End game 1-4 star content AT/Powerset optimization

[Sanguinesun]

23 minutes ago, Snarky said:

My ine big takeaway from this.  (And there has been a LOT of good info and takeaways) is that once you get to 4star anything too far outside the perfect AT and even power choices are just a carry.   
 

Now, we all know we are not getting the bug hunter badge.  But many of us at least harbor dreams of getting most/all of the badges.  To see the 4 star badges and things like Excalibonk being reserved for X AT/ Y Powerset / Z power picks / DeltaC slotting….   I find that kind of sad.  
 

I know people have asked for hard content.  So something had to give.  And what gave where all the character actors.  So the stars can get the badges, marquees, and big paydays

 

The majority of the player base dont pedestal the starred content.

[Neiska]

One thing to keep in mind @Snarky is that like any other activity, different people will have different approaches to hardmodes. Some people will want to complete with the character they enjoy, even if it isn't minmaxed to the umpteenth degree. Others will want the easiest, smoothest ride possible. I was in one pug where one person threw a tantrum when it wasn't a "flawless" run. Different people have different priorities.

 

Personally, I would rather run things with people whom I enjoy playing with, even if its more difficult to complete the activity. We have yet to come across something we haven't completed or finished. Sure, people may die a lot, and we may have to step back and regroup. But honestly, how often does a team fail and everyone quit and leave? I am hard pressed to think of when that has happened to me. I can likely count on one hand how many times that has happened to me in 4 years of HC gameplay.

 

If you aren't a minmaxer, then don't team with minmaxers. I am sure you will find people who don't mind you being a dark/dark tank or something else. Though to be fair here, I have yet to finish a 4 star with my crabber. I've done 2 star stuff, but most pugs who do 4 star want "only the best" ATs and powersets. So perhaps find a group of friends or SG mates who share the same approach to activities?

[Scarlet Shocker]

19 hours ago, arcane said:

If Snarky wants to be the worst player on the team, sure, he can get by like you say.

 

You seem to be operating under the misapprehension that there is only one way to play this game at tougher levels.

[arcane]

1 hour ago, Scarlet Shocker said:

 

You seem to be operating under the misapprehension that there is only one way to play this game at tougher levels.

If I’m wrong and you’re right, the screenshot of Snarky with Excalibonk will be easy to produce. I’ll wait.

[Snarky]

2 minutes ago, arcane said:

If I’m wrong and you’re right, the screenshot of Snarky with Excalibonk will be easy to produce. I’ll wait.

Please hold your breath lol.  No, seriously, I am asking these questions because I am just getting into this content.  I can remember 1 4 star aeon from a couple years ago where Cosmic Council pretty much carried me.  Now I am doing 1-2 star LGTF and ITF on Blasters and sometimes a Tank.  Maybe 10? total runs.  15?  So.... Excalibonk may/may not happen.

[Scarlet Shocker]

35 minutes ago, arcane said:

 I’ll wait.

 

Go right ahead. I'm playing the game my way not the way you think I should. I have more fun that way

[Neiska]

9 hours ago, arcane said:

If I’m wrong and you’re right, the screenshot of Snarky with Excalibonk will be easy to produce. I’ll wait.

 

Wish Granted. Here is a 100% Authentic picture of @Snarky's Exalibonk.

 

Edited May 21 by Neiska

[Projector]

On 5/20/2024 at 4:11 PM, Snarky said:

once you get to 4star anything too far outside the perfect AT and even power choices are just a carry.   

Quick disclaimer: My entire reply is specifically about 4* content, not 1*-3*.

I tend to agree on the "just a carry" portion, for sure. The problem with this comes in the fact that many people have been the carry in a 4* team, but did not think they were being carried, so you hear things like, "Yeah, I did a 4* on my regular slotted blaster with no problem! You don't need 4* builds or anything"

They fail to realize they missed the majority of their attacks, and the attacks that did hit basically tickled enemies. My rad/fire melee tank that has a 4* optimized build for max dps still once only hit Dra'Gon for like 5 damage with Greater Fire Sword the other day. The resists are just that high. I did my role as a tank, no problem, but I won't pretend like I actually contributed to the dps output for the Omega K'ong fight.

