Mastermind Pets need survivability buffs

[Rudra]

1 hour ago, gameboy1234 said:

Other ideas: make the pet buffs inherent rather than targeted click powers.  If the MM has the upgrade, the pets get the buff when summoned.  This shouldn't even need line of sight or anything, just make the check as part of the summon process.

Sorry, I should have commented on this sooner. The devs have already said they will not do that.

[Glacier Peak]

On 3/29/2024 at 12:19 PM, TheSpiritFox said:

Given that we are balanced around having to resummon, and it takes time in a fight to do that, pets should not be getting one shot. 

 

Controller pets have gotten tons of buffs not just on Homecoming but on Live itself, and MM pets got ignored every single round of those buffs like we did not exist. 

 

MM pets should not be getting one shot by anything that looks at them funny, not when you're adding shit like the trigun with 90% resistance to all damage so that it has staying power. 

 

Options

1) 50% base resistance for T1s, 33% for T2s, and 25% for T3s to all damage types.

2) Remove level shifts from all MM pets and make all pets permanently the same level as the master as in incarnate content, where level shifts got removed because of this exact problem. 

3) Damage gating, no attack can do more than 1/3 or 1/2 of a pets health in one hit. 

 

Not optional

- Pet def and res uniques are hugely beneficial and yet not all pet sets have the ability to mule them. Modify Serum, Repair drone, fortify pack, and smoke flash need to be able to mule pet uniques. I dont care if it breaks the usual rules, dont care if you just code it so that ONLY the uniques from those sets can be slotted, all mm sets need to be able to mule uniques without having to attempt to shove up to 6 def/res uniques into actual pets slotting, compromising other slotting options that thugs, demons, and necro all get by comparison. 

Teaming will also resolve what you're describing. 

[GM Tock]

Removed some posts.  Brought orange slices and mint tea.  Take a breath.  We're all here for a video game.  And exhale.

[lemming]

51 minutes ago, GM Tock said:

Removed some posts.  Brought orange slices and mint tea.  Take a breath.  We're all here for a video game.  And exhale.

Orange with Mint! You monster!

[Captain Fabulous]

/powercreep

[DrRocket]

I think the whole pet characteristics need to be truly re-looked.

 

I find pets besides being totally brittle, their DPS is rather mediocre. I have experimented with them to get an idea of what their combined DPS is like by attacking a single mob with all my pets (I killed all the other mobs) and did not use my own attacks to help them. It was, frankly, boring to see them gum the mob to death, since they obviously have no teeth. My observation is that between all of them they do "Moderate" damage, which is very sad, since they are supposed to be the MMs main way to do DPS. 

 

I would suggest that the minion pets do light damage each, not between all 3; the LTs should do High damage each,  and the boss pet do Superior damage in order to give the MM some teeth.

 

Their hit points can be fixed as those given to mobs of their quality and level, but their defense, resistance, endurance are based on the player's stats and not left for target practice quality stats.

 

Also a new attach command is needed, where they automatically attack whatever I have targeted, and switch as I do, with out me constantly telling them.

 

Also give them a bit better AI, if they are range attacking, have them do so at range, not run next to the mob and then range attack.

 

Only a few suggestions...

 

V/R

 

Ps: As a manner of practice, the only use I have for pets are as damage soakers, that is I play them defensively, so any damage I take its shared with them, after that I could care less what they do, they are useless. I instead place great focus on making sure the DPS powers I do get are IO slotted to the best possible way, because if I want DPS, it has to be through me alone, and not depend on the worthless pets.

 

Edited March 31 by DrRocket

[Rudra]

13 minutes ago, DrRocket said:

I think the whole pet characteristics need to be truly re-looked.

 

I find pets besides being totally brittle, their DPS is rather mediocre. I have experimented with them to get an idea of what their combined DPS is like by attacking a single mob with all my pets (I killed all the other mobs) and did not use my own attacks to help them. It was, frankly, boring to see them gum the mob to death, since they obviously have no teeth. My observation is that between all of them they do "Moderate" damage, which is very sad, since they are supposed to be the MMs main way to do DPS.

