Broadsword is depressing.

[Nightmare Shaman]

I love the weapon designs.  There's so many to chose from.  But, despite trying over and over, in many builds, I just can't play it.  I want to like it.  But, it's just too ... darn  ... slow.  (Also, the first two attacks say 1.33 animation time, but they lock you in place for longer than that.  So, it feels much longer.)

Despite being having substantially slower animations than katana, the damage is only slightly better.  Barely better.  It makes no sense.  War mace got an update which made it amazing.  Battle axe got an update which made it amazing.  Make broadsword amazing again!  

That is all.  

[tidge]

I can't speak to personal experience with Broadsword, but when I leveled up with War Mace years ago I thought that set was painfully slow. The set didn't come together as offering what I felt to be a smooth attack chain until I had some global recharge; with a full-kit of enhancement sets in the attacks at level 50 the attacks are completely smooth, even with exemplar content below level 20. The recharge doesn't do anything for the animation times, but once the harder-hitting attacks are part of the regular chain those animations should be less painful.

[The Trouble]

I felt similarly for a long time.  I made multiple attempts, even back on Live.  Broadsword gameplay just didn't click for me no matter how cool the concept or costume.  That all changed when I saw a random post someone made talking about their swordsman proc-monster.  I suddenly felt excited to play a Scrapper that had collected dust for months... and the first Scrapper I've ever cared about.  The damage and debuffs on this guy evaporated my apathy towards the set, and an entire archetype.

 

I'm not saying this specific thing will work for you, but you might find some inspiration by checking out other people's builds.  Maybe there's something out there so inspiring that the slowness won't even bother you anymore?

[Uun]

I think Broadsword is fine. I was just playing mine yesterday and found it quite enjoyable. The animations may "feel" slow, but it gives you the sense that you're wielding something heavy. You compare it to War Mace, but there's virtually no difference in the animation times. Other than Parry vs. Clobber, the damage is pretty similar too.

 

Cast Arcanatime
Broadsword		War Mace
Slash	1.584	Bash	1.584
Hack	1.584	Pulverize	1.716
Parry	1.584	Clobber	1.452
Disembowel	1.98	Jawbreaker	1.98
Head Splitter	2.508	Shatter	2.508
Slice	2.244	Crowd Control	2.244
Whirling Sword	2.904	Whirling Mace	2.904

[Without_Pause]

I would stick it with an armor which offers +Recharge. Getting a flat +20% Recharge is nice. On a Def based armor, you could even reason skipping Parry at some point. 

[Nightmare Shaman]

16 minutes ago, Uun said:

I think Broadsword is fine. I was just playing mine yesterday and found it quite enjoyable. The animations may "feel" slow, but it gives you the sense that you're wielding something heavy. You compare it to War Mace, but there's virtually no difference in the animation times. Other than Parry vs. Clobber, the damage is pretty similar too.

 

Cast Arcanatime
Broadsword		War Mace
Slash	1.584	Bash	1.584
Hack	1.584	Pulverize	1.716
Parry	1.584	Clobber	1.452
Disembowel	1.98	Jawbreaker	1.98
Head Splitter	2.508	Shatter	2.508
Slice	2.244	Crowd Control	2.244
Whirling Sword	2.904	Whirling Mace	2.904

Cast times are not the only issues.  Cast times aren't a problem if they are long BUT ALSO hit hard.  For example:

1) Parry is effectively useless damage wise versus clobber which is the hardest single target attack of both BS and WM.  It hits like a truck in the same time as a mostly useless power.  (and in less time than literally anything else BS has to offer)
2) Head splitter has a 20% radius vs 45% with shatter which makes a huge difference on how many targets are hit.
3) Slice, again, does paltry damage compared to crowd control BUT ALSO has a smaller radius.

In short, WM has some similarly slow attacks, but they hit HARD and hit MORE targets.  And, to throw even more into the mix, it's hardest hitting attack has a comparatively tiny animation time (clobber).  It's not even close.