So yes, you can play anything on a 4* run, provided you have 6-7 other people that are all optimized and willing to carry you through it. Though, at that point you're basically just a walking Barrier user and that's about it. The exception here being a Tank/Brute with taunt (or scrapper with their ST taunt in ITF/Aeon since it's mostly solo target kills in those). These are the most likely to be able to waltz into 4* content with a non-optimized build and meaningfully contribute through actual tanking skills, such as keeping enemies facing away from the team, or thoughtfully dragging the Assault Suits to where their null fields won't threaten your team at all when they explode. 

 

I brought a Kin on a 4* run yesterday who had a regular PvE build that did not have high accuracy, and he was missing critical buffs the majority of the time. We succeeded, but it was way more stressful for the team and it was way less fun for him to see "deflected" the majority of the time.

And I think that fun factor is a huge contributing factor. Being a carry in a 4* TF is like being a lowbie on a +4 ITF or a fire farm. Sure, slogging through a +4 KM ITF with your incarnated, fully built 50 toon is fun, but being even level 49 without proper enhancements in that same situation SUCKS. Every time I have brought a lowbie to a KM, even if it had training IOs in it, was just an absolute miserable time. Pretty sure your damage is so low you are actively healing EBs when they use Unstoppable 😂

It doesn't feel good to see such low damage numbers, miss most of the time, and die in 2-3 hits because everything is +5 to you. Some times I have even felt quite a bit of guilt for bringing a lowbie in those situations, thinking I may as well be sitting AFK in a farm for all the nothing I'm contributing to the team.

Aside from that, I genuinely don't think the Omega K'ong fight is actually possible without dps-optimized builds and proper debuffing (that needs to actually hit its target, such as Benumb, Heat Loss, Acid Arrow, Lingering Rad, etc.). Even then, if you miss a single heal or are slightly out of position, then someone is going to die, throwing off a lot of rhythm and complicating the fight significantly. The Excalibonk, in my mind, is the single hardest thing to acquire because of the sheer amount of prep work, understanding of movement/timing, and dps/debuffing needed to succeed in that fight.

The last thing I will add on this point is that there is one more thing optimized builds do: They show that someone actually cares enough to take the content seriously. It's called hard mode for a reason, and someone waltzing in thinking that it's going to be just another TF is in for a rude awakening. I have encountered some massive toxicity from players like this who thought doing hard mode content should be easy or simple for any AT, and they don't listen, think the leader's instructions aren't a big deal or are optional (such as barrier calls), and don't know how to position properly. And usually the biggest problem players on the teams are those who brought "whatever" into a 4* team.

These are the players spamming holds on the green Nictus barrier in an ITF and telling you to STFU when you ask them to stop, or dying to every single Brickernaut despite clear instructions being given and everyone spamming RUN so much that they got chat timeouts, then after the 5th or 6th time STILL raging that they don't know why they keep dying and going on about how their build is so great and something must be wrong with the game.

These are the players ignoring Shimmering Essences when fighting Ripplesurge, or getting up close and personal with the Hostless or trying to become one with the Assault Suits in death. And somehow, these are always the players who perfectly time being dear or are too far away from the team when it's their turn to barrier, so the team wipes seconds later.

I'm not saying a 4* optimized builds means someone is going to know how to do those things, but it tells me that they likely care enough to listen to direction and be a team player, and they are willing to learn from the mistakes they make. That matters to me more than anything else, because it tells me that you value not only your time, but my time and the team's time, as well.
 

Quote

many of us at least harbor dreams of getting most/all of the badges.  To see the 4 star badges and things like Excalibonk being reserved for X AT/ Y Powerset / Z power picks / DeltaC slotting….   I find that kind of sad.  

There aren't any badges gated to 4* content that I am aware of.   Otherwise, there wouldn't be so many people out there that have collected all of the badges without having ever touched 4* content. Any hardmode badges can be gotten at 1* difficulty, and it hardly takes more to do a 1* than it does to do a regular speed. Just a little more knowledge about TF mechanics.

Thanks for coming to my TED Talk! This is all my opinion from my experiences doing 4* content with PUGs and with premade teams, so I'm happy to hear other opinions and experiences too! 

EDIT: Had a sentence out of place lol

Edited May 23 by Projector

[RelativeQuanta]

4 hours ago, Projector said:

I brought a Kin on a 4* run yesterday who had a regular PvE build that did not have high accuracy, and he was missing critical buffs the majority of the time. We succeeded, but it was way more stressful for the team and it was way less fun for him to see "deflected" the majority of the time.

