High level enemy group revamps

[tidge]

The post below was not directed at me, and I promise I'll try to steer my reply towards "high level (?) enemy revamps" (from thread title, I was assuming level 45+ content, but I don't know if that is really what the thread is entirely discussing)

 

9 hours ago, Ukase said:

1. Would you say that you spend more time than other players on figuring out the strengths and weaknesses of your characters than the average player? 
2. Would you say that you're probably inclined to dig deeper into complex problems than the average player?

 

I don't know what the benchmark is for the average player, but for this (points to self) player:

 

1. For so much of the content, the "solutions" (i.e. how to complete the task) are both pretty well understood (by a LOT of people). Many of the "solutions" are common to most of the content, e.g. "button mashing" or "MOAR DAMAGE".

 

2. I am self-convinced of my ability (within CoX) to see that there are multiple different ways to approach content, such that I don't get agitated when I see someone doing something different. To use a classic bit of forum flame-bait: We never go long without someone starting a new thread about how some PUG has done something wrong on a Positron 1, Penny Yin, whatever trials. There are well-tested tactics, but there are different ways to approach those.

 

The page 7 revamps of enemy groups have (obviously, points to existence of multiple instances of this thread) made at least one player feel like their comfortable "solution" to playing content that includes the Council (*1, I want to circle back to this group specifically) is no longer "solving the problem" in a satisfactory way? We can still button mash against the Council and it is IMO still a completely valid approach. This hasn't really changed.

 

(*1) Calling out the Council specifically, along with no other suggestion than "roll them back" has biased me to think that a significant fraction of that feel is not driven by concerns about game balance. From my PoV, the only annoying elements of nuCouncil are (a) FREEM! breaking up my rhythm, (b) more enemies with better resists *sigh* (c) surprise at the Nictus-infused enemies doing Nictus tricks (as they always should have, IMO). As many have written... these are speed bumps, not brick walls.

 

The recent updates to Circle of Thorns ought to be more problematic (ehem, Tar Patch), I believe they are likely not seen as problematic because the old MOAR DAMAGE solution still works fine against the nuCoT. When Crey got its round of updates (MOAR Taunts, Confuses, debuffs) it was a surprise, it made them harder to face, and nobody is calling for them to be "rolled back!"

 

TL;DR. Perhaps I am dismissing concerns about nuCouncil because I believe I have "dug deeper" into the complex problem of nuCouncil and have found that whatever that problem is turns out to be incredibly shallow.

[KaizenSoze]

28 minutes ago, tidge said:

(*1) Calling out the Council specifically, along with no other suggestion than "roll them back" has biased me to think that a significant fraction of that feel is not driven by concerns about game balance. From my PoV, the only annoying elements of nuCouncil are (a) FREEM! breaking up my rhythm, (b) more enemies with better resists *sigh* (c) surprise at the Nictus-infused enemies doing Nictus tricks (as they always should have, IMO). As many have written... these are speed bumps, not brick walls.

 

The recent updates to Circle of Thorns ought to be more problematic (ehem, Tar Patch), I believe they are likely not seen as problematic because the old MOAR DAMAGE solution still works fine against the nuCoT. When Crey got its round of updates (MOAR Taunts, Confuses, debuffs) it was a surprise, it made them harder to face, and nobody is calling for them to be "rolled back!"

 

TL;DR. Perhaps I am dismissing concerns about nuCouncil because I believe I have "dug deeper" into the complex problem of nuCouncil and have found that whatever that problem is turns out to be incredibly shallow.

Alas, what I have learned is that players were not using their Incarnates aggressively before page 7. Due to it being so easy. Now, due to the increased difficultly they are and it's making new CoT and Council not trivial, but easier than you expect.

Note about soloing new Council and CoT. I have posted this in other threads. Tidge has already figured these things out.

 

If you want to avoid the Galaxy rezes, break line of sight. Brutes and Tanks now get a mag 3.5 sleep in the Epic Psionic pool, which is good for knocking off those annoying resist shields. Yes, they will turn them back on, but if you include the sleep in your rotation it will keep the shield off a lot. Plus, they have no resists to psi damage.

