raid Once again asking for an instanced Hamidon Raid

[Duckbutler]

1 hour ago, biostem said:

I have no doubt that people doing things apart from the league can be/is a hindrance to said league.  The bigger question is whether said league has any right to or exclusive say over what goes on in that zone.  I can certainly see a case for offering an instanced version of Hamidon.  The only lingering concern I have is whether doing so could end up in some folks, who may get on the bad side of such event organizers, to essentially be blacklisted from being able to take part.  At least in the current implementation, they can get a couple hits in and get something out of it.  I'm not arguing whether such behavior is right or wrong, merely that adding an extra layer of exclusivity may not be a good thing...

I think it's better to just let them have greater control of their own group. Instances also limit their reach so that the shared resource of the server zone cannot be monopolized. Others are more free to create competing groups, just like we see with TFs and iTrials. The player base may not be so large as to support many competing groups for large raids, but I think that's more of an argument to play nice than anything else.

[Wispur]

8 hours ago, Frozen Burn said:

I really do not see the need for an instanced raid.  The zones are already locked for level appropriateness and there can only be a certain amount of people in them anyway before a second Hive/Abyss is spawned.  So, they basically already are instanced in that regard.  

 

And just because one is not on the league, it doesn't mean they are leeching or misbehaving.  Most of the time I join the league, but there are times i don't want to deal with all the gabbing and nonsense that goes on the in league channel and I want a nice quiet hami experience.  It's easy to follow the group and contribute whether dealing damage, buffing, debufffing, controlling, or all.  One can do a full raid, kill GMs, kill mitos, (or dole out the buffs/debuffs), and kill Hami without being on a league or team.  So, just because you find someone not on the league, doesn't mean they are a bad / selfish player and/or up to nefarious reasons.

 

If there is specific griefing happening during a Hami raid - like hiding buds, then those individuals should be reported.  

 

The thing is, we've been noticing a LOT of bad behavior lately, with very few options available to use to do anything about it.
Like today, we had someone who would literally jump in, hit Hami once, then jump back out.
We've had people AFKing, who have an AOE on autofire, but otherwise aren't contributing.
It's become a bit of a mess.

Remember, there are real people scheduling, organizing, and running these raids, these aren't something that happens automatically.
And they're doing it to help their fellow players have fun.  When they see a half dozen people taking advantage of that and making it harder for everyone else, while still getting the same rewards as the people actually putting in the work, that's very discouraging. 

[Wispur]

3 hours ago, biostem said:

I have no doubt that people doing things apart from the league can be/is a hindrance to said league.  The bigger question is whether said league has any right to or exclusive say over what goes on in that zone.  I can certainly see a case for offering an instanced version of Hamidon.  The only lingering concern I have is whether doing so could end up in some folks, who may get on the bad side of such event organizers, to essentially be blacklisted from being able to take part.  At least in the current implementation, they can get a couple hits in and get something out of it.  I'm not arguing whether such behavior is right or wrong, merely that adding an extra layer of exclusivity may not be a good thing...

I think what you just described is exactly why it needs to be done.
Raid leaders *should* have the ability to exclude people that cause trouble for their raids.

Just like Task force leaders can exclude troublemakers, mission runners can exclude troublemakers, etc.

And if those troublemakers *really* want to do it, they can always start their own raid, and see who still wants to join them.
If they *actually* did nothing wrong, I'm sure it'll be no problem at all.

[biostem]

15 minutes ago, Wispur said:

Raid leaders *should* have the ability to exclude people that cause trouble for their raids.

Playing devil's advocate here, but what makes it "their raid"?  Does being the leader of a league entitle you to dictate what every other person in a public zone can or cannot do?  Add the instanced version and let only those in the league enter it, but please do not pretend that any specific subset of people can control a zone just by virtue of having the star next to their name.  

[Wispur]

9 minutes ago, biostem said:

Playing devil's advocate here, but what makes it "their raid"?  Does being the leader of a league entitle you to dictate what every other person in a public zone can or cannot do?  Add the instanced version and let only those in the league enter it, but please do not pretend that any specific subset of people can control a zone just by virtue of having the star next to their name.  

That's just it, I'm saying they *should* have the ability to do that.  ie, Instanced Raids.

[Shin Magmus]

2 hours ago, Wispur said:

...And if those troublemakers *really* want to do it, they can always start their own raid, and see who still wants to join them.
If they *actually* did nothing wrong, I'm sure it'll be no problem at all.

