The Idea Police

[Forager]

This subforum has earned a reputation for being a shit place to post ideas. It is suffering from an artificial, user imposed sanction on interesting or productive conversation.

 

Can we get a dev or mod opinion on any of these points? It would go a long way to fostering discussion here.

 

1. The dev's time and ability is an uninteresting and unhelpful talking point that comes up in a ridiculous number of threads. The people who cite it rarely have any idea what they're talking about and use it as a catch all way to "vote" no.

 

2. We are not voting. Posters will often reply something akin to "I'm ok with it..." or "it's a no..." like they're voting. The difference between voting no and saying what you don't like about an idea is subtle, but important for discussion.

 

3. Shooting down ideas is just not a thing. The only person who should be shooting down ideas is the person paying for them. Conversations with naysayers are short, unproductive and not very fun. You can like or dislike an idea, but if you can't think of a way to improve upon an idea and don't want to try, you should not be part of the discussion.

 

There's a handful of very confused posters that don't understand these things and they are ruining conversations and discouraging people from posting their ideas. I don't know that they'll necessarily understand any of this, but a tidy mod opinion on it couldn't hurt. If the ideas flow freely, you're more likely to hear a good one.

[Troo]

 

just kidding

[Troo]

 

I agree that the Suggestions section behavior could be much better. My post above while a joke is totally unacceptable and should be removed. The linked above has tips, lays out expectations, and recourse. All suggestions should be encouraged.

 

Homecoming has stated: "Suggestions and Feedback is one of our most important forums."

 

[Rudra]

27 minutes ago, Forager said:

Can we get a dev or mod opinion on any of these points? It would go a long way to fostering discussion here.

I'm not a dev, but there are some things you don't seem to understand about the forums, so I'm going to reply to you.

 

27 minutes ago, Forager said:

1. The dev's time and ability is an uninteresting and unhelpful talking point that comes up in a ridiculous number of threads. The people who cite it rarely have any idea what they're talking about and use it as a catch all way to "vote" no.

The devs are all unpaid volunteers devoting their free time to working on the game. They still have their jobs and families to deal with. The devs are free to accept any suggestion they want regardless of how any of the rest of us feel about said suggestion. However, there is nothing prohibiting us from either pointing out that the devs having limited time and/or availability to work on a suggestion. There is also no prohibition on anyone stating whether or not that person feels a suggestion is worth a dev's limited time to work on. No one can speak for a dev other than that dev, but that does not mean others are not allowed to take the devs' position into consideration for their replies.

 

27 minutes ago, Forager said:

2. We are not voting. Posters will often reply something akin to "I'm ok with it..." or "it's a no..." like they're voting. The difference between voting no and saying what you don't like about an idea is subtle, but important for discussion.

Correct, we are not voting on any suggestion, unless that suggestion includes a poll. However, saying things like "I'm okay with it" or "it's a no" is a declaration of how that poster feels about the suggestion. So if someone says anything like "it's a no"? That is that person stating their opposition to the idea. Which is a perfectly valid way to give an opinion on something. And as the "Concerning this forum" pinned thread says, we don't have to give a reason why we oppose a suggestion.

 

27 minutes ago, Forager said:

3. Shooting down ideas is just not a thing. The only person who should be shooting down ideas is the person paying for them. Conversations with naysayers are short, unproductive and not very fun. You can like or dislike an idea, but if you can't think of a way to improve upon an idea and don't want to try, you should not be part of the discussion.

Everyone is free to post any responses to any suggestions they want as long as they are not attacking the person making the suggestion. Naysayers most definitely have a part in any suggestion discussion. We play the game too. So we get as much say in a suggestion as the person making the suggestion. Just because the person that posts a suggestion really, really, really likes their suggestion does not mean anyone else does. And since those suggestions will impact all of us, we all get a say as response. In the end it is up to the devs to decide what they will or won't work on. And those in favor of and against the suggestion get a voice about everything because again, we all play this game and we all will be affected by what is added to it.

 

Edited Thursday at 05:21 PM by Rudra
Edited to correct "th6e" to "the" and "n" to "on". And again to add missing quotation mark.

[megaericzero]

Feedback about how to run this subforum should be posted in the dedicated Website Suggestions & Feedback subforum. ☝️🤓

 

For the record, I'm being facetious.

[arcane]

Show us on the doll where the disagreement hurt you

[skoryy]

Actual suggestion: If you can't diable 'Winner Of The Day' functionality, then hand out timeouts to posters blatantly posting trollbait to 'win the day'.

 

ADDED: Or at least make it so that I can't see the posts by anyone I've put on my ignore list.

