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Posted
19 minutes ago, GM_GooglyMoogly said:

Because it's a way to brainstorm and crowd source.  Besides, sometimes it's fun to think about changes to a game we all love.

 

The gist of complaints like this are that there is a dynamic that makes it not fun. 

There is a subset of players that bring very restrictive expectations to the table. 

They are toxic to ideation. The perfect is the enemy of the good.

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Posted

If someone is being toxic, report them.  We do hand out warnings and timeouts when people step out of line.  

 

But mere disagreement is not toxicity.  You can accept or ignore the criticism.  You can mount a defense to the criticism. . . or not.

 

I understand that there are a handful of people that have problems with most suggestions. 

 

If you think their critique is invalid, ignore it.  But maybe your idea is not as great as you think it is if you cannot overcome the criticism.

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Posted
Just now, GM_GooglyMoogly said:

If someone is being toxic, report them.  We do hand out warnings and timeouts when people step out of line.  

 

But mere disagreement is not toxicity.  You can accept or ignore the criticism.  You can mount a defense to the criticism. . . or not.

 

I understand that there are a handful of people that have problems with most suggestions. 

 

If you think their critique is invalid, ignore it.  But maybe your idea is not as great as you think it is if you cannot overcome the criticism.

This!

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Posted
19 minutes ago, Forager said:

That is my target. That is the Idea Police. Their purpose is to say no. They start from there. It's a handful of posters who have demonstrated an easily discernible pattern.

There is no poster here that says no to everything. There are some posters who say no to ideas they think are bad ideas, but they also say yes to ideas they think are good ideas. So I think you might be describing imaginary people.

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Posted
33 minutes ago, Forager said:

It's a handful of posters who have demonstrated an easily discernible pattern.

Ok, and? Once again those handful of posters have been told, by a mod, that they're specifically allowed to do that. So your objection appears to me to be "people are doing something that a mod specifically said they're allowed to do and I don't like it!" Here, I'll even quote the relevant portion of the mod's post:

 

“Don’t leave your child unattended.”

In short, any suggestion made in this forum will be thoroughly examined by all of us, changed, ripped up, and added-on to until it’s possible that the resulting idea doesn’t resemble what you suggested in the first place.  You need to allow others to add more consideration to your idea.  If you find yourself having a problem with this, a good idea may be running your initial idea by friends first for feedback before sharing it here.

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Being constantly offended doesn't mean you're right, it means you're too narcissistic to tolerate opinions different than your own.

Posted
7 minutes ago, GM_GooglyMoogly said:

If you think their critique is invalid, ignore it.  But maybe your idea is not as great as you think it is if you cannot overcome the criticism.

 

That's great general advice. It doesn't address the concern that I am raising, though.

 

My concern is that a small, vocal minority is chasing away people who would like to engage in fun, lively and productive conversations about their ideas and suggestions. I believe that is something that can be improved.

 

Reporting them is not a solution because, generally, they're not breaking any rules. They're just being pedantic and negative. If you made a rule against that, you'd be pretty busy.

 

Ignoring them is not a solution because they will still have a negative impact on the forums.

 

My proposed solution is guidance and coaching from leadership.

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The D Squad  Arc ID: 68066 Content for Ex-criminals following Blue Spectrum and Officer Daniels after Galaxy City

These Ain't Your Daddy's Skulls!  Arc ID: 68427 (A Playtest Arc for a Complete redesign of The Skulls)

Posted
14 minutes ago, GM_GooglyMoogly said:

But maybe your idea is not as great as you think it is if you cannot overcome the criticism.

This pretty much sums it up.

 

If I say something is a bad idea and give a reason, you have 3 options as I see it:

 

1. Ignore my comment, or even put me on ignore

 

2. Respond to my comment as to why you think my thought process is wrong/bad/stupid/what have you.

 

3. Let my comment ruin your day.

 

This is the internet, you need to have some basic level of skin to go on with your day, just like you do in the real world. (Unless you just listen to echo chambers, which is not healthy).

 

I read the OP and thought to myself "You'd rather me just say 'this is a terrible idea' than for me to explain why I don't like or don't think an idea would work."

 

I usually explain why DB changes are unlikely to happen, not because I am a dev, but because I have ~10 years experience with DBs and DB management and understand that running an "alter column X" statement is a dangerous thing to do on live data. And since I have the basic ability to extrapolate my experience into other databases, I can safely say something like "changing maximum name length could potentially corrupt every line in the name table, and that's a risk I'd rather not have the devs take".

 

Now, which would you prefer if you were a newer forum poster, " That's a terrible idea" or my previous statement?

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Posted
5 minutes ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

Ok, and? Once again those handful of posters have been told, by a mod, that they're specifically allowed to do that. So your objection appears to me to be "people are doing something that a mod specifically said they're allowed to do and I don't like it!" Here, I'll even quote the relevant portion of the mod's post:

 

“Don’t leave your child unattended.”

In short, any suggestion made in this forum will be thoroughly examined by all of us, changed, ripped up, and added-on to until it’s possible that the resulting idea doesn’t resemble what you suggested in the first place.  You need to allow others to add more consideration to your idea.  If you find yourself having a problem with this, a good idea may be running your initial idea by friends first for feedback before sharing it here.