Every weapon you can put side by side with BS outperforms it in its own way.  The two that didn't years ago were tweaked and now are superior.  So, katana, WM, and BA are all tangibly better choices.

[Uun]

15 minutes ago, Nightmare Shaman said:

1) Parry is effectively useless damage wise versus clobber which is the hardest single target attack of both BS and WM.  It hits like a truck in the same time as a mostly useless power.  (and in less time than literally anything else BS has to offer)
2) Head splitter has a 20% radius vs 45% with shatter which makes a huge difference on how many targets are hit.
3) Slice, again, does paltry damage compared to crowd control BUT ALSO has a smaller radius.

1. I'm not suggesting Parry and Clobber are comparable. If you don't need the +def, Parry is skippable. 
2. Head Splitter has a 10 ft radius vs. 8 ft for Shatter. Both have the same 5 target cap. Head Splitter does more damage.
3. Crowd Control is obviously superior to Slice, but it's a T9 vs. a T2. Slice does very respectable damage for a T2. I was simply comparing the two cones against one another.

I play both sets and I'm not knocking War Mace. Your points about War Mace having wider cones are valid, but your complaint in the OP was specifically about the animation times.

[Scarlet Shocker]

You ain't kidding

 

 

[Kaika]

My issue with BS really comes down to

 

Katana is literally the same thing but better in every way

 

1 for 1, back in issue 0 Katana and BS were the same animations as well, with katana having slightly faster recharge and lower damage, but katana got revamped to get the much faster animations it has today, while BS kept the original ones. Unfortunately this was before the devs considered animation time as important to performance, and katanas new animations basically led it to not only being faster and more efficient, but having flat of better DPS as well. Honestly I don't think BS is super awful on it's own, it's not terrible in terms of performance, just on the lower end and out done in every way by another set. To add to that, it's remained unchanged basically forever while all the other issue 0 weapon sets have all received pretty significant reworks over the years. It's just kinda boring, while BS might not be the worst melee set in the game, I think it the most in need of a rework.

Edited October 2 by Kaika

[catsi563]

Should we tell them about how slow Battle Axe is?

[Kaika]

5 minutes ago, catsi563 said:

Should we tell them about how slow Battle Axe is?

We did, and it got a massive rework and is now super unique, fun, and considered one of the best melee sets in the game ATM.

[Nightmare Shaman]

1 hour ago, Uun said:

1. I'm not suggesting Parry and Clobber are comparable. If you don't need the +def, Parry is skippable. 
2. Head Splitter has a 10 ft radius vs. 8 ft for Shatter. Both have the same 5 target cap. Head Splitter does more damage.
3. Crowd Control is obviously superior to Slice, but it's a T9 vs. a T2. Slice does very respectable damage for a T2. I was simply comparing the two cones against one another.

I play both sets and I'm not knocking War Mace. Your points about War Mace having wider cones are valid, but your complaint in the OP was specifically about the animation times.

I forgot to mention that crowd control not only has a wider cone and does more damage, BUT ALSO hits 10 targets vs 5 for slice.  It's clearly superior in every way, just like clobber compared to parry.  You made these comparisons, not me.

When I posted what I posted, I thought it safe to assume people would understand the apples to oranges difference between a power with the same animation having a different function, amount of damage, cone size, number of targets, etc.  It's quite clear with your comparison, that WM is not the same as BS in any tangible way aside from lining up animation times.  WM hits HARDER, more targets, wider cones, and has the hardest hitting single target ability out of either with a tiny animation time.  It is superior to BS in every way, aside from maybe a preference for -defense.  And, katana and BA are also superior to BS for similar reasons.  (Katana being an inversion of WM, but the damage is only slightly less with massively less animation times.)  

BS was inferior to katana on release, and is now inferior to WM and BA since their reworks.  It's clunky, slow, and it's not a coincidence that you almost never see them on a scrapper, brute, or tank.  