Edited Thursday at 05:30 PM by skoryy

[El D]

The dev team's time and availability is always a relevant consideration because it's a limited resource and without their taking action there is no new content of any sort for Homecoming. If we're just going to hypothesize without any consideration for the logistics of how an idea could actually be implemented, the potential return on investment of dev time, or the practical need/playerbase desire for it, we might as well just post stuff like 'What if every time you killed a mob, the game gave the player donuts?' or 'Why doesn't Homecoming sponsor an international PvP E-sports league and build their own arenas?'

Edited 8 hours ago by El D

[battlewraith]

11 minutes ago, El D said:

The dev team's time and availability is always a relevant consideration because it's a limited resource and without their taking action there is no new content of any sort for Homecoming. If we're just going to hypothesize without any consideration for the logistics of how an idea could actually be implemented, the potential return on investment of dev time, or the practical need/playerbase desire for it, we might as well just post stuff like 'What if every time you killed a mob, the game give the player donuts?' or 'Why doesn't Homecoming sponsor an international PvP E-sports league and build their own arenas?'

 

There would be more merit in that imo. What we have right now is a miniscule subset of the population that weigh in on what they want and what they think the devs want. 

The mere fact that a suggestion basically has to conform to some sort of feasibility study is a big deterrent to actually making any sort of suggestion. Which I think people here implicitly get--the point for them is to reject things that can't be implemented easily or that they don't want (ie the dozen or so that probably regularly do this). 

 

That defeats the point of having a suggestion forum. Do the opposite. Encourage people to drop ideas. No matter how crazy or impractical. Use that as data to determine trends that are reflective of the types of things in which the larger playerbase is interested. Stop fixating on individual proposals that people find fault in and then just summarily dismiss--wasting the feedback and making people far less likely to tell you want they want.

[Skyhawke]

I'd like to hear more about this donut idea. 🍩

[Forager]

1 hour ago, Rudra said:

There is also no prohibition on anyone stating whether or not that person feels a suggestion is worth a dev's limited time to work on.

 

Right. I'm not saying it's prohibited. I'm saying it's stupid.

 

1 hour ago, Rudra said:

The devs are free to accept any suggestion they want regardless of how any of the rest of us feel about said suggestion.

 

Right. I'm not talking about your feelings. I'm talking about your wild, uninformed guesses about their feelings. 

 

1 hour ago, Rudra said:

Naysayers most definitely have a part in any suggestion discussion.

 

Who told you that? Lol.

[Forager]

26 minutes ago, battlewraith said:

The mere fact that a suggestion basically has to conform to some sort of feasibility study is a big deterrent to actually making any sort of suggestion.

 

It's a super weird thing to do... and people treat it like it's their job. It would be one thing if they were experts of any kind... but then again a person with expertise typically hears potential and looks for solutions, rather than poke holes.

 

Professionally, people that default to shooting things down are often called slugs because they're trying to avoid work... but these folks aren't even the ones doing the theoretical work.

[Forager]

1 hour ago, El D said:

The dev team's time and availability is always a relevant consideration because it's a limited resource and without their taking action there is no new content of any sort for Homecoming.

 

Not to us. And that's what I'm asking them to weigh in on.

 

My guess is that if they were honest about it is they would say something like "Yeah... we really don't need you to do that... and you probably shouldn't... because you have no idea what you're talking about."

 

They might try to be nicer about it.

[arcane]

The way the “Speed Boost is basically rape” guy has suddenly decided to cosplay as the normal and reasonable one cracks me up. Where can I subscribe. 

[tidge]

[Forager]

2 hours ago, Troo said:

The linked above has tips, lays out expectations, and recourse.

 

I suspect that post was made in an attempt to address some of this behavior, but it's a little too optimistic, in my opinion.

[Rudra]

20 minutes ago, Forager said:

2 hours ago, Rudra said:

Naysayers most definitely have a part in any suggestion discussion.

 

Who told you that? Lol.

SUGGESTIONS

Suggestions are broad and varied in scope, difficulty (in both discussing as well as the work in carrying it out) and form.  And the players making suggestions have all sorts of backgrounds and perspectives.  With that in mind, to keep talk in here productive:

 

<snipped for clarity>

 

You have the right to respond CONSTRUCTIVELY to an idea.

If you don’t like it, no problem.  Just say “I don’t like it”.  You don't have to say why if you don’t want to.  If you have a reason why you don’t like it, please tell us why.  Focus your response on the idea, not the person. 

 

 

I made the relevant part larger for emphasis.

 

Edit: Maybe you should take the time to read through the "Concerning this forum" pinned thread. It is there for a reason.

 

Edited Thursday at 07:27 PM by Rudra

[Forager]

14 minutes ago, Rudra said:

I made the relevant part larger for emphasis.

