The Idea Police

[Forager]

1 minute ago, Ghost said:

Nobody cares.

 

Well thats obviously not true lol.

 

 

[battlewraith]

4 minutes ago, Ghost said:

You think it’s stupid.  Guess what?  Nobody cares.

 

Actually people care , otherwise there wouldn't be a discussion. And there wouldn't be a history of similar discussions. 

It is stupid because people are conflating what you are permitted to do with how you should behave.

Of course people can disagree with how you should behave--but they at least could make a case for why a standard of behavior is preferrable. 

Instead, they clutch their pearls and act like they're being oppressed and silenced because they're getting pushback over something they are permitted to do. 

 

[Forager]

4 minutes ago, battlewraith said:

but they at least could make a case for why a standard of behavior is preferrable. 

 

A summary thus far. 

 

I said something was dumb and counterproductive.

 

Everyone argued that they were allowed to do it... over and over... with nobody.

 

A dev said they were allowed to do it.

 

People celebrated. You really can move the goalposts if you have enough help.

[tidge]

There were always four possibilities:

1. Devs think OP is correct and say nothing
2. Devs think OP is wrong and say nothing
3. Devs think OP is correct and says something
4. Devs think OP is wrong and says something

Only one of these things happened, and since the OP was postulated as "Can I get a dev to back me up?"... I think I can see who's trying to move the goalposts.

[Rudra]

39 minutes ago, Forager said:

 

A summary thus far. 

 

I said something was dumb and counterproductive.

 

Everyone argued that they were allowed to do it... over and over... with nobody.

 

A dev said they were allowed to do it.

 

People celebrated. You really can move the goalposts if you have enough help.

A more accurate summary of what happened:

 

You said people arguing dev time was unintersting and unhelpful. Also that the forums are not for voting. And also that shooting down ideas and not providing feedback to improve a suggestion had no place in suggestion discussions. While point 1 was the vocal subject matter of the debate, it is point 3, specifically as part of point 1, that was being argued.

 

Everyone argued that both points 1 and 3 were allowed. Over and over. With you. You just refuse to accept it.

 

A dev said people are allowed to argue dev time as part of his/her/their post(s) about a suggestion. The dev very specifically did not say if such an argument is or is not stupid to said dev or to other devs. Probably because doing so either way would directly impact suggestion discussions and the devs are interested in the suggestion discussions. They may or may not view said discussions as meaningful to their final decision, but the devs have stated that they read the threads and our discussions, and find value in that. (Edit: And to be clear, what I mean by directly impact is either encourage more such comments or discourage such comments. So weighing in on either side will impact discussions. Possibly changing how players respond to the suggestions. Which was your intent, in a negative direction.)

 

People celebrated because it was hoped that would finally end this endless back and forth. Except you keep beating this dead horse.

 

Point 1 is your opinion about how stupid an argument may be. Which you are brandishing with the obvious intent to end. Except per the GMs and a dev, as already stated in the pinned thread about how these forums work and what is expected, it does not matter how stupid you think an argument is. That argument can be made. It is allowed. And attempts to get it called stupid by the devs, with the obvious intent to end such discussions, did not work. Point 2 has already been put "paid" to, unequivocally, so you stopped arguing it. Point 3 was a non-starter from the get go, but you still seem intent on it. So my question to you is, with both GMs and a dev responding to you, not supporting your position no matter how much you want them to, what will it take to get you to stop trying to get a dev to say people's arguments are stupid and so should not be made? I'm sorry, you say that isn't what you are saying because you keep avoiding being clear. So instead, what will it take to get you to stop asking devs to declare perfectly valid and allowed arguments as stupid?

 

Edited 22 hours ago by Rudra

[Forager]

39 minutes ago, Rudra said:

You just refuse to accept it.

