High Level Roadmap / More Mid Level Content / New Player Stuff

[Troo]

Random thoughts & suggestions

 

Some suggestions:

1. A bit of cleanup and prioritization can be a good first step. (a lot has been worked on)

 

2. Second would be a high level public roadmap.

 

3. Identify areas of confusion for new folks.

•     Do we need TOs DOs SOs HOs IOs ATOs and a bunch of others if no one uses?
•     Are Origins relevant beyond character theme?
•     Incarnates sooo confusing.

 

4. Potentially address encouraging folks to play characters at least a little bit rather than simply skipping massive amounts of content. We don't need to force anything or declare a-right-way-to-play. (acknowledging some steps taken already)

•     Remember Respecification Trials?
•     How about earning a cape?
•     Crafting that first enhancement?
•     More active Super Groups <-- how to encourage this without penalizing solo play?

 

Implement some suggestions to curb the current meta which can drown out being new.

"What the heck does that mean?!!" "Don't tell me how to play!!" I get that, and that's not my intention.

 

Here is the thing:

I cringe when I see a newer player ask for help on a character or build and the immediate suggestions are multi-billion builds that practically require having tier 4 incarnates. This is often dismissive of the players current level, wealth and knowledge.

If some said this practice is bad for the game, I wouldn't argue with them and that is just my opinion.

 

Edited June 22 by Troo

[Rudra]

8 minutes ago, Troo said:

  More active Super Groups <-- how to encourage this?

Better question: how to encourage it without penalizing players that prefer to not be in SGs?

 

I personally don't see the point of encouraging more active super groups because those that want active super groups will run them that way. I believe we should let the SGs continue to run the way they prefer, active or passive as they see fit. However, as long as the encouragement isn't in the form of SG only available content/rewards, I probably won't have a problem with encouraging SGs to be more active. How do you encourage SGs to be active without exclusive content/rewards? I have no clue. (Edit: I mean they already have the benefit of shared resources, so what more can be done without it being some form of penalty for those that prefer a more passive approach or to not be in a SG?)

Edited June 22 by Rudra

[Troo]

sure

added "without penalizing solo play"

 

of course it would be great if any encouragement did not come with a penalty elsewhere.

[PeregrineFalcon]

2 hours ago, Troo said:

1. A bit of cleanup and prioritization can be a good first step. (a lot has been worked on)

It's already been suggested that story content be changed so that players don't outlevel the contacts and that story missions exempt characters down to the highest level for the mission upon entering the instance. This would instantly make more content available to players.

 

Oruboros arcs already do this, so the tech is already in game, and other CoH server already does this so we know it can be done.

 

2 hours ago, Troo said:

2. Second would be a high level public roadmap.

A developer said years ago that they would release a roadmap. Since then there's be no such roadmap and every time we ask for it we get viciously attacked by the DDL.

 

2 hours ago, Troo said:

3. Identify areas of confusion for new folks.

•     Do we need TOs DOs SOs HOs IOs ATOs and a bunch of others if no one uses?
•     Are Origins relevant beyond character theme?
•     Incarnates sooo confusing.

It's been suggested many times that TOs should be changed to be level-less SOs that only work if the character is below level 22. This would fix the both problems "how do new players afford SOs" and "TOs are worthless" with one stone. I have no idea what they should do with DOs. The rest should all stay in game as people do use them.

 

3 hours ago, Troo said:

4. Potentially address encouraging folks to play characters at least a little bit rather than simply skipping massive amounts of content. We don't need to force anything or declare a-right-way-to-play. (acknowledging some steps taken already)

•     Remember Respecification Trials?
•     How about earning a cape?
•     Crafting that first enhancement?
•     More active Super Groups <-- how to encourage this without penalizing solo play?

Add all of those lost missions (Respec Trials, cape missions) to a contact who talks to the character at the appropriate level.

 

Storage bins are the incentive to be in an SG without penalizing solo play.

[Ruin Mage]

14 minutes ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

Since then there's be no such roadmap and every time we ask for it we get viciously attacked by the DDL.

