Remove Time Sinks from the game

[DrRocket]

I get it, that during the live days of this game, there was a need to have time sinks to give players the illusion that the mission is longer or bigger, the maps bigger and what not.

 

Yet today, we play the game willingly, and it is free too (but I am happy to contribute when I can), so there is no need for time sinks, they are irrelevant for the contemporary player seeking to have a good time.

 

So why not remove them, little by little?

 

Time sinks that come into mind is making players traveling across zones, when really it is not needed. I remember doing an SF, where it sent you to another zone, but the pointer sent me to a boat in my zone, did the mission at the other zone and when finished we returned to the home zone. Thus the feel of going elsewhere was there, but the time sink of the pointless travel was not there, which I felt was great.

 

Another time sinks are the kill all mobs, this was a problem even during live days. It was resolved by making them a 90% kill of the mobs, perhaps this can be re-instated. Of course if the players want to stay in the mission, despite that the mission has been completed, and do kill all the mobs in order to gain experience its their choice. Frankly, I like choice.

 

Another time sink is kill the boss and his guards, but it becomes a near kill all when the boss is placed in a mega room (which often the room is about 80% of the map) because you have to kill all the mobs in the room, not the mobs that were part of the boss's team. Perhaps killing the boss and his immediate guards would be a fix to this time sink. Makes me think, when you rescue the councilman in Manticore you defeat the mobs only in the room where the councilman was at, and not all the mobs in the mega-room.

 

Another type of time sink is when mobs that have Moment of Glory which I refer to "way too long moment of boredom" really needs to go , the game needs to be fluid and able to keep a good fun pace, without "commercial interruptions"

 

Another insidious time sink is running mobs, really is this needed at all? Running mobs actually makes the game boring and tedium, not more fun.

 

I am sure there are other time sinks, feel free to add to this list, but also include with your nomination what you would think the fix would be.

 

I will not deny, the game as is is fun, but it can be improved and be made even greater, and much more fun which is the intent of this post.

 

Please try not to propose work arounds, work arounds are band aids at best and not a fix, but if provided they could be informative and thus welcome if provided with good heart

 

Perhaps those that disagree with the removal of time sinks, could start another threat asking for the addition of time sinks?

 

Regards 

 

[Rudra]

15 hours ago, DrRocket said:

 

Yet today, we play the game willingly,

So you think we were forced to play back on Live? Everyone had a taskmaster or what not ensuring we paid our monthly subscription fees (before they went away) and sat at our desks and toiled away?

 

15 hours ago, DrRocket said:

and it is free too

The game went free to play back on Live. Well before the sunset. It still had micro-transactions for various new releases, but the game was very much free.

 

15 hours ago, DrRocket said:

Time sinks that come into mind is making players traveling across zones, when really it is not needed.

The zone travelling wasn't a time sink. The devs put a lot of effort into the zones. And our missions would send us across the zones and to other zones so we could see the zones and enjoy what the devs provided us rather than just all camp in a tiny area cycling missions like many do in AE now.

 

15 hours ago, DrRocket said:

I remember doing an SF, where it sent you to another zone, but the pointer sent me to a boat in my zone, did the mission at the other zone and when finished we returned to the home zone.

An "outdoor" mission other than street sweeping isn't going to have the player/team go to another zone. There would be no point as the mission objectives won't be available in that zone. There is a big difference between instanced "outdoor" missions and sending players to another zone.

 

15 hours ago, DrRocket said:

Another time sinks are the kill all mobs, this was a problem even during live days. It was resolved by making them a 90% kill of the mobs, perhaps this can be re-instated. Of course if the players want to stay in the mission, despite that the mission has been completed, and do kill all the mobs in order to gain experience its their choice. Frankly, I like choice.

I actually agree with you on this. Not a fan of kill alls either. Too often they occur on maps where there are hidden nooks and crannies with wandering mobs that like to wander there and effectively disappear beyond map objects.

 

15 hours ago, DrRocket said:

Another time sink is kill the boss and his guards, but it becomes a near kill all when the boss is placed in a mega room (which often the room is about 80% of the map) because you have to kill all the mobs in the room, not the mobs that were part of the boss's team. Perhaps killing the boss and his immediate guards would be a fix to this time sink. Makes me think, when you rescue the councilman in Manticore you defeat the mobs only in the room where the councilman was at, and not all the mobs in the mega-room.

