Snarky Posted June 2 Posted June 2 Going back to the mists of time... Does anyone have the breakdown and dates of all the Brute Nerfs we have shouldered over the years?
Gobbledigook Posted June 2 Posted June 2 4 minutes ago, Snarky said: Going back to the mists of time... Does anyone have the breakdown and dates of all the Brute Nerfs we have shouldered over the years? Also a list of all the times Brutes have reminded us of said nerfs 🙃 5 1
merrypessimist Posted June 2 Posted June 2 1 hour ago, Gobbledigook said: Also a list of all the times Brutes have reminded us of said nerfs 🙃 Wouldn't that be the first number multiplied by ten thousand? 1 1
Erratic1 Posted June 2 Posted June 2 1 hour ago, merrypessimist said: Wouldn't that be the first number multiplied by ten thousand? That is a finite number. The question is which order of infinity are we talking here...countable or uncountable? 1
tidge Posted June 3 Posted June 3 2 hours ago, Snarky said: Going back to the mists of time... Does anyone have the breakdown and dates of all the Brute Nerfs we have shouldered over the years? Issue 1: The level cap for Tankers is increased to 50; the level cap for Brutes remains unchanged. 3 1 1 1
BZRKR Posted June 3 Posted June 3 So I went through the Homecoming Wiki's "Issues" pages and did a simple search for "brute" and noted what was found. Below is a simple cut and paste or summary of what I saw. This may not be everything, and I leave the "heavy handedness" of the entries to the reader. Please take a look yourselves if you think something is missing. +++ Issue 7 Visual f/x for Brute Invulnerability powers changed. They are now darker and more villainous. New Power Sets: Brute Primary - Electric Melee, Brute Secondary - Electric Shields Tanker, Scrapper and Brute Taunt powers will now accept Accuracy Enhancements. Note that these enhancements will have no effect in PvE, as the powers automatically hit PvE targets. The change is made strictly for PvP purposes. Brute Patron Powers added Issue 8 nothing Issue 9 nothing Issue 10 Added Brute buffs to Kheldians Fixed an issue with Brute Energy Punch which could cause it to generate Fury much faster than designed. Issue 11 Gave Brutes Willpower Issue 12 Gave Brutes Battle Axe, War Mace, and Super Reflexes Issue 13 Gave Shield Defense to Brutes Issue 14 nothing Issue 15 mothing Issue 16 Gave Brutes Claws Issue 17 nothing Issue 18 Brute Fury: Upper end Fury generation made more difficult to achieve, however, the loss of Fury at the lower ends was slowed down so that the Brute was more likely to keep some amount of Fury up. Higher rank foes help generate more Fury. Issue 19 nothing Issue 19.5 nothing Issue 20 nothing Issue 20.5 nothing Issue 21 Brutes get Katana, Broadsword, Regeneration Issue 21.5 nothing Issue 22 nothing Issue 23 nothing Issue 24 nothing Issue 25 Mercurial Blow for Brutes no longer applies Bruising on the target. Super Reflexes for Tankers now has the correct taunt duration in the Evasion power. The Brute version was already correct. Scrapper and Brute Quills.Barb_Swipe should now play the correct animation on the foe hit when using customized Spines. Issue 26 Changes to Tankers and Brutes including inherent powers Gauntlet and Fury. Brute: Ranged and Melee damage modifiers are now equal at 0.75. Damage buff cap lowered from 775% to 700%. All Brute and Tanker Epic pools now use ranged damage modifiers. Note that due to the above changes, Epic Pools should see no damage change at all. Beta Decay (Tanker, Scrapper, Brute, Blaster): the "first target" 10% recharge buff should no longer erroneously stack for all foes in range. The 2.5% per target recharge buff will continue to stack as expected. Max recharge buff with 10 targets should be +35%. Brute > Fury: Fixed a bug where some auras would passively grant the brute small amounts of +Fury. Fixed the Tanker and Brute Global Taunt Proc not triggering on aura powers. Staff Melee > Precise Strike: Brute version should no longer list twice that it accept Taunt enhancements. A strange Fury power should no longer show up in the Brute enhancement slotting screen. Fix bug where Brute PunchVoke was not triggering on aura powers. Brute Melee > Battle Axe > Cleave: Max targets reduced from 10 to 5 rute > Katana > Golden Dragonfly: Max targets reduced from 10 to 5 Tanker and Brute inherent taunt procs now generate a combat message for the caster, to help determine if the taunt proc is currently working. Ice Melee > Frozen Fists (Brute/Stalker/Scrapper) Power Description should no longer say it adds -res. Gauntlet and Punchvoke changes: https://homecoming.wiki/wiki/Issue_26_Page_4#Tanker_&_Brute_Changes Katana (including Brute