QOL Request: Allow for Universal Travel IO's to be Slotted into Prestige Sprints

[Vanden]

 

So I guess you've looked at every single person's build, to be able to make a declaration like this?

 

You made the declaration of kind first. You can't demand evidence of me for refuting points you made under the same presumptions.

 

What declaration is that? That people currently have to spend slots to get KB protection that they could be spending on other things?

 

Except, as we've covered, there's absolutely PvE downsides to this suggestion, and if it's more work to avoid these downsides, so be it.

 

You've yet to list a single major PvE implication of this issue that I haven't specifically outlined.

 

It would basically eliminate KB on players as an element of the game.

 

[Banana Man]

KB in the post-IO PvE world is negligible. Again, I'm not really feeling strongly either way on this change, but that part is not an opinion.

 

Any character with a travel power can already get a free 4 KB protection, because slotting travel speed in PvE isn't needed unless you're going for a concept build or just enjoy going fast - ie, non-objective (but perfectly valid) reasons. Where do you really encounter KB mags over 4 in PvE? A few AVs? Pylons? That one earthquake event on that one TF where you go to a ruined skyway city?  When you do need that extra KB res, the 10 KB protection base temp's cost is basically so low that the cost doesn't exist.

 

I usually don't even bother getting the temp anyway, because one thing you can build for without much downside is soft-caped defense to everything, letting you mitigate over 90% of incoming damage on any build in the game while still having enough recharge to  run perma hasten and enough damage to two-three shot bosses. In the rare event that I do get KBed in PvE, it's little more than a minor nuisance.

 

As several others have already stated, you're greatly overestimating how much KB protection matters right now in PvE.

[Epsilon Assassin]

 

What declaration is that? That people currently have to spend slots to get KB protection that they could be spending on other things?

 

In part, yes.

 

Let me put it this way, I have never seen a PvE build waste a slot, as in an actual placable slot, on KB IOs. My PvE builds all have one KB IO. I can do all of the PvE content and never get KBed. The mobs that can KB me through the one KB IO I have in SS, can be counted on one hand. If I do a Nem arc, like most people, I just grab a 90 minute base buff for KB prot.

 

The only change that this change would impact on me, and the half a dozen people in my SG that do TF's with me, would be saving me 45 seconds every 90 minutes crafting a KB buff when I do Nemesis content. Huge PvE impact.

 

It would basically eliminate KB on players as an element of the game.

 

Not any more then it already has been. For literally over 99% of content, and 99% of the players, the 1 KB IO that you put in the 1 free slot you get in your travel power of choice, has already invalidated KB on players as a mechanic.

 

I've already addressed this.

[barrier]

 

It would basically eliminate KB on players as an element of the game.

 

Okay man, I'm going to tell you over and over here: KB is not an element on players in the game. Literally everyone has 1-2 kb ios or acro or hover. Literally everyone. If it is anything, it is a tribute to Castle's moronic stance on status effects (look at his take on holds, slows and stuns in PVP, the man was an idiot). Plain tribute. You can play without kb protection, sure; but it is not dissimilar from playing a petless mastermind.

 

Are you seriously going to argue that KB is an actual element of the game when most builds have (minor) elements tailored to nullify the element from the game?

[Robotech_Master]

If everyone gets 5 free slots they can use for knockback protection, that means that knockback protection simply becomes irrelevant. Everyone will put KB protection in those slots, and not anywhere else. That means they'll have extra slots available to put elsewhere, and they won't have to take Acrobatics at all (unless they need it for hold protection).

 

That's a pretty big PVE implication right there. People wouldn't have to choose whether to suffer knockback or reduce the effectiveness of their build in other ways. It's not even a question--you have these free slots that you can't use for much else; you might just as well throw KB protect in. And hence, knockback in PVE becomes entirely irrelevant, because no one ever needs to experience it, or to go out of their way to protect against it. That's simply unbalanced.

[barrier]

If everyone gets 5 free slots they can use for knockback protection, that means that knockback protection simply becomes irrelevant. Everyone will put KB protection in those slots, and not anywhere else. That means they'll have extra slots available to put elsewhere, and they won't have to take Acrobatics at all (unless they need it for hold protection).

 

That's a pretty big PVE implication right there. People wouldn't have to choose whether to suffer knockback or reduce the effectiveness of their build in other ways. It's not even a question--you have these free slots that you can't use for much else; you might just as well throw KB protect in. And hence, knockback in PVE becomes entirely irrelevant, because no one ever needs to experience it, or to go out of their way to protect against it. That's simply unbalanced.

