Never Tanked (except with a Brute)

[Hero Star]

As far as armors go Electric is one of my favorites. You get resistance to all types, an early dmg Aura for your ATO, a heal, an endurance replenish, resistance to slow, and the only one to get recovery debuff resistance? If it had any sort of +Dmg buff it might be #1. 

 

I've paired it with both Electric Melee and Super Strength. I'd give Electric the edge for AoE dmg and SS for the edge for ST and the ability to pierce through tohit debuffs. 

[Glacier Peak]

1 hour ago, Hero Star said:

As far as armors go Electric is one of my favorites. You get resistance to all types, an early dmg Aura for your ATO, a heal, an endurance replenish, resistance to slow, and the only one to get recovery debuff resistance? If it had any sort of +Dmg buff it might be #1. 

 

I've paired it with both Electric Melee and Super Strength. I'd give Electric the edge for AoE dmg and SS for the edge for ST and the ability to pierce through tohit debuffs. 

My very first villain to hit Level 50 was an Elec/ Elec Brute. I loved the armor and it's resilience. Same with the look of the powerset. I agree that it was lacking a +dmg aura, even some defensive mitigation, but when I think about it, it also had great endurance management that enabled me to focus my build toward chasing other areas to improve instead. 

[Erratic1]

22 minutes ago, Glacier Peak said:

I agree that it was lacking a +dmg aura

 

But Electric Armor has a damage aura.

[WuTang]

10 hours ago, Sovera said:

 

Nein. You do need to be on the ground to activate it, but once activated we can Fly and everything and its effects are still on.

Son of a......stupid outdated tooltip!

[WuTang]

To taunt or not to taunt...

Expected of a Tanker or fine without?

[Sovera]

Expected. In some narrow cases. Depends of what content you'll do. I got laughed at being on my tanker and joining an Hami and asked to taunt. Other than that one time taunt never came up. Some people will swear by it. I never noticed its lack, or its presence.

[Erratic1]

27 minutes ago, WuTang said:

To taunt or not to taunt...

Expected of a Tanker or fine without?

 

Seems to me to be more expected by Tankers here on the forum than something anyone is going to notice you not having/using.

 

Definitely has its uses, but on my most recent Tanker, I took it late and keep forgetting it is there. Nobody seems to notice.

[tidge]

28 minutes ago, WuTang said:

To taunt or not to taunt...

Expected of a Tanker or fine without?

 

For me: Taunt is expected, and I expect it to be taken before level 20. In a classic blue-side experience, I strongly dislike being on PUG and it isn't being used by Tankers on the Posi 2 or Synapse TFs. I will grant that some tankers may not quite have the suite of powers to handle all the damage than can come from some of those TFs (Toxic, especially), but I think it is pretty bad to see a "But my auras grab aggro fine when I solo" Tanker run past a bunch of critters that will turn on the rest of the teammates PDQ.

 

Personally, I don't care if it is single-slotted, slotted with only a %Psi, of more completely filled... but to never hear a Taunt tossed in x8 content is embarrassing. It's just about as bad as playing with Sentinels and never seeing the Vulnerability target.

 

I can completely understand why some players wouldn't take Taunt: It does nothing directly for a Tanker's offense or defense, and it isn't passive (aside from possible enhancement set bonuses). Taunt is however, the premier method of aggro control, which is a core game mechanic. A solo Tanker might literally never notice a need for it.

 

I'll finish with this: The efforts I see some builds go through to include Fold Space on a Tanker build yet put Taunt on the "shrug, maybe" list of powers is to me a very confusing choice.

[WuTang]

@tidge I've never taken it on any build, except for the build I made for my son's Brute. I have to admit the ranged aggro magnet looks pretty handy since he can pull without having to change position, and he can also "drag" mobs with him as he passes for an even bigger murder ball.

[tidge]

21 minutes ago, WuTang said:

@tidge I've never taken it on any build, except for the build I made for my son's Brute. I have to admit the ranged aggro magnet looks pretty handy since he can pull without having to change position, and he can also "drag" mobs with him as he passes for an even bigger murder ball.

 

There is also the -Range effect that Taunt has on mobs, which can be an extra help for teammates. There are some enemies where the Tanker wants aggro but doesn't want to be in melee range; for example Clamor, who puts an AoE debuff on a player that can make nearby teammates (such as other melee types) extremely vulnerable.

 

This is my experience (with teammates of varying levels of skill, powers, and enhancement choices): My Tankers are always switching targets (for Taunt and 'punchvoke') and are often very mobile (to get to those stray enemies that may be bothering teammates). The Tanker AoE volume makes it pretty easy to keep attention at the aggro cap with almost all enemy spawns by simply moving a relatively small amount,.. and this takes a lot fewer power choices than Fold Space does! Taunt can make it so that the Tanker barely has to move, if the fight is going to take some time. It also works on enemies that may have been immobilized by an AoE Control.

