End game 1-4 star content AT/Powerset optimization

[Snarky]

What are considered good to have on these harder runs?

 

What are considered "that is not so good?"

 

is the break point at 2 star or 4 star where it really starts to be important?

[Neiska]

1 hour ago, Snarky said:

What are considered good to have on these harder runs?

 

What are considered "that is not so good?"

 

is the break point at 2 star or 4 star where it really starts to be important?

 

Every Hardmode I have been on included at least 2 cold corruptors to stack debuffs, and half had Ageless for the debuff protection, the other half had Barrier. Both would be juggled.

-Tanks varied, but they were either absorb tanks like Rad or Bio, or tanks with inherent -def debuff protection like Shield.

- Ice/Ice corruptors were popular.

-Someone with Nature affinity for +dam and absorb.

 

The rest varies, but those were the trends. I run with a SG where there's a signup for them. And once the must-haves are filled, there is wiggle room for other things. But it also sort of depends on the difficulty. The harder the content the less wiggle-room there was.

 

My biggest gripe about Hardmode is it kind of screws over a few ATs, like VEATS and HEATS. I don't see many Controllers, Dominators either, or Masterminds. I see a lot of Tankers, Defenders, and Corruptors. Honestly my favorite playstyle is crabber, but I have yet to bring one to any hardmode, 2 star or no. Simply because anything I could do, someone else could do better, and also bring more, be it Debuffs or whatever. And most groups I have been a part of that tried to be "meta" seem to favor high DPS with strong Debuffs as a focus.

 

I am not against there being a "meta", there will always be a "meta." I just wish the "meta" changed from TF to TF, so the same setups aren't the top-dogs for all of them. They all seem to revolve around DPS and -Def protection. I hope the Dev's make TFs that have like, -Resistance as a thing, or -tohit, or other mechanics that aren't similar to the TF hardmodes we already have. Just to mix it up a bit. Maybe have a TF where hard CC is required. Or where its not a question of surviving bursts of damage, but a long duration fight where the waves don't stop and you have to constantly fight on the move, or something. Or maybe HUGE burst damage, where maybe even a team of 2 or 3 healers are needed to heal through it. And so on.

 

This is just my personal experience mind you, I am sure others will vary.

Edited May 19 by Neiska

[Glacier Peak]

I've soloed ASF, LGTF, and ITF on 1-star difficulty on my Ice/Cold Corruptor. Lots of temporary power, inspirations, and patience investment if you want to do it solo. Be happy about being defeated and learn how to succeed at the next attempt. The benefit of doing so is you move at your own pace, you get to read through the text and find the easter eggs too.

 

I think coordination and practice is really all you need to do anything higher with a team, but I haven't seen any 4 star runs on Indomitable so I couldn't tell you with certainty. If you really want to see how each advanced mode works, jump on to the beta server and grab the Q&A tester powers from START. You can instant kill pretty much everything and you'll be nearly unkillable.

[Doomguide2005]

 

On 5/19/2024 at 12:04 AM, Glacier Peak said:

I think coordination and practice is really all you need to do anything higher with a team,

Snipped out and quoted for truth.  This is the most important factor between success and failure in any task but even more so in star content.  Knowledge is key.  After that it's far less important to do the "meta".  If we the players always listened to the meta there would not have been either all scrapper or all defender teams and task forces or Empaths completing +4/×8 content solo.

 

[arcane]

Keep in mind Snark that even if you have the right powersets, you’re going to need to change your whole style of character building. Building for defense instead of proc damage will have to go, for instance.

[Lunar Ronin]

12 minutes ago, arcane said:

Keep in mind Snark that even if you have the right powersets, you’re going to need to change your whole style of character building. Building for defense instead of proc damage will have to go, for instance.

 

No.  That's the meta for 4* speed runs, sure.  But it's not necessary for 1* or 2*, and it's not even necessary for a 4* non-speed run.

[arcane]

24 minutes ago, Lunar Ronin said:

 

No.  That's the meta for 4* speed runs, sure.  But it's not necessary for 1* or 2*, and it's not even necessary for a 4* non-speed run.

If Snarky wants to be the worst player on the team, sure, he can get by like you say.

[Maelwys]

18 minutes ago, arcane said:

Quote

Quote

Keep in mind Snark that even if you have the right powersets, you’re going to need to change your whole style of character building. Building for defense instead of proc damage will have to go, for instance.

No.  That's the meta for 4* speed runs, sure.  But it's not necessary for 1* or 2*, and it's not even necessary for a 4* non-speed run.

If Snarky wants to be the worst player on the team, sure, he can get by like you say.

[Snarky]

56 minutes ago, arcane said:

Keep in mind Snark that even if you have the right powersets, you’re going to need to change your whole style of character building. Building for defense instead of proc damage will have to go, for instance.

