Remove NoPhase Entirely, or from Hibernate

[AbathurPendris]

One of the biggest pet peeves I have with this game is the power NoPhase.  It is extremely poorly designed and the implementation wasn't thought through at all.  Even worse, it is completely unnecessary since phase powers were altered in the PvP environment so as to allow phased characters to attack each other.

 

This work around was put in place to stop characters from chaining the phasing mechanics so as to be completely untouchable 100% of the time.  This was conceived to combat the issue in the PvP environment, however it was enabled for the PvE environment too. 

 

Let's look at just one unintended consequence, and the reason I will never play Ice Armor while NoPhase exists. The Tanker power Hibernate has a recharge time of 120 seconds and a duration of up to 30 seconds.  It is affected by recharge reduction enhancements as well as set bonuses. With the advent of NoPhase, an Ice Armor Tanker went from being able to activate Hibernate as much as once every 24 seconds (at max recharge reduction) to once every 120 to 150 seconds.  This was a strait up nerf to the set that went unacknowledged at the time.  Did Ice Armor need to be nerfed?  Was Hibernate too strong of an ability?  I will debate until the cows come home that it was not called for, however the bigger issue in my view was the sudden lack of indication for if Hibernate could be used.  NoPhase lasts for 120 seconds and has NO visual indicator showing when it will wear off.  Compound this with the fact that NoPhase begins 30 seconds after the power ACTIVATES and you get up to an additional 30 seconds to try to time if you don't stay in Hibernate for it's full duration.  Ever thought about if you can risk the next fight because Unstoppable is almost recharged?  Do you watch the seconds count down until you can use Drain Psyche again?  What if you had NO CLUE as to when your power would be usable again?  That's what Ice Armor's with Hibernate have to deal with.

 

Does NoPhase still serve a purpose in PvE?  Is there content that can't be stealthed or ignored with high defense/resistance but can be skipped with Phase?  I don't think so, but I'm not versed in every aspect of the game, especially the newest +4 Task Force content.  Hibernate cannot be used to stealth through missions though, as you're immobile and cannot effect enemies so that isn't applicable to this power. How would the elimination of NoPhase for Hibernate break the game? If Ice armor or Hibernate need to be balanced I'm all for it, but the clunky and frustrating mechanic that is NoPhase has no place being that balancing mechanic.

[Glacier Peak]

Seems like decent design compromise on a Tanker, *and for other Archetypes that have access to it. 

 

Looking at the other T9 powers that don't crash and recharge quickly like Hibernate (120 seconds base recharge) and don't last long (30 seconds), the only real comparison is Granite Armor, but it has it's own self debuffs to balance that. 

 

And the other T9 powers last longer in duration, but have crashes and recharge much longer:

1. Unstoppable, Power Surge, Elude (1000 seconds base recharge),
2. Meltdown (480 seconds base recharge),
3. One with the Shield (360 seconds base recharge), 
4. Strength of Will (300 seconds base recharge).

 

I think your feedback is on the status effect 'NoPhase' though, which displays a temporary power icon on the player's health bar while in that status effect until the lock out timer is removed. Is this something that isn't showing for you?

Edited May 26 by Glacier Peak

[SeraphimKensai]

NoPhase was not just a PvP design, it was also implemented for PvE so that a character couldn't just sit in phase forever (phase shift used to be a toggle that you could keep on indefinitely if your end could support it, if memory is correct the end cost was something like 0.65 end/sec) and get rewards for not being in any risk.

 

And yes hibernate was too strong without NoPhase condition given its recharge. They could remove the NoPhase aspect of it if they compensated and increased the recharge of the power but that would reduce the effectiveness of hibernate overall.

 

That said many ice tankers don't just sit around in hibernate anyways.

[AbathurPendris]

8 hours ago, Glacier Peak said:

I think your feedback is on the status effect 'NoPhase' though, which displays a temporary power icon on the player's health bar while in that status effect until the lock out timer is removed. Is this something that isn't showing for you?

