Questions about a Rad/SS Tanker...

[biostem]

In all the years I've played CoH, I've never actually leveled up a character using super strength.  I very much like radiation armor, so I thought it'd pair well with SS.  I'm skipping jab and most likely going to take boxing, tough, weave, and maybe dip into the leadership pool.  Any advice you have for this particular pairing, (SS in particular, since I already have experience with rad armor).  I'm working off of the assumption that, even with the significant damage debuff when rage crashes, I'll still be able to maintain aggro via taunt and punchvoke,  Thanks for your input and cheers!

[Spaghetti Betty]

Definitely lean all in on procs, and consider damaging options outside of Super Strength itself. Rage is going to massively inflate the damage and accuracy of all of your attacks, so keep that in mind!

 

Some popular options are Cross Punch and Epic attacks like Gloom or a Hold of some sort.

 

Skippables in Super Strength are Jab, Hurl, and Hand Clap. You don't *need* Hand Clap, but it is nice if you have an extra pick and want some kind of soft mitigation.

 

Load up on FF procs for sure!

[Gobbledigook]

Some build defense in and others forego defense and just build resists. The defense you build will not have DDR and Rage crash will lower it also, so it can easily be stripped. Worth thinking about when building.

 

Procs work well with Rad/SS.

 

Pool/epic powers work well with SS.

[PLVRIZR]

Paging @Zect to critique this one:

ATMSMSHR v2.0 - Tanker (Radiation Armor - Super Strength).mbd

[biostem]

11 minutes ago, PLVRIZR said:

critique this one

Don't have access to Mids ATM.  Could you give me the highlights?

Edited December 18, 2024 by biostem

[Warshades]

This is the build I use for rad/ss.

 

Heavily proc'd, can maintain perma hasten if constantly attacking with FF procs and ageless. Has 100% recharge debuff resist. Has decent resist numbers.

 

I do recommend making binds or macros to combine/use any small/medium/large insps into purples. You don't need them against all mobs when rage crash happens, but definitely helps against some.

Tanker (Radiation Armor - Super Strength) 5.mbd

[Zect]

12 hours ago, PLVRIZR said:

Paging @Zect to critique this one:

 

The good:

• 100% slow res
• No deceptive shit like claiming capped resists with meltdown at 19% uptime toggled on

The bad:

• Low rech (113.8%)
• Resists (strongly recommended to close the neg hole; nictus, BP are major endgame enemy groups)
• Some puzzling slotting - endrdx in rad therapy? Aegis when you haven't maxed out on impervium armor procs?? Botz??? I want to hear the reasoning behind the last one.
• Half-hearted defense slotting - I see what you're going for with the diamagnetic and -tohit from beta decay, but from experience the amounts you can muster are unlikely to matter against truly dangerous critters, where res and absorbs alone do not cut it. Def is good if you can get it from a parry set (eg storm kick), barrier, purple insps, or ally buffs, because these offer huge amounts of def for relatively few build resources. It's less hot if you need to contort your build to get it.
• Wrong alpha - nerve doesn't boost any of the stats you want (rech) or can get easily (res) so it provides bad value
• I really dislike telling people to pick different epic powers since it is often a matter of playfeel/concept, but taking fire mastery and then skipping fireball is like building a mansion then deciding not to buy a roof to go with it.

Build goals and breakpoints for building a rad/ss:

• 90% SLENF res with 1 stack of ATO1 proc. It's 1 stack because if res is your primary mit layer you do not want to sit there spamming jab to try and keep up 2 stacks.
• 0% def - putting it here to make it clear. You will just let mobs hit you 100% of the time. Trust me, it's fine. If you really feel unsafe, take barrier. Or eat insps. Or use knockdowns, or just kill more stuff.
• Double-stacked rage (~65s cooldown on rage; this lets it come off cooldown just as each crash is ending)
• 85%-100% slow res
• As much damage as possible
• End, lots and lots of it. Double-rage SS gobbles blue like nothing.