Katana) gets "no redraw" Shadow Maul (Tanker, Scrapper, Brute, Stalker) is now a much larger, faster cone that's actually capable of easily hitting multiple targets - especially on tanks! Arc increased from 45 to 120 degrees Recharge increased from 8 to 11 seconds Cast Time reduced from 3.07 to 2.35 seconds Damage lowered from scale 2.156 to 1.6184 DPS reduction is minor, it has only been lowered from scale 0.653 to scale 0.645 Target Cap increased from 5 to 10 for Scrappers, Brutes and Stalkers Issue 27 Added taunt slotting to many PBAoE's Scrapper | Brute > Energy Aura > Energy Cloak > Fixed a bug where the stealth was not suppressing in combat, preventing the taunt aura from working Brute | Tanker > Martial Arts > Eagle's Claw: Damage buff from this power should no longer be affected by enemy level Brute > Regeneration > Fast Healing: This version of the power should no longer ignore healing enhancements Invincibility (Tanker/Brute/Scrapper) - This power now adds a 1.67% toxic and psionic defense for the first target, and 0.33% for additional targets (total 5% against 10 foes, Tanker values). Resist Energies (Tanker/Brute/Scrapper) - This power now adds psionic resistance. Energy Protection (Brute/Scrapper) - This power now grants Psionic resistance. Overload (all ATs) - This power now grants 33.75% toxic and psionic defense (Brute values). Tank & Brute/Stone Armor/Granite Armor: Now suspends the other Stone Armor armor toggles in the set while transformed instead of deactivating them. Also will suspend travel toggles (Run, Jump and Fly). Suspended toggles cost no endurance while running. Brute/Radiation Melee/Atom Smasher: Was using Smashing Attack, this is now set to Toxic Attack. This power doesn't do smashing damage. Brute/Stone Armor/Earth's Embrace: Changed the +Max HP effects' stack type to Replace. Brute/Titan Weapon/Defensive Sweep (Slow): Was missing its endurance cost. Now set to the intended 5.356 Brute/Dark Melee/Shadow Punch: Description fixed. Battle Axe power order changed Brute > Melee: Fixed a sorting mistake in with the Spines powerset listing in the character creator. Brute > Fiery Aura > Burn: Fixed a bug while using Fiery Embrace that unintentionally created additional patches Soul Mastery/Summon Widow (Brute/Tanker): Can no longer slot ToHit Debuff Sets. Brute/Radiation Melee/Taunt: Now hits 5 targets (was set to 10 before). New Epic Pools were added for Brutes Many Epic Pool Adjustments Issue 28 nothing +++ 2
tidge Posted June 3 Posted June 3 1 hour ago, BZRKR said: So I went through the Homecoming Wiki's "Issues" pages and did a simple search for "brute" and noted what was found. Below is a simple cut and paste or summary of what I saw. This may not be everything, and I leave the "heavy handedness" of the entries to the reader. Thanks! This is basically what I did (years ago) to try to understand 'nerfs to Brutes'. The biggest one I see is the top value for Damage Buff... I'll leave it for others who routinely and consistently crossed from 700% towards 775% to say how they were affected. I remember many people being upset about 'massive nerfs', and maybe those players favored Brutes? The items in that category are (from memory): 1) Defense (& attack) typing changes which meant players chasing single resistances (for example S/L or F/C) became vulnerable to content that they had not been vulnerable to previously. 2) Fire melee set changes (that came to include Defense Debuffs), which was most noticeable for fire farmers 3) Changes to the in-game rewards, like scaling rewards of Empyrians, lvl 49 XP->Inf going away, conversion rates of Vanguard merits, etc... many of these were targeted at AE (and some non-AE) farm-ish activities for the economy of the game and nothing to do with performance. It's not a secret that in the early days of Homecoming, 'Farming with Brutes' was typically the default advice (for those who wanted to farm). I'm wondering the 'nerfs to farming' have gotten confused with 'nerfs to Brutes'. None of the three changes I listed were targeted at Brutes, although #1 had a larger impact (from my memory) on ATs that were capable of exceeding a very high resistance cap. 1
Erratic1 Posted June 3 Posted June 3 12 minutes ago, tidge said: he biggest one I see is the top value for Damage Buff... I'll leave it for others who routinely and consistently crossed from 700% towards 775% to say how they were affected. I remember many people being upset about 'massive nerfs', and maybe those players favored Brutes? The items in that category are (from memory): I don't think anyone routinely crossed that short of being on teams featuring serious damage buffs ala Fulcrum Shift stacked with others.