This was changed to the current set up with the advent of Stalkers. I don't think you're going to get this changed.

 

15 hours ago, DrRocket said:

Another type of time sink is when mobs that have Moment of Glory which I refer to "way too long moment of boredom" really needs to go , the game needs to be fluid and able to keep a good fun pace, without "commercial interruptions"

Enemies get access to the same powers we do. ... except for Moment of Glory because mobs retained the old version rather than the new version players have.... And we can still defeat mobs with MoG. If they are Held, they can't use MoG. If you have a high enough Accuracy, you can still hit them through MoG. (Use lots of yellows or use large yellows.) And I think psionic attacks ignore it, but I'm not sure. (Edit again: They also can't use MoG if they are stunned. And they typically can't use MoG while recovering from KB, KD, or KU until after they finish getting back on their feet.) This is a know your enemies and tactics thing, not a time sink thing.

 

Edit yet again: Options for dealing with Moment of Glory and Personal Force Field:

1) Hold them. A held mob cannot activate any powers.

2) Stun them. A stunned mob cannot activate any powers.

3) Knock them. A knocked mob cannot activate any powers until after they finish recovering from the knock attack. (Does not help if they triggered before the knock effect is applied, as they will still animate activating the power while being knocked.)

4) Blast through it. Save your most damaging single target attack until just before the target's health drops low enough to trigger MoG/PFF, then zero their health with it before they can trigger the power.

5) DoT them. MoG and PFF don't stop already applied DoTs from applying their damage. Layer enough of them on the target and watch the target's health continue its inevitable trek to 0.

6) Overcome it. This only applies to MoG. However, with enough accuracy boosting, the target's MoG means nothing.

7) Bypass it. This also only applies to MoG and may not be true, but I have been informed psionic attacks ignore MoG.

8 ) Let them wear themselves out while dealing with the next spawn(s).

 

15 hours ago, DrRocket said:

Please try not to propose work arounds, work arounds are band aids at best and not a fix, but if provided they could be informative and thus welcome if provided with good heart

Huh? Your statement is self-conflicting. Don't give work arounds but give work arounds if given nicely?

 

Edited 22 hours ago by Rudra
Edited to correct "out" to "at". And again to swap "not" and "may".

[biostem]

You already have options, like radio missions.  The problem is that CoH is *not* a modern game - and that's why many of us love it!  I do not want CoH to be transformed into a "modern game", and while I can appreciate your desire to have the game respect our time better, at the same time, that is something wholly in our control - don't run content you don't like.  From my perspective, it isn't even about how long or short, or however many zones the mission/arc sends us - it's about who I am running such content with.  When you get a good group of people together, and people are chatting it up and having a good time, the particular mission almost becomes irrelevant...

[Troo]

@DrRocket I'd be onboard with some selective time sync reduction but not removal. Some of the labeled "time syncs" are immersion while others are tactical.

 

"making players traveling across zones" Immersion, while I believe there is no need for Numina level zone changing anymore.

"kill all mobs" It is a reasonable ask that it be all-but-one or targets showing on maps when at 95%. (I don't need this)

"kill the boss and his guards" Tactical part of the game with see above Kill all mobs room for improvement.

"when mobs that have Moment of Glory which I refer to "way too long moment of boredom" really needs to go" Tactical aspect of the game, players should know how to counter (hold, disorient, spike, +ToHit, or wait)

"running mobs, really is this needed at all?" Tactical aspect of the game, players should know how to counter. (immob, stun, hold, slow, taunt, knock, teaming, ranged attacks, and on & on)

 

[UltraAlt]

4 hours ago, DrRocket said:

Time sinks that come into mind is making players traveling across zones, when really it is not needed.

 

Your character(s) can have day job powers and START powers that can get you to supergroup bases and then use the teleporters to move your character(s) from zone to zone.

Not good enough? They add the Long Range Travel Power.
That is after already having the START Mission Teleporter and Team Transporter power.

 

Running scanner/paper missions mean that you don't have to zone to run the next mission.

 

You don't ever have to zone if you want to run on AE missions to avoid having to travel anywhere.

