Elegant solution to buff Regen.

[Triumphant]

7 hours ago, Apogee said:

One set has to be the worst in class and Regen has been it for far too long.  It is the only set that has it's own meme (afaik).  I am all for a buff to Regen even though it will increase the occurrence of calls to...

 

Nerf Regen

 

there, I said it.

LOL.  I get it, I really do.  And I'm sure the Devs are gun shy about messing with it, for just this reason.  But you could do incremental tweaks and evaluate them, bit by bit, on the test server.  That's the whole point of vetting power changes via the test server.  I imagine there are very difficult challenges associated with changing the power set into something decent, without making the set over-powered and breaking the game again, but you can't do it if you don't try.  

[srmalloy]

18 hours ago, biostem said:

add a bit of a "reaction time" variable to enemies, so that they can't all hit you with their attacks simultaneously

That's going to be difficult to work into the game engine. Back before the HC staff made the change to have simultaneous sound effects not stack linearly, there was an occasional problem I ran into running the "Cure Lost" mission; I'd go into Perez Park and look for big spawns of Lost, whacking the boss (if present) with the cure-stick first; when he changed back, all the other Lost would pull out weapons and shoot at him. Sometimes, the entire rest of the spawn would pull out shotguns and fire at once, and the stacked sound of eight or nine shotguns going off at once would be physically painful.

[Americas Angel]

For a mitigation cycle, try:

MoG>Instant Healing>MoG>Melee Hybrid (Res)
 

Can also use Rune of Protection, Barrier, and Demonic. (Either layered on top of the above, or as part of a different mitigation cycle. I.e. if you want to keep MoG as an anti-spike tool.)

 

Recon and DP to counter spikes.

 

Should be able to solo +4/8 just fine. End drainers like Carnies are the only real threat. But you can mitigate them to some extent via base buff and Ageless. (Not ideal, I know. About the only thing I ever agree with in these regen suggestion threads is that the set needs more debuff resists.)

 

If you're having a hard time playing regen, post your build in the thread and I'm sure folks will be able to give pointers.

[biostem]

3 hours ago, Americas Angel said:

For a mitigation cycle, try:

MoG>Instant Healing>MoG>Melee Hybrid (Res)
 

Can also use Rune of Protection, Barrier, and Demonic. (Either layered on top of the above, or as part of a different mitigation cycle. I.e. if you want to keep MoG as an anti-spike tool.)

Here's the problem - you're basically admitting that the way to "mitigate" things while playing regen is to go outside of the powerset...

[ClawsandEffect]

3 hours ago, Americas Angel said:

For a mitigation cycle, try:

MoG>Instant Healing>MoG>Melee Hybrid (Res)
 

Can also use Rune of Protection, Barrier, and Demonic. (Either layered on top of the above, or as part of a different mitigation cycle. I.e. if you want to keep MoG as an anti-spike tool.)

 

Recon and DP to counter spikes.

 

Should be able to solo +4/8 just fine. End drainers like Carnies are the only real threat. But you can mitigate them to some extent via base buff and Ageless. (Not ideal, I know. About the only thing I ever agree with in these regen suggestion threads is that the set needs more debuff resists.)

 

If you're having a hard time playing regen, post your build in the thread and I'm sure folks will be able to give pointers.

 

I don't have a hard time playing Regen. I have hundreds of hours of experience playing it from live to now. My main was a Regen Scrapper. I've played a bunch of other sets too, though. That's how I know what Regen's weaknesses are. 

 

But I do have a hard time accepting the idea that you are required to go outside the set and use things you don't even get until well after you hit level 50 in order to keep up with the other sets. No other melee armor set that I can think of has to lean on that many powers outside of the set to keep up with other sets that don't have to do that.  

 

Barrier and Melee Hybrid. Cool. How do those powers help you at level 40? 

[arcane]

24 minutes ago, biostem said:

Here's the problem - you're basically admitting that the way to "mitigate" things while playing regen is to go outside of the powerset...

That’s the case with every armor set in the game.

[biostem]

9 minutes ago, arcane said:

That’s the case with every armor set in the game.

