Add some bad or just-for-fun sets to the game

[Troo]

While we often have requests for set improvement or addition of epic level sets, how about some just for fun or challenge?

 

Clown MMs is a common request. Why not, but don't worry about making it good.

Could we have a three propel set with tazer and char that uses rotten fruit and vegetables in the names and animations?

 

More Fun / Less Min-Max !!

 

(Troo knows this is a great idea, no kudos needed)

[TheMoneyMaker]

There are better ideas floating around for new MM primaries, but that's the one primary they haven't added anything to.

 

How about a Pie in the Face blaster primary?

[JMacClear]

A Giant Boxing Glove on a spring ??

 

"Keeping alive the spirit of the Dynamic Duo 1967" .... well alright alright alright 🙂

 

[FupDup]

That's been most of the new sets added by HC. 

[JasperStone]

I have requested a powerset based on the ACME gadgets the Coyote uses against the Road Runner

[Ghost]

21 minutes ago, JasperStone said:

I have requested a powerset based on the ACME gadgets the Coyote uses against the Road Runner

Off topic - but I read the other day that a studio actually shelved a combo live action/animated Coyote movie in which the Coyote is suing Acme for all their failed projects.

 

 

[JasperStone]

15 minutes ago, Ghost said:

Off topic - but I read the other day that a studio actually shelved a combo live action/animated Coyote movie in which the Coyote is suing Acme for all their failed projects.

 

 

dang it

 

[Rudra]

4 hours ago, Ghost said:

Off topic - but I read the other day that a studio actually shelved a combo live action/animated Coyote movie in which the Coyote is suing Acme for all their failed projects.

 

 

Also off topic, but in one of the roadrunner cartoons, at the end after the final ACME device failed, the cartoon zooms in to the ACME label where it says in fine print it is a roadrunner company. ACME works fine in non-roadrunner cartoons where it shows up, it just specifically seems to fail for coyotes.

[OEM61]

The discussion might be fun, but I don't think that they should take the time to develop intentionally "bad" sets.

A Clown MM set might threaten to overrun the game and possibly destroy verisimilitude for some players, but if they are going to make it then they should make it comparable to other MM sets.  Pie in the face as a power within such a set?  Fine, but it has to be a decent ranged attack, stacking up with a Photon Grenade or Pulse Rifle Burst, for examples from Robotics.

It would make sense to slot such "gag" attacks into the Clown MM set.  "Telescoping Boxing Glove", "Squirting Flower", "'Bang' Flag Gun", "Anvil that Drops from the Sky", "Pie Attack", whatever.

Just figure out three attacks and boosts that work with whatever they decide upon for their clowns (looks like MMs get 3 attacks, 3 minion summons, and 3 minion 'boosters' of some sort in their primaries) and make it a set.  One that works on par with any other set.

[Rudra]

3 minutes ago, OEM61 said:

(looks like MMs get 3 attacks, 3 minion summons, and 3 minion 'boosters' of some sort in their primaries)

3 attacks, 3 summons, 2 summon upgrades, and 1 other themed for set.

 

Edited March 5 by Rudra
Edited to remove a comma.

[Ghost]

18 minutes ago, OEM61 said:

The discussion might be fun, but I don't think that they should take the time to develop intentionally "bad" sets.

A Clown MM set might threaten to overrun the game and possibly destroy verisimilitude for some players, but if they are going to make it then they should make it comparable to other MM sets.  Pie in the face as a power within such a set?  Fine, but it has to be a decent ranged attack, stacking up with a Photon Grenade or Pulse Rifle Burst, for examples from Robotics.

It would make sense to slot such "gag" attacks into the Clown MM set.  "Telescoping Boxing Glove", "Squirting Flower", "'Bang' Flag Gun", "Anvil that Drops from the Sky", "Pie Attack", whatever.

Just figure out three attacks and boosts that work with whatever they decide upon for their clowns (looks like MMs get 3 attacks, 3 minion summons, and 3 minion 'boosters' of some sort in their primaries) and make it a set.  One that works on par with any other set.