[megaericzero]

2 hours ago, Uun said:

The animations may "feel" slow, but it gives you the sense that you're wielding something heavy.

This.

 

2 hours ago, Nightmare Shaman said:

Parry is effectively useless damage wise versus clobber which is the hardest single target attack of both BS and WM.

Parry (and Divine Avalanche) are utility over damage; they trade the raw power for a hefty defense buff to melee and lethal - both very common damage vectors for someone who has Parry to encounter - that can be maintained as long as you keep sprinkling them between other attacks.

 

By all means, if you don't need that sort of thing (such as already having a defense-based armor), skip them for a pool power but they're a good example of niche-but-potent powers that I would really rather the HC team not touch and turn into a middling all-arounder.

[mistagoat]

BS feels bad... I have scrappers of each weapon set and BS was the least fun to level. Everything it does is done better in other sets. There is effectively no reason to play BS unless it's for RP or you just like the concept or appearance. As others have said, it's not unplayable and it's not the lowest damage set but it has nothing that makes it stand out in any way and it just doesn't feel good. At least that was my experience with it.

I plan on doing a rad armor tank with every secondary (I'm more than halfway there!) but I'm kind of dreading getting the BS done...

 

The funny thing is that back on live my BS/Willpower scrapper felt like a monster! I don't think it's been nerfed (though not 100% sure) but other sets have been buffed/reworked/proliferated so well that they left BF in the dust.

[Rudra]

There are players that aren't happy with Broadsword. Okay, that happens with different power sets. (For instance, I find both the Rad Melee and Rad Armor sets depressing [the armor set] or too clunky [the melee set] to use. I don't like either set.) However, I see two things that are problematic from my point of view with the OP. The first is that the OP requests "Make broadsword amazing again!" without stating what would make the set "amazing" to the author. The second is that the author isn't providing any play data or other reference-able data for the devs to check/make use of to "make broadsword amazing again".

 

(Also, if a T2 cone were to be as capable as a T9 cone from another set, there would be something seriously wrong with one of those sets.)

 

(Edit: Yes, the OP references animation and root times, but those are factored into the power's performance. So the only way the author is going to get those changed, is with actual checkable play data. Any other changes to "make broadsword amazing again" need to be stated for what the author wants, or (s)he/they may find changes they don't want.)

 

Edited October 2 by Rudra

[Psyonico]

38 minutes ago, Rudra said:

the OP references animation and root times, but those are factored into the power's performance.

Are they?

 

I mean, I know on newer sets they are, but a lot of OG sets weren't balanced with these things in mind, so if BS never got a once over (not sure if it has or not) then it's probable that it isn't actually balanced around animation/root times.

[Rudra]

7 minutes ago, Psyonico said:

Are they?

 

I mean, I know on newer sets they are, but a lot of OG sets weren't balanced with these things in mind, so if BS never got a once over (not sure if it has or not) then it's probable that it isn't actually balanced around animation/root times.

To the best of my knowledge, yes, they are. However, if the author (or anyone else) can show that Broadsword is not in line with the other sets for it, then that would be game data the devs keep asking us players to provide but never seem to. So again, game data to show the set needs to be updated/changed is what the devs ask we provide when we ask for sets to be updated/changed.

 

(Edit: I would also ask that you prove that "a lot of OG sets weren't balanced with these things in mind", because even back on Live, there was great discussion about how the sets were balanced, and the animation times were part of those discussions.)

 

Edited October 2 by Rudra

[Nightmare Shaman]

1 hour ago, megaericzero said:

This.

 

Parry (and Divine Avalanche) are utility over damage; they trade the raw power for a hefty defense buff to melee and lethal - both very common damage vectors for someone who has Parry to encounter - that can be maintained as long as you keep sprinkling them between other attacks.

 

By all means, if you don't need that sort of thing (such as already having a defense-based armor), skip them for a pool power but they're a good example of niche-but-potent powers that I would really rather the HC team not touch and turn into a middling all-arounder.