That maybe the case if you want to cap def/res, but practically every other armor set can stand on its own, without needing to dip into pools/incarnates/IO set bonuses just to make them functional...

[arcane]

Just now, biostem said:

That maybe the case if you want to cap def/res, but practically every other armor set can stand on its own, without needing to dip into pools/incarnates/IO set bonuses just to make them functional...

I can’t think of any armor set I’d want to play without Tough/Weave OR Barrier OR any of that other stuff. Maybe an all Granite tank wouldn’t be too different but who wants to play that.

[Azari]

What regen needs is more regen

[biostem]

3 minutes ago, arcane said:

I can’t think of any armor set I’d want to play without Tough/Weave OR Barrier OR any of that other stuff.

It's not about "want" - It's about baseline effectiveness.  I can't think of another armor set that *needs* to rely on a T9 or external powers to, for instance, survive alpha strikes...

[Haijinx]

1 hour ago, arcane said:

That’s the case with every armor set in the game.

Most just need The Fighting Pool and IO set bonuses 

[arcane]

17 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

Most just need The Fighting Pool and IO set bonuses 

And that’s going outside your armor powerset.

[Rudra]

2 hours ago, biostem said:

It's not about "want" - It's about baseline effectiveness.  I can't think of another armor set that *needs* to rely on a T9 or external powers to, for instance, survive alpha strikes...

Depends on the content. As someone else stated, Regeneration is perfectly fine for +0 content.

[biostem]

1 minute ago, Rudra said:

Depends on the content. As someone else stated, Regeneration is perfectly fine for +0 content.

No doubt, but look at what's being presented - all things being equal, run a regen and various other armor sets through the same content, and compare how they perform.  +0/x1 may perform similarly, so then slowly start ramping things up.  I'm not saying every set needs to be able to run +4/x8 in complete isolation, but there definitely is a performance gap between regen and other armor sets...

[Rudra]

5 minutes ago, biostem said:

No doubt, but look at what's being presented - all things being equal, run a regen and various other armor sets through the same content, and compare how they perform.  +0/x1 may perform similarly, so then slowly start ramping things up.  I'm not saying every set needs to be able to run +4/x8 in complete isolation, but there definitely is a performance gap between regen and other armor sets...

Oh, I'm not arguing about there being a gap. However, I do run around with a Broadsword/Regeneration Scrapper as my partner twice a week, and she usually doesn't have any problems even at +4 unless the spawn sizes get too big. So I get the desire to buff regen' and I am most definitely not arguing against buffing regen', I just think some of the arguments in favor of the buffs are flawed. Especially the argument about armor sets and branching out of their set powers to shore them up. Every armor set needs to branch out to other sets, be it pool powers or incarnate powers or IO set bonuses, to cover for their weaknesses. Some need to do it more than average and some need to do it less than average, but needing to reach into other sets to bolster your character is not a solid argument for buffing a set. At least not to me.

 

Edited July 13 by Rudra
Edited to add missing "I".

[biostem]

12 minutes ago, Rudra said:

I do run around with a Broadsword/Regeneration Scrapper as my partner

The defense buff from parry is nothing to sneeze at.

 

13 minutes ago, Rudra said:

I just think some of the arguments in favor of the buffs are flawed. Especially the argument about armor sets and branching out of their set powers to shore them up. Every armor set needs to branch out to other sets, be it pool powers or incarnate powers or IO set bonuses, to cover for their weaknesses

The "need" varies wildly, though, from set to set, and is, IMHO, more of a "like to have" than an absolute necessity...

[BrandX]

2 hours ago, arcane said:

That’s the case with every armor set in the game.

 

I feel the difference is that Regen feels like it needs to go MORE outside the box.

[Rudra]

5 minutes ago, biostem said:

20 minutes ago, Rudra said:

I just think some of the arguments in favor of the buffs are flawed. Especially the argument about armor sets and branching out of their set powers to shore them up. Every armor set needs to branch out to other sets, be it pool powers or incarnate powers or IO set bonuses, to cover for their weaknesses

The "need" varies wildly, though, from set to set, and is, IMHO, more of a "like to have" than an absolute necessity...