Key concepts:

• Recommended alpha: resilient core paragon. Resilient has good value on res tankers because they have high res values to begin with. This will nearly singlehandedly meet your resistance needs enabling you to avoid devoting set bonuses to res. Building for resistance with set bonuses is extremely slot-inefficient because res set bonuses are tiny (the tradeoff being that res is far more reliable mitigation than def).
  • This also buffs the tohit from rage. Double-stacked rage gives nearly +60% tohit. This is huge considering that base tohit vs +4 foes is only 48%. This massive tohit crushes enemy def bonuses and powers through enemy tohit debuffs. It saves a slot from not needing kismet +tohit. It takes care of all your acc slotting needs.
• 3-5 lotg mules for rech are recommended. You only have 2, which makes your rech very low. Again, I hate to tell people to change their pool picks but if you can stand being stealthed it's worth changing your travel power to infiltration, which takes an lotg.

This is how you might put the above advice into practice while keeping all your current power choices except trading SJ for infil.

 

 

Rage recharges in 66.55s, haste in 126s, 95% slow res.

 

Finally, you have summoned me in particular for advice. While this is flattering, you should not view me as some kind of authority on rad/SS, or builds in general. I strongly encourage you to seek out contrasting views and builds, to challenge the received wisdom, to look, compare, and try to outdo me. The pleasure and fruits of success will be all yours. (That said, good rad/SS builds all look fairly similar (differing mainly in their pool power layout, how hard they proc and where they mule the rech bonuses).)

 

 

 

 

Edited December 18, 2024 by Zect

[SeraphimKensai]

Although I didn't make a Rad/SS Tank, my favorite Brute to play is my SS/Rad. I fully support the idea of leaning into padding resistance and capping slow resistances.

 

My own Brute version of this also rotates: RoP, Demonic, Meltdown, and Melee Core, which has served me very well.

 

Rad/SS as a tank, would give you the opportunity to get your resistance levels where you need them with better slot efficiency, and allow a more robust proc load.

 

I went with the Brute version essentially on a lark to add Fury with Double Stacked Rage as Gauntlet doesn't benefit the aoe radius of Foot Stomp.

 

Overall both ATs excel with these power sets.

[PLVRIZR]

On 12/18/2024 at 7:16 AM, Zect said:

 

The good:

• 100% slow res
• No deceptive shit like claiming capped resists with meltdown at 19% uptime toggled on

The bad:

• Low rech (113.8%)
• Resists (strongly recommended to close the neg hole; nictus, BP are major endgame enemy groups)
• Some puzzling slotting - endrdx in rad therapy? Aegis when you haven't maxed out on impervium armor procs?? Botz??? I want to hear the reasoning behind the last one.
• Half-hearted defense slotting - I see what you're going for with the diamagnetic and -tohit from beta decay, but from experience the amounts you can muster are unlikely to matter against truly dangerous critters, where res and absorbs alone do not cut it. Def is good if you can get it from a parry set (eg storm kick), barrier, purple insps, or ally buffs, because these offer huge amounts of def for relatively few build resources. It's less hot if you need to contort your build to get it.
• Wrong alpha - nerve doesn't boost any of the stats you want (rech) or can get easily (res) so it provides bad value
• I really dislike telling people to pick different epic powers since it is often a matter of playfeel/concept, but taking fire mastery and then skipping fireball is like building a mansion then deciding not to buy a roof to go with it.

 

Key concepts:

• Recommended alpha: resilient core paragon. Resilient has good value on res tankers because they have high res values to begin with.
• 3-5 lotg mules for rech are recommended. You only have 2, which makes your rech very low. Again, I hate to tell people to change their pool picks but if you can stand being stealthed it's worth changing your travel power to infiltration, which takes an lotg.

Finally, you have summoned me in particular for advice. While this is flattering, you should not view me as some kind of authority on rad/SS, or builds in general.

Thanks for the feedback!  As always, there are some picks due to theme or utility...not the absolute min/max for 4* content.

 

-Rech is without Hasten.  The originally posted Mids file didn't have +5 IOs (which are in game), so those should be a wash and nearly perma.

-EndRx in Rad Therapy is because this is a leveling build and it was a huge end drain.  Also, ToE end refill doesn't proc like it used to...so it's great when it fires, but when it doesn't, end is a big issue...as you point out.

-Defense slotting isn't "half hearted", because it isn't hearted, at all.  Those are just organic effects of other slotting.  No specific defense targeted.