+50,000 pts.  This is why player notes and ratings exist. 

[Rudra]

3 hours ago, Wispur said:

7 hours ago, biostem said:

I have no doubt that people doing things apart from the league can be/is a hindrance to said league.  The bigger question is whether said league has any right to or exclusive say over what goes on in that zone.  I can certainly see a case for offering an instanced version of Hamidon.  The only lingering concern I have is whether doing so could end up in some folks, who may get on the bad side of such event organizers, to essentially be blacklisted from being able to take part.  At least in the current implementation, they can get a couple hits in and get something out of it.  I'm not arguing whether such behavior is right or wrong, merely that adding an extra layer of exclusivity may not be a good thing...

I think what you just described is exactly why it needs to be done.

I have to disagree. There are already people forming up Hami raids. Players that show up in zone and participate despite not being in the league aren't hurting anyone, neither are they taking away from anyone. They are there attacking the monster wall and then the mitos and then Hami' itself. That is not a reason to exclude players that don't join the league. Hells, on the Hami raids I've been on, players that aren't on the league but are in the zone are told to follow along and get credit. And I know at least one person that got blacklisted from the Hami raids I went to despite not doing anything I could tell that was wrong. She was even on the league and participating, and still got black listed. So at least being able to pop in the zone and follow along to get credit despite not being on the league isn't a bad thing in my book.

 

3 hours ago, Wispur said:

Raid leaders *should* have the ability to exclude people that cause trouble for their raids.

They do. They kick the troublemakers from the team/league and depending on what was done, report them so the GMs can deal with the troublemaker.

 

3 hours ago, Wispur said:

And if those troublemakers *really* want to do it, they can always start their own raid, and see who still wants to join them.
If they *actually* did nothing wrong, I'm sure it'll be no problem at all.

Now this sentiment? I have loads of problems with. If you want to have troublemakers dealt with? Report them. Let the GMs handle it. That's why they are there. Telling someone they can't play in your reindeer games, I mean Hami raid, and go form their own league is very elitist. If they *actually* did nothing wrong, then you have no reason to exclude them.

 

I didn't care if an instance Hami raid was added until I got to this part of the discussion. Now? I'm against the instanced Hami raid request. If a player is causing problems, record it, report it, and let the GMs handle it. If the sole purpose of asking for instanced Hami raids is to ensure everyone is on the league? Forget it. Make the buds all marked on the map so they can be hunted down if someone is actually trying to make them spawn out of the way to troll the raid. If players are just camping out in the zone? Ask them to leave. Record them for doing so and see if the GMs agree that is bad behavior. Asking for an instanced raid because the scheduled raid leader can't get in? Form up in the next Hive/Abyss and broadcast it on the appropriate channels. "Hey, it's time for the Hami raid, but I can't get in to the zone, so come to zone 2 for the raid." You're the raid leader, right? So the raid will form up where you are.

[Shin Magmus]

It's almost comical how much of a contrarian you are Rudra: you just popped in to say the literal opposite of what everyone else is saying.  How bout we agree to disagree and request to have more options available to the player. 

 

Just imagine it: 2 concurrent raids: one in an instance led by the people here requesting it, and one led by Rudra where all the "blacklisted" players are allowed in and nobody can be "elitist."  Great, Everyone wins. 

[Rudra]

6 minutes ago, Shin Magmus said:

It's almost comical how much of a contrarian you are Rudra: you just popped in to say the literal opposite of what everyone else is saying.  How bout we agree to disagree and request to have more options available to the player. 

 

Just imagine it: 2 concurrent raids: one in an instance led by the people here requesting it, and one led by Rudra where all the "blacklisted" players are allowed in and nobody can be "elitist."  Great, Everyone wins. 

I don't normally do Hami raids, so that's out.

[Laucianna]

I just want to say that it isn't a case of "Inviting only my friends" to the event, it is a case of inviting those who want to help the raid succeed by paying attention and doing what needs to be done (As different league leads/zones have different ways to do it) For instance @Rudra you mentioned about going in and hitting the mitos which isn't how I run my Hami raids so you would be hindering the raid by taking up a spot of someone following instructions in the league.