I have to disagree. MM pets do fine for damage. My MMs are doing most of the damage when I'm running around with my friends, and when they run an MM instead and the rest of us are not, it is typically just Blasters and Scrappers outdoing the MMs for damage. Pump up the pets' damage and the MMs will outkill everything on the map. The thing that mainly keeps MM pets from just obliterating everything is that when you have all 6 pets and are running at +0 difficulty, the enemies are +2 to your T1s and +1 to your T2s. And as enemy levels go up in relation to your MM, those differences ramp up. So your pets hit less often than your MM character or any other AT. Especially if you find yourself on a +4 non-incarnate team so your T1s are trying to hit +6 enemies and your T2s are trying to hit +5 enemies. That is what mostly slows MM pets down, not their damage. (And that is why calls for improving MMs most often revolve around keeping pets alive.)

 

Edited March 31 by Rudra
Edited to add missing "m" to "my".

[Rudra]

16 minutes ago, DrRocket said:

Also give them a bit better AI, if they are range attacking, have them do so at range, not run next to the mob and then range attack.

Set them to Stay while in Aggressive. They will maintain range and just keep shooting. I do this on ITFs for instance so the crystals don't kill off my pets when they explode.

 

17 minutes ago, DrRocket said:

Ps: As a manner of practice, the only use I have for pets are as damage soakers, that is I play them defensively, so any damage I take its shared with them, after that I could care less what they do, they are useless. I instead place great focus on making sure the DPS powers I do get are IO slotted to the best possible way, because if I want DPS, it has to be through me alone, and not depend on the worthless pets.

You're entitled to play however you want, and I personally am also almost always in Bodyguard Mode. (Though I often break Bodyguard Mode to direct my pets to focus on key targets in several fights.) And I also lend my own attacks to my pets to expedite dropping targets. However, as a matter of opinion, I disagree that MM pets are useless. Just positing my opinion on the matter in contrast to your own.

[wjrasmussen]

7 hours ago, GM Tock said:

Removed some posts.  Brought orange slices and mint tea.  Take a breath.  We're all here for a video game.  And exhale.

Where are my orange slices?
 

[wjrasmussen]

On 3/30/2024 at 6:02 PM, Captain Fabulous said:

/powercreep

Great character name.

[tidge]

I don't think there is any need to boost MM Henchmen "Survivability".... especially since

• the homecoming resummon times are now super short
• most buffs applied to henchmen hit them all
• the "survivability" enhancement pieces are pretty easy to come by
• players have a very wide variety of secondaries and power pools (also Incarnates, for those that rush right to level 50+) to choose from

Learning how to play with henchmen, across all content, is a pretty important part of the MM experience. More that any other AT, MMs have to be able to adjust their play style across all content in ways that other ATs don't have to... this is a feature of the AT not a bug.

 

[Rudra]

4 hours ago, tidge said:

I don't think there is any need to boost MM Henchmen "Survivability".... especially since

• the homecoming resummon times are now super short
• most buffs applied to henchmen hit them all
• the "survivability" enhancement pieces are pretty easy to come by
• players have a very wide variety of secondaries and power pools (also Incarnates, for those that rush right to level 50+) to choose from

Learning how to play with henchmen, across all content, is a pretty important part of the MM experience. More that any other AT, MMs have to be able to adjust their play style across all content in ways that other ATs don't have to... this is a feature of the AT not a bug.

 

For the most part, I agree with you. Learning how to control your pets and then actively doing so goes a long way to 'fixing' a lot of the problems I hear from others about MMs. However, there are enemies that insta-kill all your pets in 1 go and can do so with multiple powers unless your pets are out of range. And for beasts and ninjas? That isn't really an option. Usually when that happens, I either just re-summon and keep going or run away if re-summoning isn't an option, typically because a random sneeze anywhere within the country will finish killing my character at that point in time. However, sometimes you're fighting an enemy and while your MM can keep his/her/their/its HP at a good spot, the pets are being massacred wholesale on a constant basis. Ranged MMs can just pull back and summon at a distance, ordering pets to stay at that distance, but melee MMs, the ninjas and beasts, have to keep their pets in melee to do damage to the target. And those melee pets keep getting obliterated with every attack from said target. (Yes, you can order ninjas to stay at a distance too at a hefty cost in their damage, but beasts lack ranged powers outside of the T3.) So your MM is stuck just constantly hitting summon powers, not even upgrading, just summon T1s, now T2s, now T1s, now T3, now T1s, now T2, ad infinitum. On a team this is more manageable because the MM can choose to focus more on using their own attacks and their secondaries to support the team, occasionally replacing their missing pets. When solo though, this makes some enemies extremely annoying to deal with.

