How you decide how much to list for?

[Ukase]

I just wrote a full page and never even got to the topic directly: 

When you get a drop from the sometimes fickle RNG loot god, specifically a Obliteration: Chance for Smashing Damage - how much thought are you putting into how much you're charging for it? 

So many different ways to deal with this!

Craft and keep for later. Nothing wrong with that. 

But, for the sake of argument, let's say you want to make influence. The recipe has dropped; free, sort of. We could say we used time and resources to get it, so it wasn't free. But, in a fashion, since you were doing those things that allowed the drop anyway, and the drop wasn't your actual goal, it's basically free. 

The salvage to get it..that drops too. And while we may say they were basically free for you, we know there are players that will pay inf for them. 

So, we have a concept called opportunity cost. If I use the rare salvage to craft the recipe, the rare salvage is gone; that means I can't sell the rare salvage. 

So, instead of crafting, I can sell:
Recipe - 10k at the vendor (and no tax) 
common salvage x2 - 250x2 at the vendor, or potentially a little more on the AH, but requires patience and a cost of some auction house slots. 
Uncommon salvage - 1k at the vendor (no tax) OR list it at 2200 or so, and wait for those other pesky marketers to start driving up the price again like they seem to do every so often. Again, may require patience and some AH slots
Rare salvage - in general, I consider it a 500k item, but sometimes it's a little more or less. 

Crafting costs vary on the level of the recipe: this is where some folks will just list the recipe on the AH, and then repurchase it at level 30 for cheaper costs. (and different salvage) So, the wisdom of saving on the costs of crafting can sometimes be offset by not having the salvage in the right tier on hand. Much depends on how you organize your assets. Or maybe you just buy it again at level 41, to avoid that salvage issue. 




Using the oblit as the example, and these crafting costs are the exact same for all uncommons and rares - although the ingredients change. So, it makes inf to sell the level 50 recipe and re-purchase at a lower level. 

Or does it? There are so many variables. and while the marketing is the game within the game, it's not why so many people keep making alts! And over-thinking things can really suck the fun out of a game, right? 

But, if by listing these recipes on the AH, and grabbing 100K or even 1M instead of vendoring them for less - are we arming our competition? I would say yes. This is why I craft everything that's uncommon or rare. Except 1. 

Regenerative Tissue: Regeneration
Ever look at this recipe? THREE rares if you craft it below level 25! (and isn't that recipe format change a little crazy?!)

 

In this case, it would make sense to craft it at a higher level of 25, as there would be less cost involved. But is it even worth it? 
So many folks, myself included just take cheap uncommon level 10 recipes, craft them by the hundreds and convert them into enhancements like these to get around those costs! 


So, then - how do YOU decide what an enhancement is really worth? It's really a matter of subjective opinion, isn't it? I'm sure there's some kind of minimum value, but from what we read folks say, the minimum value is 1 inf. They truly list items that have subjective values of more than 1M for 1 inf. I'm sure many of those 1 inf sales get sucked up by the noob traps left by most of us. Still, am I supposed to believe these folks are selling all their drops for 1 inf, and relying on inf earned from defeats to finance their roster of characters? I guess so. It's not that hard to do. 





 

[Yomo Kimyata]

You covered a lot there, and much of it was a lot more subtle than most will give you credit for, you sly minx!  I may or may not come back to some of that later, but I've got guides in progress on similar things.

 

I think you are conflating what something is "worth" versus where you can buy or sell it (and even those are separate from your titular question of where to list it!).  This may sound like semantics, but these semantics are what got me my first trillion inf.

 

Let's look at your example of the Obliteration proc, and let's assume that I own the recipe and all the relevant salvage (2x common, 1x uncommon. 1x rare) that all came as drops.  If it's a level 50, I can spend 490,500 inf to craft it and now I have a level 50 Oblit proc.  If I want it attuned then I can use a catalyst that let's assume I got as a drop as well.  If you are using it, great!  but let's look at alternatives.

 

Now, it looks like I can probably sell the recipe for 800,000 based on the /AH, possibly more but it looks like someone is buying there.  I can vendor the common and uncommon salvage for 1,500, and I can probably get 500,000 (definitely 400,000) for the rare salvage in the /AH.  So 1,300,000 less 10% = 1,170,000+1,500 = 1,171,500 inf if I sell the materials, and more if I sell the catalyst as well.