 

League/team leads don't get to control the zone they are in, BUT they should be able to control the event they are running for everyone, as it's their job to make sure it is run successfully. Hence the instanced version, same as every other huge league event that I can think of in game (Except the random invasions), allows the league leader to run the event better for all who want to attend 🙂

 

The suggestion will benefit everyone except for people who: Want to join the event but solo, or people who are banned (Which the league leader is allowed to do as per GMs wording). Just trying to throw in a suggestion to help keep the game thriving ❤️

[Bionic_Flea]

3 hours ago, Rudra said:

Now? I'm against the instanced Hami raid request. If a player is causing problems, record it, report it, and let the GMs handle it.

 

3 hours ago, Rudra said:

I don't normally do Hami raids, so that's out.

 

You're against a proposal that will not effect you at all and want to toss more work at volunteer GMs?

 

Of course, you should report players that are misbehaving but there's also nothing wrong with players not associating with other players that are misbehaving.  That's what the rating system, the kick button, and the /ignore feature are for.

[JasperStone]

On 5/4/2024 at 7:40 PM, Laucianna said:

An instanced Hamidon raid in either Abyss or Hive but make it so both Heroes and Villains can join, at the moment I have found a lot of people are afking in the zone an HOUR before the raid is meant to happen so the people actually running have to either get there early before it fills or deal with the hassle of forming again in the second zone and dealing with dozens of tells saying "Here in Abyss and no one else here!"

 

On 5/4/2024 at 7:40 PM, Laucianna said:

Especially with the boom in players since the official announcement there is a huge demand for Hami raids (To the point we run them side by side a few days a week)

Back on topic.

These are the essential points as I see them.

 

But mainly having to get there in time.

I used to get there 10-15 minutes prior. then 30....then 45.

It is well run by both and worth the time.

 

League banter is something I enjoy, not an issue for me

Also ...instructions also come through the Request Channel.

 

 

 

[Shin Magmus]

2 hours ago, Bionic_Flea said:

Of course, you should report players that are misbehaving but there's also nothing wrong with players not associating with other players that are misbehaving.  That's what the rating system, the kick button, and the /ignore feature are for.

The code of conduct actually says to solve problems at the lowest level with those exact systems: just don't team with that person / kick a player who is griefing the team / use the ignore feature in-game, on forums, and on Discord if someone is harassing you etc.  If people instead routed every interpersonal issue up to GMs (volunteers, as you noted) that would just waste their time. 

[Oklahoman]

1 hour ago, JasperStone said:

I used to get there 10-15 minutes prior. then 30....then 45.

 

Just wanted to mention this is true for the league leader, too. We literally had an incident recently where the league leader couldn't make it into Abyss 1 before it filled - 45 minutes in advance. Our options then were to have the regular raid out of Abyss 2 (which would cause confusion, especially if I then ultimately ran an overflow raid in Abyss 1) or have one of the other regular Team 1 members already in the zone run it, which is what we decided to do.

 

We initially tried to discourage people showing up so early by refusing to start the raid early, even if the zone was full well in advance. Then we've done some overflow raids to try to meet the demand. This last Sunday, I wouldn't have been shocked if we could have formed a full raid in Abyss 3 (assuming one spawns, I haven't actually been able to confirm it does) because we filled both Abyss 1 and 2 and completed at least 4 raids by 20 minutes after the scheduled start time. This is a very popular event right now - may not always be as popular, as we saw with the days of multiple full leagues in RWZ. One option out there is for us to simply stop doing them altogether and free up everyone's time. But again, I come back to why there would ever have been a need for an instanced MSR that does not exist currently for Hami raids.

 

If I have to be in Abyss 1 50 minutes in advance of the advertised start time, that's a couple iTrials I could have been running instead of cooling my heels. With an instanced option I can still run those iTrials, then show up in Echo Park at 6pm Eastern to form my Hami raid - which could be the second or third league being formed at that time. How is that not better for everyone?

[JasperStone]

20 minutes ago, Oklahoman said:

Just wanted to mention this is true for the league leader, too.

Thank you for bringing this up, because I often do some of your iTrials pre-Hami 😛

Also, too much focus was on other things.

 

If I miss out in the Abyss, I will often do the one later in the Hive.

It is not a Zerg, and they do a round of mito clearing, then onto Hami.

In a half hour? Maybe two rounds, sometimes only one round.

 

 

[Seed22]

6 hours ago, Rudra said:

I don't normally do Hami raids, so that's out.

