Give Double Jump more functionality (Sub Power of Super Jump)

[Mystoc]

Let's face it Double jump is by far the least unique sub travel power we have it lets you jump in midair but there are two S.T.A.R.T. powers that already let you do that exact same thing Jump Pack & Steam Jump.

 

How I would enhance it is simple let Double Jump give you protection against -Jump. Super Jumps biggest weakness is by far -jump since enemy powers that do this almost always also cause slow, you now have snail as character without the ability to use their core means of travel at the enemy's mercy.

 

EDIT: many people want to me convince web grenades are stronger than gravity and that is not why I made this post so I'm removing this line its distracting from the goal of this topic, simply put I think super jump is way too weak to -jump and giving double jump protection against that makes logical sense.

 

 

 

Edited November 8 by Mystoc

[Psyonico]

2 hours ago, Mystoc said:

but there are two S.T.A.R.T. powers that already let you do that exact same thing Jump Pack & Steam Jump.

By your logic, afterburner should get updated as well, since those two powers increase flight speed as well.

 

IMO Takeoff is the least useful of the travel secondary powers, as it has a long-ish animation time which slows your travel a bit and using it in combat means having mighty leap toggled on, which means higher end consumption

 

 

[Mystoc]

17 minutes ago, Psyonico said:

By your logic, afterburner should get updated as well, since those two powers increase flight speed as well.

 

IMO Takeoff is the least useful of the travel secondary powers, as it has a long-ish animation time which slows your travel a bit and using it in combat means having mighty leap toggled on, which means higher end consumption

 

 

afterburner lets you go over the flight speed cap those powers do not, those power you mentioned just help you reach the cap not pass it.

 

takeoff might be worse I don't know enough to say otherwise I don't use the force of will enough in my builds to be informed on this, but at a glance an AoE knock back doesn't seem useless and it's not a permanent power the START vendor sells either but it does have a long 2 minute cooldown. Either way if you think it deserves a buff that should be its own thread.

[Greycat]

Eh. Don't really think it's needed, but other than that I'm not particularly against it either.

 

4 hours ago, Mystoc said:

 are you telling me a web grenade is stronger than gravity??

 

Well its purpose *is* to stick things in place... 😉

[Rudra]

5 hours ago, Mystoc said:

are you telling me a web grenade is stronger than gravity??

Doesn't have to be. It just has to be strong enough that with gravity, you can't jump out of it. (Edit: By the same token, flying lets you defy gravity too. And a web grenade will still stick your keister to the floor. Are you telling me it shouldn't do that for characters that can fly? [Edit again: And Afterburner doesn't do anything to protect you from that either.])

 

(Edit yet again: And considering the things we can glue to hang down from something despite its mass, the adhesive of the web grenade is very probably stronger than gravity. This is a super hero game with materials well beyond anything real world physics can currently make after all. It even has unobtainium.)

 

Edited November 8 by Rudra

[biostem]

TBH, I'd rather that double jump, well, allowed you to make a single additional jump, instead of the odd continuous upward motion like jump pack provides.  Basically, I'm imaging how the double jump ability in games like Castlevania SOTN works...

[Rudra]

20 minutes ago, biostem said:

TBH, I'd rather that double jump, well, allowed you to make a single additional jump, instead of the odd continuous upward motion like jump pack provides.  Basically, I'm imaging how the double jump ability in games like Castlevania SOTN works...

Maybe just call it Continuous Jump then? I would rather not nerf the power and have to go to START to get that functionality back and devote another power slot to it rather than have the popup tray hold it.

[Owl Girl]

in relative terms, gravity is an extremely weak interaction but it is very persistent. think about it: You defy gravity every time You stand up! I myself can easily pull You about with much, much more force than the gravitational pull of the earth, which isn't even strong enough to hold down a single flea (bionic or otherwise).

[tidge]

Rando comments:

 

Takeoff is pretty great as part of the Force of Will set's Mighty Leap. It's fine as a joke-y sort of combat move, and it jives well with the Leaping. I almost always get to where I want to be PDQ.

 

My one complaint about Afterburner is the longish down-time. I rarely get to where I want to be with it toggled on, even with Evasive Manuevers. Look elsewhere for my bad feels about the 4 (+1) toggles in the Flight Pool.

 

I agree that Double Jump is kind of clunky. It's used exclusively when my Jump isn't quite getting me to where I want to be (or a suitable landing spot is not close by)... so I sort of see the point of the OP.  Super Jump was my favorite travel power on Live, so I'm pretty satisfied with the relatively quick Mighty Leap (from Force of Will). 