 

I feel pretty confident that I can buy an attuned Oblit proc on the /AH for 1mm or less within a few hours, so even if I had all the stuff lying around and even ignoring crafting costs, I probably wouldn't waste time or effort crafting it.  In fact, I probably would just vendor the recipe for 10k rather than even check to see what it is going for on the /AH.

[lemming]

4 hours ago, Ukase said:

Crafting costs vary on the level of the recipe: this is where some folks will just list the recipe on the AH, and then repurchase it at level 30 for cheaper costs.

I thought it was just enhancements that got consolidated, not recipes?

 

On selling stuff lately:

I've got enough influence, so making more isn't as important, but I don't buy much via the AH and tend to outfit my chars with what I've already gathered.   What I have found lately since I slowed way down on alts, is that I'm gathering up way too many recipes.   So, I started selling them off.   What I tend to do is check to see what the last sell prices are.   If the sales prices are above what I'd get from the vendor, I'll throw them on at 11 inf.  Most of the time, it's a profit.  Maybe not as much as if I crafted, converted them into something more valuable, but in terms of time, it's been working.

[twozerofoxtrot]

9 hours ago, Ukase said:

When you get a drop from the sometimes fickle RNG loot god, specifically a Obliteration: Chance for Smashing Damage - how much thought are you putting into how much you're charging for it? 

 

I would vendor something like this.

 

I would also vendor most of the salvage that dropped.

 

I only craft and sell certain PvP IOs. Usually for 6-8mil depending. 

 

Occasionally a LOTG or somesuch which would sell for over 5mil.

 

I make my living the honest way. Not hornswaggling innocent players by separating them from their hard earned currency. No sir, I'm an agricultural laborer, with little time for fancy tricks and long cons.

 

Just like Jack intended. 

[Yomo Kimyata]

8 hours ago, lemming said:

I thought it was just enhancements that got consolidated, not recipes?

 

Nope, both enhancements and recipes are fungible.  You can sell a level 50 and buy it at level 10.

[Ghost]

I list it for 10 (along with everything else)

 

[Maelwys]

I tend to list Purple and PvP recipes and Rare salvage on the AH (for 1 inf) and there are a few other recipes that qualify such as LoTGs and Uniques/Procs - everything else gets NPC vendored.

 

Very occasionally I'll bother to craft a recipe before listing it.

 

However whilst I'm definitely SELLING low, I also BUY low - when I'm purpling and +5ing out an endgame build, I'll hardly ever go with "buy it now!" prices unless that build is very nearly already at my goal.

 

As for financing? Sure, some of it comes in the form of raw inf via defeats... but with the sheer number of drops you get from farming, even selling stuff to the lowest bidder on the AH can generate a decent steady income stream. Occasionally I'll visit Luna to turn spare Incarnate salvage into in-demand inspirations and sell those for peanuts too.

 

Given the above it's probably obvious that I don't consider myself a "marketeer" on HC. I used to actually play the market on live for influence, before discovering AFK PVP insp farming and making more billions than I knew what to do with. These days on HC as long as my liquid assets can always fund at least two new fully-twinked-out level 50s I tend not to worry - and before each new toon gets its incarnates fully T4ed they'll almost always have re-earned any influence spent on them back again.

 

Edited August 31 by Maelwys

[Ukase]

I suppose I should be more transparent. 
I have always been behind the curve. An idea is developed by someone smarter than me, perhaps shares it, or tells a friend or two about it - and they share it. Sooner or later, things come out in the open, and usually, that's when I figure it out. And sometimes, I get it wrong. 

Afk farming, for example. I remember ...must be maybe 4 years ago, I was talking to @Bionic_Flea and I'd shared I had my heal on auto, not burn. I had the blazing aura. I was in no rush, as it was afk. The mobs were still dead upon my return. But I have to laugh at my former self when I realized how most everyone else was doing it, with burn on auto instead. At that time, I was not loaded, but had enough for the next alt or two. It was probably investing everything into the winter packs that really made me a ton of inf. (which still bears fruit, as I've yet to open them all from the very first year, let alone the next year. Was there a 3rd year? I don't remember. 