You might be surprised by the change in Snarky.  Okay, maybe not lol.  But I am doing strange "strategy" builds now. 

 

Like having a Dark Dark Corr with a Mag 2 stun PBAoE toggle and a mag 2 stun AoE ranged so I can mag 4 stun mobs as I come in to Blackstar.  

 

Or a Fire Fire Fire Blaster built for maximum damage as the solution to ALL problems.  

 

Or a AR/Dev Blaster built for +65% range and large +damage rather than focusing on ranged defense.  (was my prelude to Fire Blaster Idea)

 

Granted, these are my edge cases.  But they show my thinking in the last year.  Then on high end teams barrier, and communication/teamwork, allows for success.

[Snarky]

4 minutes ago, Maelwys said:

I actually got a 30 min lecture in discord when I brought up a Dom to a crew coming over from another game and starting 1/2 star content.  Part of the reason I started this topic.

[Snarky]

25 minutes ago, arcane said:

If Snarky wants to be the worst player on the team, sure, he can get by like you say.

errrrr... thanks?....  

[Lunar Ronin]

23 minutes ago, arcane said:

If Snarky wants to be the worst player on the team, sure, he can get by like you say.

 

Again, relying on Barrier Core Destiny rotation and three Cold Corruptors as a crutch and proc-bombing out your powers is the meta and very effective for 4* speed runs.  It is however completely unnecessary in 1* or 2*, and all non-speed runs.  There are other effective, albeit possibly slower, strategies. 

[Maelwys]

Just now, Snarky said:

errrrr... thanks?....  

Ehh, "worst" is vague. That could be taken to mean "most evil and vampirific player" rather than "most useless player".
Just embrace the compliment that suggests you're the bestest at leaning into your chosen trope... 😉 🧛‍♂️

[arcane]

Snarky: asks for advice on how to play

Snarky: gets advice on how to play

Everyone else: how dare you tell him how to play! You must be a fun nazi!

[Lunar Ronin]

Just now, arcane said:

Snarky: asks for advice on how to play

Snarky: gets advice on how to play

Everyone else: how dare you tell him how to play! You must be a fun nazi!

 

I said that your advice is true... For 4* speed runs.  Snarky didn't specifically mention 4*, nor even speed runs.  Just advanced modes.  You don't need what you said for advanced modes in general.

 

You're so far stuck chasing the meta that you are entirely ignorant to other possibilities and strategies.

[arcane]

Just now, Lunar Ronin said:

 

I said that your advice is true... For 4* speed runs.  Snarky didn't specifically mention 4*, nor even speed runs.  Just advanced modes.  You don't need what you said for advanced modes in general.

 

You're so far stuck chasing the meta that you are entirely ignorant to other possibilities and strategies.

First of all, I’m not convinced that any ole build can handle a non-speed 4*. Show me a screenshot of Snarky holding Excalibonk and I’ll gladly admit I’m wrong.

 

Second of all, I don’t recall Snarky asking us to limit our responses to only being relevant to 1*/2*.

 

If that renders me ignorant, have at it.

[Seed22]

11 minutes ago, arcane said:

First of all, I’m not convinced that any ole build can handle a non-speed 4*. Show me a screenshot of Snarky holding Excalibonk and I’ll gladly admit I’m wrong.

 

Second of all, I don’t recall Snarky asking us to limit our responses to only being relevant to 1*/2*.

 

If that renders me ignorant, have at it.

Ehhhhh I think you might be overstating the difficulty of 4* just a bit. 
 

I’ve done too many to count, and while most had me as a Cold either corr or fender, I also brought a Fire/Dark corr that focused on damage, Tohit Debuff, and had ehhh I dunno at least 35%-40% ranged def? 
 

I should mention i did a LOT of HM when it first came out and lead one of the first successful HM ITFs while stoned, and it wasn’t a 1 or 2 star. I’ve also been on blitz 4* ITFs while stoned and it only had 1 cold in it I believe. This content really isn’t some uber minmax thing like it’s made out to be. 
 

 

Sure you’re “stun stack” builds or “range capped” builds won’t contribute as much as say the meta, but it won’t drag the team as much as you think. Again, I would know, I’ve seen my fair share of all starred content ranging from 2*-4*. All kinds of team comps. 
 

The biggest determinant? Being able to read. Like holy shit this is SERIOUSLY the biggest issue. If you can’t fucking read, your HM run will be shit. 
 

*grumbles about dumb team members who couldn’t read about breaking LOS for Rommy* 

Edited May 20 by Seed22

[arcane]

4 minutes ago, Seed22 said:

Ehhhhh I think you might be overstating the difficulty of 4* just a bit. 
 

I’ve done too many to count, and while most had me as a Cold either corr or fender, I also brought a Fire/Dark corr that focused on damage, Tohit Debuff, and had ehhh I dunno at least 35%-40% ranged def? 
 

