Defense/resistance/mez

[LKN-351]

I've never really put much effort into building characters with IOs/set bonus'/procs but I have interest in doing so. I thought about just posting each individual build but I've got 8 different brutes with different powersets I'm messing with at the moment and I'm kind of just trying to find a rule of thumb.

as I'm messing with this I just keep asking myself the same question over and over... How much is plenty? I'm not looking to cap things out, just enough so it makes a difference. I'd like some direction lol

 

Specifically, How much Def do I actually need? Should I focus on s/l/e/n/c/f/t/p? Or positional? Should I not worry about certain defenses?

 

Resistance, should I focus on certain aspects there? which should I ignore?

 

I keep getting confused and taunted. How much confuse resistance do I need? Is assault the only thing to do about being taunted in PVE?

What about the other mez resistances? KB is covered on /fire and /dark but where should my other mez resist numbers be?

 

I've got a claws/regen, psi/dark, em/wp, kat/inv, wm/inv, fire/fire, db/elec, and a bs/bio.

[Erratic1]

If you are playing a Defensive set you are aiming for 45% at a minimum, regardless of the set being positional or elemental focused. If you can reasonably push into the 50s, you should do so (because defense debuff is a thing), though some of that comes down to the particulars of the set and how much Defense Debuff Resistance the set comes with. You will also want to raise your resistances as well, but that is less efficient for you than getting your defenses up to snuff. Positional has fewer categories to work towards improving, but Elemental is not horrible to work with. I would not generally choose to skip one Defense armor set over another because one is elemental vs positional.

 

Resistance will want S/L/E/N/C/F covered at a minimum, T/P as you can (typically hard to max out). Historically S/L have been the absolute must haves at 90%, but frankly you're going to want to get all of them up into the 80+ range if you can. While you can only have 90% effective to damage, your resistance resists being debuff based on its value, so having 100% means not having to worry about being resistance debuffs. However that is not generally something to build towards on a Brute, just if you happen to go past 90% on your build there is benefit to be had there.

 

I cannot say I recall being taunted in PvE all that much (if at all). Mez resistance is typically tied to one of your armor set powers and is pretty binary (with certain powersets being an exception--say Fiery Aura).

[ZorkNemesis]

20 hours ago, Erratic1 said:

I cannot say I recall being taunted in PvE all that much (if at all).

 

Taunts are fairly rare but there's a couple groups that do use them regularly.  Off the top of my head, Black Knights in Night Ward tend to spam them.  PPD Awakened that turn into White Dwarves will taunt.  Crey Juggernauts taunt, through their untouchable force fields no less.  Black Scorpion can taunt you but you don't fight him all that often normally.

 

ETA: Ghoul Painted Ones and Failed Experiment Type 52s have an ability that lets them give their target a taunt aura.  If they are confused or on your side anyway you'll be taunted to their target should they land it.

 

Generally there's nothing to be done about it.  Assault from the Leadership pool makes taunts last for shorter times but that's pretty much it and generally not worth it since a taunt will end if the taunter is downed anyway (of course more team damage doesn't hurt, just don't take it specifically for the Taunt/Placatte resistance).

 

Confusion however is a problem as a lot of status toggles don't protect from it or Fear, many armors predate these effects (players weren't succeptible to these until Issue 4 with PvP and issue 5 was when we got the first mob that could use Fear on players, Jack in Irons).  Some of the newer sets protect from these but older sets often have to rely on Tactics or Break Frees to protect them.

 

Edited April 21 by ZorkNemesis

[Snarky]

My two inf.  You says you have like 8 projects.  I assume different armor types.  I do not run many Def sets, but on those you obviously want to get to softcap, and then if doing a lot of incarnate work, softcap that as well.

 

In armor Def>Res>Heal.  A "blended" set like Invul gives you respectable Def number, that you might pump to nice levels, as well as respectable Res numbers.  And Dull Pain.  A Heal/+HP Buff that is so good. Invul also has good defense debuff resistance.

 

Straight Resistance armors.  Tough to sell these babies.  If you slap on Defense, (and they have no defense debuff resistance) all that investment can be gone in seconds. 