I do think I happened upon a niche in an area left mostly untouched, or if it were, it was not heavily touched, or demand was high. The ATO to Superior proved to make me quite a bit. About 8-10M per sale. Granted, there were catalysts I had to spend, and I was only getting a couple per day from my farmer - and my alts needed them too. And, back then, they were going for 4-5M, not the paltry 900-1M we might see now. Add to that...the big money makers were in Brute ATOs for the obvious reasons. Interesting that now - it's more often than not, the tanker ATOs that seem in higher demand. No doubt due to the AoE changes for tanks. 

I do try and be helpful, and I would love it when people would complain about not being able to get the enhancements they wanted. Because I would stop my mission, exit and do my best to fill that void quickly - and send them that item as a thank you for letting me know where we marketers dropped the ball. 

I used farming as a source for 95% of all my marketing. I felt like paying for recipes was ridiculous, if I could get them for free. Now, given the fact I've realized I could have saved almost 400K in crafting costs in most cases, I'm not so sure that was the right path. It was certainly easy enough, though. And I never once have paid for salvage for the farmer's marketing efforts. 
I have an assist character who sits outside on a different account for those times when the salvage marketers try their hand at driving the prices up. 100 pieces of each uncommon in the AH, and bids are refreshed as needed, should those times re-visit. Rare salvage is kept via brain storm idea. One character sells the lower levels, and passes the appropriate ones to the farmer if necessary. And then Brain Storm ideas are bid for again, to keep the inventory maxed. 

I continue to make probably a billion every 3-5 days with another niche which I'll keep to myself. I used to talk about it - but the competition is annoying to deal with. I keep overspending every couple of weeks to keep the profits on these so low, they have to be very stubborn with very deep pockets to keep up. And then when they leave, I make up for lost time. The best part is - the list price has remained the same for at least a year. 

The big hiccup I'm having seems to be in the supply side. There's too much of it. People are reading too many guides, and not padding my pockets! The IOs I used to get for 3-4M are now only getting me 2.5-3M. 

A few still maintain their price, but one in particular, the perf shifter+end, I had over 30 of them sitting, unsold at the same price I always have listed them at for the past few years. Suddenly, whomever else is in that space has decided they are worth less money. 
On one hand, it means my stacks of inf are now worth more, because it can go further. But on the other hand, it drops my income. 

It would be grieving, I think, if I were to use my resources and simply buy the ones that are dirt cheap and relist. The option is there, but it just seems like a jerk move. I don't think it's against any rules. And it's not like I wouldn't use those IOs eventually. But to buy all the recipes of all the end mod sets, buy all the end mod IOs, that would take up a lot of inventory. And I don't think it's fair to say I'd find a way to use them all. I just wish these folks would just let MY price be THE price, lol. Is that too much to ask? Apparently! 

In any event, that's where I'm at. Vendoring my recipes that I used to craft, convert and sell. It's a reduction in my income, but I make up for it with accumulating a lot more reward merits that sit in hero merits now instead of as converters. 

So, maybe the supply will drop a bit now that I'm no longer selling Oblits, Perf Shifters, Power Transfers, Unbreakable Guards, Preventative Medicines, Numinas and occasionaly, Sudden Accelerations, and Bombardments. (other than Unbreakable Guards, I'm referring to the uniques/procs in the sets) 

If I can't get 3M for it, it just isn't worth the time. 

[tidge]

Specific to %procs: I always check the AH before listing them. There are quite a few %procs that (some) sellers appear to list incredibly high, despite the observation that very few builds could use those pieces and/or very few shared builds opt to use those pieces. This was true years ago, and it is still true. Trap of the Hunter %Lethal, I'm calling you out! There are a few others that used to have relatively large imbalances in for-sales and open bids, and everytime I check those the circumstances haven't changed.

 

There are a few other things that I believe impact %proc sales, including new power sets and/or changes to existing powers/ATs. One example is this (my perception): Powers that don't do Knockback against even-or-higher level mobiles are less likely to "need" a Sudden Acceleration KB->KD piece... and it isn't like a lot of the new sets are adding multiple powers that do Knockback, so a single Overwhelming Force may be all that some players need... if they care at all!