 

I accepted it. I accepted it over and over. I never didn't accept it. You are allowed to do it. You've always been allowed. You'll always be allowed. Nobody ever thought you weren't allowed. Nobody thinks you shouldn't be allowed. Everybody agrees you're allowed to do it. I've maintained this. I've repeated it. This reply might even seem familiar.

 

And yet... the argument persists... it's practically supernatural at this point. I'm very surprised that people would still type something like that and hit send.

 

You're allowed. You're allowed times a million. I just think it's stupid.

[Ghost]

1 hour ago, battlewraith said:

 

Of course people can disagree with how you should behave--but they at least could make a case for why a standard of behavior is preferrable. 

 

 

Why?

Is any answer they give going to be acceptable, or will it lead to more questioning?

 

For some odd reason, people feel like they are owed an explanation.  

Explain the emoji 😡

Explain the meme 😡

Explain your explanation 😡

 

 

 

Edited 21 hours ago by Ghost

[Rudra]

1 minute ago, Forager said:

 

I accepted it. I accepted it over and over. I never didn't accept it. You are allowed to do it. You've always been allowed. You'll always be allowed. Nobody ever thought you weren't allowed. Nobody thinks you shouldn't be allowed. Everybody agrees you're allowed to do it. I've maintained this. I've repeated it. This reply might even seem familiar.

 

And yet... the argument persists... it's practically supernatural at this point. I'm very surprised that people would still type something like that and hit send.

 

You're allowed. You're allowed times a million. I just think it's stupid.

You are still either missing or ignoring the point. It does not matter if you think someone's argument, regardless of what it may be, is stupid. Think that all you want. The issue is that you came in asking a dev to support your opinion for the @Forager stated purpose of curtailing or ending those comments. And even with a dev specifically avoiding making such comments, either in favor of the arguments you think are stupid or against the arguments you think are stupid, you are still trying to get a dev, any dev, to publicly state how they feel about such arguments knowing full well how a dev's stated stance about a given argument will affect general suggestion discourse.

[Forager]

3 minutes ago, Rudra said:

And even with a dev specifically avoiding making such comments, either in favor of the arguments you think are stupid or against the arguments you think are stupid, you are still trying to get a dev, any dev, to publicly state how they feel about such arguments knowing full well how a dev's stated stance about a given argument will affect general suggestion discourse.

 

I asked the guy... then I... what?

 

And even if I was "still trying" whatever that means... so? You actually outlined reasons to try... you said I think it's stupid, you said the dev avoided answering, and you said I know that a dev's stated stance will affect discourse... yeah... what? Lol.

 

Yeah. You've got it. I think people should quit using that argument. I think if a dev said people should stop using that argument, that some of them would stop. Right. You got it. Right on. Nailed it. That's my position.

 

And to try and avoid going around again,

 

YOU CAN STILL BE ALLOWED TO MAKE THE ARGUMENT IF YOU DESIRE.

 

I fully support your free speech and right to make... any... kind of argument.

[battlewraith]

It's pretty easy to illustrate the object of the criticism with a hypothetical. 

Just imagine you had a small group of people, maybe 8 people, that voiced this boilerplate concern about dev time on every single suggestion. Every time you started reading one, you're wading through this stuff. And if players called them out on it, they would repeat this mantra--"hey this is a legitimate concern and I am permitted to post it."

 

My gut tells me that some of the people clutching their pearls here would change their tune pretty quickly. They would be looking to the mods to do something.

Or maybe not, maybe they would try to ignore these people. But the damage would be done. It would not be a cool hangout. Normal people without an axe to grind would not spend much time in that subforum. 

 

I think the actual reality is not much different. The threads you typically see are narrow in scope, practical, and mundane. One that goes over will might have 20 replies--in a game that has hundreds of thousands of players. Threads that want something substantial or different or just even something hilariously stupid get the feasibility treatment. They are torn down by the hobgoblin of little minds. It has the joy of a hallway at the DMV. Now with a framed picture of Rudra on the wall. It's not uncommon to hear people joke about suggestions being a wasteland and I think some people will try to get things going in general discussion instead. 