 

IMPORTANT FACT about Resistance in CoH/V.  You will never find a Resistance Debuff Resistance listed, like you do Defense Debuff Resistance.  You know why?  Resistance is it's own Resistance Debuff Resistance.  So, people talk about hard cap RES for Tanks / Brutes as 90%.  True enough.  But if you get it to 100% it CANNOT be stripped.  (Okay, it can.  there are a tiny, miniscule, count them on one hand number of enemies in CoH with irresistable resistance debuff)  But the gold standard is 100%

 

Strange armors.  My beloved Dark.  Dark is a resist set that takes the standard Def>Res>Heal, stands it on it's head, then field kicks that bitch down the highway.  How?  Oh, glad you ask.  You will see many people with Dark builds or conversations on Dark Armor where they leave off or discuss the great way to leave off using all the toggles. Because toggles take end man.  Real assholes.  Mainly because then they play it and it sucks.  Sure, the end curve is better.  But the armor sucks.  here is an idea.  FIX the Endurance problems, then use some of the best defensive powers in the game, that are right in the powerset.  A PBAoE fear (stackable with a melee attack Fear) and a PBAoE Stun will severely limit incoming attacks.  Not being attacked is (say it with me) DEFENSE.  A non suppressing stealth also limits incoming attacks.  DEFENSE (and why I like this set for a Brute better than a Tank) Then you have great Resists (and you can pump Energy Res to 60+% on a dark brute, the rest into gold 100% neighborhood)  Then you have the BEST combat heal in the game.  Up every 10?  seconds or so.  Dark armor is very odd.  But once you understand how to be effective with it you have one of the most powerful armors in the game.

 

And that is most of what I know about Brute Armor.

 

Have fun.

[Erratic1]

1 hour ago, Snarky said:

In armor Def>Res>Heal.  A "blended" set like Invul gives you respectable Def number, that you might pump to nice levels, as well as respectable Res numbers.  And Dull Pain.  A Heal/+HP Buff that is so good. Invul also has good defense debuff resistance.

 

Straight Resistance armors.  Tough to sell these babies.  If you slap on Defense, (and they have no defense debuff resistance) all that investment can be gone in seconds. 

 

 I have moved from the camp that sees Def>Res>Heal to thinking a character isn't really suitably protected until they have covered two of the three in their build, regardless of what the armor set provides. Yeah, adding Defense to a resistance set does mean your Defense can be stripped, but you still will have all Resistance and it should be at high values. While Defense sets from with DDR, that merely constrains how much Def they lose. 

[Snarky]

2 minutes ago, Erratic1 said:

 

 I have moved from the camp that sees Def>Res>Heal to thinking a character isn't really suitably protected until they have covered two of the three in their build, regardless of what the armor set provides. Yeah, adding Defense to a resistance set does mean your Defense can be stripped, but you still will have all Resistance and it should be at high values. While Defense sets from with DDR, that merely constrains how much Def they lose. 

I like your basic premise of having more than one leg on the stool. Defense is great.  Carry a couple purple inspirations.  In my opinion wasting build power chasing defense on a resistance set is an unmitigated waste

[Erratic1]

1 hour ago, Snarky said:

I like your basic premise of having more than one leg on the stool. Defense is great.  Carry a couple purple inspirations.  In my opinion wasting build power chasing defense on a resistance set is an unmitigated waste

 

Given DDR I probably would not chase, it, just take what comes naturally. Been a while since I last did a straight up Resistance build (as opposed to Hybrid or Defense).

 

I got into Brutes after playing my first, a  DM/Elec and it was pretty survivable, but go figure with two heals and two endurance recovery methods. Maybe +Rchg/Healing is the way to go with Resist sets?

[Zect]

23 hours ago, LKN-351 said:

Specifically, How much Def do I actually need?

 

You want enough mitigation to survive the threat environment you fight in, plus a bit more for margin of error - any extra is a waste.

 

If you are unsure, then for a general-purpose build, my recommendation is at least 1 primary mit layer capped (either 45% def to all or 90% res to all on a brute) and your armor set's survivability tools adequately slotted: they all provide something extra, like heals or maxHP or debuffs (even SR has scaling resists) so following this advice never leaves you completely dependent on a single mechanism.

 

Adjust up and down from there as you see fit, based on your play experience, skill level, the sophistication of the threat environment, and of course your powerset. I don't cap res or def on my bio armors for example because the set natively has so much healing and absorb.

 

Quote

Should I focus on s/l/e/n/c/f/t/p? Or positional?

 

In general, work with what your armor set provides you: if it has def, add def. If you have res, add res. If it gives positional def, like SR, add positional def; if typed def, like EA, then typed.

