world-threatening monsters like the Devouring Earth stalking the fringes of urban areas.

 

From an out-of-game perspective it's all there to give our characters stuff to fight, but from an ingame perspective it must be terrifying to live in Paragon, where fascists demonstrate in the streets, Mafiosos and high-tech goons batter each other and cut deals in alleys, and you could get jumped on your way to your car by someone who plans to chop you into pieces for spares.

 

Entirely fair! I hope that I made it clear, but I do think some amount of jading does occur. What I'm arguing for is to consider the depth of the jading. What I want to encourage people to avoid is to let characters become so jaded to the threats in the world that they hardly flinch when facing it.

Though, it's worth remembering that there is some evidence that, for some, the threats of the world has kind of done the opposite of jading and made people instead paranoid and even bigoted. The billboards that read "Earth for Humans" and the existence of the Malta show as much.

All of this is just to say that the reactions to the world can vary greatly and it can lead to more interesting interactions to consider each new encounter and how it affects your character rather than lump most things into a similar pile.

[kito]

See i always assumed the city was mostly safe.  The mass gangs to fight are there for players to level on I would say there is probably only 10 crimes going on any hour or so in the city day or night. The hellions lost a lot of ground and if you stop them in the games new lvls 1-10 mish they're not or less done. Skulls are tying to get into dyne but there gang is splintered at best with alot of in fighting and different views no true leaders. The trolls where a big issue in the "80s" but have been on the down turn and even as a gang they have no real plans just crime for drugs, there green skin makes them easy to avoide. (It's not easy being green) Warriors expanded our of the city to try and find success and tsoo stalled till da and then I think where defeated.  That's all the "street level" problems you will find and there not the worse

 

The big threats the family COT rikti Malta are still a split but not a big issues I always assumed there spots in the world are because it's a game as rikti would be shot at on sight and Malta would be after them to as far as there goals the war ended again years ago we just have it because it's a game. The family has gained power but still is not interested in expanding leaving the cot as the only cradable threat to the city but they also have no real goals just gain money and power some people might get snatched up for them. 

 

The joke villans carnival nemesis Freakshow vahzilok  or I guess guess comic book villans. Are all relatively cannon fodder. We did get some plans brewing between the vahzilok and Freakshow but that seemed more for survival then expansion with the great dr in jail the vahzilok are dying out and mad dr is already a very limited amount of people I would guess. Freakshow are fun but aimless they break into the zig for money and kick I don't think they have ever had a plan there just cypunk batman beyond "jokers" and do things for fun. Nemesis is just the butt of the joke that he did everything..even in the lore and coh bible it seems they left alot of back doors to just say "it was Agatha all along" but really most the things here and the top level villans mentions before are not interested in normal people at all. 

 

For normal people the biggest threat is the 5th as it's actively recurring them. And even then they seems to only get some of the more "redpill incell" stereotype.  

 

Crey are the most evil but the most least caring on hurting the people of the city as they also just want there money, sure they might accidently drop toxic waste and kill a few hundred thousand people but they will fix it up regenderfy the neighborhood make there property values go up and sell there building to get into a better cheaper neighborhood and do it all again. If anything they are building the city 😉

 

I think until the villan factions get some updates for 2020 and maybe some goals, plans, leaders, infrastructure, there is not much the heros can do but put out the fires they bump into, and the citizens would see so very few of the fires first hand.

[TorrentYed]

The element of this post that most interests me is the idea of jadedness in the context of other players.

 

I'll admit that when I join a team and the party banter is primarily the flavor of: '*Yawn,* boring, is this it?' I'm guilty of an eye roll, but I find that sort of back-and-forth pretty innocuous overall.

 

That said, reacting to another's character or plot with something like—well I'll just pull an example from the main post:

 

On 3/15/2024 at 10:07 AM, McSpazz said:

Everyone reading this has doubtlessly had an experience where you have a character with some weird trait and, upon meeting them, another character was just like, "whatever."

 

—i.e. reacting with a no sell, well, I find that can feel more egregious, antipodal to 'Yes, and—'.

 

Now, I'll quickly cede that this can, deliberately, be a softer mechanism of shutting down a topic or conversation if one isn't interested. An example of player jadedness informing character jadedness, sure, because as a player maybe you don't feel like roleplaying your character fawning over the random deity claiming that they alone are solely responsible for the good weather at the picnic you're all attending, you're welcome. (Or maybe you do! It could make for a fascinating meteorological conversation and my intent is not to try to mark any definite lines in the sand of an 'acceptable premise.')