I should mention i did a LOT of HM when it first came out and lead one of the first successful HM ITFs while stoned, and it wasn’t a 1 or 2 star. I’ve also been on blitz 4* ITFs while stoned and it only had 1 cold in it I believe. This content really isn’t some uber minmax thing like it’s made out to be. 
 

 

Sure you’re “stun stack” builds or “range capped” builds won’t contribute as much as say the meta, but it won’t drag the team as much as you think. Again, I would know, I’ve seen my fair share of all starred content ranging from 2*-4*. All kinds of team comps. 
 

The biggest determinant? Being able to read. Like holy shit this is SERIOUSLY the biggest issue. If you can’t fucking read, your HM run will be shit. 
 

*grumbles about dumb team members who couldn’t read about breaking LOS for Rommy* 

In my experience thus far:

 

4* Aeon - joined a lot of pugs for this, always easy

 

4* ITF - likely to be a real slog with a subpar team but not unbeatable 

 

4* LGTF - likely to be a real slog with a subpar team but not unbeatable 

 

4* LGTF Bonk Run - more of less impossible with a subpar team

[Doomguide2005]

What's needed isn't Barrier ... it's the ability to render sufficient mitigation to overcome incoming damage.  Which as always is a mix of defense, resistance, regeneration and the ability to maintain it.  In fact with foes with auto hit abilities or unresistable powers etc. one or more of these may not be relevant to survival.  It boils down to a math equation with a bunch of variables to manipulate.

 

• And Knowledge (and its companion situational awareness)
• Like what you might get reading chat from those who have done it before 

[Snarky]

4 minutes ago, Doomguide2005 said:

What's needed isn't Barrier ... it's the ability to render sufficient mitigation to overcome incoming damage.  Which as always is a mix of defense, resistance, regeneration and the ability to maintain it.  In fact with foes with auto hit abilities or unresistable powers etc. one or more of these may not be relevant to survival.  It boils down to a math equation with a bunch of variables to manipulate.

 

• And Knowledge (and its companion situational awareness)
• Like what you might get reading chat from those who have done it before 

yeah, i also got a 30 min lecture on how a Dark Tank not built for soft capped defense was useless in a higher starred TF.  I build mine for maximum resistance because Dark has no defense debuff resistance and the faux defense of stun, fear, non suppressing stealth, and to hit debuffs. (dark/dark). was told to rework it to maintain those resistances??? softcap defenses, and max the health pool.....   ???  any ideas on that lololol

Tanker - Dark Dark v7.2.mbd

[arcane]

1 minute ago, Snarky said:

yeah, i also got a 30 min lecture on how a Dark Tank not built for soft capped defense was useless in a higher starred TF.  I build mine for maximum resistance because Dark has no defense debuff resistance and the faux defense of stun, fear, non suppressing stealth, and to hit debuffs. (dark/dark). was told to rework it to maintain those resistances??? softcap defenses, and max the health pool.....   ???  any ideas on that lololol

Tanker - Dark Dark v7.2.mbd 43.41 kB · 0 downloads

You don’t need defenses on a Dark Tank for starred content. Your lecturer was wrong.

[Doomguide2005]

41 minutes ago, arcane said:

You don’t need defenses on a Dark Tank for starred content. Your lecturer was wrong.

Yeah!!!

I mean all those required Colds have to have someone to buff.

[Ukase]

There's a proverb that states many counsels assure victory. 
I'm no authority on hard modes. Or even advanced math. But I do know words. A lot of them. 

And the biggest key is what Doomguide2005 stated it is. 
Reading, and/or I suppose, if you're on Discord, actively listening. 

I'm not what I would consider a highly skilled player compared to others I've teamed with in the past. Just a notch above average on a good day. But, if the team just takes things one mob at a time, the entire 1*tf is time consuming, but easy enough if you've done it before. 

 

[Sanguinesun]

Mostly, starred content starts to really be a puzzle game.  AT, powersets, builds, and the composition of the group/group dynamics. One could even say there's merits to having different combinations for the different 4 stars as well (though to lesser degrees).  

 

In the most distilled essence of what is good to have on these runs:  people in dedicated teams who know how to work together and build builds solely around this niche of the game.  Pugs otherwise at this stage of HC's evolution of this content are just a dice roll with modifiers :P.

[Snarky]

My ine big takeaway from this.  (And there has been a LOT of good info and takeaways) is that once you get to 4star anything too far outside the perfect AT and even power choices are just a carry.   
 

Now, we all know we are not getting the bug hunter badge.  But many of us at least harbor dreams of getting most/all of the badges.  To see the 4 star badges and things like Excalibonk being reserved for X AT/ Y Powerset / Z power picks / DeltaC slotting….   I find that kind of sad.  
 

I know people have asked for hard content.  So something had to give.  And what gave where all the character actors.  So the stars can get the badges, marquees, and big paydays