[Lockely]

On 3/30/2024 at 5:32 PM, Rudra said:

If your pets are dying because you leveled up and not from enemy inflicted damage, you need to report it as a bug. The only time your character changing levels causes them to go away is when you level down. If you level up, they just remain at their current level until you re-summon them or zone.

They're talking about when you join/exit a league or the team order gets shuffled and the leader changes. Your pets instantly explode when they are forced to change level like that and you are forced to resummon and re-buff them.

[Rudra]

10 minutes ago, Lockely said:

On 3/30/2024 at 3:32 PM, Rudra said:

If your pets are dying because you leveled up and not from enemy inflicted damage, you need to report it as a bug. The only time your character changing levels causes them to go away is when you level down. If you level up, they just remain at their current level until you re-summon them or zone.

They're talking about when you join/exit a league or the team order gets shuffled and the leader changes. Your pets instantly explode when they are forced to change level like that and you are forced to resummon and re-buff them.

I understand that, however, I have never seen my pets get unsummoned, dismissed, explode, disappear, or otherwise go away in any capacity when I join or leave a team or league unless doing so levels me down below the level at which I summoned the pets. Pets only go away (outside of combat or being dismissed) if the MM's level drops below the correct level for the pets to exist. If the MM joins a group or gets shuffled to a different team while on a league and finds their level going up? The pets do not go away. They remain at their summoned level. (Which necessitates re-summoning them, yes, after you dismiss them yourself, in order to bring their combat level up to the MM's higher combat level.)

 

Edited April 1 by Rudra
Edited to change "but only to" to "after you dismiss them yourself, in order to".

[Lockely]

13 minutes ago, Rudra said:

I understand that, however, I have never seen my pets get unsummoned, dismissed, explode, disappear, or otherwise go away in any capacity when I join or leave a team or league unless doing so levels me down below the level at which I summoned the pets. Pets only go away (outside of combat or being dismissed) if the MM's level drops below the correct level for the pets to exist. If the MM joins a group or gets shuffled to a different team while on a league and finds their level going up? The pets do not go away. They remain at their summoned level. (Which necessitates re-summoning them, yes, after you dismiss them yourself, in order to bring their combat level up to the MM's higher combat level.)

 

I have literally watched my entire team of bots implode just from leaving a GM league or even an iTF league. I don't know what to tell you, but it happens constantly.

[Rudra]

8 minutes ago, Lockely said:

I have literally watched my entire team of bots implode just from leaving a GM league or even an iTF league. I don't know what to tell you, but it happens constantly.

What level were you as part of the league, what levels were your pets as part of the league, and what were your respective levels when you left said league? Because on Hamidon leagues, monster leagues, and ToT leagues, that has never happened to my MMs unless my MM's level dropped below the pets' summoned level. Same with my friends who play MMs.

[gameboy1234]

1 hour ago, Lockely said:

I have literally watched my entire team of bots implode just from leaving a GM league or even an iTF league. I don't know what to tell you, but it happens constantly.

 

He's trying to differentiate between leveling up, and leveling down.  Because that allows him to pretend that your argument is invalid and therefore doesn't need to be considered.

[CaptainLupis]

On 3/30/2024 at 9:32 PM, Rudra said:

If your pets are dying because you leveled up and not from enemy inflicted damage, you need to report it as a bug. The only time your character changing levels causes them to go away is when you level down. If you level up, they just remain at their current level until you re-summon them or zone.

It has been reported for quite some time.

 

 

[Rudra]

1 hour ago, CaptainLupis said:

It has been reported for quite some time.

 

 

I don't know what to tell you other than what I already said about reporting it as a bug. I have never seen MM pets go away because the MM leveled up by any means. Not from gaining experience and not from joining a higher level team. MM pets are not supposed to go away just because the MM is now a higher level, because doing so leaves the MM vulnerable during normal game play. The only time I see MM pets just go away is when the MM finds himself/herself/themselves/itself now suddenly lower level than when the pets were summoned. And if you zone after leveling up while still having the now lower level pets, they automatically upgrade to your new level. (Edit: And they do so because the game spawns brand new pets every time you zone with active pets. Which is why pets go away if you are leveled down for any reason. Because the game can't just spawn new pets in the zone, the pets are now higher level than the MM and probably the mission, so the pets are removed pending being summoned again by the MM.)

 

Edit again: Even the linked thread said it was not consistently happening, only being triggered at a specific level difference.

Edited April 1 by Rudra

[Videra]

On 3/29/2024 at 4:25 PM, PeregrineFalcon said:

You want your pets to survive? Take Force Fields or Sonic as your secondary. My Mercs/FF MM almost never has to resummon pets.