 

Obliteration and Bombardment are IMO an interesting case study in how the available level (30-50) is probably working against their desirability, because prior to level 27 (or 30) there are multiple options for other %damage pieces to be added to powers. The %Fire from Bombardment is IMO a nice mixed damage type for most of my characters, but the %Smashing from Obliteration is slightly more meh.

 

 

[Intrinsic]

My decision to sell a recipe on the AH is based on the demand for the recipe.  If there are a hundred copies of a recipe for sale with no open bids, I'll just dump that one onto the NPC vendor.  If there is competitive bidding for a recipe then I'll list it based on the last five sales amount.  At this point I do it more to participate in the economy and help on the supply side than to make huge profits.

[Ridiculous Girl]

what some people do not seem to understand is that the your list price is the minimum price that you will accept for the sale. so if you list sometihng that has 300 for sale, 1000 bids, and last 5 selling prices for 1mil, you are not going to get more than that and most likely will get lot less if listed with a very low selling price. certain people will list for 1 inf, to get around paying the fee, but if they list more than one, they will most like lose again, and get less than if they listed at a reasonable going price.

 

i do a lot of high volume selling of IO set enhancements, i've pased 60,000 IOs sold. i have a general feel what something is worth. but i know, that if i list 70 enhancement and they are not gone in 24 hours, that i have listed too high. if it takes too long, i will take them down, take the loss and sell for a lower price, but that truthfully very rarely happens.

 

i also know that anything end/rec does not sell, ever, at a reason price or speed. certain proc encs, etc, are glutted in the market, because people have come to believe that the converter roulette is best and procs are the best too. but the rest have a reasonably stable market price with flucuations varying weekends vs weekdays, night/day cycles, etc.

 

people that list exclusively for 1inf, for anything other than common/uncommon items, is a personal pet peeve, since they are not helping anyone really. they can quickly tank the market, and only help people that have funds to let sit for long periods of time for a lucky off chance that someone will low ball their sale of a valuable recipe/enc. it really irks me...

[JKCarrier]

5 hours ago, Ridiculous Girl said:

people that list exclusively for 1inf, for anything other than common/uncommon items, is a personal pet peeve, since they are not helping anyone really. they can quickly tank the market, and only help people that have funds to let sit for long periods of time for a lucky off chance that someone will low ball their sale of a valuable recipe/enc. it really irks me...

Yeah, whoops, my bad. At this point, I've got enough "seed money" from old alts that I don't need to worry about getting top dollar for anything. If something can be sold at a vendor, it gets sold at a vendor, just to get rid of it. Merits get turned into Boosters, Catalysts, Converters, or Unslotters, thrown on the market for cheap, and that earns me more Inf than I'll ever need.

[Ghost]

5 hours ago, Ridiculous Girl said:

 

 

people that list exclusively for 1inf, for anything other than common/uncommon items, is a personal pet peeve, since they are not helping anyone really. they can quickly tank the market, and only help people that have funds to let sit for long periods of time for a lucky off chance that someone will low ball their sale of a valuable recipe/enc. it really irks me...

Sorry it irks you.

It irks me to see people overprice things just to bleed other players dry….and for what?  You are most certainly not helping anyone by trying in vain to keep prices high.  Well, unless you count growing your stockpile of inf as “helping others”

 

Edited September 7 by Ghost

[Triumphant]

Quote

certain people will list for 1 inf, to get around paying the fee

 

I do this, but not to get around paying a listing fee.  I do it because I feel that everything that I sell has a value of 1 inf (actually, I think everything on the market has a value of zero influence, because I play Comic Book RPG's to imagine heroes battling villains, not making a shopping list and going to the grocery store and I don't believe in even having player economies in video games.  Sure, I'm almost certainly alone in this respect, but that's how I feel).

 

I do enjoy customizing my characters with enhancement sets.  But I wish it was free to do that (and no, I don't think eliminating that  grind would make the game boring for me.  There are so many combinations of  IO's, AT's and powersets and so many combinations of parts to make costumes and bases, that I could literally play those aspects of this game, along with missions, and never get bored.  Futzing with the market is what bores me).