 

CoT bosses are nasty you need to move. I tend to trigger them at range to get them to drop tar patch and earthquake, then dart around a corner. All CoT are weak to end drain, they cannot nuke or keep those -tohit auras up without end.

[Eiko-chan]

19 hours ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

To be fair, you were soloing on x8. x8 literally means "this content is for a full team of eight players."

Well, let's circle back around to this, actually. x8 means "this content was intended for a full team of eight players by Jack Emmert, a man that famously thought a superhero should occasionally lose a fight against three minions."
That design philosophy was being abandoned even before Emmert left Cryptic, and it was fully discarded by the time Paragon Studios took the helm. The numbers really shouldn't be taken literally. They were defined by someone that thought his general rules of team play applied to all content genres. 

[Eiko-chan]

46 minutes ago, KaizenSoze said:

those -tohit auras

-tohit auras?

 

Huh. That explains a few things. Guess the Circle finally finished levelling their Willpower Tankers.

[Excraft]

8 hours ago, Eiko-chan said:

Welcome to game design. And capitalism.

 

The trick is figuring out which group is your core audience, and which sector costs you more by favouring the other. It can be a tricky balance to find, but it's not asking the impossible. Literally every organisation that exists has to thread this needle.

 

First, this game isn't a commercial venture anymore and it's never going to be a commercial venture ever again.  It's run by a group of volunteers in their spare time, so capitalism doesn't really apply to design choices here as it would for a commercial product.

 

I understand the design concept just fine.  I agree that "revamping" ALL NPC groups to make them harder everywhere and in everything was not a smart decision.  This game has never been about the required trinity WoW style of play and it never should be.  Something I think HC did right was to add difficulty levels to various TFs.  This was a great idea and executed very well.  Those who want a greater challenge have the option to run it.  Those who want don't want to run higher difficulties don't have to.  Having options is a great thing.  Making content more difficult everywhere for everyone is not in my opinion.

 

For me personally, there are times when I want to run with a well balanced team for higher level content.  More often, I'd just like to kill the hour or two of free time I have curbstomping bad guys solo.  If this trend continues to make "regular" content more difficult, I'm going to have to start wasting time trying to recruit healers or buffers.  If I have to do that for everything, including radio mission and such set at +0/1 settings, it will be time to move on from here for me. 

 

2 hours ago, Ukase said:

I read it in the chat on retail "Why should I team with you? I don't need you."

 

This has always been the case since the game launched and continues to this day.  No class/AT is required for content to be completed.  That's a good thing in my opinion.  Having a well balanced team with a blend of tank/damage/heal/control has always made content less of a hassle and more efficient in several respects.  Just one example - I often run SBBs with a group of friends.  When we have a solid tank, the squishies aren't wiped out in the first round of the arena by Claudia and Camilla because their aggro is controlled.  The AVs in Casino Heist don't run and jump all over the warehouse with a tank taunting them.   With strong debuffs, all of the AVs melt that much faster.  Same thing with running LGTFs or ITFs or LRSFs.  If you've got a well balanced team, things go that much more smoothly.  Sure, you can do an all tank ITF, but it's going to take longer and not go as well as having some buff/debuff/high DPS on the team. 

 

Personally, I don't want to see this game become yet another WoW clone.  I think that's the direction we're headed in sadly and I agree with those who have said this isn't what the core audience is looking for. 

[tidge]

The Circle has always been debuffing, even if that one simple trick may be newly added to some enemies. I'm <shocked pikachu> that this is a surprise, given the range of content across which CoT appear and the relatively easy ways to tell that a character is being debuffed.

[SeraphimKensai]

@Eiko-chan, if you don't like the Council update, you could potentially experiment with other CoH servers like Rebirth, Thunderspy, etc. that hasn't changed the Council in the same way.

 

That said each server has its own unique changes over the last several years, so it's about finding what's right for you.

 

Best of luck out there.

Edited May 10 by SeraphimKensai

[Ukase]

2 minutes ago, SeraphimKensai said:

you could potentially experiment with other CoH servers like Rebirth, Thunderspy, etc.

If you do go Thunderspy, I cannot encourage you strongly enough to try the pale blade secondary, only available to tankers. It is amazing AoE, and because the player that designed it isn't with their team any more, it remains a bit of a mystery in just how it works. But the graphics are very compelling, and the way the powers work are super interesting and effective. It's much like Rebirth in that the player base is very small, so you'll be running with the same folks for anything that's not solo. 