How much accuracy/to-hit is needed for a 4*?  Am I fine if I'm at 95% chance to hit against +4?

[Maelwys]

20 hours ago, RelativeQuanta said:

Quote

I brought a Kin on a 4* run yesterday who had a regular PvE build that did not have high accuracy, and he was missing critical buffs the majority of the time. We succeeded, but it was way more stressful for the team and it was way less fun for him to see "deflected" the majority of the time.

How much accuracy/to-hit is needed for a 4*?  Am I fine if I'm at 95% chance to hit against +4?

Is that a 95% chance to hit a +4 in 4* content or a 95% to hit a +4 foe in regular content?

In 4* content all enemies gain +30% Defense[All] as a baseline (see here) so even without any other buffs/debuffs in play, you'd want to aim for 125%+ in Mids etc. in order to actually cap your chances of hitting them.
If you're not getting any teammate buffs (unlikely!) then hitting that number might require some build concessions. For a regular 1.0 modifier power; you'd be looking at a very rough ballpark of ED-capped Accuracy% slotting + a Kismet IO + Tactics + another ~30% accuracy from Set Bonuses. If you only really care about a single long-recharge ability (e.g. Fulcrum Shift) and have access to something like "Aim" + the Gaussian Proc then that might help a bit; but you'd be underperforming the rest of the time.

In practice it really depends on what debuffs/buffs are in play; and also on what else you can bring to the table. My /Kin MM's regular PVE build actually has a 125% hit chance vs +4s with Fulcrum Shift (and his personal attacks), 131% with Transference and 143% with Transfusion... but he'd still not exactly be my first choice for running 4* content.
 

Edited May 24 by Maelwys

[RelativeQuanta]

12 minutes ago, Maelwys said:

Is that a 95% chance to hit a +4 in 4* content or a 95% to hit a +4 foe in regular content?

In 4* content all enemies gain +30% Defense[All] as a baseline (see here) so even without any other buffs/debuffs in play, you'd want to aim for 125%+ in Mids etc. in order to to actually cap your chances of hitting them.
If you're not getting any teammate buffs (unlikely!) then hitting that number might require some build concessions. For a regular 1.0 modifier power; you'd be looking at a very rough ballpark of ED-capped Accuracy% slotting + a Kismet IO + Tactics + another ~30% accuracy from Set Bonuses. If you only really care about a single long-recharge ability (e.g. Fulcrum Shift) and have access to something like "Aim" + the Gaussian Proc then that might help a bit; but you'd be underperforming the rest of the time.

In practice it really depends on what debuffs/buffs are in play; and also on what else you can bring to the table. My /Kin MM's regular PVE build actually has a 125% hit chance vs +4s with Fulcrum Shift (and his personal attacks), 131% with Transference and 143% with Transfusion... but he'd still not exactly be my first choice for running 4* content.
 

I was speaking of regular content.  Nice to know that my build should work, though I'd have to switch to Vigor Radial from Intuition radial to get the needed to-hit.  Though, I'm not likely to ever try.  Thanks!

[Projector]

On 5/23/2024 at 3:35 PM, RelativeQuanta said:

How much accuracy/to-hit is needed for a 4*?  Am I fine if I'm at 95% chance to hit against +4?

@Maelwys Covered this just fine, but to put it in even simpler terms: I aim for at least 50% Accuracy total in Mids when building for 4-star content specifically. To see this specific stat, click the View Totals button near the top, then go to the second tab, and you will see Accuracy at the bottom under To-hit. This is usually accomplished with 3-4 purple sets that have the 10% Accuracy set bonus dropped into a few slot mules and one ATO set. Two of these mules are usually your T1 blast (like ice or fire blast) and Brawl. On one of my tanks, I actually took Ring of Fire and threw 5 Gravitational Anchors into it as a mule, too. Though, that occasionally does get used when fighting Zoe for the first time in the Aeon SF.

Comparing to the Kin I referenced in my first comment, I looked at that Kin's build from yesterday and his accuracy was at 15% and he was also not running Vigor.

For a Kin, especially if you're a corruptor, my current understanding is that it's optimal to go Vigor Core, not Radial or Intuition. The healing and accuracy boost is pretty massive, especially considering that out of the box, Corruptors don't heal/buff as much as Defenders do. 

