Focused Feedback: Powerset - Plant Control

[LastHumanSoldier]

Seeds on live, and definitely not thr test version is not "the best control in the game."

 

After the "bug" fix on creepers and the adaptive on seeds i am ok with the future plant. But this bandying about that plant was the best needs to stop. Come on.

 

Any of the 16 target 90 second controls are better at this point.

 

There are better aoe confuses (arsenal). There are safer kits. There are better damage kits.

 

Edited Friday at 05:28 PM by LastHumanSoldier

[ExeErdna]

36 minutes ago, Championess said:

You'll be fine Seeds will still be the best control in the game with this setup just not absurdly so.

Not really, especially with Elec getting major buffs across the whole kit. Where Plant's Fly Trap needs to be looked at badly more so than anything.

[Championess]

6 minutes ago, ExeErdna said:

Not really, especially with Elec getting major buffs across the whole kit. Where Plant's Fly Trap needs to be looked at badly more so than anything.

 

Confuses are the best form of control.  Plant gets the consistent 10 targets, not some 'maybe' it'll chain for 10 confuses.  That recharge, reliable target count, damage it does of its own and the devs even got suckered into giving it Adaptive Recharge.  Yes Seeds is still the bar they just lowered it a smidge.

Edited Friday at 05:34 PM by Championess

[ExeErdna]

Just now, LastHumanSoldier said:

Seeds on live, and definitely not thr test version is not "the best control in the game."

 

After the "bug" fix on creepers and the adaptive on seeds i am ok with the future plant. But this bandying about that plant was the best needs to stop. Come on.

 

Any of the 16 target 45 second controls are better at this point.

 

There are better aoe confuses (arsenal). There are safer kits. There are better damage kits.

 

 

As somebody that min/max'd a Plant/Nature they're making it seems like Plant is crazy OP. It isn't never was, it's simply visually impressive seeing 20 vines pop up yet how did the mob die? The Fire Blaster nuked the mob... All I play seriously now is Trollers and Plant is lower tier that's because outside of Creepers it's basic. Other sets are either bring more debuffing in the kit itself or as you said safer. 

[Ratch_]

4 minutes ago, ExeErdna said:

 

As somebody that min/max'd a Plant/Nature they're making it seems like Plant is crazy OP. It isn't never was, it's simply visually impressive seeing 20 vines pop up yet how did the mob die? The Fire Blaster nuked the mob... All I play seriously now is Trollers and Plant is lower tier that's because outside of Creepers it's basic. Other sets are either bring more debuffing in the kit itself or as you said safer. 

I definitely noticed it's power in comparison to other control sets doing solo content but it never really mattered when it came to teaming. Honestly my secondary and creepers always provided more to the team than seeds.

(granted if the creeper patch could catch up 😅)

Edited Friday at 05:40 PM by Ratch_

[ExeErdna]

3 minutes ago, Championess said:

 

Confuses are the best form of control.  Plant gets the consistent 10 targets, not some 'maybe' it'll chain for 10 confuses.  That recharge, reliable target count, damage it does of its own and the devs even got suckered into giving it Adaptive Recharge.  Yes Seeds is still the bar they just lowered it a smidge.

The best form of control is knockdown/up since there's no real limit to how much it loops especially if you have stacking sources like an Earthquake/Bonfire on a Frenzied Tide Pool. 

[Parabola]

1 minute ago, ExeErdna said:

11 minutes ago, Championess said:

 

Confuses are the best form of control.  Plant gets the consistent 10 targets, not some 'maybe' it'll chain for 10 confuses.  That recharge, reliable target count, damage it does of its own and the devs even got suckered into giving it Adaptive Recharge.  Yes Seeds is still the bar they just lowered it a smidge.

The best form of control is knockdown/up since there's no real limit to how much it loops especially if you have stacking sources like an Earthquake/Bonfire on a Frenzied Tide Pool. 