[tatmia]

1 hour ago, SeraphimKensai said:

@Eiko-chan, if you don't like the Council update, you could potentially experiment with other CoH servers like Rebirth, Thunderspy, etc. that hasn't changed the Council in the same way.

 

That said each server has its own unique changes over the last several years, so it's about finding what's right for you.

 

Best of luck out there.

Reading this thread had me pondering about how different servers spawning gave us options.  If you’re not happy with one dev team’s vision, another server might suit you better.   I know people who play on all three just to mix it up.

 

Thunderspy’s philosophy leans heavily into making players want to play the pre-50 levels.

 

Rebirth leans into players earning achievements/unlocks and preventing power creep.  
 

Homecoming leans into trying to bring balance to powersets and NPCs.

 

(*note, these are my personal takes on each dev team’s goals and not based on anything official).

 

I think it’s amazing that we have options and I hope that no matter what server someone plays on, if they get frustrated with the dev decisions, they look for another server that might be a better fit rather than just walking away as has been mentioned by some in this thread.  

 

 

[PeregrineFalcon]

1 hour ago, Eiko-chan said:

Well, let's circle back around to this, actually. x8 means "this content was intended for a full team of eight players by Jack Emmert, a man that famously thought a superhero should occasionally lose a fight against three minions."
That design philosophy was being abandoned even before Emmert left Cryptic, and it was fully discarded by the time Paragon Studios took the helm. The numbers really shouldn't be taken literally. They were defined by someone that thought his general rules of team play applied to all content genres. 

Regardless of what you think about Jack, and I'll probably agree with you on that, it doesn't change the fact that the current difficulty system was designed and implemented after he was no longer working on City of Heroes. And, in the current game, run by the current devs, x8 means "this content is for 8 players."

 

I'm sorry if you can't solo content designed for 8 players, but you're literally here on the forums complaining about a problem that you can solve yourself by simply turning down the difficulty.

[tidge]

A failure of comprehension on my part: I don't understand the first comment in this thread about Jack E. TBH: I don't remember there being a personal option to increase "team size" in the original game at launch, except of course by teaming up.

 

If the comment was about "times change"... I suppose I agree.

 

If the comment was to make a point about how HC is forcing (or not requiring?) players to team up... particularly in in "High Level Council Missions"... I suppose I disagree.

 

If the comment was some form of side-eye about how Homecoming's management deserves scorn by invoking a commonly used bête noir, I shrug in disbelief.

[PeregrineFalcon]

1 minute ago, tidge said:

A failure of comprehension on my part: I don't understand the first comment in this thread about Jack E. TBH: I don't remember there being a personal option to increase "team size" in the original game at launch, except of course by teaming up.

A lot of people still hold a grudge against Jack Emmert for a number of reasons, mostly because he lied to the players repeatedly. This was proven on more than one occasion. She's using the Ad Hominem logical fallacy by attacking Jack Emmert in order to assert that my claim of "just turn down the difficulty" is bad/wrong.

 

And I don't know about launch, but when I first started playing CoH, just after Issue 6 went live, there was a difficulty system in game with 5 named tiers. Normal, Hard, Unyielding, Ridiculous and Invincible. Or something like that. As it was later explained, and all of this is probably on the wiki, normal was +0/x0 and each level added another +1 to the enemies. The only way to increase the number of enemies was to have more people on your team.

 

I'm certain that the current difficulty system was put in place after Jack had already started working on the Marvel MMO which later became Champions Online, but I don't care enough to do the research to confirm that. If I'm wrong I'm sure someone will be along any minute now to ridicule me.

[Eiko-chan]

36 minutes ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

I'm sorry if you can't solo content designed for 8 players, but you're literally here on the forums complaining about a problem that you can solve yourself by simply turning down the difficulty.

The issue is that I can solo content designed for 8 players, but one particular enemy group - the fascists with punchable faces that exist in the game, referenced in the game, to have their faces punched - causes a hassle greater than the others.

 

They are not "on par" with the other enemy groups. They were redesigned to account for Incarnate power and then pushed into content for players that do not have Incarnate abilities. I would have just as much issue if the Tsoo rehash from Dark Astoria suddenly started showing up on Talos Island. 