-BotZ because 10 pts of KB protection just doesn't cut it with the new updates...especially the FREEM! from Council.  14 (with BotZ) keeps you on your feet for everything but the unresistable stuff (like the Crimson Prototype).  Tanks of any armor should never be on their backs (or hibernating, for that matter...personal opinion).

-The Aegis and Impervium psi uniques are both there.  Did you miss that fact?

-Nerve for to-hit.  Even with double Rage, hitting is paramount.  Having said that, I would seriously reconsider Resilient, instead.  I use Meltdown constantly, but might be beneficial to have Resilient, perma.

-Fireball?  Yeah, no.  This is a tank, not brute or blaster.  Having the absorb unique (from Entomb - in Char)...along with a nice ST hold and an amazing AOE debuff in Melt Armor (also adding the juicy Achilles proc) far outweighs the damage from Fireball...especially in general or all-tank gameplay.  Your "mansion" analogy isn't pertinent, with this build philosphy.

-SJ for function and concept - not negotiable.

 

Your posted template misses several key pieces, like Power Transfer +HP (x2) and Panacea +HP...they do add up.

 

You were summoned and responded.  Appreciate that....but outdo you?  LOL, no-one can out do you, because your opinion is (and should be) the best for you.

 

 

Edited December 19, 2024 by PLVRIZR
spelling

[Grimm2]

2 hours ago, PLVRIZR said:

-The Aegis and Impervium psi uniques are both there.  Did you miss that fact?

I haven't opened the build, so maybe about to insert foot in mouth .. But the Impervium proc is not unique, and can be stacked up to the Rule of 5.

[Zect]

11 hours ago, PLVRIZR said:

-Rech is without Hasten. 

 

Don't worry, because I toggled it on to judge your build; in my post, I even quoted the correct amount of rech you have with hasten (113.8%).

 

Replacing all the rech IO's in your build with +5's, your hasten recharges in 145s (vs 129s with my modifications above). Your rage recharges in 89s (vs 66.55s with my modifications above). You actually have what I might call 1.5-rage instead of double-rage.

 

It will actually be even less than that in practice, since hasten is not close to perma, so for a substantial amount of time you're going to have less rech than mids inidcates.

 

11 hours ago, PLVRIZR said:

EndRx in Rad Therapy is because this is a leveling build and it was a huge end drain.  Also, ToE end refill doesn't proc like it used to...so it's great when it fires, but when it doesn't, end is a big issue...as you point out.

 

So a +5, level 50 endrdx saves about 2.6 end per use of the power. I think it's fair to say that is not a significant difference. As for toe, you are using rad therapy in a crowd, are you? Getting the proc to roll on lots of targets each time is how you abuse it. I'm sorry if I sound like I'm talking down to you and telling you things you already know, but there are a lot of misconceptions in your post so I'm trying to be very thorough.

 

11 hours ago, PLVRIZR said:

Defense slotting isn't "half hearted", because it isn't hearted, at all.  Those are just organic effects of other slotting.  No specific defense targeted.

 

As I stated, small amounts of defense aren't significant, at least not in the situations where your res and absorbs are not sufficient (which I should clarify are already uncommon to begin with). This presents an opportunity to scrounge up some slots by removing things like your GA+3 def. This is why I stated 0% def to all in build goals.

 

Of course, feel free to keep them if you prefer, but I can tell you that any effect is more psychological than material. A placebo bonus, if you will.

 

11 hours ago, PLVRIZR said:

BotZ because 10 pts of KB protection just doesn't cut it with the new updates...especially the FREEM! from Council. 

 

Have you actually been knocked back without it?

 

Rad armor is among the (majority of) armor sets that have 10000% KU, KB res in its toggles in addition to -KB. This resistance further reduces incoming KB magnitude before applying -KB. In general you should not be knocked back by resistible knockback at all. If things are knocking you back, that means they either have an irresistible KB or you detoggled your -kb.

 

I am traveling and without any of the machines I usually play from, so I'm unable to run tests; but if anyone has contradicting info, please do post it. I haven't killed a lot of revamped council, so I'm interested in the results.

