How would you nerf tankers?

[SeraphimKensai]

3 minutes ago, Neiska said:

This you? 

 

I kid I kid, in seriousness thank you for your service.

I can't take credit for his creativity. I simply kept my ammo down range rather than in my nostrils.

[tidge]

1 minute ago, Erratic1 said:

 

Blasters may manage pretty impressive Trapdoor times, but its facing Council, not exactly known for their Mez usage. 

 

I would also be careful at levelling, "too high DPS" at a DPS class lest some angry Blaster fan make a similar comment as goes survivability and Tankers. DPS is, after all, the sole purpose of Blasters.

 

I gotcha, but remember the Blaster panic when Rune of Protection was made to not be affected by Global recharge? As things stand now, it isn't particularly difficult to craft a Blaster with at least one 'Break Free' powers, high global defenses and a self-rez.

 

From memory, the typical issue characters have with Trapdoor is the -Perception from Arachnos.

[Erratic1]

6 minutes ago, tidge said:

 

I gotcha, but remember the Blaster panic when Rune of Protection was made to not be affected by Global recharge? As things stand now, it isn't particularly difficult to craft a Blaster with at least one 'Break Free' powers, high global defenses and a self-rez.

 

Panic which is being mirrored currently somewhere else? 😛

 

I do not see much argument as goes the overcap penalty being too extreme nor too much that points at other factors being major contributors to slowing down Tanker performance on the test server. So starting from 30% being too extrreme a cut in Tanker damage output, how much is a proper/acceptable amount?

[Neiska]

10 minutes ago, Erratic1 said:

 

Panic which is being mirrored currently somewhere else? 😛

 

Know what? Fair.

 

10 minutes ago, Erratic1 said:

I do not see much argument as goes the overcap penalty being too extreme nor too much that points at other factors being major contributors to slowing down Tanker performance on the test server. So starting from 30% being too extrreme a cut in Tanker damage output, how much is a proper/acceptable amount?

 

My main concern is that changes affect different powersets differently. And that the top performing sets aren't as impacted as the lower performing sets. Off the top of my head, this affects Super Strength, Fire Melee and Spines more than say, Energy or Kinetic Melee? And some, like a Spines Tanker, well, their AoE is really their only selling point. They are rather subpar for anything else but AoE. The only thing that really made spines good on a tanker in the first place, was the increased targets. With this change? I expect spines to drop to close to the bottom. I think this change is heavy-handed in reference to how it applies to all tanker powers, when not all tanker powers are OP currently. If they had a change that mainly focused on the problem sets, I wouldn't be so concerned. But that isn't the case.

[Erratic1]

3 minutes ago, Neiska said:

 

My main concern is that changes affect different powersets differently.

 

Powerset balance has to happen on its own. Kinetic Melee is a miserable set regardless of AT. Its existence however is not a reason to delay global changes. KM simply needs to be addressed in its own right. Same for any other underperforming set.

[tidge]

I don't think the current beta Tanker rollbacks are unwarranted, or even qualify as nerfs... so no panic on my part. As I've often written, I like the game best when there isn't an order of magnitude difference in mission completion times for different ATs run by the same solo player. I'm thinking about mid-levels 30-45 content when we start getting a lot of 'defeat all' missions with enemies that have a significant number of extra tricks.

 

Historically (old history), one of the ways I found for solo Tankers to speed this up has been to pull as many enemies along as possible. For small spawn sizes these changes shouldn't really affect Tanker times.

[Neiska]

1 minute ago, Erratic1 said:

 

Powerset balance has to happen on its own. Kinetic Melee is a miserable set regardless of AT. Its existence however is not a reason to delay global changes. KM simply needs to be addressed in its own right. Same for any other underperforming set.

 

While I don't disagree, this means that some powersets will rarely be seen or used on any AT. I would rather have a few powers be too strong than some not be strong enough. Just as certain niche builds or situations aren't reasons to nerf an entire AT. People are pointing to the Tankers damage, when on teams, a tankers damage doesn't really compare/matter as much. This change affects solo play more than it does team play, IMO. 

