MAKE ENDURACE A NON ISSUE

[Greycat]

http://progressquest.com/

[Heatstroke]

I looked at some of the discussion on this thread. This is exactly the reason that I wrote this guide.

 

Endurance is purposefully in the game to be a limiting factor. This type of mechanic is in many types of games. Some games (like fighting games) you cant use a power until you build up a reserve. There are games with magic use and spells you cant cast unless you have enough " mana ", etc etc. Ive played TTRPG/PNP Superhero games since the early 80s and you have to have endurance or stamina to use your powers and you have to account for that usage. Its a COMMON game mechanic that is not exclusive to CoH at all. 

One of the most common things that I see is a misunderstanding of what happens as you level. Powers get MORE expensive to use. Yes that MEGA AoE Attack that you use.. Yes it costs a lot of end.. You got hasten so you can use it more often? Well guess what.. now your burning through your end more often.. AND when Hasten shuts down guess what.. End Cost when it shuts off because your " exhausted " 

You MUST learn how to build your characters.. You HAVE to... Its critical to being effective.. LEARN the mechanics of the game. There are mechanics built in the game to HELP YOU overcome some of the limitations.. 

Now this madness about playing a WP Tank and attacking 3-5 times and your end bar being totally drained??  Someone is doing something serious wrong.. Now  I admit I have an end game centric build with IOs ( and this is part of learning HOW to build your character ) but my WP/SS tank with his Incarnate shut off            ( because Vigor has end redux ) and rage on Auto.. so it will cause a rage end crash when it shuts down. 

 

With ELEVEN toggles running ( including focused accuracy ) and cycling the end heaviest powers every time that came up.. it took SIXTY ONE attacks before my end bar died... 

I took my TW/EA Scrapper and attacked a dummy in RWZ..  That build is mostly AoE attacks.. With hasten running and cycling the AOE attacks as much as I could it took 40 attacks before my end bar completely crashed out.. and that was with running TEN Toggles

 

Thats not using any End reducing Incarnate powers or Ageless Destiny Incarnate power. 

and NONE of my builds use the Atlas Medallion or the Portal Jockey Accolade powers that give you more end..

 

Read the guide.. hope the tips help. And there are people that have more tips that me.. 

 

And LEARN to build your characters.. Seriously.. 

Edited Monday at 09:57 AM by Heatstroke

[tidge]

1 hour ago, Heatstroke said:

And LEARN to build your characters.. Seriously.. 

 

A harsh, but fair closing statement. The game offers many ways to "play like an over-powered hero" and not run out of Endurance.

[baster]

I'm currently at work and won't be in town for couple of weeks to see exactly what I got there. Going by memmory. I do believe I have 1x recharge slotted in 3 or 4 of my powers with IOs. In any case thank you all for your input and suggestions. I see eat I can do to remedy the situation. 

 

Worst case I guess I take out the recharge and slot 2x -reduction for now. 

[baster]

7 hours ago, Ukase said:

Not me. CoH is the only MMO I've played, unless you count Risk Online and chess as MMOs. (I don't count the week after CoH shut down that I tried Champions online.) 



As far as endurance goes, different AT's and powersets will have different struggles with it. The key is to actually know how much end your attacks cost you, compared to your ability to recover it. This is why I pursue Atlas Medallion as soon as reach level 23. 

I monitor endurance recovery and end usage. I aim for a different of  2% or more. And this is with all toggles on. But, it's a blaster, so it's already like a cheat code. 

Now, as easy as these solutions to end management are - that doesn't make them fun for everyone. But - there are parts of the game that aren't terribly fun for me, either. But, I deal with it to play the other parts of the game. 

I think you have to pick your battles, and given all the solutions available, I don't see you winning this one. 

 

 

You never played WoW ??? WooiWoo you must be last of maybe 3 gamer humans left alive that haven't yet play WoW at some point.   Well good for you because that means when you deside to dive in, you are in for a treat. I mean it's only the best MMORPG in history of human kind.

I strongly suggest WoW classic up to and including the Litch King expansion.

 

As for Champions, ya I did that as well and couple other lesser here games. Got depressed on how much of a letdown it was comparing it to CoH/CoV and gave up on it. CoH was thr clear Dimond in the rough even though I only got couple of toons in to 30s before game was no more.