 

11 hours ago, PLVRIZR said:

Nerve for to-hit.  Even with double Rage, hitting is paramount.  Having said that, I would seriously reconsider Resilient, instead.  I use Meltdown constantly, but might be beneficial to have Resilient, perma.

 

The purple sets in my example add +45% global acc (54% with the 5x adjusted targeting) that fully ignores ED. That's your nerve core paragon right there, without taking up the alpha slot.

 

Resilient on its own is a good choice as I demonstrate, however, what I'm also trying to get across is the synergy of 1) resilient replacing res set bonuses which allows us to 2) slot purples and invest heavily in recharge, which then 3) gives us higher tohit and more procs in addition to resists, thus resulting in 4) greater defensive and offensive power.

 

11 hours ago, PLVRIZR said:

Your posted template misses several key pieces, like Power Transfer +HP (x2) and Panacea +HP...they do add up.

 

There is a panacea in health, though you can't see it in the image.

 

PT is optional on sets with strong self-sustain like rad. It is better on sets that have a lot of mit but are poor on sustain, like invuln and shield. Nevertheless, I do know many people like them which is why I have graciously included unspent slots for you to place them if you desire. I think of everything.

 

11 hours ago, PLVRIZR said:

Fireball?  Yeah, no.  This is a tank, not brute or blaster.  Having the absorb unique (from Entomb - in Char)...along with a nice ST hold and an amazing AOE debuff in Melt Armor (also adding the juicy Achilles proc) far outweighs the damage from Fireball...especially in general or all-tank gameplay.  Your "mansion" analogy isn't pertinent, with this build philosphy.

 

Comparing the benefits of melt armor and char to fireball is irrelevant, since usually these are taken along with fireball, so it's not an either-or situation. It seems what you're saying is that you're satisfied with the bonuses offered by char and melt armor, and do not want to invest in fireball. To me, that's fine; while there are optimal epic power choices, pools and epics are often a matter of playfeel so you have to pick what you like.

 

Nevertheless, you are underestimating the value of fireball. The typical fireball slotting, 2x frozen blast 3x damage procs, is a 16 target, 22.5 foot radius (yes it benefits from gauntlet, a little testing with evenly spaced enemies such as cimerorans on the wall will reveal this), ~250 damage aoe while also muling a 15% slow resist bonus. You can compensate if you proc out your rad therapy though which still gives you 3 aoe nukes.

 

As for "This is a tank, not brute or blaster", I've noticed that inexperienced players - especially tank players - tend to slant defensively in terms of build design, not knowing what they can handle. However, it can be worth to ask "Is it possible to build a tank that is also a brute or blaster?" because not only do offense and defense work in synergy the techniques and play skills learned can be very helpful in optimizing for defense as well, as I have demonstrated in my last post.

 

11 hours ago, PLVRIZR said:

LOL, no-one can out do you, because your opinion is (and should be) the best for you.

 

It's also the best for you! Look, I wouldn't bother offering it if I didn't think it was materially better than what you're currently doing. Frankly, it's better if we can all cut the "oh, everything's an opinion" bullshit. Some things are a matter of playstyle, others are up to personal judgment, but there's plenty in build design that is objective, too - like 113.8% global rech being nowhere near a wash with 158.8%.

 

Edited December 20, 2024 by Zect

[Onlyasandwich]

5 hours ago, Zect said:

The typical fireball slotting, 2x frozen blast 3x damage procs

 

If one is of a more defensive slant, you could even add the Ragnarok KD proc! I'll often do this on my tankers when I have slots to spare. Adding 72% chance for KD to a 16 target power is probably more mitigation than any absorb or mag 3 hold.

 

 

Edited December 20, 2024 by Onlyasandwich

[Uncle Shags]

Here's my Rad/SS story.

 

I've made lots of tanks but never a rad armor.  Curiousity strikes.  So I got on mids, cranked out a pretty fancy build based on Zect's template above and got on the test server.

 

The damage is amazing.  I did some quick, ballpark tests on Cinemora wall groups of 2 bosses and a big pack of minions.  My tanky Inv/SS clears them in about 80s.  My test server tricked out max damage Inv/SS does it in 45s.  Rad/SS procbomber does it in 30s or less.  I was really impressed.