DDL Lieutenant Ruin Mage reporting for duty!

The likely answer is that the oncoming new developers and the years that have come since then might have perma-stalled the idea of a roadmap. Or they're trying to get certain things set up first BEFORE a roadmap is done. Or I'm a quack and entirely wrong.

[Greycat]

4 hours ago, Troo said:

2. Second would be a high level public roadmap.

 

So, live we had a sort of roadmap. And it got derailed constantly.  I mean, Blood of the Black Stream was mentioned *way* back before COV, when a player won a contest to have their character turned into a trading card, COV came out and we got mention of Gadzul Oil and that eye of horus oil slick, then... nothing. States mentioned a *bunch* of EATs... which we never got.  The Universities were originally going to be part of some *other* "improve your character" system that ... suddenly gave us buildings with no purpose, which were then turned into the Invention system.

 

I'd think any roadmap - especially with our volunteer crew - is going to be "We'd like to do this," and/or just ... vague at best. More "vision" than "map."

 

4 hours ago, Troo said:

 

3. Identify areas of confusion for new folks.

•     Do we need TOs DOs SOs HOs IOs ATOs and a bunch of others if no one uses?
•     Are Origins relevant beyond character theme?
•     Incarnates sooo confusing

 

I'm ... rather confused by the first one. TOs don't drop - you have to go out of your way to find them, which leaves them available for those who *want* to use them without them mucking up the rest. DOs, SOs, people use. And the rest... of course people use them.

 

Origins - part of me, as I've mentioned elsewhere, is still annoyed at Epic ATs being uncoupled from their origin. That said, the live team had started making steps to bring origin into the spotlight, at least through dialog - see the "origin of power" arc, which I tend to think of as a test run for it, giving different dialog, or the Trapdoor mission where the dohickey changes depending on your origin. I don't know what hooks are in the game to be used right now, but I look at the nascent nods to origin that were being put in, and I look over at STO where you'll have different options to complete a mission objective depending on  your 'class' and can't help but wonder if that's where they were trying to go.

 

Even if they can't do "alternate win conditions" (Next mission you don't get an ambush if your Tech origin notices and does XYZ to the computer, or your Magic origin notes that if they change the arrangement on that altar something will/won't happen,) I still think that having the FBSA departments start off every origin on 1-50 arcs focusing on an enemy group or groups related to it would be nice to do. Lots of work, yes. But it would add to replayability.

 

Incarnates are a whole thing unto themselves. *shrug*

 

The SG thing - do we need to "encourage" active SGs?  Why? The last thing we had to encourage SG activity was prestige, and that was just seen as a grind (and a point of abuse in some cases.) I know I hated it, the cost on my characters, and the way building bases was limited by it. And what would count as "active?" I've got characters who are on almost nightly, or weekly... for RP, generally, with others in that group. That's an "active" group, to me, but you can't really put a metric to it. Is a group where someone happens to be farming constantly "active?" How about the group that meets once a week or once a month? 

 

Trying to define "active" and how to encourage "activity" just .... opens many cans of worms. I'd say leave SGs where they are right now. They can be private, social, always-hosting-something, transit hubs... whatever, and to me they're doing just fine without artificial stimulation.

[Rudra]

30 minutes ago, Greycat said:

That said, the live team had started making steps to bring origin into the spotlight, at least through dialog - see the "origin of power" arc, which I tend to think of as a test run for it, giving different dialog, or the Trapdoor mission where the dohickey changes depending on your origin.

Or the Praetorian mission where the means you use to disable the primary bomb changes depending on your origin? Despite the fact I think some of those options are just plain silly, I do like that aspect of the mission. You're magic origin? You can disable the bomb the normal way or have the power (which is an elemental to you) just go home. You're tech origin? You know what wire to cut to render the bomb harmless, or you can disable it the normal way. I would like to see more content like that, and it would be easier to implement than something more expansive than whether or not you trigger an ambush for not being the correct origin to avoid it or say... having a follow up mission that is dependent on your origin and what you did in the 1st mission... not that I've given such a thing any thought... really....