 

Thus game to this day has still do much to offer and is sk unique that with some imagination and investment from a rich folk it could be put back on the map amd legitimate contented for one of today's top most still in my opinion.

 

Obviously graphics updates, innovation , new dungeons and raids etc.. etc.. maybe even armor peaces and sets with stats eventually and I think we have a winner.

 

Problem is I think that people who have this vision don't have the money and the ones who have the money don't have the vision. 

[baster]

On 6/28/2025 at 4:47 AM, Steampunkette said:

I've been playing this game almost 20 years.

 

Attacks get one accuracy SO, first, so my end isn't wasted. If the cost of the power is 8-10 it gets one end reduction. If it costs more it gets two.

 

Toggles get their defensive functions first, up to 3, then 2 End mods.

 

Later I go back with MidsReborn and design an IO Build for set bonuses... Ostensibly.

 

At this point I mostly just make the build before the character. >.> But those have long been my SO Slotting Rules!

 

And if you wanna get FANCY with it, toss a Performance Shifter +Endurance into Stamina and a Panacea +Health +Endurance into Health.

 

Then take 3 seconds between fights to occasionally use the Rest power instead of rushing 3 spawns in a row without any kind of time recovering End and HP.

 

Your endurance issues will be gone outside of Sappers and Super Stunner fights.

Fantastic. Thank you for your experienced driven wisdom. I will add another edn reducer to my attacks and I think you are right that might solve the issue and take me to 50, as several Axe attacks take 15+ end per swing

[Ukase]

31 minutes ago, baster said:

 Well good for you because that means when you deside to dive in, you are in for a treat.

I'm sure you mean well, but there is no way I will ever play that game. There's nothing appealing to me. 

[Ultimo]

1 hour ago, baster said:

You never played WoW ??? WooiWoo you must be last of maybe 3 gamer humans left alive that haven't yet play WoW at some point.   Well good for you because that means when you deside to dive in, you are in for a treat. I mean it's only the best MMORPG in history of human kind.

I strongly suggest WoW classic up to and including the Litch King expansion.

 

As for Champions, ya I did that as well and couple other lesser here games. Got depressed on how much of a letdown it was comparing it to CoH/CoV and gave up on it. CoH was thr clear Dimond in the rough even though I only got couple of toons in to 30s before game was no more.

 

Thus game to this day has still do much to offer and is sk unique that with some imagination and investment from a rich folk it could be put back on the map amd legitimate contented for one of today's top most still in my opinion.

 

Obviously graphics updates, innovation , new dungeons and raids etc.. etc.. maybe even armor peaces and sets with stats eventually and I think we have a winner.

 

Problem is I think that people who have this vision don't have the money and the ones who have the money don't have the vision. 

Heh.  I've never played WoW either, and I still remember PONG.  Heck, I remember when I had to play OUTSIDE!  Great resolution, the gameplay was a bit dull.

 

I think part of the problem is that there is a distinct inequality, or at least inequity where endurance is concerned.  As I said originally, Defenders, Dominators and Tankers seem to suffer issues more than others, while Blasters and Brutes seem to have much less problem.  As I said before, I think that endurance costs should be relative to the EFFECT.  If a Blaster attack does 10 damage, and the Defender version does 5, then the Defender version should use HALF the endurance.

[baster]

43 minutes ago, Ukase said:

I'm sure you mean well, but there is no way I will ever play that game. There's nothing appealing to me. 

Well, just like this game, it has many classes, much better character progression, talen trees, tons of dungeons, raids, balanced pvp system, and over all extremely robust endgame.  Getting to max level is where the jurney begins.

O ya snd you get to ride horses, other animals, monstrosities and ride flying dragons. What is not to like.

 

And 100 milion registered accounts by the year of our lord 2014

Edited Monday at 12:52 AM by baster

[baster]

9 minutes ago, Ultimo said:

Heh.  I've never played WoW either, and I still remember PONG.  Heck, I remember when I had to play OUTSIDE!  Great resolution, the gameplay was a bit dull.

 

I think part of the problem is that there is a distinct inequality, or at least inequity where endurance is concerned.  As I said originally, Defenders, Dominators and Tankers seem to suffer issues more than others, while Blasters and Brutes seem to have much less problem.  As I said before, I think that endurance costs should be relative to the EFFECT.  If a Blaster attack does 10 damage, and the Defender version does 5, then the Defender version should use HALF the endurance.