 

Well it looks like you're allowed to do your thing. But based on what Googly just said it looks like people are free to completely ignore your input and they aren't required to mount a defense to anything you say. So I guess the challenge is just to be excellent about it.

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Posted
2 minutes ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

So your objection appears to me to be "people are doing something that a mod specifically said they're allowed to do and I don't like it!"

 

If that's how you want to describe it, sure. It's a problem. I'm describing a problem. It's possible that something that isn't against a rule can still have a negative effect.

 

Would it be helpful for you if I reiterated once again that I understand that you are allowed to do this? I feel I've said this to you a few times and you are just sort of rewording your... objection? I have explained myself to you specifically more than once, so maybe we can just move on? You are allowed. You're allowed. You are totally allowed...

 

You don't have to tell me that again. I know that you're allowd. We ALL know you're allowed.

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Posted
1 minute ago, Forager said:

 

If that's how you want to describe it, sure. It's a problem. I'm describing a problem. It's possible that something that isn't against a rule can still have a negative effect.

 

Would it be helpful for you if I reiterated once again that I understand that you are allowed to do this? I feel I've said this to you a few times and you are just sort of rewording your... objection? I have explained myself to you specifically more than once, so maybe we can just move on? You are allowed. You're allowed. You are totally allowed...

 

You don't have to tell me that again. I know that you're allowd. We ALL know you're allowed.

And your arguments still read as "you are allowed, but you shouldn't be and it would be really helpful if a dev came on the forums to state such".

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Posted

I think the OP raises a point. I could be nicer about some of the things I don't like. And some folks - it's probably just things missing from the voice to text translation, but they just come off really abrasive. And really, there are some folks that will vote down on everything, no matter what it is. But that's just perception bias on my part, I'm sure. 

But to the OP's point - yes, feedback to an idea can take many forms, but do we need to state the obvious about dev time and their volunteer status? 
Now, in some cases, yeah, I think it's a valid thing to mention, because the ideas some of us have - we have no idea what it would take to implement them. 

 

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Posted
20 minutes ago, Forager said:

Ignoring them is not a solution because they will still have a negative impact on the forums.

 

If you hover over a name a little pop-up box comes up and on the bottom right is an "Ignore" button. 

 

image.png.0b22269b55de2d2d91b5eb5f27a2e2b6.png

 

If you used that on the handful of people that irk you, then you won't see their posts . . . until someone else quotes them.

 

Actually, I'm not sure.  Do you see quotes of people you have on ignore when sued by other posters?

Posted
11 minutes ago, Rudra said:

And your arguments still read as "you are allowed, but you shouldn't be and it would be really helpful if a dev came on the forums to state such".

 

They don't. I've consistently repeated that I'm suggesting guidance and coaching, opinions and suggestions, rather than rules. I've said it over and over, despite the intellectually dishonest claims otherwise. You've read, quoted and reacted to those posts.

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The D Squad  Arc ID: 68066 Content for Ex-criminals following Blue Spectrum and Officer Daniels after Galaxy City

These Ain't Your Daddy's Skulls!  Arc ID: 68427 (A Playtest Arc for a Complete redesign of The Skulls)

Posted
2 minutes ago, GM_GooglyMoogly said:

Do you see quotes of people you have on ignore when sued by other posters?

 

Yep, and I see their posts listed in the forum as well.

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Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, GM_GooglyMoogly said:

If you used that on the handful of people that irk you, then you won't see their posts . . . until someone else quotes them.

 

Dang... sorry. You think I'm talking about them irking me? I'm not. They don't. They're irrelevant to me personally. This type is fairly easy to dispute, argue against or dismiss.

 

They are preventing lively, productive discussion because of their effect on the forum... on the other posters who might not have the ability or tools to do that.

Edited by Forager

The D Squad  Arc ID: 68066 Content for Ex-criminals following Blue Spectrum and Officer Daniels after Galaxy City

These Ain't Your Daddy's Skulls!  Arc ID: 68427 (A Playtest Arc for a Complete redesign of The Skulls)

Posted
9 minutes ago, Ukase said:

Now, in some cases, yeah, I think it's a valid thing to mention, because the ideas some of us have - we have no idea what it would take to implement them. 

 

Lol... I'm saying that's precisely the reason NOT to mention it. The people mentioning it don't know either.

The D Squad  Arc ID: 68066 Content for Ex-criminals following Blue Spectrum and Officer Daniels after Galaxy City

These Ain't Your Daddy's Skulls!  Arc ID: 68427 (A Playtest Arc for a Complete redesign of The Skulls)

Posted (edited)

Oh I gave up on suggestions in this community via the forums. You got a guy(or group, idk) with no job, friends or family policing a 20 yr old game's online forum pretending they have any experience in game design despite not playing anything but this one(which I 100% doubt they actually play with how often they're on the forums), GMs who will let these bad actors keep disrupting threads, and a litany of other issues that kinda make me go

 

"Fuck this" to the whole idea of even trying to help this game or community, at least in this capacity.