 

I like racing across zones myself.

I used to love watching other teams race by as they headed to their next mission.
 

5 hours ago, DrRocket said:

Another time sinks are the kill all mobs, this was a problem even during live days

 

Kill-Alls are to clean out all the enemies. I really don't have an issue with these unless one gets stuck in wall.

You can always autocomplete it if it isn't in a task force if it bothers you so much.

 

 

5 hours ago, DrRocket said:

Another type of time sink is when mobs that have Moment of Glory

 

Players can have it, so why can't the enemies.

Honestly, if you think that is such a pain, you have two options; beat them down before they can use it, or phase shift and go after them.

 

Moment of glory is no different than when the Master Illusionists (or whatever go desolid) or those dudes that pop the shield that make them invincible.

 

5 hours ago, DrRocket said:

Another insidious time sink is running mobs

 

wow. you really aren't enjoying this game at all.

Can you taunt them, immobilize them, sleep them, or slap a hold on them?

 

5 hours ago, DrRocket said:

I am sure there are other time sinks, feel free to add to this list

 

What like creating bio?

Or maybe making multiple costume?

Building a base?
Designing an AE mission?

Power customization?

Crafting?

The /AH?

Picking powers and slotting up?

 

These are all other aspects of the game.

 

5 hours ago, DrRocket said:

Please try not to propose work arounds, work arounds are band aids at best and not a fix, but if provided they could be informative and thus welcome if provided with good heart

 

 

 

 

5 hours ago, DrRocket said:

Perhaps those that disagree with the removal of time sinks, could start another threat asking for the addition of time sinks?

[TheMoneyMaker]

I'd be okay with kill all missions if there were fewer of them.

[Rudra]

20 minutes ago, TheMoneyMaker said:

I'd be okay with kill all missions if there were fewer of them.

Or at least didn't have timers or use maps where the mobs can disappear. (I am never going to get over the Freakshow kill all mission with the timer in the Arachnos layer cake base that had a Freakshow standing on a pipe at the very top of the layer cake room. I finished that 90 minute timed mission with less than 10 seconds left on the timer.)

[Luminara]

Immerses self in time sink (video game).

 

Complains about time sinks.

 

Self-created drama confirmed.

[Seed22]

7 hours ago, Troo said:

kill the boss and his guards" Tactical part of the game with see above Kill all mobs room for improvement.

Killing a boss and its' minions is in no way shape or form ever tactical. Its literally just smacking up a specific mob. That's not tactical, especially if said mob is effectively no different than the fodder you've seen in the map which is usually the case.

 

Thats pretty much the only thing baffling me. Do people really think smacking up the same type of mob but with a nametag is tactical? Speeding to it can be I guess but strangely enough, while people seem to hate kill alls, they always treat these type of mishs as a kill all instead of speed 😂

Edited yesterday at 02:08 PM by Seed22

[tidge]

The only part of the game that feels (to me, YMMV) more like a 'time sink' (as opposed to immersion) are those day 0 contact arcs that require back-and-forth travel between a couple of open-world contacts.

 

I do still roll my eyes on the Day 0 arcs that require jumping from zone-to-zone many missions in a row, but that became less of an issue once travel powers became available at level 4 and certainly not a problem with veteran/prestige travel options.

[lemming]

Areas where I feel I'm spending too much effort for the reward:

• Kill All Missions with wandering mobs.
• Timed Kill Alls. (hmm, this one just stresses me a little, had similar to Rudra Freakshow example)
• Kill All with a blinky.  (If you kill everything, all blinkies should auto click)
• Pointless deliveries well off the beaten path (I'm talking to you, Indigo & Crimson)
• Many hunts, any over ten seems pointless to me.
• Some badges take a long time to grind out, sorta wish you could have a SG badge that if members of a SG get over X times, new members get a boost in earning the badge themselves.  (I can already see some issues, so not a serious suggestion without more thought)

[Troo]

3 hours ago, Seed22 said:

Killing a boss and its' minions is in no way shape or form ever tactical. Its literally just smacking up a specific mob. That's not tactical, especially if said mob is effectively no different than the fodder you've seen in the map which is usually the case.