 

The reason is that both def and res in coh, contrary to common sense, good balance and sensible game design, show accelerating instead of diminishing returns. If you are at 50% res, and add +10% res, it now takes a fifth more damage to kill you. If you are at 80% res, and add +10% res, it now takes twice as much damage to kill you. So it's more effective to chase the cap of whatever you are closer to - but if you're there and still determine you want additional survivability you want to branch out.

 

Quote

Should I not worry about certain defenses?

 

Resistance, should I focus on certain aspects there? which should I ignore?

 

If you're positional defense, you can ignore psi defense, because most psi attacks have a positional vector.

 

If you're typed defense, you still want to ignore psi defense because there is very little slot-efficient psi def in the game. Most of it comes not from IO sets but from +def to all powers like weave.

 

If you're resistance, you can ignore cold, toxic, and psi to various degrees. The first two are rare, and tend not to appear in threatening amounts when they do (but the one set with a toxic res hole, elec, has literally 0% tox res outside of the ult, so you need to be a bit more knowledgable in identifying toxic threats). Psi is reasonably common at endgame, but most psi enemies have lackluster dps because there aren't many strong psi attacks in game. Psi tends to hurt when most of the mobs in a spawn deal psi damage, as you sometimes see with certain wisp-heavy (or even all-wisp) Rularuu spawns, the psychic clockwork mission, and the mission that's all IDF Seers; or with certain specific mobs like tarantula queens (TK blast and psi wail) or penny yin (who actually gets full-fledged psi melee). Decide how much res you need depending on how capable you are in identifying, adapting to, and neutralizing these threats,

Edited April 20 by Zect

[Snarky]

3 hours ago, Erratic1 said:

 

Given DDR I probably would not chase, it, just take what comes naturally. Been a while since I last did a straight up Resistance build (as opposed to Hybrid or Defense).

 

I got into Brutes after playing my first, a  DM/Elec and it was pretty survivable, but go figure with two heals and two endurance recovery methods. Maybe +Rchg/Healing is the way to go with Resist sets?

It can be.  Depends on the powers.  Both things are great in general on Brutes.  My Dark Dark runs a solid amount if recharge.  Because long cooldown great powers and, lets face it, not a lot to choose from in attack chain. After running blasters and corrupters you seriously are like “faster brute faster” lol

[LKN-351]

I've got 7 brutes and a scrapper I'm going to build, but currently i'm working on a claws/regen scrap and a kat/inv brute. I forget that that one is a scrapper lol

I figure if I know where I'm going on these two then I'll know where to go on the rest when I get to them.

 

Confuse and taunt were on my mind cause i had done a manti TF shortly before I posted this. I'm glad tactics was specifically mention cause I thought about adding it to power choices and now I'm glad i didn't. Confuse though, the regen and inv toons tend to be susceptible to it. Inv I got up to 50% and /regen i got to 51.25%.  Honestly I don't know how much to shoot for but i'd guess 100%

 

I understand the gist of "add to what you've got" but for example with /regen it seems like it needs some def and resist cause I tried just adding recharge and regen and that wasn't enough. He was much more fun to play once I added IOs with more status and more def/res. Hes sitting at 11ish def but resist is all over the board with a min of 21.05 and a max of 39.55.

What I'm getting at with the regen (and the other toons I'm going to build) is I like the idea of having a bit of def/resist/regen/end/rechrg added in, but I'm not sure how much I'd add to make it worth the time/effort/influence.

 

 

Edited April 20 by LKN-351

[Snarky]

2 minutes ago, LKN-351 said:

I've got 7 brutes and a scrapper I'm going to build, but currently i'm working on a claws/regen scrap and a kat/inv brute. I forget that that one is a scrapper lol

I figure if I know where I'm going on these two then I'll know where to go on the rest when I get to them.

 

Confuse and taunt were on my mind cause i had done a manti TF shortly before I posted this. I'm glad tactics was specifically mention cause I thought about adding it to power choices and now I'm glad i didn't. Confuse though, the regen and inv toons tend to be susceptible to it. Inv I got up to 50% and /regen i got to 51.25%.  Honestly I don't know how much to shoot for but i'd guess 100%

 

I understand the gist of "add to what you've got" but for example with /regen it seems like it needs some def and resist cause I tried just adding recharge and regen and that wasn't enough. He was much more fun to play once I added IOs with more status and more def/res. Hes sitting at 11ish def but resist is all over the board with a min of 21.05 and a max of 39.55.