I've solo'd ITF and done almost all difficult game content.  Been playing since 2004.  I make my own builds and am well versed in def, res, debuffs, hard caps, etc.  With all that in mind, I can tell you Parry is a power from a bygone era.  An era long before i/o set bonuses, and the ability to set mission difficulty, and increases to damage scales, etc..  I've seen so many people on forums only talk about parry and its uses and I can tell you with certainty if your build relies someone on parry, well you're doing it wrong (or you're playing on minimum difficulty and don't really understand what is happening behind the scenes).  The only thing parry brings to your arsenal is a decrease in dps.  I like the way it looks (BS version), but it simply does nothing for your build in terms of actual survivability and actual kill times.  It's just a waste of time and slots.

And, the only reason I even mentioned parry is because someone actually tried to compare it to clobber.  

I will say this - if you're using parry and think it is serving a purpose, try doing the same mission without using it and see if you die.  Also, try timing a mission with and without using parry in your rotation and see if there is a difference.  You know what would be awesome and change the game?  Make parry give 10-15 seconds of ddr.  Then I would use it, and it would functionally serve a purpose again.  Or, just give it mid tier or high tier damage similar to how clobber was adjusted.  Then, everyone would take it and the def bonus would just be lagniappe.  

Edited October 2 by Nightmare Shaman

[Riverdusk]

The only time I even consider broadsword is if I want to play a sword set with shield.  It is the one advantage BS has over katana since for some reason in this universe you can hold a much bigger broadsword with only your right hand, but a katana takes both hands. 

 

I know it is an animation issue, but I find it amusing.

 

Edit:  I do think it works best on a stalker.  Considering stalkers are at least partly more about the front loaded damage vs. dps over time, the extra bit of extra base damage that broadsword gives is sometimes more useful.  And stalkers can't get battle axe or mace.

Edited October 2 by Riverdusk

[biostem]

I think part of the problem also comes down, as touched upon on the OP, the particular weapon model used - you see your character swinging around some epic custom weapon that you've painstakingly crafted, but the attacks still sound and feel like you're using the generic weapon model.  I don't think there is an ultimate solution that would please everybody, here, besides tempering your expectation or trying other sets...

[Greycat]

If your broadsword is depressing, you're using it wrong. Use the pointy end or the thin side, don't push the enemies with the flat side. *nods*

 

 

... ok, smartalec-ness aside, I don't mind broadsword. The only difficulty I had with it when concentrating on it - mind you, this was on live with SOs - was that my BS/SR scrapper just chewed through their END like crazy.

 

(Said scrapper saying hi from the old comic... third from left on the ledge.)

[Nightmare Shaman]

33 minutes ago, Rudra said:

To the best of my knowledge, yes, they are. However, if the author (or anyone else) can show that Broadsword is not in line with the other sets for it, then that would be game data the devs keep asking us players to provide but never seem to. So again, game data to show the set needs to be updated/changed is what the devs ask we provide when we ask for sets to be updated/changed.

 

(Edit: I would also ask that you prove that "a lot of OG sets weren't balanced with these things in mind", because even back on Live, there was great discussion about how the sets were balanced, and the animation times were part of those discussions.)

 

When you say something like this, where is the evidence?  Because I can simply put the powers side by side and quite easily prove one set is outperforming the other and more importantly, several powers have the same animation time(or similar) but substantially different damage, different # of targets, different arcs, etc.  