tidge Posted June 3 Posted June 3 9 minutes ago, Erratic1 said: I don't think anyone routinely crossed that short of being on teams featuring serious damage buffs ala Fulcrum Shift stacked with others. That was my guess, but I know there was a lot of discussion earlier in the HC life about how to 'gobble reds', so I wasn't sure if some combination Inps+SelfBuff+Incarnates of solo builds were doing it. Any guesses as to why the cap was dropped? This feels (to me) like something that might have been included to make "Hard Mode" types of content (where a couple of Kins and large spawns might appear) moar hard.
Erratic1 Posted June 3 Posted June 3 23 minutes ago, tidge said: Any guesses as to why the cap was dropped? This feels (to me) like something that might have been included to make "Hard Mode" types of content (where a couple of Kins and large spawns might appear) moar hard. My understanding is that at cap a Brute would outdamage a similarly capped Scrapper. The oft stated claim was that dps is all Scrapper brought.
DrunkFlux Posted yesterday at 01:53 AM Posted yesterday at 01:53 AM On 6/3/2025 at 4:20 AM, BZRKR said: So I went through the Homecoming Wiki's "Issues" pages and did a simple search for "brute" and noted what was found. Below is a simple cut and paste or summary of what I saw. This may not be everything, and I leave the "heavy handedness" of the entries to the reader. Please take a look yourselves if you think something is missing. +++ Issue 7 Visual f/x for Brute Invulnerability powers changed. They are now darker and more villainous. New Power Sets: Brute Primary - Electric Melee, Brute Secondary - Electric Shields Tanker, Scrapper and Brute Taunt powers will now accept Accuracy Enhancements. Note that these enhancements will have no effect in PvE, as the powers automatically hit PvE targets. The change is made strictly for PvP purposes. Brute Patron Powers added Issue 8 nothing Issue 9 nothing Issue 10 Added Brute buffs to Kheldians Fixed an issue with Brute Energy Punch which could cause it to generate Fury much faster than designed. Issue 11 Gave Brutes Willpower Issue 12 Gave Brutes Battle Axe, War Mace, and Super Reflexes Issue 13 Gave Shield Defense to Brutes Issue 14 nothing Issue 15 mothing Issue 16 Gave Brutes Claws Issue 17 nothing Issue 18 Brute Fury: Upper end Fury generation made more difficult to achieve, however, the loss of Fury at the lower ends was slowed down so that the Brute was more likely to keep some amount of Fury up. Higher rank foes help generate more Fury. Issue 19 nothing Issue 19.5 nothing Issue 20 nothing Issue 20.5 nothing Issue 21 Brutes get Katana, Broadsword, Regeneration Issue 21.5 nothing Issue 22 nothing Issue 23 nothing Issue 24 nothing Issue 25 Mercurial Blow for Brutes no longer applies Bruising on the target. Super Reflexes for Tankers now has the correct taunt duration in the Evasion power. The Brute version was already correct. Scrapper and Brute Quills.Barb_Swipe should now play the correct animation on the foe hit when using customized Spines. Issue 26 Changes to Tankers and Brutes including inherent powers Gauntlet and Fury. Brute: Ranged and Melee damage modifiers are now equal at 0.75. Damage buff cap lowered from 775% to 700%. All Brute and Tanker Epic pools now use ranged damage modifiers. Note that due to the above changes, Epic Pools should see no damage change at all. Beta Decay (Tanker, Scrapper, Brute, Blaster): the "first target" 10% recharge buff should no longer erroneously stack for all foes in range. The 2.5% per target recharge buff will continue to stack as expected. Max recharge buff with 10 targets should be +35%. Brute > Fury: Fixed a bug where some auras would passively grant the brute small amounts of +Fury. Fixed the Tanker and Brute Global Taunt Proc not triggering on aura powers. Staff Melee > Precise Strike: Brute version should no longer list twice that it accept Taunt enhancements. A strange Fury power should no longer show up in the Brute enhancement slotting screen. Fix bug where Brute PunchVoke was not triggering on aura powers. Brute Melee > Battle Axe > Cleave: Max targets reduced from 10 to 5 rute > Katana > Golden Dragonfly: Max targets reduced from 10 to 5 Tanker and Brute inherent taunt procs now generate a combat message for the