The Idea Police

[El D]

1 hour ago, Ultimo said:

For example, I might suggest making the Pistols animations from the Mastermind Thugs set available to Dual Pistols for Blasters and the like, as alternate animations (for those who dislike the silly, flippy regular animations).  It LOOKS like it should be easy to do... but I really don't KNOW.  Maybe it is.  Maybe it isn't.  Maybe they could do it in an hour.  Maybe it would take a week.  Or a month.  I don't KNOW.  Only the Devs know, and only they can decide if the time needed is worth spending.

 

No we don't know the exact amount of time spent, but we do have a pretty solid record of what the devs have done and some semblance of the timeframe it was done in. With that in-mind, alternate animations are, relatively speaking, probably on the 'comparatively easy if still time consuming' side. Especially so compared to a suggestion like 'have the devs build an entirely new iron man/death-means-deletion version of the whole game then put up and maintain a new server for that entirely separate code base.' There are suggestions we can reasonably assume the devs can do within our limited understanding of their availability, mostly because those suggestions are variations of things they've already done before or build on time intensive things they've already implemented. It's the suggestions with seemingly no consideration of time required at all that'd take a fully staffed professional team working full time ages to do, which some posters still expect to be fully considered or debated, where the issue comes in.

 

Sure, we can just suggest whatever, irrespective of difficulty or time investment, and leave it up to the devs to pick what they want. Ultimately the devs will do as they like anyways, as you said. However, that's not going to change the practical reality that given the devs' schedule and interest is limited, the suggestions that'd take excessive amounts of time and effort beyond the things we know they've done or might be willing to do probably aren't going to happen. It's the catch that's left us in the square of 'some players objecting because they feel their ideas are always ignored or shot down,' some players skipping over 'lots of people told them that specific idea was intensive and time consuming and probably wasn't going to happen and they kept going in spite of that because the players weren't devs.'

 

Also, really, the framing of 'we don't know the exact amount of time/effort it'd take, so we should just ignore that part' - in-particular coming from the person who made the suggestion yet who isn't one of the people that'd be spending any time or effort implementing it - is, to me, a sign the suggester doesn't actually care about how much time or effort it'd take. If more posters considered how reasonable their suggestions were to implement rather than just demanding we debate an idea that is somehow both a pure hypothetical with no time constraints and also something they actually want to see happen at some point, we'd probably have less complaints.

 

Edit - I got too wordy and @Bionic_Flea basically summarized my thesis on the prior page. 'Swhat I get for not being bionic, I guess. Or a flea.

Edited 22 hours ago by El D

[Ultimo]

1 hour ago, Ghost said:

This sort of thing is exactly what this has been about.  This post is completely worthless.  If you don't like what's being discussed, don't read the thread.

[Shin Magmus]

1 hour ago, Forager said:

Would anyone care to take a stab at my actual point? I'm saying it's pointless to discuss something that you have no knowledge of, and the arguments have been "but we're allowed!" and now "but some people do know about it!"

.....

 

   I feel like people did, 10 pages ago in this thread.  Ultimately, nothing will change, and the GMs will not suddenly start moderating these mythical "idea police" differently.  My advice was to give up hope on anything changing.  That wasn't a joke, it was my actual advice.

[Forager]

1 hour ago, Bionic_Flea said:

This is a lot of pages that essentially boils down to:

 

Ehh... it's not a terrible summary, but the reason it went so long was the whole "allowed" thing. I said it was stupid and we shouldn't do it... but they spent all these pages arguing that they're allowed to. That was never on the table, but lots of folks wanted to imagine it there.

 

So yeah, I do think it's stupid and people shouldn't do it. (BUT YOU'RE ALLOWED TO!!!)

 

[Ghost]

19 minutes ago, Ultimo said:

This sort of thing is exactly what this has been about.  This post is completely worthless.  If you don't like what's being discussed, don't read the thread.

That’s not very nice of you, Mr “everyone should be nice”.

🙄

[battlewraith]

1 minute ago, Ghost said:

That’s not very nice of you, Mr “everyone should be nice”.

🙄

Niceness died in the wake of your foul memes sir.

🫠

[Ghost]

3 minutes ago, battlewraith said:

Niceness died in the wake of your foul memes sir.

🫠

Foul?  Lolol

Tell me you don’t think this thread has turned into the proverbial “beating a dead horse” at this point.

 

 

[Rudra]

21 minutes ago, Forager said:

 

Ehh... it's not a terrible summary, but the reason it went so long was the whole "allowed" thing. I said it was stupid and we shouldn't do it... but they spent all these pages arguing that they're allowed to. That was never on the table, but lots of folks wanted to imagine it there.

 

So yeah, I do think it's stupid and people shouldn't do it. (BUT YOU'RE ALLOWED TO!!!)