The power icon shows up, however there is no in-game indication for it's duration.  There's no numerical countdown or visual growth indicator essentially making Hibernate's cooldown a guessing game. 

[AbathurPendris]

3 hours ago, SeraphimKensai said:

NoPhase was not just a PvP design, it was also implemented for PvE so that a character couldn't just sit in phase forever (phase shift used to be a toggle that you could keep on indefinitely if your end could support it, if memory is correct the end cost was something like 0.65 end/sec) and get rewards for not being in any risk.

 

And yes hibernate was too strong without NoPhase condition given its recharge. They could remove the NoPhase aspect of it if they compensated and increased the recharge of the power but that would reduce the effectiveness of hibernate overall.

 

That said many ice tankers don't just sit around in hibernate anyways.

Now that we have the mechanic for timed toggles, wouldn't that reasoning for NoPhase in PvE be obsolete? 

 

How would increasing the recharge time of Hibernate reduce it's effectiveness?  In what way could that be addressed?  Though I'm just guessing it's an IO vs. SO issue, it could be made to stay at a set cooldown time like Strength of Will.  

 

I don't believe Hibernate is overpowered with or without NoPhase.  Solo, it's a nice survivability tool, but in teams it's extremely hard to use because it means your not tanking for up to 30 seconds and your teammates can steal the agro from you.  However I would personally be okay with nerfs if it meant getting rid of NoPhase.

Edited May 26 by AbathurPendris

[Glacier Peak]

3 hours ago, AbathurPendris said:

The power icon shows up, however there is no in-game indication for it's duration.  There's no numerical countdown or visual growth indicator essentially making Hibernate's cooldown a guessing game. 

I guess I am just not grasping what you mean. There is in-game indication for it's duration - it says 120 seconds in the temporary power's description. It's an auto temporary power that is granted then removed, so I don't think it can have a countdown timer or blinking effect, if that's what you are advocating for.

 

 

Players can use the visual queue on their status bar to see whether NoPhase is active or not. 

 

NoPhase is currently not active.

 

NoPhase temporary power is granted after activating Hibernate.

 

Hibernate breaks after 30 seconds, NoPhase continues for 90 seconds (of the 120 second duration).

 

NoPhase is currently not active.

Edited May 26 by Glacier Peak

[AbathurPendris]

1 hour ago, Glacier Peak said:

I guess I am just not grasping what you mean. There is in-game indication for it's duration - it says 120 seconds in the temporary power's description. It's an auto temporary power that is granted then removed, so I don't think it can have a countdown timer or blinking effect, if that's what you are advocating for.

No, you're absolutely correct.  That is exactly what I am advocating for, or its removal.  I want to know how long until I can use Hibernate again.  Almost, if not every other power gives you a countdown or power recharge indicator until you can use it again.  I know how how long it will take for Hasten to recharge, but I have to guess at how long until I can use Hibernate again.  I find that exceedingly frustrating.

[TheZag]

I agree with the reasons for the original implementation of NoPhase,  but its highly debatable that the tiny buff icons are a usable indicator for when a power is usable again.  Buff icons dont have a time remaining number or change in size as their duration completes.  They can start flashing when about to expire but that is unreliable at best as buff icons bounce around constantly in combat.

 

We have timed toggles now so NoPhase isnt needed to drop an individual toggle but it may still be needed to prevent the activation of a second phase power.  Having a recharged ability but with remaining cooldown through the lockout period of a temporary power that is granted and then later revoked and doesnt display that cooldown period in a way consistent with every other power in the game is kinda janky.  (And if that sentence was word salad,  I'd say it represents the current state of implementation accurately).

 

Yes,  hibernate isnt that critical most of the time,  but we are playing a game where cooldowns are king.  Have the icon grow at the speed of the NoPhase timer or slap its timer on the icon but dont leave a recharged power that isnt 'recharged' with a hardly usable indicator for when its ready.