 

I see what you are saying. I was looking at this in the context the original poster laid out (see quote below). More of a surgical removal of the boss and minions from a large room with many groups.

 

14 hours ago, DrRocket said:

Another time sink is kill the boss and his guards, but it becomes a near kill all when the boss is placed in a mega room (which often the room is about 80% of the map) because you have to kill all the mobs in the room, not the mobs that were part of the boss's team. Perhaps killing the boss and his immediate guards would be a fix to this time sink. Makes me think, when you rescue the councilman in Manticore you defeat the mobs only in the room where the councilman was at, and not all the mobs in the mega-room.

 

3 hours ago, Seed22 said:

Thats pretty much the only thing baffling me. Do people really think smacking up the same type of mob but with a nametag is tactical? Speeding to it can be I guess but strangely enough, while people seem to hate kill alls, they always treat these type of mishs as a kill all instead of speed 😂

 

"Its literally just smacking up a specific mob." you seemed to answer your own question. Defeating a specific target is one of the mission types. 

While there may be little to no tactics on a steamroll there can absolutely be tactics involved when solo on say a single target specialist playing at a higher difficulty or on a less than character. 

 

As always, it's just my opinion given as feedback to the suggestion not as a rebuke. Keep suggestions coming!

 

 

Edited 22 hours ago by Troo

[Stormwalker]

14 hours ago, DrRocket said:

Time sinks that come into mind is making players traveling across zones, when really it is not needed. I remember doing an SF, where it sent you to another zone, but the pointer sent me to a boat in my zone, did the mission at the other zone and when finished we returned to the home zone. Thus the feel of going elsewhere was there, but the time sink of the pointless travel was not there, which I felt was great.

 

I actually like traveling across zones.  As Crimson would say, it adds verisimilitude.  It makes it feel real.  Also, START offers LOTS of transport options for not all that much inf.

 

14 hours ago, DrRocket said:

Another time sinks are the kill all mobs, this was a problem even during live days. It was resolved by making them a 90% kill of the mobs, perhaps this can be re-instated. Of course if the players want to stay in the mission, despite that the mission has been completed, and do kill all the mobs in order to gain experience its their choice. Frankly, I like choice.

 

Sometimes "defeat all" makes sense for narrative reasons, and in that context I have no problem with it.  Honestly, there are some missions I've done which I found myself thinking, "How is it that I can complete this mission without taking out all the badguys?  Couldn't the ones I left just finish what they started after I'm gone?"

 

Sometimes it makes sense that we don't need to defeat all.  Sometimes defeating the boss would be enough to break the villains' morale and they just leave.  Sometimes our goal is to retrieve something (or someone) and there's no need to defeat all the enemies - once we've rescued the hostage or retrieved the item, the villains have no reason to hang around anymore.  But sometimes, you haven't saved the day until you've arrested every single villain on site.

 

Now, there are examples of excessive "defeat all" - the first half of the Synapse TF is kinda brutal, for example - but those are mostly holdovers from the very early days of the game.

 

15 hours ago, DrRocket said:

Another type of time sink is when mobs that have Moment of Glory which I refer to "way too long moment of boredom" really needs to go , the game needs to be fluid and able to keep a good fun pace, without "commercial interruptions"

 

Honestly, I actually agree with you on this one.  We got stuck with a nerfed MoG, the NPC's should, too.  Nerf regen (for NPC's)!  Honestly, I hate Paragon Protectors in general, because generally they are not a serious threat, but they waste enormous amounts of time with their T9's.  It's not good design.

 

I mean, Carnie Master Illusionists are a much worse time sink than enemies with MoG.    The Master Illusionist is a threat, though, so having it take longer to finish off isn't purely a time-waste; it does actually add some difficulty.

 

That said, if you've ever soloed a Carnie outdoor mission on x8, you know it can take AGES to complete just because of all the Master Illusionists, and it can be really miserable.  There's one mission from Harvey Maylor where you have the outdoor graveyard map (which is huge!) and you have to rescue three hostages... but the hostages are ghosts, which makes them extremely difficult to find without actually engaging every group of enemies on the map.  It took me over an hour to complete that mission on my Claws/SR scrapper on +2/x7, and the vast majority of that time was spent dealing with Illusionists and Master Illusionists, because of their phasing ability.  That was not fun.  Also, I have on many, many occasions watched a Master Illusionist go out of phase while in the middle of the Hover-KB flip-recovery animation - players cannot execute powers during that animation, why can NPC's?  On my Claws Scrapper and my Energy Blaster, fixing that alone would enable defeating them much faster, because it would give me a way to prevent them from phasing out.