[PeregrineFalcon]

12 minutes ago, Eiko-chan said:

The issue is that I can solo content designed for 8 players, but one particular enemy group - the fascists with punchable faces that exist in the game, referenced in the game, to have their faces punched - causes a hassle greater than the others.

During beta testing the devs ignored hundreds of posts against the upgrades to Council and CoT and they went live. That's how resistant the Homecoming devs are to our "Feedback", which they ask for and then mostly ignore.

 

I sincerely wish you luck with your attempt to get the devs to reverse the changes.

[lemming]

5 hours ago, Ukase said:

For once, let Snarky have a pleasant experience with a PUG. 

Let's not go crazy now.

[lemming]

31 minutes ago, Eiko-chan said:

The issue is that I can solo content designed for 8 players, but one particular enemy group - the fascists with punchable faces that exist in the game, referenced in the game, to have their faces punched - causes a hassle greater than the others.

 

They are not "on par" with the other enemy groups. They were redesigned to account for Incarnate power and then pushed into content for players that do not have Incarnate abilities. I would have just as much issue if the Tsoo rehash from Dark Astoria suddenly started showing up on Talos Island. 

My chars that could solo Council +4/x8 pre-update, still can solo them at that difficulty.  (Though as people have pointed out, a little more tedious)   A couple of them can't do the same for Arachnos.  That doesn't mean I need Arachnos tuned downwards by the devs, I just don't solo them at +4/x8.

 

I'm not in the camp where I think HC devs ignore feedback.  I do think they have an idea of where they want to move things, but they do listen to feedback, even if they often don't take the feedback where the reviewer would like.

[Eiko-chan]

1 hour ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

A lot of people still hold a grudge against Jack Emmert for a number of reasons,

The only grudge I hold against Jack Emmert is that I think he makes games that aren't fun. Just like my only grudge against JJ Abrams is that I think he makes movies that aren't good. 

[Rudra]

58 minutes ago, Eiko-chan said:

The issue is that I can solo content designed for 8 players, but one particular enemy group - the fascists with punchable faces that exist in the game, referenced in the game, to have their faces punched - causes a hassle greater than the others.

I'm going to get a whole lot of thumbs downs for this, but I don't see that as a problem. You can solo everything at x8, but now one group gives you pause? They don't stop you, they are just a hassle for you? At full team size spawns? That is a good thing in my book. You yourself said you still cleared them. So there isn't a problem then. It's like fighting Malta as say a Corruptor. You decided to fight them at x8 and now there are 3 Operation Engineers, 2 Tactical Operatives, and 2 Sappers in the spawn backing up the 2 boss Gunslingers and the 2 Hercules Titans, and either you can't deal with them or they are problematic to deal with? Then turn down the difficulty when going into Malta missions. I have characters that can solo +2/x8 or +3/x8 or even +4/x8 that when I get a mission with a known enemy group in it, the first thing I do is turn the difficulty to a lower setting because I know that character has problems with that faction. Turning down the difficulty when you need to is not a bad thing.

[Eiko-chan]

2 minutes ago, Rudra said:

I'm going to get a whole lot of thumbs downs for this, but I don't see that as a problem. You can solo everything at x8, but now one group gives you pause? They don't stop you, they are just a hassle for you? At full team size spawns? That is a good thing in my book. 

I "got through it" because this character has Rise of the Phoenix. And I took a couple extra hospital trips on top of that. Because the Council alpha strikes kept wiping my pets entirely, while stunlocking me that I couldn't Break Free from because I was also knocked back over the KB protection I've slotted from IOs. 

Even if we accept that it's okay for The Council* to be this annoying, the fact remains that they are not "on par" with other enemy groups. No other group has the ability to throw out this much control, damage, or knockback. 

 

(*Note: I do not accept this premise. The Council are punching bags and it's okay that they are punching bags. That's why they reward less XP/Inf than other groups.)

[Rudra]

16 minutes ago, Eiko-chan said:

No other group has the ability to throw out this much control, damage, or knockback. 