 

[Glacier Peak]

4 hours ago, TheZag said:

I agree with the reasons for the original implementation of NoPhase,  but its highly debatable that the tiny buff icons are a usable indicator for when a power is usable again.  Buff icons dont have a time remaining number or change in size as their duration completes.  They can start flashing when about to expire but that is unreliable at best as buff icons bounce around constantly in combat.

 

We have timed toggles now so NoPhase isnt needed to drop an individual toggle but it may still be needed to prevent the activation of a second phase power.  Having a recharged ability but with remaining cooldown through the lockout period of a temporary power that is granted and then later revoked and doesnt display that cooldown period in a way consistent with every other power in the game is kinda janky.  (And if that sentence was word salad,  I'd say it represents the current state of implementation accurately).

 

Yes,  hibernate isnt that critical most of the time,  but we are playing a game where cooldowns are king.  Have the icon grow at the speed of the NoPhase timer or slap its timer on the icon but dont leave a recharged power that isnt 'recharged' with a hardly usable indicator for when its ready.

 

NoPhase is a temporary auto power. It's recharge can't be affected. It will remain the same regardless of any buffs. It's not a toggle or click power, so a countdown doesn't make much sense given this. And as you pointed out, the NoPhase status is applied because at the time of the change, other powers could be used after or separately from Hibernate, like Phase Shift, to artificially extend the duration of a player being unaffected to infinity.

 

Bottom line, it's an auto power that doesn't have a recharge timer because auto powers don't have recharge.

Edited May 27 by Glacier Peak
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[Yomo Kimyata]

On 5/26/2024 at 12:09 AM, AbathurPendris said:

The Tanker power Hibernate has a recharge time of 120 seconds and a duration of up to 30 seconds.  It is affected by recharge reduction enhancements as well as set bonuses.

 

I don't use Hibernate on a tanker, but are you sure that it is unaffected by recharge?  I see that it takes recharge enhancements and I'm rather sure that Hibernate on other ATs can both be shortened and can take both healing and endurance mod sets.

On 5/26/2024 at 12:09 AM, AbathurPendris said:

With the advent of NoPhase, an Ice Armor Tanker went from being able to activate Hibernate as much as once every 24 seconds (at max recharge reduction) to once every 120 to 150 seconds.

 

This essentially says that you could keep up constant untouchable status.  I can understand why the devs would choose to remove that, since it seems like it could be exploited.  As it is, I cannot stand that Crey Juggernauts can taunt you through their Untouchable Personal Forcefield!

[FupDup]

2 minutes ago, Yomo Kimyata said:

 

I don't use Hibernate on a tanker, but are you sure that it is unaffected by recharge?  I see that it takes recharge enhancements and I'm rather sure that Hibernate on other ATs can both be shortened and can take both healing and endurance mod sets.

I haven't done it on a Tanker, but I do have an Ice Armor Brute and it most definitely does accept recharge enhancement. However, due to nophase, slotting recharge doesn't help you any because nophase lasts 120s and the base recharge is also 120s. 

 

I can understand wanting to prevent back-to-back endless Hibernation, but negating the value of recharge enhancement takes it a tad too far IMO. 

[Yomo Kimyata]

5 minutes ago, FupDup said:

However, due to nophase, slotting recharge doesn't help you any because nophase lasts 120s and the base recharge is also 120s. 

 

Aha.  I think Hibernate is on a 240 second timer for other ATs, so it is very feasible to cut recharge on the power Hibernate all the way down to the recharge on the power Nophase.

[AbathurPendris]

25 minutes ago, Yomo Kimyata said:

 

I don't use Hibernate on a tanker, but are you sure that it is unaffected by recharge?  I see that it takes recharge enhancements and I'm rather sure that Hibernate on other ATs can both be shortened and can take both healing and endurance mod sets.

 

This essentially says that you could keep up constant untouchable status.  I can understand why the devs would choose to remove that, since it seems like it could be exploited.  As it is, I cannot stand that Crey Juggernauts can taunt you through their Untouchable Personal Forcefield!