 

You hold the opinion that an argument is stupid. You made a thread seeking to get dev support to validate your opinion. You stated you made that thread with the purpose of getting people to stop making those arguments. How else is anyone supposed to take this entire thread and your arguments in it?

 

You can think something being said is stupid all you want. Trying to get dev or GM validation for that? Especially with the intent to try and get those comments stopped? That is just asking for pushback on.

[Shin Magmus]

Google this guy's Moogles.

[Forager]

16 minutes ago, Rudra said:

You hold the opinion that an argument is stupid. You made a thread seeking to get dev support to validate your opinion.

 

Yes. Right. Great job. That is what is happening.

 

18 minutes ago, Rudra said:

How else is anyone supposed to take this entire thread and your arguments in it?

 

No other way. That's what I said. That's what I meant. You are spot on. You understand it exactly. You're crushing it.

 

19 minutes ago, Rudra said:

That is just asking for pushback on.

 

Ooh, so close. I expected pushback. In a way, by suggesting something like this, I am inviting it. I'm saying that something people do is stupid. Of course there will be pushback. I just expected the pushback to be about how it's not stupid.

 

[battlewraith]

5 minutes ago, Ghost said:

Foul?  Lolol

Tell me you don’t think this thread has turned into the proverbial “beating a dead horse” at this point.

 

 

 

This community is so old, and so crotchety that almost everything is "beating a dead horse" the minute you open your mouth. You just don't realize it yet.

 

Simply put, the issue for me is what purpose the suggestions forum serves. 

If it's an aid to development then I think it's demonstrably horrible. A small tweak or proliferation of an existing power gets mentioned and then 4 years later something gets implemented. Maybe. 

 

If it's about player engagement and community it seems unnecessarily bad. A band of grognards lurks in the shadows to tear apart ideas that are too fanciful or impractical (or that they just don't like, let's not forget). This is drives away bold ideas, which in my view is a loss. No impact on the game, but makes that subforum stale and dreary. I don't think it's unreasonable to ask the mods/devs/whatever to tweak things. 

 

Change the name of the subforum to something like "minor improvements". Or suggest to the usual suspects that they simply lighten up. It might be fun to speculate about a unicorn themed AT.

Fun.....there's that word again....

[skoryy]

1 hour ago, Rudra said:

How else is anyone supposed to take this entire thread and your arguments in it?

 

That its a troll thread? I thew him and battlewraith into the Ignore-O-Matic as well, if you're looking for more recommendations.

 

Another recommendation: Hungry Howie's. Sure, its easy bake pizza, but the flavored crusts are amazing.

[Ghost]

1 hour ago, battlewraith said:

 

This community is so old, and so crotchety that almost everything is "beating a dead horse" the minute you open your mouth. You just don't realize it yet.

 

Simply put, the issue for me is what purpose the suggestions forum serves. 

If it's an aid to development then I think it's demonstrably horrible. A small tweak or proliferation of an existing power gets mentioned and then 4 years later something gets implemented. Maybe. 

 

If it's about player engagement and community it seems unnecessarily bad. A band of grognards lurks in the shadows to tear apart ideas that are too fanciful or impractical (or that they just don't like, let's not forget). This is drives away bold ideas, which in my view is a loss. No impact on the game, but makes that subforum stale and dreary. I don't think it's unreasonable to ask the mods/devs/whatever to tweak things. 

 

Change the name of the subforum to something like "minor improvements". Or suggest to the usual suspects that they simply lighten up. It might be fun to speculate about a unicorn themed AT.

Fun.....there's that word again....

You know this, but I’ll say it anyways - I think you are expecting too much.

First, look how many suggestions there are daily.  It’s overwhelming.  That’s before even trying to sift through them to figure out if any have merit.

A lot really are bad suggestions, with the majority (imo) just being selfish wants with no actual consideration for anyone else.

 

Then you have to consider what the Devs already have in the planning stages.  I could be wrong, but it seems like it’s one Dev per section of the game.  
If they’ve already talked about, planned and are developing something, it wouldn’t make any sense to stop down because of a good and workable idea on the forums.  So anything they like probably gets added to a “to do” list.

 

To me, a couple years turn around seems about right taking these things into account.  
Of course I’m not in the industry, so I don’t know what expectations should be with the size of the team they have.  Maybe you know more? (Not being my usual trolling self here, genuinely don’t know your exp with things like this)

 

As for this forum.  
First off, could you imagine the tantrums if this section didn’t exist?

”why don’t they ask our opinion?”

”who do they think they are?”

So, I think it’s a necessary evil.

As for the “usual suspects” - several have been around since this launched.  A few have a genuine love for the lore and workings (Rudra for ex, whose knowledge of the lore is amazing.  So I understand his/her passion about wanting to preserve it).  
We’ve all seen the same type of requests from the same type of people over and over.  Those that just joined but want to change everything.  Those that are seemingly miserable with the game and want everyone else to be miserable.  Those that want what they want and how it affects everyone else is not something they care about.