Again, other than the KB, let me point you to Malta who has Sappers that nuke END bars with a single hit while also holding you, Stuns that never seem to end even when you're only hit by 1 of them and your pets or friends wipe out the spawn immediately after. Their lieutenants stun, immobilize, and hold. All of them as far as I can tell. Their bosses stun, immobilize, and hold. Again, all of them as far as I can tell. Their Hercules Titans merge into a Zeus Titan when one of them is sufficiently damaged, making them even more dangerous than when the fight started. I've watched Tankers get eaten by them because we missed the Sapper in the mix and the Tanker was suddenly less protected than the Corruptor with no available attacks. So no, I have a very hard time accepting that now the Council is more dangerous with their control abilities than Malta. They may be for your character, so you may need to turn down the difficulty, but between Arachnos, Malta, and the Council? There is a way to deal with the improved Council. Even staying at x8. It just may no longer be that anyone and everyone can solo them at x8 any more. Which puts them on par with other high level factions at the end game.

 

Edit: Basically you are running into the original problems players encountered when the game first came out and they face planted into Malta et al. The Council have a new bag of tricks, so there is a new learning curve as players figure out how the improved Council work and how they can best defeat them.

Edited May 10 by Rudra

[tidge]

Regular FREEM! was a surprise, but it is not insurmountable problem. Less than 10 points of KB protection isn't going to cut it, and frankly as rare as 12+ KB used to be, sure I can imagine the surprise felt by other players. Have more than 10 points of KB protection but less than 20 points? I suggest crafting a SG temp power for 90 minutes of +10 points of KB protection.

 

I also don't usually have "softcap" defenses... although I do on my main MM... but I don't think that FREEM! is an autohit. My point here is that this issue could seem worse because of the larger spawn sizes and the slightly more resistant enemies sticking around longer.

 

Even Eochai learned a thing or two from players about how to slot Bonfire!

[Infinitum]

If we are being honest with ourselves council before revamp was too easy.   

 

I think the most balanced enemy group is the crey. I run a lot of crey missions because you literally have a chance to see every damage type in every mob. 

 

I don't want to feel super powered at weak sauce fascists expense. I want to BE superpowered at the most balanced groups expense. 

 

If we are also being honest +4/8 had ceased to have meaning - then what's the point?  If everyone can do it. It loses value.  If it loses value - people lose interest.  If people lose interest - they unfortunately leave.  I have seen it first hand - and before anyone labels me as spouting git gud or pro hard mode or pro nerf - I have run my mouth on here to infinity and beyond against all of that - but I believe I was wrong at this point because of what I said above. 

[Seed22]

2 hours ago, Infinitum said:

If everyone can do it. It loses value

Not really. 
 

CoH is not competitive and the only people who care about being better than others at CoH are usually(probably always) bad at every other game that actually requires skill and is competitive, it’s like being the loser in every situation except potato chip eating then thumping your chest that you scarf down whole bags better than everyone else. 
 

I don’t care if everyone can do +4x8,  and I’m sure a lot of people don’t either because they usually are focused just on having fun. Nothing in this game has meaning, not even 4* Omega K’ong. 
 

*I should say even in games with actual skill ceilings and higher floors than the hardest content in CoH, people don’t care about what others do unless its something like Apex.

Edited May 10 by Seed22

[biostem]

22 minutes ago, Seed22 said:

Not really. 

I think you aren't seeing the forest from the trees, here;  It's not about people caring if they can perform better than anyone else;  It's about how, when the highest difficulty setting becomes the standard measure of performance that players expect to be able to solo on every character, that it becomes meaningless.  In fact, the highest difficulty setting should probably be almost impossible for all but the toughest, well-built characters, controlled by experienced players, to accomplish, (especially solo).  And just as an addendum, completing such a mission by way of you being defeated time after time, and only winning through attrition, isn't really the same thing...

Edited May 10 by biostem

[Herotu]

On 5/8/2024 at 11:11 PM, Krimson said:

To put it simply, in this superhero game, any time a player begins to feel super, it must be stopped. If anyone in this game feels empowered, they are doing something wrong which must be fixed.

It's true tho. I'd like to see some tower-defence swarm-swatting content where there are loads of weak enemies to blow up, but I daren't suggest anything anymore because of the horde of Beanbag Fans who veto every suggestion.