What I'm getting at with the regen (and the other toons I'm going to build) is I like the idea of having a bit of def/resist/regen/end/rechrg added in, but I'm not sure how much I'd add to make it worth the time/effort/influence.

 

 

Look to Hyperstrike for an Invulnerability Template.  Anything else is just less.

 

 

[Hyperstrike]

36 minutes ago, Snarky said:

Look to Hyperstrike for an Invulnerability Template.  Anything else is just less.

 

 

HEY!  I want a quarter every time you use that!!!

🤪

[LKN-351]

Hyperstrikes builds gave me some ideas to use but I'm still stuck with the same question... How much is enough? (without softcapping)

 

Granted that question is really better answered by playing the build, but I'm trying to figure out a number goal (in mids) to work towards.

For example with confuse, thats simple to test. I'll try my 50% in a manti and see what happens and then add to it if i need to.

 

I think it needs to be a more specific question per powerset and I was really hoping I could find a more generalized answer that would work across the board that may not exist when it comes to def and resist on each set.

Edited April 20 by LKN-351

[Yomo Kimyata]

I try to diversify.  I don't like pure defense sets, because sometimes defense fails you.

 

Ideally (and this is for a scrapper), I will try to get around 40%+ defense to melee, 50%+ resistance to what I expect to fight against, at least one (and preferably 2) heals, and at least one "oh shit" button.  For bio and radiation armor (which are admittedly my faves), this is pretty easily done.

 

Since my defense is generally active, I can get away with not blindly softcapping defense.  

 

also, I like to put a LOT of knockdown and other crowd control, which helps with not needing to cap things.

[LKN-351]

Honestly I don't like pure defense sets either, I ran an SR scrap for a while and I just didn't like it at all. My fav used to WP but something happened to it between when I rolled my first one in 08 and now. I like Bio, Dark, and inv out of the box a lot so far but I've yet to have any experience with any of the other sets. Regens fun now that I've put some IOs into it.

 

I think I may post the two builds I've actually done so far in seperate posts. If anyone has anything else to add for general numbers to shoot for I'll definitely take them.

[Hyperstrike]

On 4/20/2024 at 3:56 PM, LKN-351 said:

Hyperstrikes builds gave me some ideas to use but I'm still stuck with the same question... How much is enough? (without softcapping)

 

Granted that question is really better answered by playing the build, but I'm trying to figure out a number goal (in mids) to work towards.

For example with confuse, thats simple to test. I'll try my 50% in a manti and see what happens and then add to it if i need to.

 

I think it needs to be a more specific question per powerset and I was really hoping I could find a more generalized answer that would work across the board that may not exist when it comes to def and resist on each set.

The best way to make your own personal decision is to take a build with Soft Cap or Incarnate Soft Cap defense and then experiment to see what works with your personal play style.

This way you can make the decision in relative "safety".

[LKN-351]

Thats seems like a good suggestion but I'm going about it the opposite way. I'm not quite capped but I'm looking at the enemy type that specifically did damage to me and trying my best to add that in. Storm kick and confusion is a pain right now, so I'm trying to add what i can so that those aren't any more, which in hindsight I should have already had more melee def lethal. Theres a reason why i see those higher on most builds I've looked at.

[Zect]

If using the @Hyperstrike builds, you should note that they have a flaw in that they use a lot of reactive armor. Reactive armor is often a bad choice for invuln because the 2-piece set bonus is wasted - invulns don’t need SL res. It is very hard to beat unbreakable guard for invuln unless you need something specific.
 

On 4/23/2024 at 12:52 AM, LKN-351 said:

Thats seems like a good suggestion but I'm going about it the opposite way. I'm not quite capped but I'm looking at the enemy type that specifically did damage to me and trying my best to add that in.

When you are not softcapped you may build in a way so that you can easily cap using temporary resources when necessary. This concept is known as “slack”. 
 

A common example is how some unarmored toons build for 32.5 ranged def. A small purple insp (+12.5 def) then puts you at the softcap. 

 

However, my personal build goal for invuln is approximately 40% with a single foe in melee.

 

This is not an obvious breakpoint, but is based off my extensive real-world testing vs +4x8 Cimerorans (my benchmark for -def mobs). This is approximately the defense needed to prevent them from easily un-softcapping you when combined with ageless radial and causing a defense cascade failure. 