You should defenitly try WoW classic. 

Fantastic character progression, talent trees, different animation per race, racial abilities, rideable horses, and crap ton of other mounts both ground and air, vast number of dungeons, raids and people to team with to experience them all. 

Extremely active and well balanced pvp.

I mean there is a reason WoW has been and still is the #1 MMORPG since it's launched.  I would still be playing it if I had time  unfortunately that game is best for people that are unemployed or retired.

 

As for endurance I don't know why it even exists or hase to be a thing in this game, I mean we already have cooling on a lot of powers, si just add more cool downs and adjust some things and turn the damn endurance to a %chance proc bar or plus damage or 100% crit chance of double dot damage or whatever once full for 15-30 seconds and rinse and repeat. Thats what i would do if i owned this game.

 

Hell if i win a powerball i buy it, do that snd much more to tirn it in to modern mmorpg whilr preserving all the things that peopke love about it other then the endurance bar haha

[Rudra]

13 minutes ago, baster said:

You should defenitly try WoW classic. 

Fantastic character progression, talent trees, different animation per race, racial abilities, rideable horses, and crap ton of other mounts both ground and air, vast number of dungeons, raids and people to team with to experience them all. 

Extremely active and well balanced pvp.

I mean there is a reason WoW has been and still is the #1 MMORPG since it's launched.  I would still be playing it if I had time  unfortunately that game is best for people that are unemployed or retired.

This is not an advertisement board for other games.

 

14 minutes ago, baster said:

As for endurance I don't know why it even exists or hase to be a thing in this game, I mean we already have cooling on a lot of powers, si just add more cool downs and adjust some things and turn the damn endurance to a %chance proc bar or plus damage or 100% crit chance of double dot damage or whatever once full for 15-30 seconds and rinse and repeat.

@El D and @Heatstroke both did an exemplary job of explaining this.

 

16 minutes ago, baster said:

Thats what i would do if i owned this game.

 

Hell if i win a powerball i buy it, do that snd much more to tirn it in to modern mmorpg whilr preserving all the things that peopke love about it other then the endurance bar haha

The code is available to download. You can do that if you want.

[baster]

7 minutes ago, Rudra said:

This is not an advertisement board for other games.

 

@El D and @Heatstroke both did an exemplary job of explaining this.

 

The code is available to download. You can do that if you want.

If only i ware a coder, and had the time and resources to start a new server i would absolutely do that. 

As it stands we have a better shot at getting Elon addicted to CoH and maybe then he can spend  some spare change to modernize and expend this game to new hights. 

That would certainly be unbelievable.

 

As for advertising other ganes. WoW is one of the few that hardly needs advertising i think. This is just my honest gamer to gamer recommendation, as Im now in my 50s and having been a life long gamer i think WoW is defenitly one game that everyone that haven't played it yet should try. Especially WoW Classic.

Edited Monday at 01:30 AM by baster

[Jacke]

4 hours ago, baster said:

You never played WoW ??? WooiWoo you must be last of maybe 3 gamer humans left alive that haven't yet play WoW at some point.   Well good for you because that means when you deside to dive in, you are in for a treat. I mean it's only the best MMORPG in history of human kind.

 

I've never played WoW.  But I played SWTOR (AKA WoW in Spaaaaaaaaaccccce!) at launch.  And WoW isn't the best MMORPG.

 

City of Heroes is.  And Homecoming is the best version of City.

 

 

[MTeague]

4 hours ago, Ultimo said:

Heh.  I've never played WoW either, and I still remember PONG.  Heck, I remember when I had to play OUTSIDE!  Great resolution, the gameplay was a bit dull.

Real Life has Amazing graphics, and the world just goes on forever. Attention to detail is stellar.  The GM's are really non-responsive, though. 

[MTeague]

I played WoW from the start of Burning Crusade until the end of Draenor.  I get nostaligic for it, and some of the camraderie of a good raiding guild sometimes. But Never Again. Ever. WoW started to consume my life. It's one reason I will not join any SG in CoH, ever.  I pug and that's that.  I get twitchy if I even start to have a "regular" crowd of pugs, and I don't accept global friend invites. I play on my schedule, only, and if I take a 4 month break from the CoH, I am not answerable to anybody. 