 

But since the /AH is a reality and it isn't going anywhere, I make my interactions with it as brief and simple as possible.  I sell low demand recipes at the vendor for 5,000 to 20,000 inf.  Everything else I list on the /AH for 1 inf.  This is quick, easy, and painless and gets me millions (over time, billions, I'm quite sure- I've been playing since 2019) to outfit my lvl 50's in purple enhancement sets.  Why would I (or anyone else) need more influence than that?

 

Quote

but if they list more than one, they will most like lose again, and get less than if they listed at a reasonable going price.

 

Yes, but again, so what?  Everything I sell comes in drops, which is free simply by dint of playing the game.  If I sell it for 1 inf and someone buys it for 1 inf (yes, this happens to me a fair amount of the time), I made a profit of 1 inf (though often, I sell a rare recipe for 1 inf and make several million for my effort.  This is not at all uncommon).  As I said, I make enough this way to outfit my lvl 50's with purple IO sets.  Why do I need more influence than that?d

 

Quote

people that list exclusively for 1inf, for anything other than common/uncommon items, is a personal pet peeve, since they are not helping anyone really. they can quickly tank the market, and only help people that have funds to let sit for long periods of time for a lucky off chance that someone will low ball their sale of a valuable recipe/enc. it really irks me...

 

Since you work to sell at a profit, unlike myself, you ought to be making quite a lot more influence than I am (though, again, since I make enough to slot purple sets on my characters, I can't imagine why you would need to), so you ought to be one of those people with plenty of funds available to allow to sit for a long period of time, so you can lowball the price.

[EmperorSteele]

I just craft what I think I might want later, or something that I know will sell if I end up deciding I don't want it.

 

I wonder how many others do the same, and thus don't need to rely on the market as much, thus making it harder for sellers to make a buck?

[lemming]

1 hour ago, EmperorSteele said:

I just craft what I think I might want later, or something that I know will sell if I end up deciding I don't want it.

 

I wonder how many others do the same, and thus don't need to rely on the market as much, thus making it harder for sellers to make a buck?

Describes me pretty well.   I hardly buy anything off the AH and tend to stock plenty for my next alt.   I actually bought Very Rare sets the other day which is completely outside my norm, but since I'm still building up influence at a decent rate, I'll probably explore more time saving than inf building.

[Ukase]

On 8/31/2024 at 10:53 AM, Maelwys said:

I tend to list Purple and PvP recipes and Rare salvage on the AH (for 1 inf)

If you like, I'm happy to buy all your purple & PvP recipes and your rare salvage en masse for 100inf! And no fees! Win/win! 

[Maelwys]

11 minutes ago, Ukase said:

If you like, I'm happy to buy all your purple & PvP recipes and your rare salvage en masse for 100inf! And no fees! Win/win! 

By all means, place the bid orders now and the instant everyone else decides they're only prepared to pay 99 inf or less: Kerching!

I know it annoys certain folks no end that some farmers regularly place sell orders on the AH for buttons... but IMO fulfilling whatever lowbid offers are currently in place (i) helps keeps the supply ticking over and (ii) allows anyone who genuinely needs the loot in question to have a better idea of how much inf they'd realistically need to bid in order to actually get their paws on it within the next day or two.
(The "buy it now" crowd are always going to spend more anyway...)
 

Edited September 10 by Maelwys

[lemming]

1 hour ago, Maelwys said:

By all means, place the bid orders now and the instant everyone else decides they're only prepared to pay 99 inf or less: Kerching!

I know it annoys certain folks no end that some farmers regularly place sell orders on the AH for buttons... but IMO fulfilling whatever lowbid offers are currently in place (i) helps keeps the supply ticking over and (ii) allows anyone who genuinely needs the loot in question to have a better idea of how much inf they'd realistically need to bid in order to actually get their paws on it within the next day or two.
(The "buy it now" crowd are always going to spend more anyway...)
 

It works fine for items that have bidders already.  You'll get whatever the top bid is anyway and assuming it's not a bunch of lowballs, you'll do OK.

