Empathy power set in the modern City of Heroes

[tidge]

24 minutes ago, Shin Magmus said:

     Healing is not, and never has been, damage mitigation.  If you have 600 Healers all lined up in a row, all ready to heal, but the enemy deals a big attack and oneshots everyone... you all die because you lacked sufficient damage mitigation: now you have 600 dead Healers.

 

Always look on the bright side of combat.

 

[Maelwys]

18 minutes ago, Troo said:

 

"reduce the amount of damage suffered"

 

This is where we all go, "oh, I get it now". We all learned these things at some point. There was a point I was unaware 'tactics' could count as damage mitigation.

Condescension notwithstanding; I'm afraid not.

To illustrate; I refer you to my earlier post: 

 

2 hours ago, Maelwys said:

Let's try putting this another way...
Someone takes a swing at your face. You see the punch coming.
Do you: (a) Block it (b) Dodge it (c) Just take it like a chump but put an Ice Pack on afterwards?

In scenario (c) you would still SUFFER THE FULL (UNREDUCED) AMOUNT OF DAMAGE.

You would just recover from it a bit faster than someone with no Ice Pack.

And that is the problem with "healing" in CoX. Healing in this game SUCKS in comparison to proper damage mitigation like Defense and Resistance buffs (and to a lesser extent; +Absorb and +MaxHP) because it does not stop you from dying to big hits of "spike damage". It just stops you from dying to lots of smaller hits of damage that are spread out over a long period of time - "chip damage" - which by its very nature is not going to kill you immediately.

Healing can certainly be useful; but it does not reduce the damage someone takes. It is a reactionary recovery measure taken after a non-lethal amount of damage has already been applied to someone's healthbar. Which brings up another problem: often the person damaged will act faster than the "healer" and use their own recovery measures.
 

Edited February 13 by Maelwys

[JJDrakken]

43 minutes ago, Shin Magmus said:

     This thread isn't supposed to be a basic English class about teaching definitions. Getting dragged into arguments with people (who are blatantly wrong) is the beginning of how all of these threads get locked.  GM GooglyMoogly is here, unseen, in the shadows.  You don't see him but he sees us all; he is watching, waiting for someone to slip up.

 

     Healing is not, and never has been, damage mitigation.  If you have 600 Healers all lined up in a row, all ready to heal, but the enemy deals a big attack and oneshots everyone... you all die because you lacked sufficient damage mitigation: now you have 600 dead Healers.  Now if the same scenario happens with 2 Healers but 598 Buffers, who boost the team's Defense and Resistance up massively: people survive.  The same attack hits your party but the damage is reduced and it also outright misses some of you, which gives the 2 Healers time to heal everyone back up to full.  The difference in these examples should be obvious.

 

<> Resistance and Defense are damage mitigation, as are debuffs to enemy stats that reduce their Damage and Tohit.

 

<> Max HP and Absorb are a damage buffer, they don't technically mitigate damage but they increase the amount of time you will survive, and therefore the time you have to react.  Max HP also multiplies Regeneration.

 

<> Healing and Regeneration are just health restoration and nothing more.  Regeneration is often stronger because it is multiplied by Max HP increases, and you can build to push both these stats very high.

 

Your still wrong.  I'm sure all game devs, TTRPG makers, story writers, show writers, novelists, comic writers, etc.. of the Genre would love to chat with you, to let you know your wrong. Then to double down non stop about it, cuz you are wrong. 

 

Reminds me of American politics.

[Maelwys]

18 minutes ago, tidge said:

 

Always look on the bright side of combat.

 

Edited February 13 by Maelwys

[JJDrakken]

End of the day, it's been established since forever in addendum.  By humans before us writing and building lore, story, etc.. It's been well established.

 

You can say it's not cuz you don't like that it is or you feel it shouldn't be. 

 

So saying it's not cuz of your emotions and not actual established lore & logic.  -shrugs-

 

But enough of our Echo Chamber finger pointing,  I got a D&D Game to prep for tonight. Session 2 of CoH Players who are new to D&D. (Being streamed on Twitch again by KosmicFire90)  Yes, I still got a good few hours away(830 Est start time).

But I gotta make sure I don't have 2 to many goblins, the Life Cleric is there to Mitigate the damage, but you know spell slots ...

 

-winks-

Edited February 13 by JJDrakken

[Troo]

4 minutes ago, Maelwys said:

Do you: (a) Block it (b) Dodge it (c) Just take it like a chump but put an Ice Pack on afterwards?