 

20 minutes ago, Rudra said:

Some need to do it more than average and some need to do it less than average,

 

[Americas Angel]

6 hours ago, ClawsandEffect said:

 

I don't have a hard time playing Regen. I have hundreds of hours of experience playing it from live to now. My main was a Regen Scrapper. I've played a bunch of other sets too, though. That's how I know what Regen's weaknesses are. 

 

But I do have a hard time accepting the idea that you are required to go outside the set and use things you don't even get until well after you hit level 50 in order to keep up with the other sets. No other melee armor set that I can think of has to lean on that many powers outside of the set to keep up with other sets that don't have to do that.  

 

Barrier and Melee Hybrid. Cool. How do those powers help you at level 40? 

 

Feel free to post a leveling build with SOs. Happy to give pointers on how to tweak/play that, too. 

[Troo]

18 hours ago, ClawsandEffect said:

Thoughts? 

18 hours ago, ClawsandEffect said:

Regen's biggest problem is and always has been dealing with large amounts of burst damage coming in all at once.

17 hours ago, ClawsandEffect said:

Relying on healing and nothing else to keep you alive means you're going to get 2-shotted by things on a regular basis. 

 

Weird, my experience is a bit different.

Burst damage has not been the biggest problem. Instant Healing and Dull Pain together.. is fairly impressive. (almost like a T9)

Getting slowed to where I can't move AND powers aren't recharging fast enough... that's a problem.

(a problem that enemy recognition and situational awareness significantly helps with)

 

Getting 2-shotted on a broot or stalker for me would be a very very very rare occurrence (lvl 1-50+). Maybe scrappers are somehow less capable.. no that can't be right.

 

Regeneration is likely a knifes edge to balance.

To give any significant boosts to any set requires tradeoffs, I'd rather enjoy regeneration as is.

Absolutely, I'd support a couple well documented small tweaks which would not require tradeoffs.

I suspect these could provide a little bit more forgiveness and help folks pilot a regen while they learn the ropes. But they are just small tweaks which may not help folks who don't want to lean into what regen does well.

 

If I couldn't +4/8 at all, I might sing a different tune. However, there are a number of folks who have taken Regeneration characters through some of the hardest content the game has to offer. While I won't ever claim it to be the best, as-is, it can be very successful. It is also fun and different rather than same same.

 

10 hours ago, biostem said:

I can't think of another armor set that *needs* to rely on a T9 or external powers to, for instance, survive alpha strikes...

 

Don't *need* to rely on MoG or Incarnates to survive normal alpha strikes... you know this.

 

If we are talking the hardest content, I believe ALL of the armors have holes to something without dipping into external powers, right? I'm just saying..

 

[Psi-bolt]

Quoting myself from my own suggestion thread (with some tweaks because of feedback):

 

On 10/7/2023 at 1:33 PM, Psi-bolt said:

1. Make the Regeneration buff of Integration full enhanceable;
2. Change Instant Healing to a toggle with the following effects:

 

For Tankers, Brutes and Scrappers

 

200% Regeneration (unenhanceable)

10%/7.5% Resistance to all damage (fully enhanceable) with one enemy in range

2%/1.5% resistance to all damage (unenhanceable) for each additional enemy in range (up to 9 or 18%/13.5%)

400% taunt (for Tankers, Brutes [Brutes lose the taunt in Integration]); 300% Taunt for Scrappers

 

For Stalkers

 

200% Regeneration (unenhanceable)

11.25% resistance to all damage (fully enhanceable)

 

For Sentinels

 

Absorb Shield (at current values)

10.5% resistance to all damage (fully enhanceable)

 

I would also change the order of the powers to move Instant Healing to Tier 4 and Dull Pain to Tier 7 (Sentinel Order wouldn't change).  

 

That's it, that's what I would do if I had the ability.  I think this would be enough to make Regeneration a decent Tanking set and good for the other ATs.  It doesn't even break Statesman's silly rule about not changing the essential function of a power since it stays a Regeneration ability, in part at least.  

Edited July 14 by Psi-bolt