Theres even a certain person in this thread who regularly posts suggestions to fix ATs/powers that he/she thinks suck - but absolutely refuses to accept any advice on what they are doing wrong.  Nope.  It would be better to adjust the game around their lack of understanding, then for them to actually listen and learn.

Just as you get frustrated with arguing, we get equally as frustrated.

 

The mods do a really good job of cleaning up when things get personal.  

There will always be criticism of any suggestion.  Criticizing or questioning is not an attack, and nor should it be discouraged.
 

 

Edited 19 hours ago by Ghost

[Rudra]

18 minutes ago, skoryy said:

 

That its a troll thread? I thew him and battlewraith into the Ignore-O-Matic as well, if you're looking for more recommendations.

 

Another recommendation: Hungry Howie's. Sure, its easy bake pizza, but the flavored crusts are amazing.

They both reside in the same place for me.

[biostem]

1 hour ago, battlewraith said:

This community is so old, and so crotchety that almost everything is "beating a dead horse" the minute you open your mouth. You just don't realize it yet.

 

Simply put, the issue for me is what purpose the suggestions forum serves. 

If it's an aid to development then I think it's demonstrably horrible. A small tweak or proliferation of an existing power gets mentioned and then 4 years later something gets implemented. Maybe. 

 

If it's about player engagement and community it seems unnecessarily bad. A band of grognards lurks in the shadows to tear apart ideas that are too fanciful or impractical (or that they just don't like, let's not forget). This is drives away bold ideas, which in my view is a loss. No impact on the game, but makes that subforum stale and dreary. I don't think it's unreasonable to ask the mods/devs/whatever to tweak things. 

 

Change the name of the subforum to something like "minor improvements". Or suggest to the usual suspects that they simply lighten up. It might be fun to speculate about a unicorn themed AT.

Fun.....there's that word again....

It is no different than any other suggestions box;  You put in your idea(s) with no expectation that they'll either be seen/read, much less implemented.  If they do?  Well then give yourself a pat on the back - you are literally game-changing.  The fact that anyone would think they deserve the developers' ear, or have a right to have their ideas lauded and/or implemented without question or challenge is the height of hubris...

[battlewraith]

2 hours ago, Ghost said:

Nope.  It would be better to adjust the game around their lack of understanding, then for them to actually listen and learn.

Just as you get frustrated with arguing, we get equally as frustrated.

 

Except you know the game will not be adjusted around their lack of understanding. The devs do things according to their agenda.

So the frustration you gave and received was for what exactly?

The constant insistence that there is little dev time to spend on big changes seems to go hand in hand with this fear that some fanciful idea presents an existential threat to the game if forum regulars aren't there to dismantle it.

 

2 hours ago, biostem said:

It is no different than any other suggestions box; 

 

Actually it seems very different. A suggestion box is a way to submit anonymous feedback so that people won't get backlash from coworkers, etc.

This is like having a bunch of people standing around the box and demanding you answer their criticisms, even though they have no say in the matter. 

If you refuse to do that, apparently it's hubris.

[biostem]

7 minutes ago, battlewraith said:

Actually it seems very different. A suggestion box is a way to submit anonymous feedback so that people won't get backlash from coworkers, etc.

This is like having a bunch of people standing around the box and demanding you answer their criticisms, even though they have no say in the matter. 

If you refuse to do that, apparently it's hubris.

No one is forcing you to post on these forums, nor mandating that you read others' feedback.  If you cannot handle feedback to your ideas on the internet, then do not post on the internet.  Also, not all suggestions boxes are anonymous.  In fact, many provide suggestion cards with a place to write your name and even contact info, (particularly the case if it is one for customer vs employee feedback, which is more analogous to what we are to the devs)...

[battlewraith]

8 minutes ago, biostem said:

No one is forcing you to post on these forums, nor mandating that you read others' feedback.  If you cannot handle feedback to your ideas on the internet, then do not post on the internet.  Also, not all suggestions boxes are anonymous.  In fact, many provide suggestion cards with a place to write your name and even contact info, (particularly the case if it is one for customer vs employee feedback, which is more analogous to what we are to the devs)...

 

So you're jumping tracks again. No one is forcing you to do this. I'm allowed to do that. None of that is in question. None of that is the point of the criticism. And it's already been answered earlier in the discussion. 

 

I'm perfectly fine handling online feedback. I have nobody on ignore, and kind of pity people that do. Once Rudra complained to me about me and it was heartbreaking.

 

2 hours ago, biostem said:

It is no different than any other suggestions box

 

32 minutes ago, biostem said:

Also, not all suggestions boxes are anonymous.

 

Need I say more? 