[Azari]

Meanwhile I’m playing an Axe/Invuln scrapper that’s borderline unplayable without fully +5 slotting everything, using psi mastery, incarnates, and accolades. 🤣 

[Ultimo]

So I did Positron 2 with a group tonight, using a L23 Shield/Broadsword Tanker.  He also has the Fighting Toggles.  That means his toggles are Deflection, Battle Agility and Against All Odds, and then Tough and Weave.  He has three attacks, Hack, Slice and Parry, and Active Defense.  Each attack has 1 endurance reduction and accuracy, each toggle has 1 endurance reduction, and Stamina has 2 slots.  The least costly attack is Parry, which is 2 endurance.  All the other attacks are around 6 endurance each.  The toggles also have minimal endurance costs, 0.15/s each.

 

I spent the whole task force gasping for air.  Granted, there were lots of clockwork draining endurance, but I've been told in other threads they don't actually drain enough endurance to be noticeable....  My point is, the character was frequently left fighting enemies with BRAWL, because he just had NO endurance to work with.  Even when it came time to fight the Circle of Thorns, he was out of endurance after about 2 minion enemies, each one using about half of his total bar to defeat.  That's just not much fun, as I've said before.  I have all these cool powers, but I couldn't use any of them... and it wasn't much fun.  I must have used close to 60 or 70 blue inspirations over the course of the whole thing (mostly against the clockwork), which seems to me to be kind of excessive.  As I said before, Tankers really seem to suffer more than some other classes.

 

In any case, I thought about this thread the whole time, so I thought I would share the experience.  Take from it what you will.

[Ukase]

46 minutes ago, Ultimo said:

Take from it what you will.

So, I've got a Shield/mace tank. And it's certainly gone through the task forces. While I do have memories of gasping for endurance as you mentioned, perhaps you left sprint on? Or could the TF leader have snuck in some crazy challenge setting? And my other question would be - are you using the Panacea and Miracle IOs? 

[baster]

5 hours ago, Jacke said:

 

I've never played WoW.  But I played SWTOR (AKA WoW in Spaaaaaaaaaccccce!) at launch.  And WoW isn't the best MMORPG.

 

City of Heroes is.  And Homecoming is the best version of City.

 

 

I agree that CoH is very hood game stillneven after all this years and minimal development. Wander what this game could be in the old WoW dev team took it over and developed it.

 

Inplayed SWOTOR as well forb a while, great story arcs and voice acting  especially the sith warrior and imperial agent. To bad they didnt do a better job with graphics right from the get go.

[Heatstroke]

12 hours ago, tidge said:

 

A harsh, but fair closing statement. The game offers many ways to "play like an over-powered hero" and not run out of Endurance.

 

It wasnt meant to be harsh. But honestly the game has many tools it in to help you become SUPER.. Logically if you are a new starting hero, you will become more powerful as you progress and get stronger and learn how to use your powers and abilities better..  All the different enhancements, SOs, IOs, ATOs, Hami-Os, Icarnate abilities, Accolades. and the multiple different ways of getting them.. Drops, Spending Influence/Infamy on The Markets, Reward and Emp Merits, I means its really all there.. 

Mids Reborn.. A community designed hero planner that has been around for 20 years to help people learn how to make characters more effective, and the community itself with so manty players who have made builds and written guides to help others.. 

It really is at your fingertips.. Eric Clapton said it... " It's in the way that you use it " if you chose not to use all the different things that in place.. well......

[Snarky]

On 6/27/2025 at 7:01 AM, baster said:

From a perspective of a new/returning player. 

Endurance is far to much of an issue, it takes away from make enjoyment big time especially in low to mid levels as you aquire your last few powers. 

 

Example Axe with WP secondary. 

Both stamina and whatever the name of the WP power power that increases endurance recovery, I have both slotted with SOs all my Axe attacks are slotted with SOs endurance reduces and I still blow through it within  1.5-2 rotations and unable to attack. What ta he'll? How is this enjoyable?, finally you get your top powers only to not be able to use them because the endurance costs are do out of whack?

 

I'm sure there will be plenty of veterans jumping in here having years of experience unlimited influance all sorts of enhancements sets bonuses telling me how this isn't an issue. Well I'm looking at it from a new/returning players perspective and I can tell you it takes away from the game enjoyment in a big way. 

 

From all the ways a game can be balanced this one is balanced around endurance starvation? Why? Powers have cool down already, on top we need to be endurance starved? 