 

If you choose one of the more common secondaries: Poison, Time, Traps, etc., then just realize that your pets are going to die more often. That's the tradeoff for having a more offensive secondary.

 

Bottom line: the problem isn't with the pets or the AT, it's with your power choices.

 

To be quite frank, it actually is an AT design problem when you break it down to break tacks. The downwards level shifts that MM pets suffer from are a big part of why they get vaporized in +2 and up content and incarnate content. How enemies con to the pets influences the damage taken and dealt by pets,

Them being even level with the caster would be a MASSIVE survivability boost.

[CaptainLupis]

29 minutes ago, Rudra said:

I don't know what to tell you other than what I already said about reporting it as a bug. I have never seen MM pets go away because the MM leveled up by any means. Not from gaining experience and not from joining a higher level team. MM pets are not supposed to go away just because the MM is now a higher level, because doing so leaves the MM vulnerable during normal game play. The only time I see MM pets just go away is when the MM finds himself/herself/themselves/itself now suddenly lower level than when the pets were summoned. And if you zone after leveling up while still having the now lower level pets, they automatically upgrade to your new level. (Edit: And they do so because the game spawns brand new pets every time you zone with active pets. Which is why pets go away if you are leveled down for any reason. Because the game can't just spawn new pets in the zone, the pets are now higher level than the MM and probably the mission, so the pets are removed pending being summoned again by the MM.)

 

Edit again: Even the linked thread said it was not consistently happening, only being triggered at a specific level difference.

That was a bug report I linked, so they already know about it but is probably seen as fairly low priority. Personally I have had it happen to me numerous times as well. It can be particularly annoying when you are regularly teaming with 1 other person as that level dynamic doesn't change much so it can happen fairly often, but it hasn't led to many deaths so it's more of an annoyance for me than a game breaker, but it definitely happens.

[Rudra]

11 minutes ago, Videra said:

 

To be quite frank, it actually is an AT design problem when you break it down to break tacks. The downwards level shifts that MM pets suffer from are a big part of why they get vaporized in +2 and up content and incarnate content. How enemies con to the pets influences the damage taken and dealt by pets,

Them being even level with the caster would be a MASSIVE survivability boost.

In incarnate content, the MM pets are the same level as the MM. If you are a 50+1 MM, then your T1s are level 48+3, T2s are 49+2, and your T1 is 50+1. If you are a level 50+3 MM, then your T1s are 48+5, T2s are 49+4, and T3 is 50+3. (Edit: And if you aren't incarnate yet? Then in incarnate content, including incarnate zones, your T1s are their level +2, T2s are their level +1, and T3 is your level.)

Edited April 1 by Rudra

[Lyone_Manes]

Honestly...I feel like only 2 things need to really be done to make MMs better:

1) Make all the "Buff" Powers enhanceable with Sets. Right now most of them can't be used for -ANYTHING-...and Procs/Constant Enhancement Buffs are what is important right now. You can limit them to the MM Sets(which is an AWESOME idea...allow the Minion-Powers to be freed up for better abilities.)

 

2) Have more options for Pets to Proc and be affected directly by. Whether it's Resistance, Defense, Hit Points, really doesn't matter...more Pet-Focused Procs would help a LOT.

 

That is my opinion. 😛

[Black Zot]

12 hours ago, Rudra said:

In incarnate content, the MM pets are the same level as the MM. If you are a 50+1 MM, then your T1s are level 48+3, T2s are 49+2, and your T1 is 50+1. If you are a level 50+3 MM, then your T1s are 48+5, T2s are 49+4, and T3 is 50+3. (Edit: And if you aren't incarnate yet? Then in incarnate content, including incarnate zones, your T1s are their level +2, T2s are their level +1, and T3 is your level.)

 

Which does nothing at all to help MMs in the other 95% of the game.

[Videra]

12 hours ago, Rudra said:

In incarnate content, the MM pets are the same level as the MM. If you are a 50+1 MM, then your T1s are level 48+3, T2s are 49+2, and your T1 is 50+1. If you are a level 50+3 MM, then your T1s are 48+5, T2s are 49+4, and T3 is 50+3. (Edit: And if you aren't incarnate yet? Then in incarnate content, including incarnate zones, your T1s are their level +2, T2s are their level +1, and T3 is your level.)

 

Oh, well, egg on my face. I forgot about that.

Still does nothing for MMs in the other majority of the game.