Why are you against this suggestion then if it literally doesn’t affect you? This is as asinine as the beanbag folks were

[macskull]

1 hour ago, Oklahoman said:

If I have to be in Abyss 1 50 minutes in advance of the advertised start time, that's a couple iTrials I could have been running instead of cooling my heels. With an instanced option I can still run those iTrials, then show up in Echo Park at 6pm Eastern to form my Hami raid - which could be the second or third league being formed at that time. How is that not better for everyone?

This is the biggest reason I don’t come to Hami raids much anymore. My time is limited and having to get to the zone 30-60 minutes early to have a chance at even getting in is a non-starter. Sometimes I’ll show up closer to the start time and get in but usually the zone is long full and I’m off into the depths of AE farming again.

 

+1 for instanced MSR. Griefers are still gonna grief but at least if they’re being obvious about it the leader will have an easy way to make sure they don’t end up on one of their raids again.

[Glacier Peak]

Indomitable enjoys starting Hamidon raids in the Abyss on time and without issue - no need to show up early. Folks should come join us sometime!

[Laucianna]

1 minute ago, Glacier Peak said:

Indomitable enjoys starting Hamidon raids in the Abyss on time and without issue - no need to show up early. Folks should come join us sometime!

That's wonderful but doesn't mean anything for the other servers with players already on it 🙂

[Glacier Peak]

Just now, Laucianna said:

That's wonderful but doesn't mean anything for the other servers with players already on it 🙂

It means players can have a lag free, no-need-to-queue, always room for more experience if they desire 🙂 

[Zaldra5]

I am for an Instanced Hamidon, just for the same reason I am fine with an Instanced MSR for player choice. The fact people are waiting an hour or more in the zone is a symptom of the issue that there is a demand but a lack of means to fill it.

 

These raids are a lot of work I rather see more options for those who are willing to run them, does that mean all of the raids will be instanced, no. Still see a ton of MSRs run every day non-instanced i doubt it will change for Hamidon

 

This is all of course if the dev have the time and resources to do this ofcourse.

[Mayaedits]

I'm genuinely baffled by the push back to this idea.

I feel like people misunderstand what leading content like this is. Anyone can shout for "Hey I'm doing X come join!". Anyone can form something. But they doesn't mean that person can do it and do it successfully. Zone raids like Hami do require leadership, not just "Hey go kill things" like in TF. Asking for a little more control so you can exude back actors from something this more easy to be messed up by them than a TF. A star on a lead means nothing if their is not knowledge and leadership behind it in. That has been the case both in this game and since the dawn of MMOs.

 

Reality is this a game we play with other people, not mindless robots. You get all different kinds of people and that's what makes it fun but it's also why tools even as basic as the kick button exist. There are bad actors just like there is IRL, and they can drastically hurt everyone's fun and waste peoples time. A good lead will remove those people so that people who actually want to play and follow along with what they are doing can do so without interference. If those bad actors hate it, they can go try and do their own thing. Sometimes the person isn't even a full on bad actor and is just someone who wants to do things a different way and rather than leading their own things, wants to try to take over things from a lead who is asking them to do something different. Which is unhelpful and not respectful of that lead who has put the time and effort in to run that content in that moment.

With all that in mind, I fail to understand the push back here. Fear of exclusion from a oppressive lead? Go lead how you would then. Fear of leads only picking their favs? 48 people can fit in league, doubt they can only pick their favs.

The only thing I understand is the dev question, but that's not really argument. Either it's something they can or something they can't. If they can, great. Makes our lives easier. If not, it is what it is. But I would rather advocate for tools that makes it easier for leads to run content and get told it's not feasible then not.

I will strongly suggest listening to people who actually lead the content in this forum post, namely @Laucianna, @Oklahoman, and @Wispur

[Mayaedits]

44 minutes ago, Glacier Peak said:

It means players can have a lag free, no-need-to-queue, always room for more experience if they desire 🙂 

I mean this as nicely as I can say this: This is not helpful. Transfer tokens are limited and people like to play on the server they do.

 

[Glacier Peak]

4 minutes ago, Mayaedits said:

I mean this as nicely as I can say this: This is not helpful. Transfer tokens are limited and people like to play on the server they do.

Thank you for your good will. I also say this as nicely as possible - sharing my experience on Indomitable helps players who are experiencing the problem described in the original post. And it helps inform players of the benefits of playing on Indomitable. It is helpful and I am happy to share.

[macskull]

Also, different leaders do raids differently and I ain’t trying to do a Hami raid the slow way on a different server.

 

P.S.: @Mayaedits get back to work