 

My general suggestion when it comes to Legacy Day 0 power pools (so not just the Travels, but also Presence, Medicine) is this: Like the Fighting pool, there probably should be some inherent boosting of most of the power choices for taking more than one power in the pool. Folks can look elsewhere for my suggestions for Presence and Medicine, but for travel pools I think the most obvious things would be something like boosts to speed/range to the dedicated travel power.

[Mystoc]

8 hours ago, Rudra said:

Maybe just call it Continuous Jump then? I would rather not nerf the power and have to go to START to get that functionality back and devote another power slot to it rather than have the popup tray hold it.

I said give more functionality to double jump not take away its ability to double jump. it still does what it does but now has something the differentiates it from the start vendor power is the idea.

[Mystoc]

10 hours ago, Rudra said:

(Edit: By the same token, flying lets you defy gravity too. And a web grenade will still stick your keister to the floor. Are you telling me it shouldn't do that for characters that can fly? [Edit again: And Afterburner doesn't do anything to protect you from that either.])

 

(Edit yet again: And considering the things we can glue to hang down from something despite its mass, the adhesive of the web grenade is very probably stronger than gravity. This is a super hero game with materials well beyond anything real world physics can currently make after all. It even has unobtainium.)

 

 

 

fly has many other ways to gain -fly protection if desired like hover which is often taken simply because its LOTG mule and even has dedicated flight IO set the does the same thing, not all sub travel powers need to give protection against its mean of travel if there are other ways to gain protection present to the player, super jump has none and fly has multiple.

 

also the nature of fly means most times you will be at range thus less likely to be targeted in teams and will also avoid the ground effects the catch players that cause -jump and -fly like quicksand and tar patch ect.. super jump is much more prone to getting tagged by enemy powers that do this so its far more weak to it then fly is.

 

Edited November 8 by Mystoc

[biostem]

Hmm.. what if SJ had a PBAoE knockdown effect if you land from more than a certain height, (if that's even mechanically possible)...

[Rudra]

2 hours ago, Mystoc said:

11 hours ago, Rudra said:

Maybe just call it Continuous Jump then? I would rather not nerf the power and have to go to START to get that functionality back and devote another power slot to it rather than have the popup tray hold it.

I said give more functionality to double jump not take away its ability to double jump. it still does what it does but now has something the differentiates it from the start vendor power is the idea.

You are not the one I was quoting, so not the one I was addressing.

[arcane]

Double Jump is good enough. No from me.

[Rudra]

2 hours ago, Mystoc said:

fly has many other ways to gain -fly protection if desired like hover

The only power in the Flight pool that shows -Fly resist is Evasive Maneuvers. The rest function by not being close enough to the ground for -Fly effects to yank you down. I use Hover frequently. Very, very, very frequently. It provides zero protection against -Fly effects. So this argument fails.

 

2 hours ago, Mystoc said:

and even has dedicated flight IO set the does the same thing

So ask for a jump IO that does the same thing.

 

2 hours ago, Mystoc said:

also the nature of fly means most times you will be at range thus less likely to be targeted in teams and will also avoid the ground effects the catch players that cause -jump and -fly like quicksand and tar patch ect

Which is why flying is the slowest travel power. You need a better argument.

 

 

[Mystoc]

43 minutes ago, Rudra said:

The only power in the Flight pool that shows -Fly resist is Evasive Maneuvers. The rest function by not being close enough to the ground for -Fly effects to yank you down. I use Hover frequently. Very, very, very frequently. It provides zero protection against -Fly effects. So this argument fails.

 

you are right Evasive Maneuvers only gives the -fly protection if you have hover or fly on. what confused me is in hover in the powers detailed info it states grants 4 mag to fly this what confused me into thinking this.

 

•  4.00 magnitude fly on self unresistable
• Specialfly speed on self unresistable
• +2.25%% strength to all defense on self unresistable 

but really my main point was the flight power pool offers way to protect against -fly in its own power pool super jump does not

 

43 minutes ago, Rudra said:

So ask for a jump IO that does the same thing.

 

I mean that would be better then giving it to double jump sure I would love that, since double jump is toggle with a cooldown and enhancement is just always on

 

I just think the devs are just way less likely to do this, so I didn't suggest it since when they added the extra travel IO sets they did it for each travel power I don't see them adding a new set just for leaping.

 

43 minutes ago, Rudra said:

Which is why flying is the slowest travel power. You need a better argument.

 

 

Fly is marginally slower than super jump and I think we would both agree is picked way more as a travel power. the ease of use of the power of being able to just hold forward or use auto run and fly above obstacles with no hassle is why it's so beloved in spite of its slower speed

 

super jump is faster but has all the weakness i mentioned in my previous response and it just sucks indoor maps caves with slopes you jump half a foot hit a incline and need mash jump again. Fly is not used because it's the fastest rather because it's by far the easiest travel power to use to navigate.