 

But returning to the idea of the no sell with another quoted selection:

 

On 3/15/2024 at 10:07 AM, McSpazz said:

Simply waving strange things off and moving on is just closing the door to possible interactions.

 

I agree wholeheartedly. It's closing the door to possible interactions, to possible friendships. In fact, I've seen this sort of behavior be the death knell of quite a number of groups.

 

My most played characters, necessarily, have become inured to facets of meta-powered life. They've tangled with Malta, and Crey's illicit divisions, and the Circle of Thorns, and so on. To wit, they've got proverbial callouses.

 

But they probably hadn't met someone with a pompadour that's painted their power armor like a hot rod. They probably hadn't met someone that needs to quaff an experimental serum to grow 12-feet tall every time they want to do a mission. But even if they have, I, as a player, can still make the decision to have my characters respond with individual curiosity about what's unique to the other person's situation, even if it isn't exactly with jaw-dropped and wide-eyed wonder in every case.

 

Just like in real life, if someone were to tell me they're playing, say, Disco Elysium, my response won't be to say, 'Oh I've already beaten that game.' My response is going to be to ask about their thoughts and feelings about it, because if they've brought it up, they probably want to do just that.

[McSpazz]

20 hours ago, kito said:

See i always assumed the city was mostly safe.  The mass gangs to fight are there for players to level on I would say there is probably only 10 crimes going on any hour or so in the city day or night. The hellions lost a lot of ground and if you stop them in the games new lvls 1-10 mish they're not or less done. Skulls are tying to get into dyne but there gang is splintered at best with alot of in fighting and different views no true leaders. The trolls where a big issue in the "80s" but have been on the down turn and even as a gang they have no real plans just crime for drugs, there green skin makes them easy to avoide. (It's not easy being green) Warriors expanded our of the city to try and find success and tsoo stalled till da and then I think where defeated.  That's all the "street level" problems you will find and there not the worse

 

The big threats the family COT rikti Malta are still a split but not a big issues I always assumed there spots in the world are because it's a game as rikti would be shot at on sight and Malta would be after them to as far as there goals the war ended again years ago we just have it because it's a game. The family has gained power but still is not interested in expanding leaving the cot as the only cradable threat to the city but they also have no real goals just gain money and power some people might get snatched up for them. 

 

I think that your overall post really summarizes a lot of my own  feelings on how the city actually is in terms of lore. If the streets were literally filled with roaming gangs and monsters, we'd need the national guard in addition to the heroes. All well said.

 

1 hour ago, TorrentYed said:

I agree wholeheartedly. It's closing the door to possible interactions, to possible friendships. In fact, I've seen this sort of behavior be the death knell of quite a number of groups.

 

My most played characters, necessarily, have become inured to facets of meta-powered life. They've tangled with Malta, and Crey's illicit divisions, and the Circle of Thorns, and so on. To wit, they've got proverbial callouses.

 

But they probably hadn't met someone with a pompadour that's painted their power armor like a hot rod. They probably hadn't met someone that needs to quaff an experimental serum to grow 12-feet tall every time they want to do a mission. But even if they have, I, as a player, can still make the decision to have my characters respond with individual curiosity about what's unique to the other person's situation, even if it isn't exactly with jaw-dropped and wide-eyed wonder in every case.

 

Just like in real life, if someone were to tell me they're playing, say, Disco Elysium, my response won't be to say, 'Oh I've already beaten that game.' My response is going to be to ask about their thoughts and feelings about it, because if they've brought it up, they probably want to do just that.

 

I'll admit that this post is biased in terms of where my own characters have fallen in terms of interactions. There was a time when I was quite guilty of making my characters super jaded and I didn't realize the importance of, if a character is going to be jaded, to follow things up with a yes-and. What you said in the quote, most certainly, is what I want players of characters who are jaded to try and both recognize and lean into when roleplaying.

You can both be jaded but still provide reactions that the other play can play off of.

Also, to be clear, I don't want anyone to think I have an issue with characters that are jaded as a concept. I could have framed my post around extreme ambivalence, but that's not usually how I see it explained.

[kito]

I think again some of it stems from not spitting your IC and ooc knowledge.  

 

Part of why I lock levels is you truly forget how little you know about the city at LVL 15-20. More so when you have beat everything 30+ times.  