I think you may have misread me.  I said that Hibernate IS affected by recharge reduction enhancements and global recharge reduction set bonuses.  I'm saying that for a Tanker whose base recharge is the same length as the duration of NoPhase, there is absolutely nothing gained from lowering its cooldown.

 

I will note though that I may have been wrong on the times in my original post and the first 30 seconds of NoPhase may not apply, instead the latter 90 seconds may be the portion that blocks it from activating again which in turn means that a portion of recharge reduction could actually be beneficial.

 

 

With a duration of 30 seconds (Assuming a full duration, though that is hardly ever the case) and a MAX recharge reduction to 24 seconds that means a ~65% up time.  I have a very hard time understanding the argument of Hibernate's up time because it literally stops you from doing anything else.  You cannot activate other powers like the Crey Juggernaut.  You cannot move like Phase Shift.  You're using Rest in safety, that's it.  If it means the revocation of NoPhase I will advocate for a Hibernate adjustment, but it baffles me.

[Shin Magmus]

     Hibernate has the downside that it drops your DPS to 0 while using it: a significant tradeoff that is extremely relevant.  If everyone could, and did, "spam Hibernate": then regular PvE fights would just take longer because nobody would be attacking.  This is already enough of a downside that some people don't take the power, and many more see it only as a panic button.  The theoretically sound strategy of using Hiberbate briefly, yet often, to "i-frame" certain dangerous enemy attacks is a much more interesting use case of Hibernate, but it's currently impossible because you can't use the power more than once every 120s due to NoPhase.

 

     Count me among the supporters that Hibernate should have 0 restrictions on how often you can use it in PvE.  There can be some PvP-only NoPhase if it matters that much to them.  A defensive "stance" that eliminates 100% of your offense is inherently completely balanced, and it's less desirable than finding a way to survive while still attacking.  One of the best things about Ice Armor on Scrappers/Stalkers is that it gets a good T9 instead of depressing Hibernate.. 

[Shin Magmus]

23 hours ago, Yomo Kimyata said:

 

I don't use Hibernate on a tanker, but are you sure that it is unaffected by recharge?  I see that it takes recharge enhancements and I'm rather sure that Hibernate on other ATs can both be shortened and can take both healing and endurance mod sets.

 

This essentially says that you could keep up constant untouchable status.  I can understand why the devs would choose to remove that, since it seems like it could be exploited.  As it is, I cannot stand that Crey Juggernauts can taunt you through their Untouchable Personal Forcefield!

     Recharge enhancements in Hibernate are a lie and a trap because of how NoPhase works currently.  Even Global Recharge (a great stat that people chase in their builds and get from buffs) doesn't actually allow you to use Hibernate more often; you're forced to wait out the NoPhase timer even though your power is recharged.  Remember, there are very few situations in this game where a self-targetting-power is visibly Recharged, but when you click it nothing happens because of some other convoluted reason.  Phase Shift is a toggle that you can use and still move around, giving it special utility in speedruns and Advanced Mode content.  By contrast, Hibernate is a power that prevents you from moving or doing anything at all until you turn it off.  They're really not the same thing, and NoPhase shouldn't be punishing Ice Tankers in PvE just because Phase-chasing is so common in PvP.

Edited May 28 by Shin Magmus

[Frozen Burn]

As an Ice Tanker player since 2004 - I can say that I've rarely used Hibernate.  I probably used it bit more in the early days, before the defense buffs and Ice Armor set buffs - but now, I rarely, if ever, use it.  If you FREQUENTLY as an Ice tanker need to Hibernate again right after using it... then you've got bigger issues with your Tank and build.  I can see once in a blue moon you might come across something might require a double Hibernate - lucky <5% rolls, and some cascading defense while out of inspires.... But still no one in PVE should be able to just click Hibernate and then click it again immediately afterwards.

 

That said... Yes, there should be a timer on the power so that you know you can't click it again inside that 120s window.  Whether you click it and stay in for the full 30s or not.  As soon as you click the power, the 120s timer countdown starts.  It can have a hard cooldown that is unaffected by any recharge (global or enh'd) just like Strength of Will in the Willpower set.