 

Edited June 23 by Rudra
Edited to add forgotten "Despite" and de-capitalize the t in "the"..

[biostem]

5 hours ago, Troo said:

a high level public roadmap

My take is that anytime a group of developers puts any kind of "roadmap" out there, even if qualified with "nothing in this is guaranteed", people will expect said roadmap be dutifully and rigidly adhered to.  I'd rather see smaller, much more attainable milestones set, then worked toward until completion - nothing grand or overarching, (at least not that's disclosed or sets some false expectations).

[Rudra]

2 minutes ago, biostem said:

My take is that anytime a group of developers puts any kind of "roadmap" out there, even if qualified with "nothing in this is guaranteed", people will expect said roadmap be dutifully and rigidly adhered to.  I'd rather see smaller, much more attainable milestones set, then worked toward until completion - nothing grand or overarching, (at least not that's disclosed or sets some false expectations).

Ooh! Ooh! I think I have a valid road map that can be strictly adhered to!

 

Current point: Game is active and playable on public servers.

Future point: Game is active and playable on public servers.

 

Road map done!

 

*ducks and hides from impending stoning*

 

😁😄

[Triumphant]

13 hours ago, Rudra said:

Ooh! Ooh! I think I have a valid road map that can be strictly adhered to!

 

Current point: Game is active and playable on public servers.

Future point: Game is active and playable on public servers.

 

Road map done!

 

*ducks and hides from impending stoning*

 

😁😄

 

I mean, honestly, all joking aside, I would be satisfied with this.  There are things I would "like" to see in the game, certain changes implemented that I think would make for a more enjoyable play experience.  But I can and will continue to enjoy the game in its present from for years (or however long it continues to exist) to come.

[Mr. Apocalypse]

who needs a roadmap,  This isn't a paid game anymore, there is no need for a roadmap. Get in the backseat and enjoy the  journey, dont try to be a backseat driver.  Let the devs drive this game where ever they want.  If you don't like the destination, no one forces you to stay, and you can chalk it up as a free ride.

Edited June 23 by Mr. Apocalypse

[arcane]

18 hours ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

A developer said years ago that they would release a roadmap. Since then there's be no such roadmap and every time we ask for it we get viciously attacked by the DDL.

Can you give an example of what a desired “roadmap” would look like? Use the last page as an example.

 

In my experience, the only people that have been attacked on this topic are those that are obviously asking for explanations in bad faith (aka, demanding explanations so you have another narrative to viciously attack when the page doesn’t give you everything you want, not so you can come to terms with devs’ approach). 
 

For example, there were many demands that the devs provide rationale for Arsenal Control not having Web Envelope. These were clearly in bad faith because the explanations didn’t put anything to rest; the people making the demands just wanted to stir up hell in the feedback threads and their demands for explanations were just demands for argumentative ammo.

Edited June 23 by arcane

[Troo]

49 minutes ago, Mr. Apocalypse said:

who needs a roadmap

 

well.. 'need' and 'like' are two different things. as are details yet to be determined compared to a high level peek at what might be coming down the pike.

 

53 minutes ago, Mr. Apocalypse said:

This isn't a paid game anymore

 

duh

 

53 minutes ago, Mr. Apocalypse said:

there is no need for a roadmap.

 

if changes are happening to something folks are putting time into or care about, there can be a justification.

 

55 minutes ago, Mr. Apocalypse said:

Get in the backseat and enjoy the  journey, dont try to be a backseat driver.

 

the irony of 'don't tell me how to play' slathered with 'let me tell you how to post'... I'm just having some fun with you on this one. Mr. A is not a primary offender.

 

57 minutes ago, Mr. Apocalypse said:

Let the devs drive this game where ever they want.

 

'The Devs' are fully capable of speaking for themselves. Just as they are capable of taking suggestions and not taking action them.

 

We all get to have an opinion. I support ideas and suggestions that I might strongly disagree with at least being able to be put forward.

[Ghost]

Problem with a roadmap is, people will tend to take it as a bible.

Ive posted something similar in a thread requesting the same thing last year…..