 

Do you seriously have a PVE build with 5 KB ios in it? Serious question.

 

Edit: As noted above, KB in PVE is pretty much irrelevant. Everyone slots against it. Nobody experiences it.

[Shinobu]

 

I don't get the leap in logic from "KB isn't that big of a problem in PvE" to "let's completely remove it from the game" which is what this proposal is suggesting.  And calling that a small "Quality of Life" improvement is ridiculous.

 

Also if KB isn't a big problem then why does there need to be a solution?  If this is all about PvP, then I say go with the PvP-only solution.

 

Regardless, I don't see this (allowing enhancements in five passive powers that nobody uses, or at most uses only one) happening any time soon.

 

 

[barrier]

 

 

Regardless, I don't see this (allowing enhancements in five passive powers that nobody uses, or at most uses only one) happening any time soon.

 

You know you can slot stealth IOs into those, right?

[Shinobu]

 

 

Regardless, I don't see this (allowing enhancements in five passive powers that nobody uses, or at most uses only one) happening any time soon.

 

You know you can slot stealth IOs into those, right?

 

And that's it, and that was by design.

 

 

[Adeon Hawkwood]

Regardless, I don't see this (allowing enhancements in five passive powers that nobody uses, or at most uses only one) happening any time soon.

You know you can slot stealth IOs into those, right?

Right, but slotting a stealth IO into one Sprint has the same impact as slotting a stealth IO into all 6 of them so it's a minimized impact.

[Auroxis]

 

Not any more then it already has been. For literally over 99% of content, and 99% of the players, the 1 KB IO that you put in the 1 free slot you get in your travel power of choice, has already invalidated KB on players as a mechanic.

 

I've already addressed this.

 

You can remove a lot of features from the game using this subjective data. You don't get to decide the content people are running, you don't get to decide how people build their characters.

 

Get off your high horse and keep PvP changes in PvP.

[barrier]

 

 

Regardless, I don't see this (allowing enhancements in five passive powers that nobody uses, or at most uses only one) happening any time soon.

 

You know you can slot stealth IOs into those, right?

 

And that's it, and that was by design.

 

Stating that "it was by design" doesn't take away from the fact that your original statement assumed that no enhancements would be allowed in the prestige sprints or preclude a critique of the design. Sprints that you erroneously call "passives" when they really aren't "passives" by definition (gotta turn them on!)

[barrier]

Regardless, I don't see this (allowing enhancements in five passive powers that nobody uses, or at most uses only one) happening any time soon.

You know you can slot stealth IOs into those, right?

Right, but slotting a stealth IO into one Sprint has the same impact as slotting a stealth IO into all 6 of them so it's a minimized impact.

 

Hey, I agree there. But the KB impact is also the same. Slotting more than 1-2 KB IO's for PVE content is about as redundant as slotting multiple stealth io's into the same build (albeit, that's not possible). I'm sure you can agree with that.

 

Just because 5 slots open up, doesn't mean the functional effect is "5 extra slots".

[Shinobu]

 

 

Regardless, I don't see this (allowing enhancements in five passive powers that nobody uses, or at most uses only one) happening any time soon.

 

You know you can slot stealth IOs into those, right?

 

And that's it, and that was by design.

 

Stating that "it was by design" doesn't take away from the fact that your original statement assumed that no enhancements would be allowed in the prestige sprints or preclude a critique of the design. Sprints that you erroneously call "passives" when they really aren't "passives" by definition (gotta turn them on!)

 

My point is that the original game developers specifically disallowed the universal travel IOs from being slotted in sprint (or its variations) for game balance reasons.  This wasn't an accident.

 

But how about this?  If they can code the game so that you could slot universal travel IOs into any sprint, but they only work when that sprint is on.  I'd be okay with that.  At most you're granted 4 points of extra KB protection, or a 20% slow, which isn't such a big deal, and you're paying for it with the extra endurance used, which is the same as using the stealth IOs.

 

 

 

 

[Epsilon Assassin]

If everyone gets 5 free slots they can use for knockback protection, that means that knockback protection simply becomes irrelevant. Everyone will put KB protection in those slots, and not anywhere else. That means they'll have extra slots available to put elsewhere, and they won't have to take Acrobatics at all (unless they need it for hold protection).

