Tankers Obsolete?

[Kruunch]

With enhancement sets, the Incarnate system on easy-mode and an easy market on private servers have Tankers become totally obsolete?

 

I have an L50 Tanker, Brute and Scrapper. They've all tanked 1-50 + incarnate. It takes me 30 minutes to make enough money to completely twink them out in enhancement sets (including superior ATOs, globals and purple sets). It takes me less than a day to go from dinging L50 to being 4/3/3/3/3/4 Incarnate.

 

The state of the game is what it is, and I'm fine with it (that's not the complaint here). However with the current state of the game, why would you ever play a Tanker over a Brute, Scrapper or Stalker?

 

In other words, everything else being equal, why would you play an AT that kills slower, and affords almost no practical upside over the mentioned ATs?

 

(randomly depressing thought that struck me this morning)

[ShardWarrior]

Can only speak for myself here - the practical upside for me is that I find them fun and enjoy playing them.  Personally, I'm not out to squeeze every last drop of DPS or whatever out of every character I make.  That isn't necessarily fun for me.  What's important for me is that I have fun playing them. That's all that matters.

 

 

[Kruunch]

Can only speak for myself here - the practical upside for me is that I find them fun and enjoy playing them.  Personally, I'm not out to squeeze every last drop of DPS or whatever out of every character I make.  That isn't necessarily fun for me.  What's important for me is that I have fun playing them. That's all that matters.

 

Ok sure I get that. But there aren't many combinations of sets you can take as a Tanker that you can't take as a Brute/Scrapper/Stalker.

 

So besides the name "Tanker" ... what's the appeal?

[ShardWarrior]

Last I checked, both scrappers and tanks have the same count of Offensive and Defensive sets - scrappers/brutes might have 1 or 2 more.    Still plenty of options IMO.

[Heraclea]

No Scrapper with the same powers selected will ever be as tough as an equivalent Tanker.  IO sets don't change that.  The Tanker will still benefit more from them.  Incarnates do not change that, although they add considerably to a Tanker's damage.  If anything, they favor tankers: adding more damage is a big QoL difference to the tanker, but changes relatively little for the Scrapper. 

 

Brutes may approach Tanker levels of survivability with somewhat more IO investment.  They are IME not as much fun to level, even now that you can make them blueside.  The Fury mechanic is constantly hampered by your endurance and by your smaller out of the box survivability.  The tanker has time the brute doesn't. 

 

Tankers are just more fun for me.  Any Tanker is tough enough out of the box.  You don't really need a single IO bonus.  This also means that Tanker builds are more forgiving, and you can focus your attention on making the character you want rather than making min-max the chief priority of your build. 

 

 

[Obitus]

With enhancement sets, the Incarnate system on easy-mode and an easy market on private servers have Tankers become totally obsolete?

 

I have an L50 Tanker, Brute and Scrapper. They've all tanked 1-50 + incarnate. It takes me 30 minutes to make enough money to completely twink them out in enhancement sets (including superior ATOs, globals and purple sets). It takes me less than a day to go from dinging L50 to being 4/3/3/3/3/4 Incarnate.

 

The state of the game is what it is, and I'm fine with it (that's not the complaint here). However with the current state of the game, why would you ever play a Tanker over a Brute, Scrapper or Stalker?

 

In other words, everything else being equal, why would you play an AT that kills slower, and affords almost no practical upside over the mentioned ATs?

 

(randomly depressing thought that struck me this morning)

 

It's a bit surprising to see such a familiar tanking name making this complaint.  I don't think it's a new complaint, incidentally; Incarnates and IOs have certainly made the case stronger, but it was always true that Scrappers and especially Brutes were usually close enough to Tankers to get the job done, at higher levels.  Hell, in high end teams there are so many buffs flying around that you can often make do with a Corruptor tanking.

 

That said, there are very difficult enemy factions in this game, factions that I believe a lot of people skip, factions that can trivialize most players' defenses in one way or another.  Tankers do have an advantage there, in that they start at a higher level, and (at least in comparison with Scrappers/Stalkers) have much higher defensive caps.  It's not much, but it's something. 

 

Tanker damage also isn't quite as awful as it's often made out to be, and while we're on the subject of Incarnates/IOs marginalizing AT roles, it's worth noting that the extra damage a Scrapper/Brute brings to the table is likely to be lost in the overpowered chaos of any high end team too.  In a world of tricked out IO/Incarnate builds, everyone's arguably superfluous.  As always in CoH, the best teams are comprised of buff/debuff; only difference now is that Destiny turns everyone into a mini-buffer, and Judgment/Lore turn even the most anemically offensive team into a juggernaut of destruction.