As much as I've disagreed with everything else Championess has said I have to agree that confuse has to be considered the best control effect. It's hard to argue with a control that makes the mobs kill themselves and buff you. That's not to say Seeds is where it needs to be, just that given the straight choice between holding, stunning, fearing, confusing, etc a mob I'll choose confusing every time. Many enemies even tend to herd themselves when confused if left mobile.

[arcane]

Yes, Plant is overpowered on live. Yes, Confuse is the most powerful mez effect in the game. No, you aren’t an expert on Plant just because you play Plant. Stop being ridiculous. The set is in good shape now after the most recent changes, so what is the point of the gaslighting.

[Burnt Umber]

I don't really like that the proc chance in seeds (and in Synaptic, but that's for another thread) has been obliterated.  I'd rather take the 10 target cap and 90 second recharge.  Part of the problem, for me, is that Coercive is so much better than any of the other options for slotting a confuse power that it hurts a fair bit when slotting it still feels like picking the lesser of two evils rather than a positive choice.

[Championess]

17 minutes ago, Burnt Umber said:

I'd rather take the 10 target cap and 90 second recharge.

 

Yeah that's the catch 22 of the change.  You get the much better proc anticipation without Adaptive, although Seeds becomes a versatile confuse as target counts drop.  You're right from a frontloaded perspective it'd probably be best without Adaptive.

[ExeErdna]

44 minutes ago, Parabola said:

As much as I've disagreed with everything else Championess has said I have to agree that confuse has to be considered the best control effect. It's hard to argue with a control that makes the mobs kill themselves and buff you. That's not to say Seeds is where it needs to be, just that given the straight choice between holding, stunning, fearing, confusing, etc a mob I'll choose confusing every time. Many enemies even tend to herd themselves when confused if left mobile.

The best confusion isn't on Plant it's on Arsenal, for Plant most of us used it as a proc bomb to hit for like 200 dmg and the confusion was a cherry on top. To be real it would be Ice on a Dom yet that aura is personally too hot to respect.

[Burnt Umber]

20 minutes ago, ExeErdna said:

for Plant most of us used it as a proc bomb to hit for like 200 dmg and the confusion was a cherry on top.

 

This doesn't feel like an accurate description for me.  On a Dom., at least, Seeds was a great opener that would cause a good portion (if not all) of a mob to fire on itself as I fired off my own cones and other AOE powers; it provided safety to take out the fodder with my opening salvo.  And, to get that 200 damage number, you'd have to slot both of the confusion sets' damage procs as well as a controller ATO unique, so that certainly excludes Dominators from you consideration.  But, I can see on a Controller how this has a severe impact on playstyle.

 

35 minutes ago, Championess said:

although Seeds becomes a versatile confuse as target counts drop. 

 

Respectfully, I'm not sure I understand much of the value in that.  When there are only a few (or perhaps only one) target left in a mob, would a hold be more useful?  I feel like, barring a couple of edge cases with AVs/Heroes, confuse is most help when there is a target rich environment where you and your team want fodder to be distracted when you clear them.  As target count drops, I feel like you want more impactful lockdowns on the remaining targets.  Indeed, I feel those are the occasions when the adaptive recharge in the AoE holds shines.

[Championess]

10 minutes ago, Burnt Umber said:

 

This doesn't feel like an accurate description for me.  On a Dom., at least, Seeds was a great opener that would cause a good portion (if not all) of a mob to fire on itself as I fired off my own cones and other AOE powers; it provided safety to take out the fodder with my opening salvo.  And, to get that 200 damage number, you'd have to slot both of the confusion sets' damage procs as well as a controller ATO unique, so that certainly excludes Dominators from you consideration.  But, I can see on a Controller how this has a severe impact on playstyle.