Also, the purpose of all such boxes is to provide a degree of anonymity, if not from the recipient of the suggestion then to the randos present in the area--thus cramming slips of paper into a box (prior to digital versions). 

[MTeague]

During my entire career,  I never considered any "suggestion box" to be anonymous. Even those that nominally are. At most,  it's a fig leaf of anonymity.

 

Leaving out identification by handwriting (we'll assume everyone uses a deskjet printer or the like), in a work environment, it's often not that hard to figure out who made a certain suggestion just by 

• the topic itself.  (people rarely suggest something that they have never mentioned to any other co-worker, and grapevines abound at workplaces)
• the phrasing.  people write in a particular way. I've had coworkers come across code comments in programs I haven't touched in 22 years, and they immediately know "Teague wrote that." and they're right.  Just because of phraseology. 
• work computers are all company property, and if anyone really, really, ticked someone off, I'm sure there are those with the skill to backtrack exactly which device sent something to which printers at which hours, and figure out where the suggestions came from. 

Now, most managers probably don't want to go to major extremes to figure these things out. 

But I never once put any suggestion in any question box until my mortgage was 100% paid off and I was debt-free.

[golstat2003]

7 hours ago, Forager said:

 

Yes. Right. Great job. That is what is happening.

 

 

No other way. That's what I said. That's what I meant. You are spot on. You understand it exactly. You're crushing it.

 

 

Ooh, so close. I expected pushback. In a way, by suggesting something like this, I am inviting it. I'm saying that something people do is stupid. Of course there will be pushback. I just expected the pushback to be about how it's not stupid.

 

 

That's exactly the pushback you got. You think it's stupid. Others disagree and have said so.

 

All opinion and no facts on either side.

 

Devs said it's not stupid. As far as I know it's only their opinion that matters despite the pages of discussion.

[golstat2003]

2 hours ago, MTeague said:

During my entire career,  I never considered any "suggestion box" to be anonymous. Even those that nominally are. At most,  it's a fig leaf of anonymity.

 

Leaving out identification by handwriting (we'll assume everyone uses a deskjet printer or the like), in a work environment, it's often not that hard to figure out who made a certain suggestion just by 

• the topic itself.  (people rarely suggest something that they have never mentioned to any other co-worker, and grapevines abound at workplaces)
• the phrasing.  people write in a particular way. I've had coworkers come across code comments in programs I haven't touched in 22 years, and they immediately know "Teague wrote that." and they're right.  Just because of phraseology. 
• work computers are all company property, and if anyone really, really, ticked someone off, I'm sure there are those with the skill to backtrack exactly which device sent something to which printers at which hours, and figure out where the suggestions came from. 

Now, most managers probably don't want to go to major extremes to figure these things out. 

But I never once put any suggestion in any question box until my mortgage was 100% paid off and I was debt-free.

 

Pretty much the same. I would advise anyone and everyone using suggestion boxes at work (digital or not) to assume they ARE NOT anonymous.

 

Also pretty much in every job I've been at the suggestion box has required you to put you department.

 

That in of itself is problematic.

 

Back on topic, unless we are willing to get the devs more resources or volunteers as devs ourselves, the time line for implementation of suggestions is what it is.

[Ghost]

8 hours ago, battlewraith said:

 

Except you know the game will not be adjusted around their lack of understanding. The devs do things according to their agenda.

So the frustration you gave and received was for what exactly?

The constant insistence that there is little dev time to spend on big changes seems to go hand in hand with this fear that some fanciful idea presents an existential threat to the game if forum regulars aren't there to dismantle it.

 

Same thing can be asked of you.

Decisions are not made based on whether a random poster says the Devs don’t have time.

So why does it bother you?

 

I don’t think most people feel there’s a potential threat. I just think certain people are so sick of the stupid requests (of which there are many), that they respond.

Others just enjoy the challenge of trying to tear down something that’s being built up.

 

Before you say “but it’s not productive”.  Well it’s no less productive than making ill conceived/selfish suggestions that more times than not are just rehashes of someone else’s ill conceived/selfish suggestion.

 

Edited 8 hours ago by Ghost

[Ghost]

8 hours ago, battlewraith said:

 

 

If you refuse to do that, apparently it's hubris.

It’s only hubris in your mind.

 

Ive said it a few times.

Post your suggestion and move on.  

Don’t get caught up in the back and forth, or trying to respond to every last criticism.

 

Don’t believe I have ever seen a Dev say “we refuse to incorporate any suggestion in which the OP does not vigorously defend their idea!”

 

Edited 8 hours ago by Ghost

[Forager]

5 hours ago, golstat2003 said:

Devs said it's not stupid.

 

Oh well that would clear it up. Could you quote that?

 

Edited 7 hours ago by Forager

[shortguy on indom]

• AI WILL PROLLY TAKE OVER MOST CODING GIGS IN THE NEAR FUTURE.
• WHAT DEV TIME?