 

But then I went to go try out some durability.  This is where I think I ran into an issue that may be a deal breaker for me.  I got a 54x8 radio carnie mission and gathered multiple groups at once.  The build I made has 65% psi resist.  I quickly figured out this isn't a stand there and soak up damage type of build - you've got to end it quick with all that extra damage you have.  I can deal with that.  Fast and furious!  It worked, for a little while...  But the real issue was stacks of mezz.  I was sent to the hospital multiple times after stacked holds broke through Fallout Shelter which led to an immediate melting.  I respecced and added a few 6th slots in purple sets to get more Mez resist (got it to 108%) but it didn't seem to make a difference.

 

I think it's an issue of pure resistance tanking with no defense?  Everything hits, so mez and  debuffs stack.  I looked at my Invuln tank and it has the exact same status protection and resistance, but he never gets held.  The only difference I can think of is no defense.  All of the other tanks I've ever built had at least some defense.  Is this a risk of pure resistance tanking?

 

Now granted, I was purposely gathering as many carnies as I could, and was being targeted by multiple dark ring mistresses and master illusionists at once.  But hey, that's not that unrealistic.  And IMO isn't that what a tank is for?  At least one version of tank, I guess - the "soak up the hits for the team no matter what" version.

 

Maybe this is a known issue and I'd just not heard of it before?  Is this a thing?  How do you deal with it?  Breakfrees?  Clarion?  Avoiding mezzers? 

Edited January 18 by Uncle Shags
Retested and changed my wall groups numbers. I'm a chronic exagerator...

[Sovera]

On 1/18/2025 at 3:48 AM, Uncle Shags said:

Here's my Rad/SS story.

 

I've made lots of tanks but never a rad armor.  Curiousity strikes.  So I got on mids, cranked out a pretty fancy build based on Zect's template above and got on the test server.

 

The damage is amazing.  I did some quick, ballpark tests on Cinemora wall groups of 2 bosses and a big pack of minions.  My tanky Inv/SS clears them in about 80s.  My test server tricked out max damage Inv/SS does it in 45s.  Rad/SS procbomber does it in 30s or less.  I was really impressed.

 

But then I went to go try out some durability.  This is where I think I ran into an issue that may be a deal breaker for me.  I got a 54x8 radio carnie mission and gathered multiple groups at once.  The build I made has 65% psi resist.  I quickly figured out this isn't a stand there and soak up damage type of build - you've got to end it quick with all that extra damage you have.  I can deal with that.  Fast and furious!  It worked, for a little while...  But the real issue was stacks of mezz.  I was sent to the hospital multiple times after stacked holds broke through Fallout Shelter which led to an immediate melting.  I respecced and added a few 6th slots in purple sets to get more Mez resist (got it to 108%) but it didn't seem to make a difference.

 

I think it's an issue of pure resistance tanking with no defense?  Everything hits, so mez and  debuffs stack.  I looked at my Invuln tank and it has the exact same status protection and resistance, but he never gets held.  The only difference I can think of is no defense.  All of the other tanks I've ever built had at least some defense.  Is this a risk of pure resistance tanking?

 

Now granted, I was purposely gathering as many carnies as I could, and was being targeted by multiple dark ring mistresses and master illusionists at once.  But hey, that's not that unrealistic.  And IMO isn't that what a tank is for?  At least one version of tank, I guess - the "soak up the hits for the team no matter what" version.

 

Maybe this is a known issue and I'd just not heard of it before?  Is this a thing?  How do you deal with it?  Breakfrees?  Clarion?  Avoiding mezzers? 

Resistance does get shafted on anything that stacks debuffs. I have TALES of trying to fight Vampyr and whiffing endlessly if I didn't finish the fight early. Now, that said, you were pushing the envelope and the envelope pushed back. If you said you had these problems when pulling one group I'd say your build might need a tweak. But trying to pull multiple groups? Out of a problematic faction like Carnies? Council they ain't.

That works if you're in a team and everyone is pitching in with buffs, debuffs, and raw damage to finish things quickly.

Now if you want to try changing some things you can add S/L defense. Despite building S/L defense being poopooed by some because 'defense debuff will strip those defenses immediately' (which is correct) there are a heap ton of factions with problematic debuffs that do NOT defense debuff, and whose attacks have S/L components which makes the defense able to deflect them.