 

 

Respectfully, I'm not sure I understand much of the value in that.  When there are only a few (or perhaps only one) target left in a mob, would a hold be more useful?  I feel like, barring a couple of edge cases with AVs/Heroes, confuse is most help when there is a target rich environment where you and your team want fodder to be distracted when you clear them.  As target count drops, I feel like you want more impactful lockdowns on the remaining targets.  Indeed, I feel those are the occasions when the adaptive recharge in the AoE holds shines.

 

I was messing around with my Mind doms new Mass Confusion with Adaptive.  Yes you can target individuals and hit them each with a ST confuse or hold.  It was real nice though not having to individually target the 4 remaining critters on me which would be bosses I'd want to quickly mez and still have that power quickly for the next fight.  From a control perspective Adaptive is quality stuff but does highlight possible redundancies in ST mez power picks.

Edited Friday at 07:22 PM by Championess

[Jaxman100]

Solo, adaptive recharge might be over kill on small spawns. And a single target hold with damage might be more efficient. 

 

But midsized teams, 3-5 players, any power with adaptive recharge is going be more readily available.  Lower proc chances might mean Bosses are confused less. There's for sure going to be a line where the updated version is better in situation X and also where it's now 'worse' in situation Y. 

Hopefully on larger teams, you don't have to rely on Seeds as heavily.  

 

My play testing has me thinking I will be doing more Plant power casting going forward vs utilizing my secondary powers as heavily. Spirit Tree has more uses, Vines changes make it more appealing to not 'save' for an emergency. I will probably have to respec and pick up Spores.... hard to figure out what to drop and where to find slots.

 

[Wavicle]

1 hour ago, ExeErdna said:

The best confusion isn't on Plant it's on Arsenal, for Plant most of us used it as a proc bomb to hit for like 200 dmg and the confusion was a cherry on top. To be real it would be Ice on a Dom yet that aura is personally too hot to respect.

I’ve never seen a better argument for nerfing procs. A no damage ability should not be able to be turned into a nuke.

[aethereal]

3 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

I’ve never seen a better argument for nerfing procs. A no damage ability should not be able to be turned into a nuke.

 

It is genuinely startling how much of the meta of City of Heroes turns almost entirely on the hinge of procs.  Like, think about just how much the falloff in performance of Tanks in this patch comes from going from "given favorable treatment in terms of proc chances" to "given normal treatment in terms of proc chances."  Think of how much of the performance in Tanks is dependent on their ability to fit more procs into a functional build than other classes.

 

Here, I think it is definitely not crazy to prefer the patch 1 version of seeds to patch 2 -- that says a LOT about how big a deal procs are.

 

Any change to procs would definitely be super controversial exactly because they are so extremely powerful, but it's hard for me to see how they aren't taking up too much design space.

 

[ApolloInferno]

Some basic Number Crunching for Seed of Confusion!

 

---

Test Parameters:

- Confuse Cimeroran groups in first mission of ITF (8x) and wait for all but 1 to kill each other.

- Soft cap defense before confuse.

- Fold space after first Confuse and continue to use confuse until last enemy is left.

- Repeat with 50,52, and 54 enemies (both Test and Live)

- Goal is to get Confuse count and Damage Taken values to gauge the effectiveness of the taunt.

---

 

Result: Enemy groups can be confused at or above the 80% threshold to avoid deadly damage from first strike in most cases with Test Build 2.  Damage taken ranged from 10-30% more with extended engagements.

 

Opinion: Adaptive Recharge on the power seems to be the right choice for the power. Test Build 2 Seeds is fuctioning well in most senarios and the power does what it needs to do. With one exception: long engagements with large groups or enemies that are resistent to confuse. It stuggles more under this current build of seeds due to the combination of changes. In my opinion, it is slightly below the breakpoint of a "AoE Control" power with its target cap at 10. Suggest adding 2 more targets to target cap, it might be able to confuse resistant boss targets or affect large enough groups of enemies to affectively Control the group. This proposed change does assume that every dominator will use Contagious Confusion since the power cant funtion without it now. Which is also the issue, aince before target cap reduction the power could function as a control power without contagious confusion. Not sure if you wanted to reduce dependence on procs as it is only required now because the target cap is too low for most 8x groups.