caster, to help determine if the taunt proc is currently working. Ice Melee > Frozen Fists (Brute/Stalker/Scrapper) Power Description should no longer say it adds -res. Gauntlet and Punchvoke changes: https://homecoming.wiki/wiki/Issue_26_Page_4#Tanker_&_Brute_Changes Katana (including Brute Katana) gets "no redraw" Shadow Maul (Tanker, Scrapper, Brute, Stalker) is now a much larger, faster cone that's actually capable of easily hitting multiple targets - especially on tanks! Arc increased from 45 to 120 degrees Recharge increased from 8 to 11 seconds Cast Time reduced from 3.07 to 2.35 seconds Damage lowered from scale 2.156 to 1.6184 DPS reduction is minor, it has only been lowered from scale 0.653 to scale 0.645 Target Cap increased from 5 to 10 for Scrappers, Brutes and Stalkers Issue 27 Added taunt slotting to many PBAoE's Scrapper | Brute > Energy Aura > Energy Cloak > Fixed a bug where the stealth was not suppressing in combat, preventing the taunt aura from working Brute | Tanker > Martial Arts > Eagle's Claw: Damage buff from this power should no longer be affected by enemy level Brute > Regeneration > Fast Healing: This version of the power should no longer ignore healing enhancements Invincibility (Tanker/Brute/Scrapper) - This power now adds a 1.67% toxic and psionic defense for the first target, and 0.33% for additional targets (total 5% against 10 foes, Tanker values). Resist Energies (Tanker/Brute/Scrapper) - This power now adds psionic resistance. Energy Protection (Brute/Scrapper) - This power now grants Psionic resistance. Overload (all ATs) - This power now grants 33.75% toxic and psionic defense (Brute values). Tank & Brute/Stone Armor/Granite Armor: Now suspends the other Stone Armor armor toggles in the set while transformed instead of deactivating them. Also will suspend travel toggles (Run, Jump and Fly). Suspended toggles cost no endurance while running. Brute/Radiation Melee/Atom Smasher: Was using Smashing Attack, this is now set to Toxic Attack. This power doesn't do smashing damage. Brute/Stone Armor/Earth's Embrace: Changed the +Max HP effects' stack type to Replace. Brute/Titan Weapon/Defensive Sweep (Slow): Was missing its endurance cost. Now set to the intended 5.356 Brute/Dark Melee/Shadow Punch: Description fixed. Battle Axe power order changed Brute > Melee: Fixed a sorting mistake in with the Spines powerset listing in the character creator. Brute > Fiery Aura > Burn: Fixed a bug while using Fiery Embrace that unintentionally created additional patches Soul Mastery/Summon Widow (Brute/Tanker): Can no longer slot ToHit Debuff Sets. Brute/Radiation Melee/Taunt: Now hits 5 targets (was set to 10 before). New Epic Pools were added for Brutes Many Epic Pool Adjustments Issue 28 nothing +++ You missed one. Brute max damage was 850% before fury changes in issue 18. Every min/maxer was flatout saying brutes were the ultimate class up till then, we weren't kidding then. 1
Psyonico Posted yesterday at 02:16 AM Posted yesterday at 02:16 AM On 6/2/2025 at 5:16 PM, tidge said: Issue 1: The level cap for Tankers is increased to 50; the level cap for Brutes remains unchanged. I know you’re just joking, but at CoV launch, villain ATs were limited to 40. I think Grandville was released in i7 1 What this team needs is more Defenders
LightMaster Posted yesterday at 03:24 AM Posted yesterday at 03:24 AM (edited) On 6/3/2025 at 1:27 PM, tidge said: Thanks! This is basically what I did (years ago) to try to understand 'nerfs to Brutes'. The biggest one I see is the top value for Damage Buff... I'll leave it for others who routinely and consistently crossed from 700% towards 775% to say how they were affected. I remember many people being upset about 'massive nerfs', and maybe those players favored Brutes? The items in that category are (from memory): 1) Defense (& attack) typing changes which meant players chasing single resistances (for example S/L or F/C) became vulnerable to content that they had not been vulnerable to previously. 