Not only that, but we all know how it will end up.

 

Funny, bad set released.  Everyone laughs, some play it.

 

6-9 months down the line, it will start

“fix these sets”

“they are low performing”

”it’s not fair”

 

[OEM61]

40 minutes ago, Ghost said:

Not only that, but we all know how it will end up.

 

Funny, bad set released.  Everyone laughs, some play it.

 

6-9 months down the line, it will start

“fix these sets”

“they are low performing”

”it’s not fair”

 

And in the meanwhile people that didn't know any better when they made their toon will have a miserable time.

Not great game design.

[Techwright]

12 hours ago, JMacClear said:

A Giant Boxing Glove on a spring ??

 

"Keeping alive the spirit of the Dynamic Duo 1967" .... well alright alright alright 🙂

 

 

Just as long as they bring the "Biff!" "Bop!" "Bam!" graphics along with the action.

 

Freem!

[TheMoneyMaker]

12 hours ago, OEM61 said:

The discussion might be fun, but I don't think that they should take the time to develop intentionally "bad" sets.
 

Intentionally "bad" can find a place in games. I think the most noteworthy example that comes to mind for me is Dan from the Street Fighter series with his much more limited attacks compared to main characters like Ken and Ryu.  He is often considered the joke character, and yet some people learned to use him despite the shortcomings in his attacks. Of course, Dan wasn't useless, he just had limits compared to similar characters, notably the shorter distance on his ranged attack. I think the trick would be to find a counterbalance to the limitation. As an example, consider if you added a melee attack set for corruptors & defenders. The need for melee proximity would hurt such a character that's typically better off as a ranged attacker, so perhaps add a little more damage to compensate. Of course, that's just an example, not really a petition for melee defenders, which seems like something that should be done as a separate AT rather than trying to squeeze a melee peg into a ranged hole.

[OEM61]

On 3/6/2025 at 5:03 AM, TheMoneyMaker said:

Intentionally "bad" can find a place in games. I think the most noteworthy example that comes to mind for me is Dan from the Street Fighter series with his much more limited attacks compared to main characters like Ken and Ryu.  He is often considered the joke character, and yet some people learned to use him despite the shortcomings in his attacks. Of course, Dan wasn't useless, he just had limits compared to similar characters, notably the shorter distance on his ranged attack. I think the trick would be to find a counterbalance to the limitation. As an example, consider if you added a melee attack set for corruptors & defenders. The need for melee proximity would hurt such a character that's typically better off as a ranged attacker, so perhaps add a little more damage to compensate. Of course, that's just an example, not really a petition for melee defenders, which seems like something that should be done as a separate AT rather than trying to squeeze a melee peg into a ranged hole.

If Dan, when controlled by a random player, had just as much chance to win in a fight against another character controlled by a player of similar skill, then Dan was not "bad".  Simple does not equal bad.
In CoH though, we already have "simpler" and "more complex" in the form of ATs overall.  Blasters are "simpler" to play than Defenders, for example.  A blaster doesn't have to consider where to apply debuffs for best effect, and group play for Blaster is much the same as solo play, where a Defender in a group is expected to monitor their teammates.

But in the event that Dan was "bad", and that any decent player using any other character would beat a similarly, or even more-skilled player using "Dan", then just because someone created a character in that game to 'steal' quarters* from some poor suckers that didn't know any better doesn't make it a good idea.

But hey, as long as we all know the deal what's the harm, right?

Well, first that assumes that everyone will "know the deal".  It sort of assumes zero-growth.  That the community is the community and no new people will ever show up.  That everyone is fully aware that set X is a "bad" set.

Additionally, it would only have limited appeal.  Any set is only going to appeal to so many people anyway, so to make a set that is worse than others, and that is what "bad" means unless we are redefining words here, would give it less appeal than any number of "average" sets they could create.

And, finally, it would only take a bit more work to produce an "average" set.  To create a "bad" set is a waste of developer time and energy.