Alot of my heros have IC never been to crim don't really believe in magic think the COT is a boogeyman story and mostly deal with skulls/trolls/tsoo/outcast (and if you ever loved to 25 with just street crime it can take forever) now as a player I have used them to do many outher things they have been both red and blue side ooc. And I think that is part of the jadeness like say the manticor tf. It probably ended well before 2019 as far as in game time so really every hero in homecoming has proably never done it IC or been to the warzone or seen the pretorean war alot for the thing you have over seen IC you probably never seen you just would hear stories about maybe bump into the odd vet. But people don't really split the game like that. There toon has done every TF IC and really what would the odds of that be if there just a hero in the city and not a main Character of a story or player. Most the lore you would only get bits and pieces to its not in a wiki.  

 

I mostly count that as a lack of rp areas in the game tho. We have I think 2 in game SG bases people could "hang out at" the rest you need to know SG password and such. So people tend to just skip alot of casual rp for personal rp and that will leave you jaded

[Latex]

It's probably easier to view this through the scope of the Hero oppose to the Villain, I think that's being overlooked and Heroes are seen as 'the winners' of Paragon?

The entire game universe (even the actual universe/cross dimension) is one big tug of war, the Hero squishes one bug and two more pop up, the Villainous pc/npc/groups/corps/cosmic-beings never stop hitting, thus a Heroes job is never done there is always a new threat, be it re-emerging or novel. Try as the Heroes might Paragon City would never be safe, even if you disregard the idea that game mechanics take precedence (e.g. Perez Park has a gang problem, or Superadine is never off the streets because Troll raves are still a thing).

 

In RP I've always dismissed the entire idea of other player-characters claiming to of 'defeated X' or 'dealt with Y' when it's related to ingame (non-custom) Villain groups, this actually goes for multiple games too, I recall in WoW some RP'ers claiming they killed the Lich King in WOTLK when they'd completed the raid, same thing. The world is persistent and shared, claiming you defeated Dr. Vahzilok at the Faultline Dam is equally as eye-rolling as saying you defeated the Lich King, I usually play these things off as my character assuming they defeated the Doc, or that Vahzilok narrowly got away etc.

 

Point being is that threats aren't actually defeated unless it's part of a custom plot with custom character villains or heroes. Kings Row is still a dump full of Skulls and Superadine, the sewers are still filled with the Lost, Baumtown still hasn't been rebuilt, and you're dealing with the Rikti Mothership threat for the 45th time without ever 'stopping' it completely. The grand excuse for which is that neither Hero or Villain completely win, they suffer setbacks or are temporarily dealt with, but they're always back.

Of course the lack of actual solid wins (actual definitive closure) might make Heroes - and Villains - jaded, the world needs to persist for the sake of others. I think that's why plot stuff and pc Hero, pc Villain works by far the best, especially if the fate of these characters is on the line.

 

Edited March 24 by Latex

[Vic Raiden]

See, this last post here perfectly describes why I used to be jaded towards MMORPGs as a whole before hopping on CoH: nothing the players do ever really matters because  either the world is permanently stuck in one place so that every player can do every quest, or it was a RP event which will never be acknowledged by anyone outside a particular group. And since none of the players' achievements really stick barring the phasing in the starter zones, it's not hard to just stop caring.

[McSpazz]

11 hours ago, Latex said:

In RP I've always dismissed the entire idea of other player-characters claiming to of 'defeated X' or 'dealt with Y' when it's related to ingame (non-custom) Villain groups, this actually goes for multiple games too, I recall in WoW some RP'ers claiming they killed the Lich King in WOTLK when they'd completed the raid, same thing. The world is persistent and shared, claiming you defeated Dr. Vahzilok at the Faultline Dam is equally as eye-rolling as saying you defeated the Lich King, I usually play these things off as my character assuming they defeated the Doc, or that Vahzilok narrowly got away etc.

 

Point being is that threats aren't actually defeated unless it's part of a custom plot with custom character villains or heroes. Kings Row is still a dump full of Skulls and Superadine, the sewers are still filled with the Lost, Baumtown still hasn't been rebuilt, and you're dealing with the Rikti Mothership threat for the 45th time without ever 'stopping' it completely. The grand excuse for which is that neither Hero or Villain completely win, they suffer setbacks or are temporarily dealt with, but they're always back.

Of course the lack of actual solid wins (actual definitive closure) might make Heroes - and Villains - jaded, the world needs to persist for the sake of others. I think that's why plot stuff and pc Hero, pc Villain works by far the best, especially if the fate of these characters is on the line.

 

 

I think there is a reasonable push and pull at play and I definitely agree that what you are describing can be a problem. I don't think there's a perfect solution to separating your character from their apparent achievements within the game's standard narrative, but one of the best I've seen actually came out of the FFXIV community. While some of your earlier achievements in the game's story could be shared (such as participating in battles and the like), it becomes less and less viable as the story goes on until you're literally saving the world. Thus, a saying arose: Even if you are a Warrior of Light, you're not THE Warrior of Light. It's entirely possible for a character to have done amazing things, tangled with immense foes, and all without claiming the spot of the singular or one of the characters that did "the thing".