War Mace
                     dam    time   # targets  Arc
Bash             10.25   1.33
Pulverize       16.81  1.50
Jawbreaker   20.09  1.83
Clobber        29.93  1.23
WM              11.48  2.67    10             pbaoe
Shatter         23.37  2.33    5               45%
CC                16.5    2         10             180%

Broad Sword

Hack           16.81  1.33
Slash           10.25  1.33
Slice            12.61  2          5             130%
WS              16.55  2.67    10             pbaoe
Dis               20.09  1.8
HS               26.65  2.33    5               20%

So, if you look at this:
1) Bash = Slash
2) Pulverize =/= hack (different animation times)
3) Jawbreaker =/= Disembowel (slightly diff animation times)
4) Clobber has no equivalent, but has the highest damage and lowest animation time.  Help me under stand how that fits your logic.
5) WM =/= WS (same animation time, same number of targets, significantly different damage)  
6) Shatter =/= HS  (same animation time, same targets, different damage, significantly different arcs)
7) CC =/= slice (Not even close)

There's clearly serious inconsistencies.  i.e. There is virtually no consistency between animation time and damage, # of targets, arcs, etc.  So, why do you think what you said is accurate?  That somehow the damage and animation are correlated?


 

[Nightmare Shaman]

16 minutes ago, Riverdusk said:

The only time I even consider broadsword is if I want to play a sword set with shield.  It is the one advantage BS has over katana since for some reason in this universe you can hold a much bigger broadsword with only your right hand, but a katana takes both hands. 

 

I know it is an animation issue, but I find it amusing.

 

Edit:  I do think it works best on a stalker.  Considering stalkers are at least partly more about the front loaded damage vs. dps over time, the extra bit of extra base damage that broadsword gives is sometimes more useful.  And stalkers can't get battle axe or mace.

I believe you're right in regard to stalker.  

In regard to katana - It's because Silver Samurai said you have to hold a Japanese sword with two hands.  (In "The Wolverine".)  lol  

[Rudra]

1 hour ago, Nightmare Shaman said:

So, why do you think what you said is accurate?  That somehow the damage and animation are correlated?

When it comes to the different powers and power sets, everything is factored. The damage each power does, the animation times of those powers, the endurance cost of those powers, the secondary effects of those powers. Everything.

 

For instance:

War Mace: Bash: 1.05 base accuracy, 7 feet range, 1.33 cast, 0.5 seconds before effect, 4 second recharge, 5.2 endurance, 10% chance of Mag 2 Stun for 5.96 seconds, 62.5615 damage.

Broadsword: Hack: 1.05 base accuracy, 7 feet range, 1.33 cast, 0.7 seconds before effect, 8 second recharge, 8.528 endurance, 100% chance of -7.5% target defense for 10 seconds, 102.6009 damage.

 

Edit again:

Broadsword: Slash: 1.05 base accuracy, 7 feet range, 1.33 cast, 0.5 seconds before effect, 4 second recharge, 5.2 endurance, 100% chance of -7.5% target defense for 6 seconds, 62.5615 damage.

 

Edit yet again:

Let's also take a look at Crowd Control vs. Head Splitter.

War Mace: Crowd Control: 1.05 base accuracy, 8 feet range, 2 second cast, 0.9 seconds before effect, 12 second recharge, 11.856 endurance, 180 degree arc, 10 target max, 100% chance of Mag 0.67 KB (KD), 100.724 damage.

Broadsword: Head Splitter: 1.05 base accuracy, 10 feet range, 2.33 second cast, 1.233 seconds before effect, 14 second recharge, 13.52 endurance, 20 degree arc, 5 targets max, 60% chance of Mag 0.67 KB (KD), 100% chance of -7.5% target defense for 10 seconds, 162.6599 damage.

 

Powers are not just animation time and damage. So if you want to have Broadsword changed, you need to provide justifying data that the devs can readily check to convince them to change it.

 

 

Edited October 2 by Rudra
Edited to add secondary effect durations. And again to add missed Hack endurance cost.

[Rudra]

15 minutes ago, Nightmare Shaman said:

In regard to katana - It's because Silver Samurai said you have to hold a Japanese sword with two hands.  (In "The Wolverine".)  lol  

In regard to Katana, it is because kendo/kenjutsu teach the sword is properly wielded with both hands. (Edit: As opposed to broadsword that was commonly wielded one-handed with a shield like longswords and arming swords.)

 

Edited October 2 by Rudra