 

So, in a way, it feels as if they are kind of nerfing solo tanking because of what damage a tanker can do when compared to other ATs. But nobody ever compares other things like durability among the ATs in order to make changes/edits. Its only damage that gets fiddled with. Never DEF, Res caps, etc. For the damage that some ATs can do, they are far too tough IMO. But that's not a conversation anyone wants to have apparently.

[Ukase]

15 hours ago, kelika2 said:

how the hell are you going above 80% fury and staying there?

Just anecdotally, my brutes get to about 90% fury when they're in the midst of a large group. But - to be transparent, it often takes a while to get there, and when the npcs are dying off, it drops. I suppose there's room for exaggeration as far as "staying there" goes. It drops to about 70% as I move to the next group. A lot depends on the map, and how much time/distance there is between groups/mobs. In AE, with some of the maps having the ambushes and patrols, it can be fairly simple to sustain it for a while, but even those maps have their limits. 

In the rest of CoH, except maybe in the monster mash of the labyrinth portion, I can't imagine too many scenarios where a player could sustain over 90%, but I certainly haven't tried everything there is to try with a brute. But that's just my experience with brutes. Certainly others would have different perspectives. 

[Gobbledigook]

23 minutes ago, Neiska said:

 

While I don't disagree, this means that some powersets will rarely be seen or used on any AT. I would rather have a few powers be too strong than some not be strong enough. Just as certain niche builds or situations aren't reasons to nerf an entire AT. People are pointing to the Tankers damage, when on teams, a tankers damage doesn't really compare/matter as much. This change affects solo play more than it does team play, IMO. 

 

So, in a way, it feels as if they are kind of nerfing solo tanking because of what damage a tanker can do when compared to other ATs. But nobody ever compares other things like durability among the ATs in order to make changes/edits. Its only damage that gets fiddled with. Never DEF, Res caps, etc. For the damage that some ATs can do, they are far too tough IMO. But that's not a conversation anyone wants to have apparently.

I will just play my corruptor more. Very tough for a ranged class, i do not need to stand in a group like a Tanker does. Very fast rotating nukes and clear speeds, probably better than my Tankers on live. Buffs the whole team also lol. 

 

But lets pick on Tankers as they have higher mitigation values and lets forget about what other AT's can do and bring.

 

In a team we are usually buffed well beyond what is needed to survive and it is more about damage. The Tanker higher mitigation values only really matter soloing hard content or maybe extreme content, but many just spam barrier for that.

 

I want to feel heroic on my Tanker and not just a waste of space. I just hope they don't over nerf them.

[Gobbledigook]

26 minutes ago, Ukase said:

Just anecdotally, my brutes get to about 90% fury when they're in the midst of a large group. But - to be transparent, it often takes a while to get there, and when the npcs are dying off, it drops. I suppose there's room for exaggeration as far as "staying there" goes. It drops to about 70% as I move to the next group. A lot depends on the map, and how much time/distance there is between groups/mobs. In AE, with some of the maps having the ambushes and patrols, it can be fairly simple to sustain it for a while, but even those maps have their limits. 

In the rest of CoH, except maybe in the monster mash of the labyrinth portion, I can't imagine too many scenarios where a player could sustain over 90%, but I certainly haven't tried everything there is to try with a brute. But that's just my experience with brutes. Certainly others would have different perspectives. 

I can stay at around 85% quite easily. Drops off as you move to next mob but not by much depending on how far they are, soon ramps back up though. It is probably easier to do solo though.

[Erratic1]

55 minutes ago, Neiska said:

While I don't disagree, this means that some powersets will rarely be seen or used on any AT.

 

This is already the case. I came across the awfulness of Kinetic Melee on Live and Homecoming has been humming along for years with plenty of changes to plenty of powersets, yet KM remains miserable. As a result it is rarely seen in the wild.

 

And yes, that is frustrating. But that lack of change did not stop other global changes from going through for gain or loss.

[Snarky]

1 hour ago, SeraphimKensai said:

What's wrong with being a sith? I simply want to bring order to a dysfunctional system. Realistically as a disgruntled middle aged man who's a public servant and a combat vet, I'd probably be a grey force user that has some sith tendencies.

In all seriousness (how rare for ME?) Thank you for your service.

[SeraphimKensai]

1 hour ago, Snarky said:

In all seriousness (how rare for ME?) Thank you for your service.