 

The Tanker Taunt is also a low endurance auto-hit, so it is never "wasted", and by investing just a few slots in it (I often go 6x Mocking Beratement) the duration and recharge times will be such that the Tanker could be at the aggro cap without ever throwing a punch or laying down a patch, or trying to aura-grab, or whatever.

[Glacier Peak]

13 minutes ago, tidge said:

 

There is also the -Range effect that Taunt has on mobs, which can be an extra help for teammates. There are some enemies where the Tanker wants aggro but doesn't want to be in melee range; for example Clamor, who puts an AoE debuff on a player that can make nearby teammates (such as other melee types) extremely vulnerable.

 

This is my experience (with teammates of varying levels of skill, powers, and enhancement choices): My Tankers are always switching targets (for Taunt and 'punchvoke') and are often very mobile (to get to those stray enemies that may be bothering teammates). The Tanker AoE volume makes it pretty easy to keep attention at the aggro cap with almost all enemy spawns by simply moving a relatively small amount,.. and this takes a lot fewer power choices than Fold Space does! Taunt can make it so that the Tanker barely has to move, if the fight is going to take some time. It also works on enemies that may have been immobilized by an AoE Control.

 

The Tanker Taunt is also a low endurance auto-hit, so it is never "wasted", and by investing just a few slots in it (I often go 6x Mocking Beratement) the duration and recharge times will be such that the Tanker could be at the aggro cap without ever throwing a punch or laying down a patch, or trying to aura-grab, or whatever.

My Tanker had to make some significant power and slot investments to make Fold Space happen. I love the power too, but I ended up respecing out of it after realizing I already had the tools in the toolbox so to speak. Fold Space is still an amazing power!

[tidge]

1 minute ago, Glacier Peak said:

My Tanker had to make some significant power and slot investments to make Fold Space happen. I love the power too, but I ended up respecing out of it after realizing I already had the tools in the toolbox so to speak. Fold Space is still an amazing power!

 

Oh yeah, Fold Space can be a fun power. I particularly like that it feels like a pretty good "capstone" power for a power pool set. At some point in Homecoming, I got the point where I was taking Combat Teleport on the way to Fold Space, and that Combat Teleport was more than enough of an "extra trick" to get and keep control of most rooms and to rescue teammates in trouble.

 

I tend to be slightly anti-evangelical about Fold Space, probably because of the necessary power (and slot) investment it requires for a "trick" that Tankers can pretty much do anyway using just Tanker tools. Sure there can be a circumstance where immobilized or knocked back mobiles may not be standing toe-to-toe with a Tanker, but IMO that's mostly an old-school sort of thinking about herding mobiles for long recharge AoE attacks. MMV of course. The necessary investment in pool choices to get Fold Space has the side effect of limiting what else a player can pick from other power pools and/or Epic sets which also require pre-requisite choices. My guess is that many Tankers with Fold Space also choose to invest in Hasten, which can allow for some optimization of attack chains but that approach to builds feels quite restrictive to me. Those would be two pool picks, and four powers... and the possibility that the travel power (of there is one!) is either Teleport or Super Speed... which for me are my last and second-to-last choices of travel powers... I do use them (rarely), but I disfavor them.

[Erratic1]

3 hours ago, tidge said:

...I think it is pretty bad to see a "But my auras grab aggro fine when I solo" Tanker run past a bunch of critters that will turn on the rest of the teammates PDQ.

 

WTF are they running to? 

 

Even if I am herding, I am coming back to the first group. And in that case I will not have engaged the first group but zipped past them so there should be no illusions about them paying any attention to me. And its not like you cannot let people know the plan before engaging.

 

I may be less communicative when there are multiple takers in the group but at that point there is plenty of aggro control.

[tidge]

2 minutes ago, Erratic1 said:

WTF are they running to?

 

Fore example: On Positron, there are several maps which include multiple spawns off-to-the-side (minions and Lts) of entrances with larger spawns are up ahead further in the room. I routinely see players jump to that first, more obvious spawn while ignoring those closer to the entrance. This sort of map construction isn't uncommon, but it is on every Posi 2.

 

I'm far less of a stickler for having Taunt on Posi 1, just because of the level requirement... but there are maps and encounters in that TF that demand players pay attention.

[WuTang]

1 hour ago, tidge said:

is either Teleport or Super Speed... which for me are my last and second-to-last choices of travel powers... I do use them (rarely), but I disfavor them.