 

I know not all power sets are as bad as this one, some are much more reasonable , but honestly this needs to be fixed and brought foen to manageable/enjoyable levels in my opinion. 

 

It's a game after all amd fun&enjoyment should be it's #1 focus not frustration.

 

I like to hear from a log of NEW and ir Returning players mostly here rather them a poop loads of have it vets to share their perspective on the endurance issue.

complaining about Endurance on a Willpower Armor character....

 

wow.

 

I am sure dozens of good solutions have been offered in this thread.  hundreds?  as well as the importance for game balance (in all games) of energy/mana resources.  

 

but to complain about endurance on a Willpower Armor?

[Heatstroke]

53 minutes ago, Snarky said:

complaining about Endurance on a Willpower Armor character....

 

wow.

 

I am sure dozens of good solutions have been offered in this thread.  hundreds?  as well as the importance for game balance (in all games) of energy/mana resources.  

 

but to complain about endurance on a Willpower Armor?

 

 

As I said.. while I realize my build is a level 50 maxed character.. It took me SIXTY attacks with rage crashes to kill the end bar on my WP/SS tank with all the incarnates turned off and he has no accolades to help with endurance,, 

[tidge]

I've also never played WoW. I don't think I could even participate in a conversation along the lines of "someone who has never played WoW describes it."

 

3 hours ago, Ultimo said:

So I did Positron 2 with a group tonight, using a L23 Shield/Broadsword Tanker.  He also has the Fighting Toggles.  That means his toggles are Deflection, Battle Agility and Against All Odds, and then Tough and Weave.  He has three attacks, Hack, Slice and Parry, and Active Defense.  Each attack has 1 endurance reduction and accuracy, each toggle has 1 endurance reduction, and Stamina has 2 slots.  The least costly attack is Parry, which is 2 endurance.  All the other attacks are around 6 endurance each.  The toggles also have minimal endurance costs, 0.15/s each.

 

I spent the whole task force gasping for air.  

 

Take from it what you will.

 

My diagnosis: You have too many toggles at level 23... and you are expecting them to do too much at low levels. Shield is a positional defense set, so you may not even need most toggles, depending on how you are playing. Tough is a poor choice, considering it is only S/L. When I take it, I almost never toggle it on. 

 

My Shield/ Battle Axe went as follows. Notice I'm also 3-powers deep into a pool, but aside from the travel power none is a toggle.

 

01 Deflection

01 Chop

02 Battle Agility

04 Gash

06 Mighty Leap

08 Weaken Resolve

10 Active Defense

12 Phalanx Fighting <- This is an Auto

14 Against All Odds <- This is a 1-slot wonder, and somewhat optional

16 Taunt

18 True Grit <- This is an Auto

20 Pendulum

22 Wall of Force

[arcane]

I think we can all agree that World of Warcraft is for muggles and other unwashed masses 

[Maelwys]

4 hours ago, Ultimo said:

So I did Positron 2 with a group tonight, using a L23 Shield/Broadsword Tanker.  He also has the Fighting Toggles.  That means his toggles are Deflection, Battle Agility and Against All Odds, and then Tough and Weave.  He has three attacks, Hack, Slice and Parry, and Active Defense.  Each attack has 1 endurance reduction and accuracy, each toggle has 1 endurance reduction, and Stamina has 2 slots.  The least costly attack is Parry, which is 2 endurance.  All the other attacks are around 6 endurance each.  The toggles also have minimal endurance costs, 0.15/s each.

 

I spent the whole task force gasping for air. 

I'm guessing it looks something like this?





Whenever it could look more like this:



With Parry to fall back on I really wouldn't recommend getting Weave (particularly at lower levels) as softcapping your Melee Defense is trivial. Whilst stacking S/L resistance (Tough and True Grit/Deflection) is definitely worthwhile... IMO that's a "later on in the build" thing when you have more Enhancement slots and the Might of Tanker ATO and the two +Res Globals. At low-levels my focus would be on melee defense plus regeneration/healing procs; and making sure my (few!) attacks hit reasonably hard.

Shield is also a very easy framework for 5x LotG +rechs; and you can fit them in early (as shown above) so your attacks and Active Defense could all be benefiting from almost a SO's worth of global +Rech with minimal investment.

But the main thing will be just getting Health and Stamina + your attacks all slotted properly. The rest can fall into place later.