I am also not trying to be an expert here. This is advice I have been taught, have found clear success with, and have adopted into my own approach to building. I'm sure your build is great for regular content though, so I hope you're finding a lot of success. Hope this helps! 

 

[Ukase]

On 5/23/2024 at 10:10 AM, Projector said:

there is one more thing optimized builds do: They show that someone actually cares enough to take the content seriously

Seriously? Damn right! This is why I start kitting out my characters for normal, bland, every day content at level 7. I struggle to decide if the set bonuses carry more weight at level 25, or if this particular character will benefit more from using SOs until level 40. 

I completely get it. I just wish I had faster reflexes and was as good at jousting as I'd like to be. I've been carried through the lgtf 1* knowing nothing, then got carried a little less the next. My last run, I felt like I did just fine with my character that was built specifically for the 4*. But it was just a 1*. 

Riddle: What did the tank say when the kin executed transfusion after the suit drained their endurance, lost toggles and almost died? 
Punchline: Nice recovery!

Finnkill actually said that after a near team wipe and everyone lost their endurance. And he had no idea he made a pun because he was too focused on the moment. 

I was only watching the stream of it when he said it, so I picked the pun out and called the night a win for me. 

You think 4* is hard? Try doing it with me chastising you for not realizing you made a joke when you're trying to call for a clarion. 

 

 

[Projector]

28 minutes ago, Ukase said:

Finnkill actually said that after a near team wipe and everyone lost their endurance. And he had no idea he made a pun because he was too focused on the moment. 

I was only watching the stream of it when he said it, so I picked the pun out and called the night a win for me. 

Sounds like you hard-carried your team, not the other way around. haha. That Recovery pun call out is beautiful and I respect you forever for it.

 

Even 1*s get hectic, especially a 1* ITF where there are just constant streams of enemies and chaos happening. Aeon and LGTF feel fast-paced in movement, but ITF can be wild. The Shadow Crystal mission is make or break for many teams. lol. So don't feel bad for feeling lost or feeling like you were carried.

 

Regardless of whether you were carried through or not, a player with your mindset, who is seriously trying and wanting to learn and understand it is exactly the kind of player I would want to bring along. I would just make sure you aren't on a pivotal role on the team until you feel more comfortable. It's really hard to play a kin in a situation where you have no idea what's going on, for example. 

Honestly, my method for LGTF doesn't really involve a whole lot of jousting, or even needing faster reflexes. You can navigate most of these fights with anticipation. If I know an Assault Suit is getting low, for example, I will make it a point to not use any long animation powers. As much as it's within my power, I'm not going to hit "Inferno" right next to a low assault suit. I will reposition first, then use it. You also get clear visual indicators before Kong is going to jump corners in a 4*--the gas stops. Now, he probably won't jump for another 5-10 seconds after that, but you know that it's coming, and you can plan play with that in mind. Not saying that any of these situations happened to you, or that you would do these things, I just mean they are examples of things that people commonly think of "reactive" situations that can actually be approached proactively.

 

Usually the unexpected things that require an instant reaction are things that will kill more experienced/knowledgeable players, too, so don't knock yourself there, either. 
 

[Glacier Peak]

I just did a 1-star LGTF over the weekend on Indomitable (shout out Indom Badge Runs at the link below) and we ran the first mission at +4/8 with a pick up team of 7 and no AT/powerset requirements. It was the first time for the majority of the players and my first time leading it (I've only ever soloed 1-star). Everyone seemed to do fine at that difficulty, but I went ahead and ran it at -1/1 for the rest of the TF because it was a badge(s) run. Surprisingly, the enemies actually changed to lower level and went to 7 player spawn size. 

 

If any players are worried about difficulty, hopefully my anecdote gives them confidence to run advanced mode content. It's a lot of fun and there's really cool enemy encounters to enjoy.

 

 

Edited June 3 by Glacier Peak

[BurtHutt]

I haven't done much hard mode stuff but I've done enough where you know a regular toon won't cut it. 

 

I think the biggest issue is the accuracy maybe? Is there a thread discussing which ATs would be best for each of the hard mode TFs/SFs? I wonder if any 4* content has eliminated an AT or made it less desirable?

[Azari]

On 5/19/2024 at 12:03 AM, Neiska said:

 

Every Hardmode I have been on included at least 2 cold corruptors to stack debuffs, and half had Ageless for the debuff protection, the other half had Barrier. Both would be juggled.