[Rudra]

1 minute ago, Forager said:

 

I asked the guy... then I... what?

 

And even if I was "still trying" whatever that means... so? You actually outlined reasons to try... you said I think it's stupid, you said the dev avoided answering, and you said I know that a dev's stated stance will affect discourse... yeah... what? Lol.

 

Yeah. You've got it. I think people should quit using that argument. I think if a dev said people should stop using that argument, that some of them would stop. Right. You got it. Right on. Nailed it. That's my position.

 

And to try and avoid going around again,

 

YOU CAN STILL BE ALLOWED TO MAKE THE ARGUMENT IF YOU DESIRE.

 

I fully support your free speech and right to make... any... kind of argument.

🙄

[battlewraith]

12 minutes ago, Ghost said:

For some odd reason, people feel like they are owed an explanation.  

 

If you don't want to talk, why you here mang?

Also, I am permitted to ask questions no?

[arcane]

oh they’re still at it

 

Edited 20 hours ago by arcane

[PeregrineFalcon]

1 hour ago, Forager said:

I just think it's stupid.

Is that why you keep participating?

[Ghost]

1 hour ago, battlewraith said:

 

If you don't want to talk, why you here mang?

Also, I am permitted to ask questions no?

Since you asked…

No

 

However, if you are too compelled not too, just remember these rules….

 

1.  Only agree with me

2.  No voting allowed

3.  If your only going to criticize and not improve the conversation, you should not be a part of it.

 

 

 

🤭

Edited 19 hours ago by Ghost

[battlewraith]

 

[Forager]

43 minutes ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

Is that why you keep participating?

 

A bit of a non sequitur there... but answering in good faith: I'm participating in the conversation because I started it and I want to.

[MTeague]

When people have spent multiple pages arguing about what they're arguing about, there is no longer any productive use for this thread.

Please lock.

[lemming]

Pigeons and chess

[skoryy]

3 hours ago, arcane said:

oh they’re still at it

 

"Some men, Mr. Sinclair, can't be bought, bullied, reasoned, or negotiated with. Some men just want to watch the forums burn."

[Steampunkette]

This is a bad thread which began as whining has been circling the drain since OP decided to hit send. He doesn't seem capable of synthesizing outside information or reading other people's posts with any kind of attempt to understand. Only to reply. At this point a quarantine is the only possible method of containment.

 

Which is to say:

 

In before threadlock and all that.

[Shin Magmus]

   As a Shin Grambulax Master I feel this thread has run its course and will now be locking it to further replies.  There is a startling lack of being excellent to each other, despite GM GooglyMoogly's efforts.  However, we will be addressing the very valid and correct concern about Dominator Sonic Assault having incorrect debuff values and durations relative to the same powers in Sonic Attack.  Good day.

[battlewraith]

The OP started the thread in response to people stifling conversations in the suggestions forum.

What followed was a reframing of the discussion in terms of censorship and what people were permitted to say.

Now, you have people dropping in, declaring that it's unproductive, and requesting that it be locked.

 

The irony and double standards present here are something you seldom see outside of government. 

If you don't understand why a thread like this starts, pay attention to how it ends. That shows you all you need to know.

 

 

[Krimson]

2 minutes ago, battlewraith said:

The OP started the thread in response to people stifling conversations in the suggestions forum.

What followed was a reframing of the discussion in terms of censorship and what people were permitted to say.

Now, you have people dropping in, declaring that it's unproductive, and requesting that it be locked.

 

The irony and double standards present here are something you seldom see outside of government. 

If you don't understand why a thread like this starts, pay attention to how it ends. That shows you all you need to know.

Sadly, everyone but the original poster knew how this thread would end.

[shortguy on indom]

5 hours ago, battlewraith said:

It has the joy of a hallway at the DMV.

HA!