 

As to the server's condition, I think maybe you're exaggerating just a bit - or maybe you're just way way more hardcore than I am.  It costs somewhere around 700-800 million INF, at current prices, to fully trick out a build, and you say you earn that in half an hour?  I can do about 100 million per day with casual market games, which take maybe 20 minutes of play time; used to do about double that before I lost interest in logging in multiple times a day - so don't get me wrong, I wouldn't be surprised if what you claim is possible.  I do question how relevant your obviously tippy-top-elite marketeering is to a broader discussion about game/AT balance, though.  You're clearly an extreme outlier.

 

Same goes for the Incarnate stuff.  Less than a day?  How many hours of playtime?

[Kruunch]

First off hey there Heraclea! Long time :)

 

No Scrapper with the same powers selected will ever be as tough as an equivalent Tanker.  IO sets don't change that.  The Tanker will still benefit more from them.  Incarnates do not change that, although they add considerably to a Tanker's damage.  If anything, they favor tankers: adding more damage is a big QoL difference to the tanker, but changes relatively little for the Scrapper. 

 

From a sheer numbers standpoint, sure. But in practically speaking, I'd argue not so much. Resists have caps and you can still achieve overage on those caps with all ATs I've mentioned. Defensive sets can easily reach ~60% (more than enough for soft cap and overage for debuffs/level difference).

 

As for QoL, I'd agree but only from the standpoint that I can make a Scrapper/Stalker/Brute that can tank by their 30s, versus having to wait until Incarnate to see an equivalent amount of damage for a Tanker (thus the relief for the Tanker possibly being greater from the player's mindset). But I'd think that favors my OP rather than as a debate against it.

 

Brutes may approach Tanker levels of survivability with somewhat more IO investment.  They are IME not as much fun to level, even now that you can make them blueside.  The Fury mechanic is constantly hampered by your endurance and by your smaller out of the box survivability.  The tanker has time the brute doesn't. 

 

All of the ATs I've mentioned can attain enough survivability to tank. Endurance is a build issue, independent of what AT you play. I don't see a ton of Dark/Mace Tankers jazzersizing out there :P

 

Tankers are just more fun for me.  Any Tanker is tough enough out of the box.  You don't really need a single IO bonus.  This also means that Tanker builds are more forgiving, and you can focus your attention on making the character you want rather than making min-max the chief priority of your build.

 

Ah that's the crux of it isn't it. Seen through the glasses of the past, I totally get this sentiment. I wonder how many people who haven't come up via Tankers (old school) will feel the same way however?

 

I'm not trying to Tanker bash here ... was an honest question and I wondered how others felt about it.

[jack_nomind]

With enhancement sets, the Incarnate system on easy-mode and an easy market on private servers have Tankers become totally obsolete?

 

More or less, but

 

The state of the game is what it is, and I'm fine with it (that's not the complaint here). However with the current state of the game, why would you ever play a Tanker over a Brute, Scrapper or Stalker?

 

In other words, everything else being equal, why would you play an AT that kills slower, and affords almost no practical upside over the mentioned ATs?

 

Because it's easier.  I can do a 100x ehp Tanker build that holds aggro half asleep, which is a way that I play sometimes.  It's not a great place for the AT to be, but it's... you know.  A thing.  Tankers have a super low ceiling, but a pretty high floor.

[Hyperstrike]

Basically I just find Tankers a more steady platform.

 

Scrappers dance the razor's edge.  Occasionally doing the splits and...well...

 

Brutes are tougher and can do a lot more damage.  Sure.  And can be brought to about 95% of the toughness of an almost identical Tank.

They can still have "razor's edge" problem.

 

I've gone through content with a Tank, and have noted tougher areas where they're actually able to appreciably damage him/her.

I've gone through the same content at the same difficulty and have noted these areas, if you're not twitchy, will basically reduce you to nomming the carpet.

 

I can sum it up thus.

Tank: I'm okay, ow, ow, ow, ow, okay I'm not okay, ow, DEAD

Brute: I'm okay, ow, ow ow, okay I'm not.., DEAD.

[Kruunch]

It's a bit surprising to see such a familiar tanking name making this complaint.  I don't think it's a new complaint, incidentally; Incarnates and IOs have certainly made the case stronger, but it was always true that Scrappers and especially Brutes were usually close enough to Tankers to get the job done, at higher levels.  Hell, in high end teams there are so many buffs flying around that you can often make do with a Corruptor tanking.

 

Gotta admit, you have me intrigued in trying to make a Corruptor Tanker now ;)

 

Great to see all the old names popping up ... good to see your posts again Obitus :)

 

So yeah, back at release people realized that there was a certain amount of imbalance in the power sets and this allowed for some ridiculous mangling of the AT roles (thinking Regen Scrappers here). Then the re-balancing of ATs took place, and the roles resumed back into their proper places (a few outliers (players) aside).