 

Weird, because it isn't relevant to my suggestion.

 

14 minutes ago, Rudra said:

Edit: Maybe you should take the time to read through the "Concerning this forum" pinned thread. It is there for a reason.

 

I've read it. I understand it. What I'm saying here, in this thread is that there are posters who fundamentally misunderstand what a suggestion means and how to discuss it. It's a related, but different thing. I'm suggesting a few bullet points to help the people struggling, so they can stop being such an obstacle to discussion. 

Edited Thursday at 07:41 PM by Forager

[Enamel_32]

"I don't like it" on its own and without any particular reasoning isn't constructive feedback, it's just feedback.

[Forager]

1 minute ago, Enamel_32 said:

"I don't like it" on its own and without any particular reasoning isn't constructive feedback, it's just feedback.

 

Yeah, and it can be ignored pretty easily. My quarrel isn't with that sort of post.

[Rudra]

11 minutes ago, Forager said:

Weird, because it isn't relevant to my suggestion.

It is relevant to all suggestions. Everyone gets to respond to any suggestion they want. Whether to support it or to oppose it or to express indifference to it or anything else. Noone  gets to tell others who may or may not respond to their posts on a forum.* This is a public forum. It is a public forum for a reason. That means everyone that is part of this community gets to express their opinions on any posts no matter how much the poster may not want it.

 

Deal with it.

 

Edit:

* - This isn't entirely true. GMs most definitely can stop people from posting on the forums. They can't stop people from posting to specific threads/suggestions, but they can definitely stop people from posting at all.

 

Edited Thursday at 07:46 PM by Rudra

[Forager]

2 minutes ago, Rudra said:

Everyone gets to respond to any suggestion they want.

 

Of course.

 

2 minutes ago, Rudra said:

That means everyone that is part of this community gets to express their opinions on any posts no matter how much the poster may not want it.

 

Ok?

 

2 minutes ago, Rudra said:

Deal with it.

 

Dealt with.

 

Maybe you're confused. Do you think I'm suggesting that people not post? Far from it. I'm arguing for education, not censorship. I think that the people who do this don't know how stupid it is. I think if a dev said "yeah that's stupid" but in a nice way, the people that do this stuff might believe it and rethink their methods... because a dev said it. These types love citing a dev.

 

Net result: more people posting more opinions.

[PeregrineFalcon]

3 hours ago, Forager said:

Can we get a dev or mod opinion on any of these points? It would go a long way to fostering discussion here.

Sure. Here's a post made by a mod where they specifically explain how this forum works. Please pay special attention to the part where the mod specifically says we're allowed to disagree with suggestions.

 

3 hours ago, Forager said:

1. The dev's time and ability is an uninteresting and unhelpful talking point that comes up in a ridiculous number of threads. The people who cite it rarely have any idea what they're talking about and use it as a catch all way to "vote" no.

I agree with you on this.

 

3 hours ago, Forager said:

2. We are not voting. Posters will often reply something akin to "I'm ok with it..." or "it's a no..." like they're voting. The difference between voting no and saying what you don't like about an idea is subtle, but important for discussion.

Of course we're not voting. No one here believes that we are. But that's simply an artifact of language. You're nit picking the way people phrase their posts. Not everyone is a lawyer who picks their words carefully so as to be certain that you don't have a specific adjective to hand your objection on. The mod post above specifically says "Assume Good Will." So just take their post how it's meant instead of arguing semantics.

 

3 hours ago, Forager said:

3. Shooting down ideas is just not a thing.

Sure it is. I shoot down ideas all the time. I'm allowed to do that. If you don't like it then feel free to log in to your moderator account and sanction me.

 

3 hours ago, Forager said:

There's a handful of very confused posters that don't understand these things and they are ruining conversations and discouraging people from posting their ideas. I don't know that they'll necessarily understand any of this, but a tidy mod opinion on it couldn't hurt. If the ideas flow freely, you're more likely to hear a good one.

I hate to say it but you're the one who's confused. Everything you're saying I can't do a moderator has already specifically said that I am allowed to do. And, since you're not a moderator, you have no say in the matter. You keep asking for a mod's opinion, but I've already linked you to a post with the official opinion of the mods. It's no one's fault but your own if you choose not to read it.

 

CASE DISMISSED!

[Krimson]

The forums are primarily useful for reading announcements if you don't use Discord. That's the function the forums serve. Everything else is a memory hole.

[Ghost]

58 minutes ago, Forager said:

 

 

 

They might try to be nicer about it.

Coming from the person who frequently includes insults in their posts.

 

The main point of this topic just reeks of “only positive feedback should be allowed”.