Which brings me to...
 

4 hours ago, Vic Raiden said:

See, this last post here perfectly describes why I used to be jaded towards MMORPGs as a whole before hopping on CoH: nothing the players do ever really matters because  either the world is permanently stuck in one place so that every player can do every quest, or it was a RP event which will never be acknowledged by anyone outside a particular group. And since none of the players' achievements really stick barring the phasing in the starter zones, it's not hard to just stop caring.

 

This is actually part of the reason I encourage people to push their roleplay beyond what the game's mechanics and baked in stories give you. The world is only static if you focus on the constants and the things beyond your control. Not every achievement your character has will be known to the whole world and not every threat they face will be widely known. Maybe your character has been fighting a constant war against a Crey subsidiary or maybe you're fighting a high ranking Arachnos operative who oversees a special ops team out in Etoli.

What you are describing is a similar struggle found within fanfiction communities. Wanting to write a story that feels part of the source material but not so in lockstep that it feels like you're somehow trying to replace it. There's a reason why the more "cringe" fanfiction people look at involve writing for the original cast as if they were just another element in the fan fiction.

 

You don't have to have a story change the entire world to leave an impact or to be meaningful. 

[Vic Raiden]

Right. I figure my main problem is just with the suspension of disbelief, then. I find it hard to believe I'm achieving anything significant when I don't even get to see any consequences of my actions. I utterly cripple a major enemy group's operations in an area, yet they're still going around at full force. Even ignoring the fact enemy presence is greatly exaggerated for gameplay reasons, it just doesn't quite click to me.

 

It was even worse on the very few occasions I used Ouroboros to complete an arc I accidentally outleveled, because then I didn't even get acknowledgement from the questgiver that I did, in fact, complete the arc.

[Latex]

In that vein I always find the 'cosmic-level' plots boring to take IC, sort of the same reason I do not have an Incarnate character (IC atleast) the idea of Godlike characters raises far too many implausible questions and aren't often earned or explained well. Going a bit offtopic here but those grounded plots on even street-tier or mid-level Heroism (or Villainy) are infinitely more engaging than the Incarnate Character ego measuring contests, easier to serve plots, broader scope of situations, more character focus, more difficulties, more accessible. You will often find these 'Incarnate Tier' Heroes/Villains as plot drivers in superhero media; Dr. Manhattan, Homelander, Superman to name a few, if an entire group is on that level it very quickly loses what makes it interesting, if they're not driving the plot they aren't serving a purpose.

 

Not sure where I was going with this! But it helps make the world feel less static when you focus on the mid-level Heroics, because you cannot truly effect the persistent world and lay a claim to cosmic-level (server wide/lore wide) plot advancements.

[Videra]

On 3/24/2024 at 12:00 PM, Latex said:

In RP I've always dismissed the entire idea of other player-characters claiming to of 'defeated X' or 'dealt with Y' when it's related to ingame (non-custom) Villain groups, this actually goes for multiple games too, I recall in WoW some RP'ers claiming they killed the Lich King in WOTLK when they'd completed the raid, same thing. The world is persistent and shared, claiming you defeated Dr. Vahzilok at the Faultline Dam is equally as eye-rolling as saying you defeated the Lich King, I usually play these things off as my character assuming they defeated the Doc, or that Vahzilok narrowly got away etc.

 

 

I feel like there are some incidents of this that can be considered fairly reasonable. Though this largely enters the territory of conjecture and head-canon, I could absolutely see the events of ITF being something of a causal 'loop'. Traveling back to Cimerora is presented as a fairly fixed point for the most part - it wouldn't be unreasonable for those events to repeat. For the names and faces of the heroes who knocked over Romulus and stopped the Fifth Column to change and blur regularly.

Other examples I could see repeating are things like Synapse, or Citadel. There's room to consider these pieces of content as viable in-character, and I'd also absolutely think that pieces of content more overtly accessible in Ouroboros could be doable along the same line of thought I used RE: ITF.

I tend to hand-wave certain aspects of content - treat Vahzilok in an IC Posi 1 as being a particularly strong lieutenant, so on. There's a simple reality in that - for example - my Warshade is nowhere near as powerful in-character as she is mechanically. I can animation cancel my way to casting five powers every two seconds as much as I want, but that girl is someone who was just a REALLY unlucky sex worker. She doesn't think like a fighter, she isn't a fighter - and she can barely keep her cool in real combat.