 

I do feel like certain enemy designs are not very respectful of the player's time.  The only thing that turns it from a major nusiance into a minor one is the ability to say, "Ok, I don't have time for this right now, so I'm just going to abandon/autocomplete this mission"... except, of course, when it's a timer mission and I'd therefore get stuck with a "Mission Failed".

 

Which brings me to my #1 QoL change I'd like to see:  Why, why, why do mission timers still count when we are logged out?  That's just bad.  A game should never, ever penalize a player for choosing real life over the game.  At least the vast majority of timer missions now warn us in advance, but it's still pretty easy to stumble into one.  And putting the player in a position where a "I need to log out now" event means they're going to get a mission failure definitely penalizes the player.  I hated this on live, I still hate it now, and if there was any one thing in the game I could change, that would be the one.

 

 

[Rudra]

14 minutes ago, Stormwalker said:

Also, I have on many, many occasions watched a Master Illusionist go out of phase while in the middle of the Hover-KB flip-recovery animation - players cannot execute powers during that animation, why can NPC's?

Illusionists and Master Illusionists don't seem to have a click power phase, they seem to have a toggle that can't maintain effect. I've seen them phase while in the middle of attacking someone for instance, and powers can't be activated while we are attacking anything. So best not to view their phasing as them activating a power, but as their power cycling as a constantly applied toggle. (Edit: Especially since the durations for the up time and down time don't change. And they are constantly phasing and de-phasing at a constant rate even if they are not yet triggered for combat.)

 

Edited 21 hours ago by Rudra

[Skyhawke]

I've read "time sink" so many times now, I'm imagining it's where the Menders wash their hands after hitting the head. 

[Stormwalker]

25 minutes ago, Rudra said:

Illusionists and Master Illusionists don't seem to have a click power phase, they seem to have a toggle that can't maintain effect. I've seen them phase while in the middle of attacking someone for instance, and powers can't be activated while we are attacking anything. So best not to view their phasing as them activating a power, but as their power cycling as a constantly applied toggle. (Edit: Especially since the durations for the up time and down time don't change. And they are constantly phasing and de-phasing at a constant rate even if they are not yet triggered for combat.)

 

I suspect you're right, and it's kind of exasperating, because it means we can't prevent them from phasing.

 

On my EM/EA scrapper, if I time my rush just after they come back into phase, I can prevent them from phasing the old-fashioned way - defeat them first (Build Up while charging in -> Long ET -> Total Focus -> Short ET is just fast enough as long as I don't whiff).   But on my other characters, I can't down them fast enough, so I'm forced to sit through one phase cycle at least, and by then the Dark Servant is out and hitting them even when they are phased in is a challenge.

 

This is actually the one and only reason I have started taking Focused Accuracy on my Scrappers again - I simply cannot count on defeating the Master Illusionist before Dark Servant comes out, even if there is only one of them. 

 

At least on my Blaster I have Aim for that.

Edited 21 hours ago by Stormwalker

[tidge]

[Kyksie]

You know what my personal pet peeve timesink is? The fact that we can't click on a monorail when the doors are open. You have to wait for them to close.

 

This might seem trivial, since it takes three, four, maybe five seconds at most. But if you add up the thousands and thousands of monorail trips over the past twenty years, I could have written the Great American Novel in the time I spent waiting. Or used the AE to write Mynx's Furry Adventure.

[biostem]

10 minutes ago, Kyksie said:

we can't click on a monorail when the doors are open

And heaven forbid you get into one of those "limbo states", where you've accidentally clicked and the icon just kind of vanishes or becomes an hourglass for a few moments, before eventually coming back...

[TheMoneyMaker]

16 hours ago, Skyhawke said:

I've read "time sink" so many times now, I'm imagining it's where the Menders wash their hands after hitting the head. 

It's also where they wash their time dishes after eating time dinner.