 

Hey, no condensation intended. Wait, condescension, I meant condescension.

 

Folks disagree, no problem. Folks are not disagreeing with me. Folks are disagreeing with the game and it's designers.

 

I am a Regeneration lifer. 

If you asked me how it goes playing regen I might say "You're gonna get hit... a lot! You're gonna need a plan to mitigate the inevitable damage and debuffs."

• Tactics are a way to "reduce the amount of damage suffered" before it happens.
• Regeneration and Healing are ways to "reduce the amount of damage suffered" after it happens.

 

 

[Maelwys]

6 minutes ago, JJDrakken said:

the Life Cleric is there to Mitigate the damage, but you know spell slots ...

Try "Bless" or "Shield of Faith" instead and if anything gets past tell 'em to take a short rest and use their hit dice to recover like proper adventurers 😛
(Healing Word/Cure Wounds certainly has its place... to pick someone up from unconsciousness. Just don't do that in the initiative order right before the enemy. Heh...)
 

Edited February 13 by Maelwys

[JJDrakken]

2 minutes ago, Maelwys said:

Try "Bless" or "Armor of Faith" instead and if anything gets past tell 'em to take a short rest and use their hit dice to recover like proper adventurers 😛
(Healing Word certainly has its place... to pick someone up from unconsciousness. Just don't do that in the initiative order right before the enemy. Heh...)

 

I nudge them in that direction.  But all 4 are brand spanking new to D&D.  We have 5th character made, that no one showed for.  Can't find anyone willing to buy Tabletop Simulator and then 830-1130pm East on a Thursday usually a deal breaker as well for that 5th.

 

But I try let them learn at their own pace and have fun.  I'll drop hints when I feel it would be best, etc..  Been DM/GMing for 36 years now.

Edited February 13 by JJDrakken

[Shin Magmus]

23 minutes ago, Maelwys said:

     These images are sending me.  Fortunately, I play good powersets so I have Mitigation against Joke Damage.

[Maelwys]

14 minutes ago, JJDrakken said:

 

I nudge them in that direction.  But all 4 are brand spanking new to D&D.  We have 5th character made, that no one showed for.  Can't find anyone willing to buy Tabletop Simulator and then 830-1130pm East on a Thursday usually a deal breaker as well for that 5th.

 

But I try let them learn at their own pace and have fun.  I'll drop hints when I feel it would be best, etc..  Been DM/GMing for 36 years now.

My Tuesday night GM swapped from Roll20 to Foundry VTT shortly before I joined the game* and it's been quite successful so far. 
Few niggles with recent upgrades temporarily breaking spell macros etc; but the gameplay has been grand + much better environment than roll20.

Only 4 of us at present too (sadly our 5th has health issues and probs won't be back for a bit!) but it's a decent number + gives everyone a chance to contribute.

*2nd Feb 2021 judging by my session notes. The party had just hit Lv5 and we're currently a bit shy of Lv14. They're taking it SLOOOOOW!

[macskull]

On 2/10/2025 at 11:56 PM, MoonSheep said:

1. people don’t slot it properly or pickup powerboost

Assuming PvE here, the only set where it really makes sense to take Power Boost is Time. Otherwise it either doesn't affect enough of the kit to be worth it, or it ends up being massive overkill, or the opportunity cost of not being able to take a better epic/patron pool is too high. Looking at Empathy, Power Boost only affects the heals, Clear Mind, and Fortitude. The heals are already fine - overkill, arguably, for Absorb Pain; Clear Mind already stacks with itself and there are almost no NPC mez effects that won't be prevented by one normal application; and Fortitude is probably the best use case but you'll be able to use PB at best every other cast and every 4th cast if you were a Defender or Corruptor unfortunate enough to decide you wanted to take Energy Mastery.

 

On 2/10/2025 at 11:56 PM, MoonSheep said:

a well built empath delivered in a ‘PvP’ style can be great on speedruns - following the lead damage dealing squishy and keeping them alive during the chaos

A "PvP-style" Empathy character is very, very different because the focus there is almost entirely on healing and making sure the team has Clear Mind since ally mez protection buffs actually grant mez protection again in PvP. Those builds are not particularly useful in a PvE environment because they usually lack any real amount of offensive output and the burst damage they're built to protect against really doesn't happen. I mean, sure, they'll be useful for buffing the team, but they'll still bring less overall than any other support character would.