Edited March 28 by Videra

[kito]

5 hours ago, Videra said:

 

I feel like there are some incidents of this that can be considered fairly reasonable. Though this largely enters the territory of conjecture and head-canon, I could absolutely see the events of ITF being something of a causal 'loop'. Traveling back to Cimerora is presented as a fairly fixed point for the most part - it wouldn't be unreasonable for those events to repeat. For the names and faces of the heroes who knocked over Romulus and stopped the Fifth Column to change and blur regularly.

Other examples I could see repeating are things like Synapse, or Citadel. There's room to consider these pieces of content as viable in-character, and I'd also absolutely think that pieces of content more overtly accessible in Ouroboros could be doable along the same line of thought I used RE: ITF.

I tend to hand-wave certain aspects of content - treat Vahzilok in an IC Posi 1 as being a particularly strong lieutenant, so on. There's a simple reality in that - for example - my Warshade is nowhere near as powerful in-character as she is mechanically. I can animation cancel my way to casting five powers every two seconds as much as I want, but that girl is someone who was just a REALLY unlucky sex worker. She doesn't think like a fighter, she isn't a fighter - and she can barely keep her cool in real combat.

 

 

I never mind one TF or event. But all of them. Even with Oro, how many heros have done the Oro mish to get the portal over just asking for one to drop.  

And even then sure maybe your hero is like marvels exiles where you where plucked out of time or a different dimension and you work for oro and did everything. But how many might that be 6-25 people in the city. And how many times have you run into that back story for me personally it is zero. 

 

But yes IC power and ooc power to toons are often very different we are aware it's a game and we don't want to be a bother on outher players because of how we rp. So we min max some or make our toons much stronger then they should be to do content for fun. That is why I like the three build I can always leave one at w/e level I want and as strong as I want for IC power and if in a heavy rp setting or with friends I don't need to change to my min/maxed builds. 

 

 For the hand waving you can justify anything with effort. If your "superman" toons falls in a mish the. IC he never fell he had to get people to safety ect. But as I think MCspazz posted about before head cannon is tricky

Edited March 28 by kito

[McSpazz]

12 hours ago, kito said:

For the hand waving you can justify anything with effort. If your "superman" toons falls in a mish the. IC he never fell he had to get people to safety ect. But as I think MCspazz posted about before head cannon is tricky

One of my earlier posts was on headcannon, actually. Just about anything in the game can be presented in a way that can make accepting it as cannon for your character with a little twisting and altering presentation. However, unfortunately, thinking it out and actually implementing it is often more work than people are doing what feels like a one-off that won't really be mentioned again.

 

But these things stack up. Even if you don't directly reference an old Ms. Liberty run, you're still likely going to kind of subconsciously remember beating the snot out of Arachnos' highest lieutenants, the Patrons, and then Recluse. The ease of which these fights that should, as far as the lore is concerned, but extremely difficult is something that can linger in the mind.

 

Hard fights and losses stick to the brain better than easy victories. I imagine that the more hard mode TF's get released and the more new content touching on old threats, the less pronounced the issue will be in the long run. Here's hoping, anyway.

[kito]

6 hours ago, McSpazz said:

One of my earlier posts was on headcannon, actually. Just about anything in the game can be presented in a way that can make accepting it as cannon for your character with a little twisting and altering presentation. However, unfortunately, thinking it out and actually implementing it is often more work than people are doing what feels like a one-off that won't really be mentioned again.

 

But these things stack up. Even if you don't directly reference an old Ms. Liberty run, you're still likely going to kind of subconsciously remember beating the snot out of Arachnos' highest lieutenants, the Patrons, and then Recluse. The ease of which these fights that should, as far as the lore is concerned, but extremely difficult is something that can linger in the mind.

 

Hard fights and losses stick to the brain better than easy victories. I imagine that the more hard mode TF's get released and the more new content touching on old threats, the less pronounced the issue will be in the long run. Here's hoping, anyway.

 

 

I would dubt it, 

 one, hard mode is not played by I would guess say most players  ( 30% of the server never seem even get to LVL 50) (in everlasting)   

Two, it's not that hard. The first time there out it might be but the people who play them ever night learn the ins and outs of them in maybe a week. Then when a casual wants to try one we join with them as there hosting and told the what to do an not do finish it in under a hour.  

 Three. If your doing hard mode stuff your probably min/maxed to all hell so the rest of the game is baby mode to you. 

 Four. It does not fix the issues of people separating IC and ooc as they play.

 

 

 

 

Edited March 29 by kito