 

Jan 1, 2024 Devs post roadmap outlining future plans

Jan 1, 2024 “not fair!  What about this, this and that?”

Jan 3, 2024 “what is taking so long? You promised us!”

Feb 1, 2024 Devs announce a change due to coding issues

Feb 1, 2024 “You promised us!  You’re all a bunch of liars!”

Feb 2, 2024 “why even post a roadmap if you’re gonna change it you big bunch of liars”

 

On and on it will go.

 

What person in their right mind would open themselves up to this kind of abuse?

 

 

 

 

Edited June 23 by Ghost

[PeregrineFalcon]

57 minutes ago, arcane said:

Can you give an example of what a desired “roadmap” would look like? Use the last page as an example.

No. I'm sure that you and/or the devs can figure it out. I'm not here to do your work for you.

 

Nor do I subscribe to your "but if they posted that people would complain" BS. The mods seemed to have no problems swinging their ban-hammers in response to legitimate complaints in threads specifically asking for our feedback, so they can swing those same ban-hammers at trolls and people who attack the devs in bad faith.

 

28 minutes ago, Ghost said:

What person in their right mind would open themselves up to this kind of abuse?

Why does the Council of 13 even have a forum with moderators if they're too scared to post anything?

.

Edited June 23 by PeregrineFalcon
Added another quote

[arcane]

2 minutes ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

No. I'm sure that you and/or the devs can figure it out. I'm not here to do your work for you.

No, I genuinely can’t figure out what will make some happy beyond the non-starter of just getting everything they want and nothing they don’t want.

[Ghost]

6 minutes ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

No. I'm sure that you and/or the devs can figure it out. I'm not here to do your work for you.

 

Nor do I subscribe to your "but if they posted that people would complain" BS. The mods seemed to have no problems swinging their ban-hammers in response to legitimate complaints in threads specifically asking for our feedback, so they can swing those same ban-hammers at trolls and people who attack the devs in bad faith.

 

Why does the Council of 13 even have a forum with moderators is they're too scared to post anything?

.

Because it would be just plain stupid.

Anyone with half a brain knows how it will play out, so why get it started?

 

[PeregrineFalcon]

2 minutes ago, arcane said:

No, I genuinely can’t figure out what will make some happy beyond the non-starter of just getting everything they want and nothing they don’t want.

It was a developer who, years ago, said they were going to publish a roadmap. I'm sure they knew what they had in mind.

 

It doesn't really matter if you understand the term or not. You frequently "misunderstand" common words in your defense of the developers. Remember when I had to explain to you what the word broken meant?

[Ghost]

Just now, PeregrineFalcon said:

It was a developer who, years ago, said they were going to publish a roadmap. I'm sure they knew what they had in mind.

They changed their mind - and here you are still holding it against them after all these years….

[arcane]

5 minutes ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

It was a developer who, years ago, said they were going to publish a roadmap. I'm sure they knew what they had in mind.

 

It doesn't really matter if you understand the term or not. You frequently "misunderstand" common words in your defense of the developers. Remember when I had to explain to you what the word broken meant?

No, I don’t remember. I smoke weed between our talks. Calm thine tits.

[PeregrineFalcon]

Just now, Ghost said:

They changed their mind - and here you are still holding it against them after all these years….

I'm not holding anything against anyone. The OP asked a question and I responded to it. Then arcane asked a question and I responded to that. I'm not upset and I'm not holding anything against anyone. You're getting yourself all worked up over nothing, and you're imagining emotions in me that simply don't exist.

 

It's ok, you can calm down before you work yourself up into a frenzy. No one's gonna attack your precious Homecoming developers. Take a couple of deep breaths, it'll be alright.

 

1 minute ago, arcane said:

No, I don’t remember. I smoke weed between our talks. Calm thine tits.

I really don't understand why you and Ghost seem to think I'm upset. I'm not. I'm completely calm and just sipping my coffee and responding to your posts.

 

In any case, I would like to thank you and Ghost for so artfully making my point about the DDL attacking people. Anyway, I hope you two are able to calm down and enjoy this nice Sunday. Peace.