[MoonSheep]

4 hours ago, macskull said:

Assuming PvE here, the only set where it really makes sense to take Power Boost is Time. Otherwise it either doesn't affect enough of the kit to be worth it, or it ends up being massive overkill, or the opportunity cost of not being able to take a better epic/patron pool is too high. Looking at Empathy, Power Boost only affects the heals, Clear Mind, and Fortitude. The heals are already fine - overkill, arguably, for Absorb Pain; Clear Mind already stacks with itself and there are almost no NPC mez effects that won't be prevented by one normal application; and Fortitude is probably the best use case but you'll be able to use PB at best every other cast and every 4th cast if you were a Defender or Corruptor unfortunate enough to decide you wanted to take Energy Mastery.

 

i love powerboost on my kin - there’s times where having a powerboosted Transfusion makes a massive difference to the team, or stopping AVs running off with a powerboosted siphon speed. it’s incredible for vengeance too, a lovely +63% def for the team

 

also great for defenders with elec secondary for sweet end drains

 

the soul mastery version of powerboost recharges in half the time of energy master

[Maelwys]

6 hours ago, macskull said:

Assuming PvE here, the only set where it really makes sense to take Power Boost is Time. Otherwise it either doesn't affect enough of the kit to be worth it, or it ends up being massive overkill, or the opportunity cost of not being able to take a better epic/patron pool is too high. Looking at Empathy, Power Boost only affects the heals, Clear Mind, and Fortitude. The heals are already fine - overkill, arguably, for Absorb Pain; Clear Mind already stacks with itself and there are almost no NPC mez effects that won't be prevented by one normal application; and Fortitude is probably the best use case but you'll be able to use PB at best every other cast and every 4th cast if you were a Defender or Corruptor unfortunate enough to decide you wanted to take Energy Mastery.

Personally I definitely found Powerboosted Fortitudes to be worth it back when I was playing an Illusion/Empath Controller on Live.
That toon's PB Cycle time was ~29.5s which meant that it could keep a PB'ed Fort on up to four people constantly plus a non-PB'ed fort on the other three; for +31.87% Defense buffage on the squishier folk instead of +18.04%. Plus it affected Group Invisibility too; for another constant +5.26% Defense to everyone. Admittedly I was PUGing quite often so the more mitigation I could throw on everyone the better; and very few players back then were T4'ed up... but I'd still shy away from skipping it if I were to reroll that toon today.

The other obvious potential use case is Forcefield. On a Defender a case could definitely be made that the extra +Def from PB is overkill unless they're running Incarnate content. But on a Controller/Corruptor/MM? I've got a (admittedly seldom played!) Demons/FF MM. PB brings her pets' defenses from a constant [17.68%+12.01%+10%=39.69%] to a constant [25.06%+12.01%+10%=47.07%] so technically 2.07% of that is "overkill" on the pets outside of defense debuffs... but any player character teammates would still be sitting at a mere +37.07% defense. Which still leaves some room for the usual culprits like CJ/Maneuvers/+3%DefGlobals and Barrier.

I do agree on the "being locked into a particular epic/patron pool" thing though. MMs probably have it easier since Mace Mastery meshes better with other +Def Buffs; but locking Controllers into Energy Mastery and Defenders/Corruptors to Soul (or Energy if you're a total masochist) can be rather annoying...

 

Edited February 14 by Maelwys

[Shin Magmus]

15 minutes ago, Maelwys said:

Personally I definitely found Powerboosted Fortitudes to be worth it back when I was playing an Illusion/Empath Controller on Live.
That toon's PB Cycle time was ~29.5s which meant that it could keep a PB'ed Fort on up to four people constantly plus a non-PB'ed fort on the other three; for +31.87% Defense buffage on the squishier folk instead of +18.04%. Plus it affected Group Invisibility too; for another constant +5.26% Defense to everyone. Admittedly I was PUGing quite often so the more mitigation I could throw on everyone the better; and very few players back then were T4'ed up... but I'd still shy away from skipping it if I were to reroll that toon today.

     If Empathy simply gets some long overdue buffs/reworks, and especially if Fortitude is turned into an AoE (but with lower numbers) to be truly analogous to Farsight and World of Pain, then Power Boost goes from "pretty good" to "mandatory".  The option to click PB then Fort everyone... including yourself, is the kind of thing that would rejuvenate Empathy and bring it up out of the dumpster tier.