 

That's a pretty big PVE implication right there. People wouldn't have to choose whether to suffer knockback or reduce the effectiveness of their build in other ways. It's not even a question--you have these free slots that you can't use for much else; you might just as well throw KB protect in. And hence, knockback in PVE becomes entirely irrelevant, because no one ever needs to experience it, or to go out of their way to protect against it. That's simply unbalanced.

 

No one actually dedicates actual non-free slots to KB in PvE. It is already entirely irrelevant because there are half a dozen pieces of PvE content with KB mag over 4. I specifically outlined the impact that this change would have in PvE. For the vast majority, it would give roughly .2 end/second to people fighting with their travel power on, which would be the difference between having a Micro and a KB IO in your travel power of choice.

 

So yes, in general, in a vacuum, this is a large PvE implication. In actual practice. It makes absolutely no difference.

[barrier]

 

 

Regardless, I don't see this (allowing enhancements in five passive powers that nobody uses, or at most uses only one) happening any time soon.

 

You know you can slot stealth IOs into those, right?

 

And that's it, and that was by design.

 

Stating that "it was by design" doesn't take away from the fact that your original statement assumed that no enhancements would be allowed in the prestige sprints or preclude a critique of the design. Sprints that you erroneously call "passives" when they really aren't "passives" by definition (gotta turn them on!)

 

My point is that the original game developers specifically disallowed the universal travel IOs from being slotted in sprint (or its variations) for game balance reasons.  This wasn't an accident.

 

But how about this?  If they can code the game so that you could slot universal travel IOs into any sprint, but they only works when that sprint is on.  I'd be okay with that.  At most you're granted 4 points of extra KB protection, or a 20% slow, which isn't such a big deal, and you're paying for it with the extra endurance used, which is the same as using the stealth IOs.

 

Yeah, the balance reason probably had very little to do with KB IO's and a lot to do with the fact that you had to buy those sprints, so you'd be basically selling slots.

[Epsilon Assassin]

I'm still confused as to why people, like Vanden, need mag 16 KB protection in PvE?

 

One KB IO + base buff is enough to tank Hami on a fire tank and not get KBed. Are you guys doing force-bolt only AE missions? I'm actually curious. All fake-nem AE missions?

 

Even if that all is true, why are you wasting 4-5 slots on KB IOs when you could just spend 45 seconds every 90 minutes getting a +10 mag KB protection buff from base. Is there something I'm unaware of?

[Vanden]

I'm still confused as to why people, like Vanden, need mag 16 KB protection in PvE?

 

One KB IO + base buff is enough to tank Hami on a fire tank and not get KBed. Are you guys doing force-bolt only AE missions? I'm actually curious. All fake-nem AE missions?

 

Even if that all is true, why are you wasting 4-5 slots on KB IOs when you could just spend 45 seconds every 90 minutes getting a +10 mag KB protection buff from base. Is there something I'm unaware of?

 

Nobody's spending 4-5 slots on KB IOs now. This is a strawman argument.

[barrier]

 

 

Nobody's spending 4-5 slots on KB IOs now. This is a strawman argument.

 

You keep saying that this is a major change. 1-2 slots is not a major change.

 

[Vanden]

 

 

Nobody's spending 4-5 slots on KB IOs now. This is a strawman argument.

 

You keep saying that this is a major change. 1-2 slots is not a major change.

 

1-2 slots can absolutely be a major change. And this isn't 1-2 slots, it's 1-2 slots, 16-20 KB protection for every character, and 20% slow resistance with Winter's Gift, which is huge considering how easy it is to build for slow resistance now with the winter event sets.

[Epsilon Assassin]

Nobody's spending 4-5 slots on KB IOs now. This is a strawman argument.

 

You were just saying earlier that you would get 3 slots from this "Change". Meaning you have at least 3 KB Ios slotted, plus, in all likelihood, the free KB IO slot you get in your travel power.  So, what are you guys doing that requires 16 mag KB protection in PvE?

 

Maybe I'm missing something. I can tank hami with one KB IO and base buff. I can solo LRSF with 1 KB IO. Like, what PvE are you guys doing that require so much KB prot?

 

Don't get me wrong. I don't care if this change really goes through, but it seems much more likely that you guys are just having a fit because it's a change, however minor, that might do something, or anything. Nothing behind your reasoning seems to make any sense. Seeing as how I have never seen a serious PvE build with *More then one KB IO, I'm wondering how you guys are needing this much prot.

[barrier]

 

 

Nobody's spending 4-5 slots on KB IOs now. This is a strawman argument.