It wasn't much of a choice, I could have worked at blockbuster or get flown across the world to rapidly disassemble buildings and dig holes for swimming pools by using explosives.

 

I guess I saw the writing on the wall with Blockbuster, as Netflix had started shipping DVDs directly to people's homes saving them the trip to the video store. Maybe that was the precursor to their demise. Anyways I got to play the most immersive Modern Warfare game out there, so much to the point I quit playing the genre as it was just a pale comparison.

 

I wonder though what I would have ended up doing had I taken that Blockbuster job instead....

[PeregrineFalcon]

I only have two tanks at level cap. My main, Inv/Em and a Will/SS. Maybe that's skewing my perception, as they both only have one damaging AoE.

 

I haven't noticed any difference in the damage output of either of them on test as compared to live. Now, I didn't break out the stop watch, so maybe that's why, but I think that if the damage were a significant nerf that I'd at least notice.

 

So does this nerf really affect proc monsters builds more than ordinary tankers?

[Erratic1]

7 minutes ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

I only have two tanks at level cap. My main, Inv/Em and a Will/SS. Maybe that's skewing my perception, as they both only have one damaging AoE

 

You took Whirling Hands and skipped Power Crash didn't you?

[PyroBeetle]

6 hours ago, Uncle Shags said:

The same can be said for any AT in this game.  Should everyone be nerfed? 

 

As a matter of fact, if you read my entire post, yes, and it is happening already. The game has needed to make changes to the way procs work for quite some time.  Tankers and controllers will be really feeling the proc nerf this patch. And yes, part of this patch is correcting what was an overcorrection to tanks to avoid City of Brutes.

 

But honestly no class enjoys the durability that tankers do, and while other class can and do destroy content at +4x8 solo, most of them run the risk of sudden faceplant when things go sideways, or are not as fast as tanks are with the AoE taunt, and punchvoke keeping all the mobs in a nice tight ball ready to murderize.

 

Tanks have largely come to become tank mages with the overtuning that homecoming did to their damage and the proc calculations all being figured out and maximized. This patch is merely a correction, and not as drastic of one (perhaps outside of AE Farming) as it is being made to seem. My Elec/Axe tanker will still be played after the patch goes live for sure, but perhaps more of my other 50s will receive playtime than I had been doing.

Edited Tuesday at 05:26 PM by PyroBeetle

[Maelwys]

1 hour ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

I think that if the damage were a significant nerf that I'd at least notice.

 

So does this nerf really affect proc monsters builds more than ordinary tankers?

Completely ignoring Procs, a 10ft Tanker PBAoE on Brainstorm is doing about 23% less damage; even to a SINGLE TARGET, than on Live.
(That's a byproduct of moving the radius buffs out of gauntlet and into the attack itself)
And if you're hitting the maximum number of targets (e.g. 16) then you can expect to be dealing about 39% less damage than before.
(That's the result of the "overcap damage reduction" nerf)

Cones are even worse. Cones have a narrower arc than before and a far steeper "overcap damage reduction" than AoEs.

Procs have been reduced in effectiveness too, yes, but even without procs Tanker AoEs are getting hammered; and Tanker Cones are getting obliterated.

SuperStrength is less impacted than other sets because FootStomp has a 15ft radius by default. But if you hit >10 targets with it then you'll start seeing noticeable reductions.

 

Edited Tuesday at 06:03 PM by Maelwys

[tidge]

8 minutes ago, Maelwys said:

Procs have been reduced in effectiveness too, yes, but even without procs Tanker AoEs are getting hammered; and Tanker Cones are getting obliterated.

 

Changes to cones is another head-scratcher for me... maybe I need to be deloused? The enemy AI and the physical restrictions of which enemies could be hit by a cone, plus the level at which Tankers tend to get cone attacks <- these contributed to me finally feeling good about Tanker cones (with wide arcs). I find it hard to believe that the cones have to be made narrower... just given the way the critters behave. 

[ZemX]

4 hours ago, Maelwys said:

Completely ignoring Procs, a 10ft Tanker PBAoE on Brainstorm is doing about 23% less damage; even to a SINGLE TARGET, than on Live.
(That's a byproduct of moving the radius buffs out of gauntlet and into the attack itself)

 

It is not a byproduct.  It is a choice.  The area factor is included in the original design formulas for powers balance.  It is not calculated at run-time.  They had the choice to increase radius without nerfing damage and DECIDED to nerf the damage... then not mention it in the feedback thread.