[Hyperstrike]

1 hour ago, Zect said:

If using the @Hyperstrike builds, you should note that they have a flaw in that they use a lot of reactive armor. Reactive armor is often a bad choice for invuln because the 2-piece set bonus is wasted - invulns don’t need SL res. It is very hard to beat unbreakable guard for invuln unless you need something specific.

No.  Invuln is generally fairly durable the floor for Invuln is 67%.
There are just LOTS of places to pull Resit (S/L) from
Simply having more than enough is NOT hurting you in any way.

But look at most high end builds.  There is ALWAYS going to be an overlap of some sort.
As to the SL boost?
Okay?  So what?  The rest of the set boosts are deeply useful on an invuln.
This is why I don't limit it to two slots.  And if a Resist power IS only limited in such a way, something else gets chosen.

Also, achieving Soft Cap Defense is relatively easy with a couple enemies in range?
Is having some unnecessary slotting feeding in MORE not beneficial?
Of course no, it simply makes operation in steady-state Tanking more attractive.
 

 

Edited April 25 by Hyperstrike

[Zect]

4 hours ago, Hyperstrike said:

Simply having more than enough is NOT hurting you in any way.

 

You can debate what build goals to shoot for, but assignable slots are a finite resources, and thus everything comes at the cost of something else. Wasted stats damages you by detracting from building for useful stats elsewhere.

 

Ideally, everything in a build should be chosen with purpose - whether that be to satisfy a concept, to improve playfeel, to optimize build resources, etc. The better one can do this, the more one benefits in every way.

 

Now, I don't expect to convince you because your mind is closed - you've decided what is what, and facts will not sway you. I leave this for the intrepid builder who stumbles across this decision.

Edited April 25 by Zect

[Hyperstrike]

1 hour ago, Zect said:

 

You can debate what build goals to shoot for, but assignable slots are a finite resources, and thus everything comes at the cost of something else. Wasted stats damages you by detracting from building for useful stats elsewhere.

 

Ideally, everything in a build should be chosen with purpose - whether that be to satisfy a concept, to improve playfeel, to optimize build resources, etc. The better one can do this, the more one benefits in every way.

 

Now, I don't expect to convince you because your mind is closed - you've decided what is what, and facts will not sway you. I leave this for the intrepid builder who stumbles across this decision.

The point is that there's really only so much one can wring from single slots.

You can always argue that something is "more efficient".

You have to prove it, QUANTITATIVELY though.
And not just in the vacuum "This slot/these slots" aren't as efficient as something else"

[MizuUeumatsu]

Hi! I'm working on IOing an electric armor brute and I've got to say it's got nice def/res/mez res I am smashing through rikti like a hot knife through butter.

[Infinitum]

On 4/22/2024 at 12:52 PM, LKN-351 said:

Thats seems like a good suggestion but I'm going about it the opposite way. I'm not quite capped but I'm looking at the enemy type that specifically did damage to me and trying my best to add that in. Storm kick and confusion is a pain right now, so I'm trying to add what i can so that those aren't any more, which in hindsight I should have already had more melee def lethal. Theres a reason why i see those higher on most builds I've looked at.

 

That's actually the perfect approach and how most of my build templates came to be. 

 

Everyone has a playstyle - you are building to accommodate yours and that's a beautiful approach. 

 

And a buuld is never perfect - but as long as it suits your fun that's all you need. 

[Haijinx]

29 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

 

That's actually the perfect approach and how most of my build templates came to be. 

 

Everyone has a playstyle - you are building to accommodate yours and that's a beautiful approach. 

 

And a buuld is never perfect - but as long as it suits your fun that's all you need. 

Some could be ... if only they would give me like 10 more slots. ...

[Hyperstrike]

On 4/20/2024 at 8:37 PM, LKN-351 said:

Honestly I don't like pure defense sets either, I ran an SR scrap for a while and I just didn't like it at all. My fav used to WP but something happened to it between when I rolled my first one in 08 and now. I like Bio, Dark, and inv out of the box a lot so far but I've yet to have any experience with any of the other sets. Regens fun now that I've put some IOs into it.

 

I think I may post the two builds I've actually done so far in seperate posts. If anyone has anything else to add for general numbers to shoot for I'll definitely take them.

 

 

Straight ALL DEFENSE setups are generally flawed,

Remember, resist ALWAYS takes a set percentage of damage off, based on Resistance value.
Pure Defense is "all or nothing".  With the RNG generally hating the living F### out of you at times.

 

Edited April 26 by Hyperstrike