Goodness knows there are sets out there now that players think are "bad", and definitely when it comes to using them with certain ATs.  No one seems to celebrate those.  To the contrary.  The people that talk about them either do so dismissively or they are advocating for change, to improve those sets.


* I have no idea if "Dan" existed in the old arcade game or if he came along later, but it doesn't really matter.

[Troo]

On 3/5/2025 at 3:43 PM, OEM61 said:

And in the meanwhile people that didn't know any better when they made their toon will have a miserable time.

Not great game design.

 

A simple description or label would be fair. The availability of such sets does not have to be available to a new account.

 

I would propose that anything deemed as 'fun' to a percentage of a player base qualifies as 'great game design'.

 

Not everyone enjoys base building, not everyone enjoys pvp, not everyone enjoys endgame min/maxing. Is your position that any development on these should not happen because they are more niche aspects of the game?

 

On 3/4/2025 at 10:54 PM, Troo said:

how about some just for fun or challenge?

 

New power sets might not need to be limited to 'highly tuned' death machines.

 

I would support more freedom in power set design. 

I would exchange requirements that new power sets 'measure up'. (with powerful sets there's a need to balance, avoid overpowered uberness, and advert potential abuse)

I would like to see more creativity released into the wild and see what happens.

 

Folks have long discussed alternate paths to defeating targets. Endurance drain is one, Impact from being knocked into something is another. It's possible something interesting could develop with more creative, fun focused, or challenge power sets.

 

 

Edited Friday at 05:09 PM by Troo

[gameboy1234]

On 3/4/2025 at 10:54 PM, Troo said:

While we often have requests for set improvement or addition of epic level sets, how about some just for fun or challenge?

 

Clown MMs is a common request. Why not, but don't worry about making it good.

Could we have a three propel set with tazer and char that uses rotten fruit and vegetables in the names and animations?

 

More Fun / Less Min-Max !!

 

Not sure I quite agree.  There's a lot of work involved in software development, probably more so in art assets, and I don't think the devs should spend time on releasing something that's "bad."

 

What I think might work:  Release things to the beta server that the devs are actually working on, but aren't finished yet.  Let folks play around with it and provide feedback.  This would be an extended play, not just putting up the beta server for final test of a product.  Could also be a rolling test where the devs add ideas that they are working on for an extended play, not just again "final" test.

 

If the devs ever finish up everything and just want to goof around, then sure.  But personally I think every "bad" set that is released live means we didn't get the time spent releasing a "good" set.

 

[Rudra]

25 minutes ago, gameboy1234 said:

What I think might work:  Release things to the beta server that the devs are actually working on, but aren't finished yet.  Let folks play around with it and provide feedback.  This would be an extended play, not just putting up the beta server for final test of a product.  Could also be a rolling test where the devs add ideas that they are working on for an extended play, not just again "final" test.

I think there is a closed beta players can apply to have access to that does that. Under NDA obviously.

[Ridiculous Girl]

a circus MM would work better... 3 acrobats, 2 bears, one strongman, and a clown car. 😄

[Clave Dark 5]

Late to the topic but I see the OP got downvoted for suggesting "fun" ha ha

[arcane]

2 hours ago, Clave Dark 5 said:

Late to the topic but I see the OP got downvoted for suggesting "fun" ha ha

I’m sure that’s exactly why I downvoted. I must hate fun. Your take is very perceptive and intelligent. You got me.

(I really simplified this response so there’s no misunderstanding with my team of forum moderator handlers)

 

Edited Saturday at 01:37 PM by arcane

[battlewraith]

4 hours ago, Clave Dark 5 said:

Late to the topic but I see the OP got downvoted for suggesting "fun" ha ha

 

Par for the course. I think some posters are so desperate to promote their vision of the status quo that they forget this is actually a game.

[El D]

On 3/5/2025 at 1:54 AM, Troo said:

While we often have requests for set improvement or addition of epic level sets, how about some just for fun or challenge?

 

Clown MMs is a common request. Why not, but don't worry about making it good.