[Uun]

On 5/27/2024 at 11:39 AM, Yomo Kimyata said:

Aha.  I think Hibernate is on a 240 second timer for other ATs, so it is very feasible to cut recharge on the power Hibernate all the way down to the recharge on the power Nophase.

I've got Hibernate on several dominators, controllers and blasters. Global recharge alone (excluding Hasten) plus a heal/recharge IO in the base slot will generally take recharge under 120s. With Hasten, you're well inside of 90s. 

[Yomo Kimyata]

I see that the error I made was assuming you were talking about the powers Hibernate and NoPhase, not specifically about how it related to your specific Ice Armor tank.  For my purposes (i.e., not a tank or brute) the power Hibernate has an effective lockout of 120 seconds, but I and other non-tank non-brute players will be able to take advantage of recharge and set bonuses.

 

RE: what I seem to see as the complaint, how often do you think that a full Phase power should be active?  Clearly 25% of the time is too low based on what you are saying, but why does your playstyle require more?  Is it possible that the reasons you want to be in phase up to constantly (at 400% recharge you should be able to perma hibernate, not easily but doable) is similar to something the devs recognize as exploits and that is why they put the effective lockdown in place? 

[Shin Magmus]

3 hours ago, Yomo Kimyata said:

RE: what I seem to see as the complaint, how often do you think that a full Phase power should be active?  Clearly 25% of the time is too low based on what you are saying, but why does your playstyle require more?  Is it possible that the reasons you want to be in phase up to constantly (at 400% recharge you should be able to perma hibernate, not easily but doable) is similar to something the devs recognize as exploits and that is why they put the effective lockdown in place? 

     Even if you could run Hibernate 100% of the time it wouldn't be overpowered, because it makes you unable to move and it drops your DPS to 0.  I'm not sure if you didn't read my comment with these points but... yeah.  Phase Shift is a toggle that lets you move around and exploit the game, while Hibernate is a toggle that explicitly prevents movement.  Hibernate is really, really, really not that strong.  If a player wants to be unshackled and allowed to use the power more often... even just for like 2 second windows to swag out and i-frame a specific incoming attack... then they should just be allowed to?

 

     Using Hibernate at all equates to doing less DPS than someone who doesn't Hibernate: so I fail to see the issue.  You could remove NoPhase entirely and people would still skip it on PvE Ice Tankers, for the reasons I already laid out.

[Yomo Kimyata]

I hear what you are saying but I guess I am not understanding why.  You talk about how terrible this power is, and then you want to have it up more often?  Sounds like you would be glad it takes so long!!!

 

In my experience, when I use hibernate I keep getting attacked by enemies, even though I am untouchable.  Perhaps the devs instituted this lockout because they wanted to limit the amount of aggro a character can maintain while untouchable.  Like those $%^$% Crey Juggernauts.

[UltraAlt]

On 5/26/2024 at 12:09 AM, AbathurPendris said:

This was a strait up nerf to the set that went unacknowledged at the time.  Did Ice Armor need to be nerfed?  Was Hibernate too strong of an ability?  I will debate until the cows come home that it was not called for, however the bigger issue in my view was the sudden lack of indication for if Hibernate could be used.  NoPhase lasts for 120 seconds and has NO visual indicator showing when it will wear off.

 

Unfortunately, Ice Armor isn't the only way to access Hibernate. https://homecoming.wiki/wiki/Hibernate

I am assuming you already know that, but adding it to be clear for others.

 

I will admit, that I was one of those ... back in the day ... before the Sunset ... I had a ninja character that could stay https://homecoming.wiki/wiki/Concealment#Phase_Shift ed for a very long time. Add invisibility, and you could stealth directly through most mobs.

 

 

 

... err, wait ... wrong picture ...

 

I do understand that you are talking just about Hibernate.

 

But here is the thing, the NoPhase was put onto all powers that allow you to "phase" yourself.

I'm assuming it may have been added to all enemies that could "phase" themselves as well.