[Ghost]

1 minute ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

I'm not holding anything against anyone. The OP asked a question and I responded to it. Then arcane asked a question and I responded to that. I'm not upset and I'm not holding anything against anyone. You're getting yourself all worked up over nothing, and you're imagining emotions in me that simply don't exist.

 

It's ok, you can calm down before you work yourself up into a frenzy. No one's gonna attack your precious Homecoming developers. Take a couple of deep breaths, it'll be alright.

 

I really don't understand why you and Ghost seem to think I'm upset. I'm not. I'm completely calm and just sipping my coffee and responding to your posts.

 

In any case, I would like to thank you and Ghost for so artfully making my point about the DDL attacking people. Anyway, I hope you two are able to calm down and enjoy this nice Sunday. Peace.

 

Project much?

 

[Greycat]

... am I the only one parsing that as that smash hit wizard party game, Dance Dance Levitation?

 

... Yes?

[tidge]

Perhaps this is a personal defect, but I cannot imagine what a "roadmap" would look like that doesn't already sort of exist in the game now. For example, we have both hero and villain "roadmaps", plus whatever a player chooses to do with Gold/Incarnate/Ouroboros. We have "Zone arcs". The game launched with contacts that were more-or-less tied to "origin". The game has EATs that have their own arcs.

 

Why is "skipping content" considered to be such a problem?

 

On 6/22/2024 at 4:09 PM, Troo said:

Here is the thing:

I cringe when I see a newer player ask for help on a character or build and the immediate suggestions are multi-billion builds that practically require having tier 4 incarnates. This is often dismissive of the players current level, wealth and knowledge.

If some said this practice is bad for the game, I wouldn't argue with them and that is just my opinion.

 

I am reading that there is a recognition that this is a personal problem, and NOT a problem with the game.

 

Every time you cringe at a posted build, perhaps follow up with a helpful suggestion? I pretty much only post "Level 50 builds", but that is because it would be a huge waste of my time to post more than one build, and it would be a true PITA to post "intermediate" builds with incomplete slot assignments, not to mention power choices. For 90% of *my* builds, the level 50 build:

1. Accurately represents the powers taken at what level
2. Accurately represents the power pool choices (if applicable), also taken at what level
3. Accurately represents the types of Enhancements slotted, if the specific choices aren't available because of level restriction

I don't feel like my builds insult new players because they use ATOs... ATOs are only 100 merits each and until players can afford them, IOs will do. Same with Winters. The reference to "multi-billion" is IMO a tell that this sort of thinking is mired in the past. It is true that a player almost certainly needs (or has) a level 50 (no incarnates needed) to collect merits to buy ATOs.... but a character with no enhancement slotted can tag along with all sorts of content, including regular Hamidon raids, and few players are going to complain.

 

I don't feel the need to explain that for most of my high-level attacks, I almost never slot more that 3 pieces while leveling up... because I am making choices about other sets to look for set bonuses... and I don't feel obliged to explain all the nuances of my particular choices for which powers get slots at what levels.

 

I don't feel the need to offer a build that doesn't contain attuned enhancement pieces, in case there is some "new student" who isn't familiar with enhancements.

 

I do occasionally try to explain what *I* find fun (and tedious) about certain builds... but at some base level I don't expect players to have radically different ideas about what some ATs will do... for example, the Tanker forum is always going to have threads about the "most toughest", and other forums will always have threads about "most DPS".

[biostem]

On 6/22/2024 at 4:09 PM, Troo said:

I cringe when I see a newer player ask for help on a character or build and the immediate suggestions are multi-billion builds that practically require having tier 4 incarnates. This is often dismissive of the players current level, wealth and knowledge.

If some said this practice is bad for the game, I wouldn't argue with them and that is just my opinion.

That's why my advice is to go with level 25 generic IOs, then replacing those, (either in the same build or on one of your other builds), with various set or other such specialized IOs/HOs/SHOs/D-Syncs/Etc, as you go.  Nothing unobtainable and certainly not overly expensive...