 

I stick to the discord, most of these problem causers don't know how discord works so are simply incapable of joining in, plus thats where the devs interact mostly with the community anyway so it kinda side steps this fuster cluck.

Edited by Seed22
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Posted

Maybe it would help if you guys knew why the "dev time" defense is so stupid.

 

Even if you were right, which is extremely unlikely, the response is still "So?"

 

Guy suggests destructible environments. That's probably not gonna happen. We all know that. You say "tHaTS toO hArD TO CoDE!!1" The response is still, "So?"

 

Whether you're right or you're wrong, and you are probably wrong, the response is still "So?" The best possible outcome is zero contribution and there's a significant chance, approaching certainty, of a negative effect on the conversation.

 

It's objectively a stupid thing to say.

 

It'd be like someone telling you about a goal or a dream and you telling them, "That's too expensive." I understand that people don't realize the chilling effect this type of thing has, because people do exactly that. That's why I'm suggesting guidance and coaching.

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The D Squad  Arc ID: 68066 Content for Ex-criminals following Blue Spectrum and Officer Daniels after Galaxy City

These Ain't Your Daddy's Skulls!  Arc ID: 68427 (A Playtest Arc for a Complete redesign of The Skulls)

Posted
9 minutes ago, Seed22 said:

"Fuck this" to the whole idea of even trying to help this game or community, at least in this capacity.

 

I believe it can be done.

The D Squad  Arc ID: 68066 Content for Ex-criminals following Blue Spectrum and Officer Daniels after Galaxy City

These Ain't Your Daddy's Skulls!  Arc ID: 68427 (A Playtest Arc for a Complete redesign of The Skulls)

Posted
50 minutes ago, Psyonico said:

I usually explain why DB changes are unlikely to happen, not because I am a dev, but because I have ~10 years experience

 

Lol weren't you the guy that said there's no way to display proc chances in game?

The D Squad  Arc ID: 68066 Content for Ex-criminals following Blue Spectrum and Officer Daniels after Galaxy City

These Ain't Your Daddy's Skulls!  Arc ID: 68427 (A Playtest Arc for a Complete redesign of The Skulls)

Posted
2 hours ago, battlewraith said:

 

Why even have it then? Don't let players come on to the forums and get burned when they ask for something when it's unlikely that anything discussed there will happen.


You have it because they want the feedback. Them wanting and having the player feedback has absolutely nothing to do with them having the resources (they don’t) to implement even 1 percent of 1 percent of what’s in the suggestions forums.

 

Also some suggestions they read may give them an idea how to do something else, how to morph that idea into something THEY (the devs) may actually want to do.

 

There is never anything wrong with getting feedback or leaving the door open to get that feedback. That in no way shape or form is an unspoken contract that that feedback will be acted on.

Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, GM_GooglyMoogly said:

If someone is being toxic, report them.  We do hand out warnings and timeouts when people step out of line.  

 

But mere disagreement is not toxicity.  You can accept or ignore the criticism.  You can mount a defense to the criticism. . . or not.

 

I understand that there are a handful of people that have problems with most suggestions. 

 

If you think their critique is invalid, ignore it.  But maybe your idea is not as great as you think it is if you cannot overcome the criticism.


The bolded. So very much the bolded.

 

As someone working in IT for the past 20 years, I can tell you that in that field you better be prepared to defend and explain why you idea is a good one.

 

Maybe I’ve just gotten used to that type of feedback loop.

Edited by golstat2003
Posted
41 minutes ago, Forager said:

 

Dang... sorry. You think I'm talking about them irking me? I'm not. They don't. They're irrelevant to me personally. This type is fairly easy to dispute, argue against or dismiss.

 

They are preventing lively, productive discussion because of their effect on the forum... on the other posters who might not have the ability or tools to do that.


As to the bolded, the intelligent discussion going on now for 3 pages makes me strongly disagree with this opinion. And it sure as hell is an opinion not a fact.

 

The multiple suggestions threads still being opened daily by new and old posters are like is also evidence that this is just your opinion, not a fact.

Posted
8 minutes ago, golstat2003 said:

As someone working in IT for the past 20 years, I can tell you that in that field you better be prepared to defend and explain why you idea is a good one.

 

I'm sure... but we're not employees in that field and we're not defending our ideas against people with knowledge or experience.

 

The D Squad  Arc ID: 68066 Content for Ex-criminals following Blue Spectrum and Officer Daniels after Galaxy City

These Ain't Your Daddy's Skulls!  Arc ID: 68427 (A Playtest Arc for a Complete redesign of The Skulls)

Posted (edited)
2 minutes ago, Forager said:

 

I'm sure... but we're not employees in that field and we're not defending our ideas against people with knowledge or experience.

 


No but if you can defend your suggestion, It may help a dev in the future who reads it to consider that it is an actual good idea, or think of a way to implement it while taking out the negative parts that folks who initially disagreed don’t like.

 

Discussion both negative and positive has made things the devs implement better and better in Closed Beta for instance.

Edited by golstat2003

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