 

It was probably easier to do it as a blanket pass due to the how the programing of "phasing" was built into the game. (A DEV would really have to be the one to comment to make this clear).

If that is true, then Hibernate isn't going to change in regard to the NoPhase limitation put on "phasing".

 

So I wouldn't get too excited about it getting changed back.

Just be glad that some of the enemies that can "phase" can't re-"phase" as soon as the power recharges and they have enough end to run it again.

 

@Yomo Kimyata has a good point as well in regard to using it as a safe way to taunt foes, but I will add that the same thing can be done if at tank taunts a mob, a controler immobiles a mob, a tank runs around a nearby corner ... and pops out of hiding just long enough to re-taunt as their taunt recharges.

 

 

 

Edited May 29 by UltraAlt

[Frozen Burn]

3 hours ago, Shin Magmus said:

     Even if you could run Hibernate 100% of the time it wouldn't be overpowered, because it makes you unable to move and it drops your DPS to 0.  I'm not sure if you didn't read my comment with these points but... yeah.  Phase Shift is a toggle that lets you move around and exploit the game, while Hibernate is a toggle that explicitly prevents movement.  Hibernate is really, really, really not that strong.  If a player wants to be unshackled and allowed to use the power more often... even just for like 2 second windows to swag out and i-frame a specific incoming attack... then they should just be allowed to?

 

     Using Hibernate at all equates to doing less DPS than someone who doesn't Hibernate: so I fail to see the issue.  You could remove NoPhase entirely and people would still skip it on PvE Ice Tankers, for the reasons I already laid out.

 

The exploit is that someone in Hibernate constantly, would still receive rewards for their team's defeats while they themselves are not at risk.  Enter a mish and just sit in Hibernate while you reap all the rewards and your team does all the work.  ...No.  Just, no.  

 

Removing the NoPhase is fine, but then the power needs to be locked with the 120s cooldown where no recharge affects it.  

[Eiko-chan]

1 hour ago, Frozen Burn said:

 

The exploit is that someone in Hibernate constantly, would still receive rewards for their team's defeats while they themselves are not at risk.  Enter a mish and just sit in Hibernate while you reap all the rewards and your team does all the work.  ...No.  Just, no.  

How is this different from door-sitting, that still gives you full rewards for the team's defeats while being at no risk? 

[Rudra]

I have to agree with @Eiko-chan. Popping Hibernate and just staying in it while the rest of the team clears the mission is no different than just camping at the door while the rest of the team clears the mission. Sure, you're still subject to the ambushes since they will scatter to chase down all the team members if they aren't all together, but I don't really see a fundamental difference. Full disclosure though? I'm more supportive of the OP because I really just want Phase Shift to go back to the way it used to be, where it was just a toggle with a heavy END cost rather than a toggle with a heavy END cost that times out after 30 seconds with 2 minutes of NoPhase tacked on. The nerf made it fairly pointless to make ghost characters, shadow characters, or other normally incorporeal characters to correct something that still happens anyway if the intent was to stop players from avoiding the combat and leaving the rest of the team to earn them rewards. (I respec'ed my Dark/Dark Scrapper back on Live out of Phase Shift after the change because my shadow demon character could now only be a shadow for 30 seconds at a time. And my character was in the thick of the fight whenever I was on a team and the team was fighting anything. Being incorporeal was part of the character concept, but now I just pretend that something in the world is forcing the shadow demon to always be corporeal. I get the need to remove exploits, but this was done at the expense of character concepts and I still have to ask what exploit was actually removed.)

 

(Edit: And if it was to stop PCs from sneaking to end of missions safely to recall their team mates or do anything else? Well, that didn't stop either. It just became more difficult.)

Edited May 29 by Rudra

[Frozen Burn]

48 minutes ago, Eiko-chan said:

How is this different from door-sitting, that still gives you full rewards for the team's defeats while being at no risk? 

 

Door sitting, you can still get attacked, ambushed, a patrol wander by... there is still some degree of risk.  Being in Hibernate there is none.