 

I went some chars yesterday and was retiring them and one of the steps is converting threads to super inspirations.  Those I just toss on the AH at a low price since there were plenty of bids for the ones I got.   Sometimes the 10 thread stuff is more efficient, sometimes the 30 thread ones.   It's also not the most lucrative area, but I cleared 100 million.  (Mainly because I didn't bother building any incarnates on that char...)

[tidge]

On 9/9/2024 at 2:02 PM, EmperorSteele said:

I just craft what I think I might want later, or something that I know will sell if I end up deciding I don't want it.

 

I wonder how many others do the same, and thus don't need to rely on the market as much, thus making it harder for sellers to make a buck?

 

I don't really think this approach hurts sellers.

 

This is me, but only to a point....depending on how many Catalysts I've stockpiled and/or the market price of Catalysts determines what I do on the level 50 respec. If I'm leveling slowly enough I may use the AH to catalyze, but I'm a little uneven about this.

[Yomo Kimyata]

1 hour ago, tidge said:

This is me, but only to a point....depending on how many Catalysts I've stockpiled and/or the market price of Catalysts determines what I do on the level 50 respec. If I'm leveling slowly enough I may use the AH to catalyze, but I'm a little uneven about this.

 

When I turn 50, which I have done a bunch of times, I'm generally going to need about 20-25 catalysts.  Usually I put in lowball bids for 30 or so a day or two before I hope to ding 50.  but that said, so what if I go into the market and spend 25mm on catalysts?  25mm is a rounding error for me and I think for most experienced players.  I've even clicked on the Character Items page to pull off catalysts from there, and we all know that's not worth our time!

[tidge]

10 hours ago, Yomo Kimyata said:

 

When I turn 50, which I have done a bunch of times, I'm generally going to need about 20-25 catalysts.  Usually I put in lowball bids for 30 or so a day or two before I hope to ding 50.  but that said, so what if I go into the market and spend 25mm on catalysts?  25mm is a rounding error for me and I think for most experienced players.  I've even clicked on the Character Items page to pull off catalysts from there, and we all know that's not worth our time!

 

I think the highest number of Catalysts I've used on a level 50 respec was on the order of 60; that was for a character that was using ATOs (typical) plus several Winter sets (unusual for me) but also happened to have a whole lotta other pieces ready to slot in. Most of those Catalysts were from lowball bids.

 

One habit I had to break myself of was Catalyzing singleton Winter's set pieces in franken-slotted powers, since they are the equivalent of 50+5 pieces. I suppose folks can haggle about the cost of 5 boosters on top of a common level 50 enhancement, but I've found passing the un-Catalyzed Winter pieces to new characters to be another simple form of charity.

[Maelwys]

I don't think I've ever used more than 10 Catalysts on a single build (to "Superior" two full sets of ATOs) ever since I figured out that the Homecoming AH pools both levelled and attuned enhancements together (and so there's there's no downside to buying attuned enhancements directly off the AH instead of using Catalysts on them!). But the Winter sets tend to be a "only useful once I ding 50" thing for me anyway.

My SG base always has at least three full bins of Boosters at any one time though. I go through those like popcorn...
 

Edited September 11 by Maelwys

[lemming]

I still use a bunch of catalysts, but not as many as I used to and since i bounce around characters that are 50, I tend to generate plenty of my own.

[Ukase]

On 9/7/2024 at 3:37 PM, Triumphant said:

Yes, but again, so what?  Everything I sell comes in drops, which is free simply by dint of playing the game.  If I sell it for 1 inf and someone buys it for 1 inf (yes, this happens to me a fair amount of the time), I made a profit of 1 inf (though often, I sell a rare recipe for 1 inf and make several million for my effort.  This is not at all uncommon).  As I said, I make enough this way to outfit my lvl 50's with purple IO sets.  Why do I need more influence than that?d

I do not wish to debate your philosophy - you're entitled to play however you wish! 

But, I was wondering if you were aware that when you sell for 1 inf - and on those occasions someone has anticipated such an offer and you complete the sale - you are charged 5 inf, so you really lose 4 inf on that. 

Now, we're all smart enough to know we're not going to lose sleep over 4 inf. Well, most won't. I was just wondering if you were aware the AH takes a minimum of 5 inf, even if you list at 1 inf.