 

 

Edited November 8 by Mystoc

[Yomo Kimyata]

1 hour ago, biostem said:

Hmm.. what if SJ had a PBAoE knockdown effect if you land from more than a certain height, (if that's even mechanically possible)...

that would be sweet!

[Rudra]

21 minutes ago, Mystoc said:

but really my main point was the flight power pool offers way to protect against -fly in its own power pool super jump does not

Neither does any other travel power pool. Except for the Flight pool, if you want protection against -movement for the travel power in question, you have to go find other powers or enhancements.

 

21 minutes ago, Mystoc said:

I mean that would be better then giving it to double jump sure I would love that, since double jump is toggle with a cooldown and enhancement is just always on

 

I just think the devs are just way less likely to do this, so I didn't suggest it since when they added the extra travel IO sets they did it for each travel power I don't see them adding a new set just for leaping.

Why? The only thing Winter's Gift is missing is jump. So ask them to add it there. It already fits in.

 

21 minutes ago, Mystoc said:

Fly is marginally slower than super jump and I think we would both agree is picked way more as a travel power. the ease of use of the power of being able to just hold forward or use auto run and fly above obstacles with no hassle is why it's so beloved in spite of its slower speed

 

super jump is faster but has all the weakness i mentioned in my previous response and it just sucks indoor maps caves with slopes you jump half a foot hit a incline and need mash jump again. Fly is not used because it's the fastest rather because it's by far the easiest travel power to use to navigate.

Unmodified for a level 50, Fly gives the character 58.63 mph travel and Super Jump gives 78.18 mph travel. Flying caps at 87.95 mph while jumping caps at 92.5 mph.

https://homecoming.wiki/wiki/Travel_Powers

 

So what is your point about Super Jump being only slightly faster than Fly? It matches Super Speed. And it still gives Fly control over your movement, just not Fly travel.

 

Edited November 8 by Rudra
Edited to make speeds match the wiki rather than Mids.

[kelika2]

how about jump height speed?

its kinda agonizingly slow to get vertical height

[Riverdusk]

I love double jump as is.  If nothing else it makes super jump actually very nice for traveling the shadow shard.  I can now pretty much super jump (double jump) between islands there pretty easily and only occasionally need to turn on the jet pack during its cool downs.  Before it was introduced I never bothered and just used the jet pack.

[Mystoc]

2 hours ago, Rudra said:

Neither does any other travel power pool. Except for the Flight pool, if you want protection against -movement for the travel power in question, you have to go find other powers or enhancements.

 

1. yes but no enemies (that I know of) give -teleport
2. slow does not hurt super speed the same way -fly or -jump would the travel aspect is only partially oppressed you are still faster then the defualt movements speed unlike the other 2 if your jump or flying was disabled

 

2 hours ago, Rudra said:

 

Why? The only thing Winter's Gift is missing is jump. So ask them to add it there. It already fits in.

it gives resistance to slow effects that is not resistance to -fly or -jump

 

2 hours ago, Rudra said:

 

Unmodified for a level 50, Fly gives the character 58.63 mph travel and Super Jump gives 78.18 mph travel. Flying caps at 87.95 mph while jumping caps at 92.5 mph.

https://homecoming.wiki/wiki/Travel_Powers

 

So what is your point about Super Jump being only slightly faster than Fly? It matches Super Speed. And it still gives Fly control over your movement, just not Fly travel.

 

 

it's a 7 speed cap difference in capped speed that afterburner a free power flight gets let's fly even surpass be it temporarily, 7 in my mind is a slight difference..

 

super speed raises your running speed cap by 30% while on so it does not infract match super speed at all, super speeds running speed cap is 120.25 not 92.25

[Rudra]

55 minutes ago, Mystoc said:

it gives resistance to slow effects that is not resistance to -fly or -jump

Then a new set like Hypersonic. Still not a big deal to ask for an enhancement set.

 

55 minutes ago, Mystoc said:

it's a 7 speed cap difference in capped speed that afterburner a free power flight gets let's fly even surpass be it temporarily, 7 in my mind is a slight difference..

You also need to slot a lot more to get Fly to its cap than you do Super Jump. (Or use Afterburner to match Super Jump's speed for 30 seconds.) So is that what you want then? For Double Jump to let Super Jump exceed the leaping speed cap to match? (I'm still against this too, just like I'm against the -leaping protection. Just asking for clarity.)

 

Here's the thing from my point of view. When players take Super Jump, they get the ability to jump faster, farther, and higher than before. And when they activate Double Jump? They can fly for 30 seconds. At Super Jump's higher speed than Fly. Getting 30 seconds of "I can fly!' out of an "I can jump good!" power seems more than fair to me.

 

Edited November 8 by Rudra
Edited to add "Just asking for clarity." And again to add "At Super Jump's higher speed than Fly."