Oh man I like them both. Teleport is not only the fastest way to travel but add a Void Skiff in the mix and you don't even have to worry about the 15 second...umm please don't fall because I forgot to turn off my auto-cast! And it can be used just like Combat TP in a fight, it only has a very slightly longer cast. It can be used with a macro to get to a very far away teammate. It is also the only travel power that only uses endurance "on use," versus an end-drain. And Super Speed has Phase, which to me has a cool effect, and adds a stealth element which can make it easy to "stealth" to the end of a mish. And you get a "long jump" and if you add in START vendor jump pack and you have a vertical. Fly is still universally the most useful travel power, with Mystic Flight arguably being the best.

Edited December 4 by WuTang

[WuTang]

12 minutes ago, Erratic1 said:

 

WTF are they running to? 

 

Even if I am herding, I am coming back to the first group. And in that case I will not have engaged the first group but zipped past them so there should be no illusions about them paying any attention to me. And its not like you cannot let people know the plan before engaging.

 

I may be less communicative when there are multiple takers in the group but at that point there is plenty of aggro control.

I go back to my adage... If I'm not the Tank, then I follow the tank.

[WuTang]

Can anyone tell me if the sword effects in Fiery Melee can be switched to "fists" like Stone Melee can?

[Erratic1]

I run a lot of Positions (so many I remind people of the groups unseen to the left and right of that door and the ambushes in the penultimate mission). Those groups being left have less to do with having or lacking Taunt than rushing without thinking. Granted, Taunt would allow you to pick up one of those groups presuming it wasn't wasted on the group containing Ulcer.

 

Posi 1 can be joined at level 8, before Taunt is available. Posi 2 can be joined at level 11, which given Taunt comes at level 10, means it might not yet have been taken in lieu of key offense and defense powers. The earliest I would expect a Tanker to have Taunt would be in their 20s.  There are certainly enough power slots that working Taunt in is a  easy and just a matter of when.

 

What bothers me are those who treat it as their mandatory opening at range...particularly when I am standing near them on a squishy character, as I dislike AoE responses hitting me because the Tanker decided to unnecessarily range pull with Taunt. 

[Without_Pause]

I've used Taunt while soloing just so I could peel off a more problematic mob. Sometimes even if the whole mob comes, it comes in a more strung out form which makes it easier by default. 

[Psyonico]

1 hour ago, WuTang said:

Can anyone tell me if the sword effects in Fiery Melee can be switched to "fists" like Stone Melee can?

They cannot, but you can choose between 2 different swords.

[Erratic1]

I would recommend Taunt to someone who has never tanked before because it is a useful tool and it is probably better for all involved to learn to not use it while you have it as a fallback tool.

[tidge]

6 hours ago, Erratic1 said:

Posi 1 can be joined at level 8, before Taunt is available. Posi 2 can be joined at level 11, which given Taunt comes at level 10, means it might not yet have been taken in lieu of key offense and defense powers.

 

If  a character is exemplared, and the TF is run by a higher level player, there is more opportunity to have picked Taunt for those TFs.

 

If a character is running a true-level Tanker at the minimum for Posi 1 or 2, that character is unlikely to have the slots or enhancements to handle the aggro of a room without Taunt.

[biostem]

8 minutes ago, tidge said:

If a character is running a true-level Tanker at the minimum for Posi 1 or 2, that character is unlikely to have the slots or enhancements to handle the aggro of a room without Taunt.

I mean, both tankers and brutes have a taunt effect baked into their regular attacks, and, perhaps, a team with such low-level characters present shouldn't be trying to take on an entire room full of multiple spawns, at once...

[Erratic1]

28 minutes ago, tidge said:

If a character is running a true-level Tanker at the minimum for Posi 1 or 2, that character is unlikely to have the slots or enhancements to handle the aggro of a room without Taunt.

 

While true, it is also not likely to be necessary as everyone is pretty survivable against what is being fought at unless difficulty has been turned up.

[tidge]

27 minutes ago, biostem said:

I mean, both tankers and brutes have a taunt effect baked into their regular attacks, and, perhaps, a team with such low-level characters present shouldn't be trying to take on an entire room full of multiple spawns, at once...

 

Punchvoke is a thing, but at low levels, those attacks aren't going to be super effective (fewer slots, less likely to have set bonuses, smaller enhancement values).

 

EDIT: If we are talking about characters that are exemplared down and also have a bunch of set bonuses... that is not the point I was raising when I first mentioned Posi 2 and Synapse. Even being exemplared down such that a character has more rows of inspirations makes more of a difference than any one player on a low level TF.

Edited December 4 by tidge