Could we have a three propel set with tazer and char that uses rotten fruit and vegetables in the names and animations?

 

More Fun / Less Min-Max !!

 

Biggest quibble I can see with this was the reception to Hard Mode content (and Incarnate content, back on live). Many players already take umbrage with increased challenge/difficulty even at the highest tiers of the game where they have the most options to alleviate it. Adding it in deliberately across all levels by baking it in for entire powersets (and thusly exacerbating it even further in the end game for anyone who plays those sets or teams with a player who uses them) probably wouldn't be the right move.

 

Also it's still easy enough to make the game more difficult just by slotting powers inefficiently - or deliberately, like using SOs over an IO build. Power creep is important to consider when making new sets, certainly, but dialing effectiveness so that it ends up lower than a general baseline just means nobody will want to play the set (looking at you, Kinetic Melee). For Fun options should be relegated to customization, I think. If someone wants to play a serious, deadly ninja assassin with a katana or a goofy super-clown with a balloon sword, that should be a costume creator issue not a mechanics one. Also on that note, the Toy Bat should be a weapon skin for all the melee weapon sets.

[FupDup]

7 hours ago, Clave Dark 5 said:

Late to the topic but I see the OP got downvoted for suggesting "fun" ha ha

I didn't downvote him, but I'm guessing that the disagreement is because he presents the situation as if "fun" and "effective" are at odds with each other. In reality, things with good numbers/stats tend to be more fun than something designed similarly but with weaker stats. There comes a certain point when something's stats are so low that it cuts into the enjoyment or fun of using it. Such sets tend to fall off in popularity shortly after release because of this, which reduces the return on investment in terms of dev time/effort spent creating it and doesn't increase variety. 

 

There are a few things in the game that manage to be fun with low stats, like Dual Pistols, but that set isn't fun because of the low stats, it's fun despite the low stats. Giving it better stats would make it more funner. Not everything needs to be or can be Fire Blast, but I think that the minimum "power floor" ought to be raised up a fair bit. 

[Rudra]

4 minutes ago, El D said:

 

Biggest quibble I can see with this was the reception to Hard Mode content (and Incarnate content, back on live). Many players already take umbrage with increased challenge/difficulty even at the highest tiers of the game where they have the most options to alleviate it. Adding it in deliberately across all levels by baking it in for entire powersets (and thusly exacerbating it even further in the end game for anyone who plays those sets or teams with a player who uses them) probably wouldn't be the right move.

 

Also it's still easy enough to make the game more difficult just by slotting powers inefficiently - or deliberately, like using SOs over an IO build. Power creep is important to consider when making new sets, certainly, but dialing effectiveness so that it ends up lower than a general baseline just means nobody will want to play the set (looking at you, Kinetic Melee). For Fun options should be relegated to customization, I think. If someone wants to play a serious, deadly ninja assassin with a katana or a goofy super-clown with a balloon sword, that should be a costume creator issue not a mechanics one. Also on that note, the Toy Bat should be a weapon skin for all the melee weapon sets.

*flashes back to a Justice League cartoon where Toy Master shoots multiple parademons with a nerf gun, the demons look confused when the foam darts bounce off them, then all explode*

 

@El D and others have a very good point. A set doesn't have to be "bad" to be fun and intentionally designing a set to be "bad" means it won't see much use (if any) and will eventually lead to calls to bring it on par with other sets. Additional skins and animations for existing sets can bring back the fun for anyone that doesn't find them fun any more. Adding new sets that bring something novel to the game, like the clown MM of the author and the acrobat MM from someone else in the thread adds something new and distinct that is visually and thematically fun, but making them intentionally "bad", however "bad" is meant to mean in this context, is not a good idea. I think being able to run around with clowns as henchmen would be interesting. If nothing else, it can point out the fear of clowns stereotype person and/or even play into the murderous clown of say Joker and It fame. And the acrobat MM pitch is just fun for multiple reasons. If it and the clown MM are done right as sets.