2) Fire melee set changes (that came to include Defense Debuffs), which was most noticeable for fire farmers 3) Changes to the in-game rewards, like scaling rewards of Empyrians, lvl 49 XP->Inf going away, conversion rates of Vanguard merits, etc... many of these were targeted at AE (and some non-AE) farm-ish activities for the economy of the game and nothing to do with performance. It's not a secret that in the early days of Homecoming, 'Farming with Brutes' was typically the default advice (for those who wanted to farm). I'm wondering the 'nerfs to farming' have gotten confused with 'nerfs to Brutes'. None of the three changes I listed were targeted at Brutes, although #1 had a larger impact (from my memory) on ATs that were capable of exceeding a very high resistance cap. 12 hours ago, DrunkFlux said: You missed one. Brute max damage was 850% before fury changes in issue 18. Every min/maxer was flatout saying brutes were the ultimate class up till then, we weren't kidding then. Don’t forget, Brute’s Fury affect all of the Brute’s damaging power, not just Melee. If the Brute AT retain their 850% or even 800% Damage Bonus Cap today, not even a well-built Blaster can keep it up in DPS because of the obscene combination of typical Melee pain, decently high survivability and on top of that, capacity of high ranged damage via Temporary Powers (Envenomed Daggers and Plasmatic Taser being two big examples), or from the Power Pool like Arcane Bolt and almost all of the PPP powers for the Brute. Compare that to a Corruptor, the AT that just happens to be well-rounded yet deadly AT thanks to great DPS, decent survivability and aggro control, and of course Buff/Debuff secondary set. But not so immensively good that it made other ranged Archetypes redundant / useless just by existing. And the Defender AT, while much less damaging than even Controllers, compensates with unparalleled buffs/debuffs, numerically at least. And their damage are still decent enough to finish off a job or get a random Minion off their back. So neither the Defender nor Corruptor overshadow each other completely either. I don’t think even today Homecoming’s Tanker would be able to be a viable alternative if Brute can deal an obscenely high amount of DPS other than greater aggro control and better survivability. EXTRA: Maybe a new thing exclusive to Brutes to take further advantage of Fury, is allowing them to pick at least two alternative Ranged AoE / Cone options from their Melee sets that is mutually exclusive with a true Melee one (i.e. Inferno instead of Greater Fire Sword), but are mutually exclusive so if you pick the AoE / Cone option, you can’t pick the Melee version from the same level availability. This is akin to Sentinel’s mutually exclusive Practiced Brawler and Master Brawler. Flavor-wise, brutal fighters aren’t all about melee all the time, so they can and will throw things, shoot things, cause a ranged earthquake, etc. And in CoX, Black Scorpion, the Arachnos Patron that represents the Brute back in CoV, is armed with arm cannons and tail-cannon for ranged attacks, alongside his brute force and durable armor, despite player Brutes not officially having this capacity unless they pick an APP or a PPP. While you may argue that giving more Ranged attacks to Brutes as “mutually exclusive options” for Melee counterparts will make it overlap with Sentinel, keep in mind that Sentinel are designed, or are in practice, made for DPS over survivability while focusing on Range, while Brute still have a big focus on Melee and, while not a top dog for Melee DPS, have second best survivability among ATs next to the Tanker. It’s more making the Brute the opposite of Blasters; big melee with capacity of using ranged powers without needing to access of Epic Power Pools. As an aside Sentinel themselves don’t have access to Melee powers unless using an APP or a PPP so there’s that. Edited yesterday at 02:20 PM by LightMaster Added an extra 1
tidge Posted yesterday at 03:44 PM Posted yesterday at 03:44 PM It would be too much of a change to the perception and mechanics of Brutes, but this would be my suggestion: if Brutes debuffed enemies in PBAoE as they built Fury instead of self-buffing damage, that would be a somewhat unique mechanic that would allow the Brutes to "hit harder" and have a place on teams. Obviously this wouldn't appeal to anyone who thinks one-dimensionally along the lines of "Hulk get angrier and hits harder", but in terms of game mechanics it would be an alternative to "melee DPS". 1
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