 

I'm not especially happy about that, I have to say.

[Neiska]

5 hours ago, PyroBeetle said:

But honestly no class enjoys the durability that tankers do, and while other class can and do destroy content at +4x8 solo, most of them run the risk of sudden faceplant when things go sideways, or are not as fast as tanks are with the AoE taunt, and punchvoke keeping all the mobs in a nice tight ball ready to murderize.

 

Have to respectfully disagree here... I have made some VERY durable Crabbers, 45% DEF, 85% RES, flying, full ranged attacks, etc etc etc... not that many people build them that way, but its certainly possible. Was she killing things quickly? Heck no. But there were times when she was the most durable one on the team, including the brute/tanker. I have also had MMs that could survive things that that would wreck some of my tankers too. 

 

Now is that normal, standard, or typical? Heck no. But to say that its impossible to reach tanker-levels of durability with any other AT is just plain incorrect. 

 

I do hasten to add that your general point - that "most" don't get that tough is correct. But to say that nobody can or does isn't correct. Heck, I have seen a Shield Scrapper Tank Recluse before. 

[Maelwys]

1 minute ago, ZemX said:

They had the choice to increase radius without nerfing damage and DECIDED to nerf the damage... then not mention it in the feedback thread.

I am hoping; hoping I say; that someone somewhere just ran a script to target all the Tanker AoEs with a current radius <15ft and automatically adjust their radius... and then the damage recalculation occurred automatically based on the above Area Factor design formula but they missed it and/or forgot to normalise it again afterwards.

[ZemX]

11 minutes ago, Maelwys said:

I am hoping; hoping I say; that someone somewhere just ran a script to target all the Tanker AoEs with a current radius <15ft and automatically adjust their radius... and then the damage recalculation occurred automatically based on the above Area Factor design formula but they missed it and/or forgot to normalise it again afterwards.

 

Seems reasonable.  Will stay tuned I guess.  I think you've already said this in the feedback thread, and I agree, they should do one or the other, but not both when considering Diminished Returns AND per-target damage reduction.  Foot Stomp essentially got this treatment, in fact, since it is only being impacted (compared to Live) by the diminished returns.  It has always suffered worse proc rates as a natural 15ft radius power and its damage hasn't been nerfed per-target, again, because its radius wasn't changed.

 

I suppose that's something at least for SS fans to hold on to as they remember Rage. 🥺

[Psyonico]

On 6/3/2025 at 3:59 PM, ZemX said:

They had the choice to increase radius without nerfing damage and DECIDED to nerf the damage... then not mention it in the feedback thread.

Are you sure the damage nerf is not part of the absolutely mentioned damage scaler nerf?

[Maelwys]

5 hours ago, Psyonico said:

Are you sure the damage nerf is not part of the absolutely mentioned damage scaler nerf?

 

What "absolutely mentioned" damage scalar nerf?

 

The only blanket adjustments to Tanker scalars I'm aware of are to Melee_Buff_Dmg (which affects Damage Buffs, like Rage and Build Up) and to Melee_Debuff_Res_Dmg / Ranged_Debuff_Res_Dmg (which affect Resistance Debuffs, like Evolving Armor and Melt Armor).
  

On 5/26/2025 at 12:53 PM, The Curator said:

---

 Tankers

• Self damage buff lowered from 1.0x to 0.875x.
• -Res modifiers lowered to match other melee ATs.

 

If there was a nerf to the "damage scalars" (Melee_Damage and Ranged_Damage - the ones that are used to determine the damage dealt by attack powers!) then you'd see that reflected on Brainstorm as reduced base damage for Single Target attacks and AoE attacks with a 15ft base range (like Footstomp) rather than just for smaller AoEs and Cones.
 

Edited 6 hours ago by Maelwys

[Warboss]

On 6/3/2025 at 4:28 PM, ZemX said:

I suppose that's something at least for SS fans to hold on to as they remember Rage. 🥺

 

Maybe they'll adjust to power name to "Kinda' Mad" from "Rage" to make up for the change...