 

You keep saying that this is a major change. 1-2 slots is not a major change.

 

1-2 slots can absolutely be a major change. And this isn't 1-2 slots, it's 1-2 slots, 16-20 KB protection for every character, and 20% slow resistance with Winter's Gift, which is hug considering how easy it is to build for slow resistance now with the winter event sets.

 

Can you tell me in concrete terms what is the functional difference between 16 kb protection and 8 kb protection in typical PVE contexts?

 

Seriously. Please don't dodge. (I already showed you my homework when it comes to PVP mag protection requirements).

[Vanden]

 

 

Nobody's spending 4-5 slots on KB IOs now. This is a strawman argument.

 

You keep saying that this is a major change. 1-2 slots is not a major change.

 

1-2 slots can absolutely be a major change. And this isn't 1-2 slots, it's 1-2 slots, 16-20 KB protection for every character, and 20% slow resistance with Winter's Gift, which is hug considering how easy it is to build for slow resistance now with the winter event sets.

 

Can you tell me in concrete terms what is the functional difference between 16 kb protection and 8 kb protection in typical PVE contexts?

 

Seriously. Please don't dodge. (I already showed you my homework when it comes to PVP mag protection requirements).

 

https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Knockback/Enemies_with_Knockback_Powers

There's a long list of powers with more than mag 8 KB.

[barrier]

 

 

Nobody's spending 4-5 slots on KB IOs now. This is a strawman argument.

 

You keep saying that this is a major change. 1-2 slots is not a major change.

 

1-2 slots can absolutely be a major change. And this isn't 1-2 slots, it's 1-2 slots, 16-20 KB protection for every character, and 20% slow resistance with Winter's Gift, which is hug considering how easy it is to build for slow resistance now with the winter event sets.

 

Can you tell me in concrete terms what is the functional difference between 16 kb protection and 8 kb protection in typical PVE contexts?

 

Seriously. Please don't dodge. (I already showed you my homework when it comes to PVP mag protection requirements).

 

https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Knockback/Enemies_with_Knockback_Powers

There's a long list of powers with more than mag 8 KB.

 

Okay, so, let's play: There are 1667 powers in that list. 1564 are mag 8 or less. That means that the most aggressive archetypal slotter who uses 2 KB ios is immune to 93.8% of KB powers in the game.

 

Gaining 2 more slots (mag 16kb), they'll be immune to 97.4%.

 

That is kind of the definition of de minimis.

[macskull]

 

 

Nobody's spending 4-5 slots on KB IOs now. This is a strawman argument.

 

You keep saying that this is a major change. 1-2 slots is not a major change.

 

1-2 slots can absolutely be a major change. And this isn't 1-2 slots, it's 1-2 slots, 16-20 KB protection for every character, and 20% slow resistance with Winter's Gift, which is huge considering how easy it is to build for slow resistance now with the winter event sets.

As others have repeatedly stated in this thread, there are likely very few people actually slotting that much KB protection in PvE builds. In reality what will probably happen is most people will ignore those extra slots because they probably won't even go to the P2W vendor and get the extra prestige sprints.

 

 

All my PvE builds have one KB IO slotted in Combat Jumping and I can count on one hand the number of times they have been KB'd. I don't take CJ just for the KB protection though, I take it because CJ+Hurdle is the best in-combat movement you can get in this game short of Inertial Reduction or Gymnastics.

 

 

I'll also address your earlier suggestion of adding KB protection into the inherent base resists that everyone gets. There are two issues with that:

 

 

1. Not every AT gets inherent base resistance in PvP.

2. To turn your argument back the other way... if I suddenly have all that extra KB protection for no investment I've now opened up at least eight slots to do other things with (and this isn't theoretical, you actually need eight slots for KB IOs in addition to Acrobatics to reach the level of KB protection you need to be survivable). By your own earlier argument that's a massive balance problem.

 

 

This is all kind of dumb anyways, because extra KB protection wasn't even a thing before I12 when Acro's KB protection was lowered from 100 points to 9 points. You can go on all you want about how you're basically gaining free slots, but the way it used to work meant some builds (specifically PvE ones, because every PvP build is going to be taking that pool for CJ and SJ anyways) would have to compromise into taking three power picks just to get any KB protection at all. The very existence of KB protection from IOs removed that requirement and gave builds more wiggle room. I'm having a very hard time understanding why anyone reasonable would be opposed to this.