 

Anecdote, but I remember doing Croatoa and being confused on why my Fire Armor was being knocked around so much since it seldom happened even while leveling on other Fire Armor characters. Then I realized that even while leveling I was usually always building up S/L alongside the rest, but with that character who was doing a challenge of not using my stored IOs it only relied on the -KB IO. That solitary -KB was enough on other characters, but, wasn't cutting it all by itself.


Now all of this said if you're still pulling multiple groups of problematic factions then things will get hairy. Even my Stone Armor has died to Praetorean bots because I pulled multiples. Times like those it's best to retreat, regroup, and consider using an inspiration before starting.

Edited February 4 by Sovera

[Maelwys]

Urgh. Flashbacks to my non-SR Scrappers earning their debt badges under the old when-you-get-mezzed-all-your-toggles-drop-including-mez-protection system.

At least these days you'll not have to retoggle most of your armors afterwards, and whilst you're mezzed you keep a basic level of mez protection (AFAIK most of the toggle-CC-protection abilities only get their KB protection component cancelled; but their Held/Stunned/Sleep/Immobilized protection component stays active...)

[Warshades]

On 1/17/2025 at 10:48 PM, Uncle Shags said:

 

But then I went to go try out some durability.  This is where I think I ran into an issue that may be a deal breaker for me.  I got a 54x8 radio carnie mission and gathered multiple groups at once.  The build I made has 65% psi resist.  I quickly figured out this isn't a stand there and soak up damage type of build - you've got to end it quick with all that extra damage you have.  I can deal with that.  Fast and furious!  It worked, for a little while...  But the real issue was stacks of mezz.  I was sent to the hospital multiple times after stacked holds broke through Fallout Shelter which led to an immediate melting.  I respecced and added a few 6th slots in purple sets to get more Mez resist (got it to 108%) but it didn't seem to make a difference.

 

I will add that Carnies are a bit of an anthises to what rad/ss wants to do. You are not a stand in the middle and soak up damage tanker, you are a proc bomber that kills enemies quickly so they don't get a chance to deal a lot of damage for you to soak up. Carnies ability to go intangible can make it difficult for you to mass murder the illusionists, which is partly what can lead to stacked mezzes when you're trying to deal with multiple groups.

 

I don't know what your playstyle is, but I personally don't herd groups with my rad/ss. Partially because I skipped taunt and the other part is that all the AoEs have fairly quick recharges where everything (other than GZ) is usually up and recharged between groups. Rather than herding groups together (and even when you do, there is still a target hit cap), I prefer to just steam roll from one group to the next. This also helps the other issue with resist based tankers in avoiding excessive debuff stacks and allowing debuffs to expire as you go from group to group.

[Gobbledygook]

I'm not going to summon anyone, but thank you both, Zect and Plvrizr.

I now have a template for earning the inf for my Rad/SS. He's been setting at 48 with just generic IO's for close to a year.

I first rolled him because that was the new king of farming back then.

I do have a question, though, as I come for playing mostly Brutes and Scrappers.

How is the ST damage? When I solo AV's, I normally do them set at +2. I'm fine with with doing them at +0 or +1.

 

[Spaghetti Betty]

15 minutes ago, Gobbledygook said:

I'm not going to summon anyone, but thank you both, Zect and Plvrizr.

I now have a template for earning the inf for my Rad/SS. He's been setting at 48 with just generic IO's for close to a year.

I first rolled him because that was the new king of farming back then.

I do have a question, though, as I come for playing mostly Brutes and Scrappers.

How is the ST damage? When I solo AV's, I normally do them set at +2. I'm fine with with doing them at +0 or +1.

 

With an optimized rotation, the ST damage is pretty great! If you are running something like Haymaker -> Cross Punch -> KO Blow/(Proc'd)Epic Hold, you will have very consistent DPS against a big body. Don't forget that Rad Therapy deals -Regen, which is effective DPS against an AV!

 

That being said, the main allure of Rad/SS is it's ability to AoE like a Blaster while tanking like a Tanker, and since 97% of fights in the game are against trash mobs, this makes it really stand out!