-Tanks varied, but they were either absorb tanks like Rad or Bio, or tanks with inherent -def debuff protection like Shield.

- Ice/Ice corruptors were popular.

-Someone with Nature affinity for +dam and absorb.

 

The rest varies, but those were the trends. I run with a SG where there's a signup for them. And once the must-haves are filled, there is wiggle room for other things. But it also sort of depends on the difficulty. The harder the content the less wiggle-room there was.

 

My biggest gripe about Hardmode is it kind of screws over a few ATs, like VEATS and HEATS. I don't see many Controllers, Dominators either, or Masterminds. I see a lot of Tankers, Defenders, and Corruptors. Honestly my favorite playstyle is crabber, but I have yet to bring one to any hardmode, 2 star or no. Simply because anything I could do, someone else could do better, and also bring more, be it Debuffs or whatever. And most groups I have been a part of that tried to be "meta" seem to favor high DPS with strong Debuffs as a focus.

 

I am not against there being a "meta", there will always be a "meta." I just wish the "meta" changed from TF to TF, so the same setups aren't the top-dogs for all of them. They all seem to revolve around DPS and -Def protection. I hope the Dev's make TFs that have like, -Resistance as a thing, or -tohit, or other mechanics that aren't similar to the TF hardmodes we already have. Just to mix it up a bit. Maybe have a TF where hard CC is required. Or where its not a question of surviving bursts of damage, but a long duration fight where the waves don't stop and you have to constantly fight on the move, or something. Or maybe HUGE burst damage, where maybe even a team of 2 or 3 healers are needed to heal through it. And so on.

 

This is just my personal experience mind you, I am sure others will vary.

A hard mode TF with lots of -tohit would be a pain in the ass because how many powers actually have tohit debuff protection?  All I know of is Focused Accuracy. How many ways are there to negate tohit debuffs in this game aside from using FA or spamming yellow insps?

[Neiska]

7 hours ago, Azari said:

A hard mode TF with lots of -tohit would be a pain in the ass because how many powers actually have tohit debuff protection?  All I know of is Focused Accuracy. How many ways are there to negate tohit debuffs in this game aside from using FA or spamming yellow insps?

 

You are likely right, but that was just an example for context. It just seems like all the hardmodes have the same mechanics and debuffs, which make certain ATs and powersets to be too meta. I just wish they would mix it up a bit so that wasn't the case.

[Ukase]

My understanding is this "meta", where you have tank, ice/cold corrs, a kin and some other dps, are for the speedy runs of the Advanced modes. 
For the 2 hour Advanced Modes, I don't know that you need complex builds that give up fight pool in exchange for max HP and recharge. I'm certain they help, tho. 

The difference in something like Freeze Ray when it's proc'd vs when it's not is noticeable - if all the procs actually fire in the same shot. They won't always fire. The math doesn't support it. Bitter Freeze Ray? Every time. Burn from a fire blaster's secondary - every time. (assuming no recharges slotted in the power)

The marginal differences will add up. And really - the build isn't as important as the player behind the build. If you kill adds without needing to and you have a kin on your team - have you hurt your team because of a weaker fulcrum shift? Perhaps! It's at least the 3rd time I've mentioned this specific example because it floors me that @loc thinks about stuff like that. I'm still stunned. I am the guy that will kill those adds with a blizzard (or try to) without thinking about such things. At least, I was. A bit more careful about it now. 

From where I sit, if you have the team discipline to keep the barriers and clarion staggered, (and don't have a team of optimized builds) you'll probably do okay. Not speedy, but okay. 
And by okay, you and your team will die a LOT. 

In normal content, a blaster is considered by some to be a glass cannon. Not my style, but okay. Some play real close to the edge of defeat. Others, like me, not so close. Slow is smooth, smooth is fast. The same way people learn to play their ATs and powersets, they'll pick up things as they run the advanced mode tfs more often. Practice may not make perfect, but it will improve things. 
I think the advanced modes, in some fashion are going to go through some changes in tactics as more people try more things. Some will stick with what's worked for them, of course. 
Others may try to improve upon the times, and others might try an all MM advanced mode TF for the kicks and grins of it. (and they really should!) 

I am unconvinced that the current meta will stay the meta in the long run.