 

Again all of these changes were tested using my Dominator. 

 

Hope this helps!

 

Edited yesterday at 03:26 AM by ApolloInferno

[ivanhedgehog]

On 5/29/2025 at 8:44 AM, CaptSquid said:

The real question isn’t whether Seeds or Creepers are “still good” in a vacuum — it’s whether they’ll still be strong and unique enough post-patch for players to actually want to play Plant Control. Balance changes shouldn’t just flatten out outliers; they should preserve what makes a set appealing in the first place. If the result is a powerset that’s technically “balanced” but no longer stands out in any meaningful way, that’s not really a win.
 

A balance patch that makes a set less popular or less fun to play isn’t achieving good design. Players gravitate toward power sets that feel impactful, and removing or dulling their most iconic tools risks killing that appeal. That’s what people are concerned about here — not whether every power is numerically fair, but whether the set will still feel worth picking.

The question should be asked...do these changes make the game(or the set) more fun? I would argue no.

[Borgold]

that depends if your a masochist or not

[Ratch_]

3 hours ago, ApolloInferno said:

This proposed change does assume that every dominator will use Contageous Confusion since the power cant function without it now.

 

The only thing I really want from the current build is increased target cap, ideally back to 16 as the reduction to 10 was a ridiculous choice to begin with. 

With the adaptive recharge set at 8s, if you 6pc slot coercive persuasion then you now have a ~15.8% chance to proc contageous confusion. It's a nice bonus but far from a reliable measure/fallback

Edited yesterday at 02:14 AM by Ratch_

[macskull]

6 hours ago, Wavicle said:

I’ve never seen a better argument for nerfing procs. A no damage ability should not be able to be turned into a nuke.

200 hit points is less than half of a level 50 minion's health. If that's a nuke, it's a pretty disappointing one.

[Cheli]

6 hours ago, Wavicle said:

I’ve never seen a better argument for nerfing procs. A no damage ability should not be able to be turned into a nuke.

Is your problem with plant, or with procs? Because nerfing plant does nothing to stop people from proc-bombing. Plant isn't even the best at it. Honestly, no control set/AT is. 

 

Procs are a completely separate problem and one that the devs clearly do not like but because the entire meta of the game's top-end now revolve around it, to the point that they balance content with it in mind, there's not really anything that can be done about it. Changing plant ain't gonna change that.

[Nathic69]

Seeds need to be 16 targets go play a Dom and tell me it feels fine, I don't want to respec and be forced to take 2 more skills just to be able to CC 

[macskull]

1 hour ago, Cheli said:

Is your problem with plant, or with procs? Because nerfing plant does nothing to stop people from proc-bombing. Plant isn't even the best at it. Honestly, no control set/AT is. 

 

Procs are a completely separate problem and one that the devs clearly do not like but because the entire meta of the game's top-end now revolve around it, to the point that they balance content with it in mind, there's not really anything that can be done about it. Changing plant ain't gonna change that.

I also don’t think the “boo hoo you can’t proc bomb Seeds anymore” comments hold any water because 1) it only holds 2-3 procs and 2) who’s going to pass up the purple confuse set for procs? Today is first time I’ve ever heard of people slotting Seeds that way, so I can’t imagine it’s something many people actually did.

[Mezmera]

7 minutes ago, macskull said:

I also don’t think the “boo hoo you can’t proc bomb Seeds anymore” comments hold any water because 1) it only holds 2-3 procs and 2) who’s going to pass up the purple confuse set for procs? Today is first time I’ve ever heard of people slotting Seeds that way, so I can’t imagine it’s something many people actually did.

 

That's true only being able to slot a few confuse dmg procs doesn't outweigh slotting it with the purple set.