 

Then you had CoV and a further mangling of roles, although more from a conceptual sense then a cross-faction way, as we saw MMs taking the lead tank role a lot of the times (at CoV release).

 

Then you had IOs and IO enhancements which further blurred the lines.

 

Then cross-faction playability with Rogue.

 

Finally you had the Incarnate system which just made everybody a bloody god.

 

The determining factor for all of these however was time. As Heraclea alluded to earlier, the time it took to get a Scrapper/Stalker/Brute to comfortably tank what a Tanker could (and all the earlier levels as you built up in any AT) was what made playing a Tanker worthwhile. Sure at the very end game, it might all even out but you still had a whole career's worth of tanking to get to that point that the other ATs wouldn't get (including learning all the subtleties of tanking in CoX that comes with it).

 

I maintain that that's not necessarily the case today (and more so tomorrow and so on).

 

That said, there are very difficult enemy factions in this game, factions that I believe a lot of people skip, factions that can trivialize most players' defenses in one way or another.  Tankers do have an advantage there, in that they start at a higher level, and (at least in comparison with Scrappers/Stalkers) have much higher defensive caps.  It's not much, but it's something. 

 

Mmmmm I think people who tend to skip content in lieu of easier content will tend to include Tankers as well. Tankers with Psi-holes will still avoid Psi based enemies if given the option if they are of that mindset to begin with (or can be masochists like me and demand to main tank Hami on their Inv/SS Tanker  :o ).

 

Tanker damage also isn't quite as awful as it's often made out to be, and while we're on the subject of Incarnates/IOs marginalizing AT roles, it's worth noting that the extra damage a Scrapper/Brute brings to the table is likely to be lost in the overpowered chaos of any high end team too.  In a world of tricked out IO/Incarnate builds, everyone's arguably superfluous.  As always in CoH, the best teams are comprised of buff/debuff; only difference now is that Destiny turns everyone into a mini-buffer, and Judgment/Lore turn even the most anemically offensive team into a juggernaut of destruction.

 

If the comparison was Brute vs Tanker solely I'd tend to agree (depending the build of course).  However Scrappers/Stalkers bring a whole other level of damage, only being out-shined by Blasters in this regard (again depending the build). But on average, the difference in Scrapper/Stalker damage to Brute/Tanker damage is fairly extreme.

 

Now I am part of the gimpiest group you could think of in terms of buffing (3 Blasters and a Scrapper (me)) and we cruise through all content (thus far ... might find an outlier TF that gives us a tough time at some point). This more than anything is why I posted this.

 

As to the server's condition, I think maybe you're exaggerating just a bit - or maybe you're just way way more hardcore than I am.  It costs somewhere around 700-800 million INF, at current prices, to fully trick out a build, and you say you earn that in half an hour?  I can do about 100 million per day with casual market games, which take maybe 20 minutes of play time; used to do about double that before I lost interest in logging in multiple times a day - so don't get me wrong, I wouldn't be surprised if what you claim is possible.  I do question how relevant your obviously tippy-top-elite marketeering is to a broader discussion about game/AT balance, though.  You're clearly an extreme outlier.

 

Same goes for the Incarnate stuff.  Less than a day?  How many hours of playtime?

 

I saw a guide ( https://forums.homecomingservers.com/index.php/topic,3161.0.html ) on the Guides forums, played around with it for a few hours (making 100mil in the process) and got it to the point where I make about 200m per 30 mins. 200m is about all I need to fully twink a toon to the areas I'm talking about (keeping in mind that this process also produces all of the globals I'll need).

 

This isn't some hard core game-mode 24/7 botting the system ... this is 30 minutes of figuring out what sells and what doesn't and a little literacy. 15 year old game now on private servers ... yeah there are going to be soft spots in the economy ;)

 

As to the Incarnate stuff, I run regularly with 3 friends (all CoX alums from SNAFU, Inc). When we hit 50 with a set of toons, we do the Incarnate arcs together until the finale, and then do the finales one at a time (getting the end rewards for each). The first few we did on +8/+4 and that took us an afternoon to get through the Dark Astoria, Belladonna and Diabolique arcs (that's 12 rolls for 3 arcs total).

 

This last time we did the same arcs on 1/-1 to speed run through it and finished all 3 in an hour.

 

Even soloing the arcs and not getting the extra rolls, you should be able to get to this point by the end of a week assuming a very carefree and casual pace of 2 hours a night 3-4 nights out of the week.

 

Again, 15 year old game on a private server so yeah. The downsize is that some of the gameplay has been marginalized and unfortunately I think maybe some of the ATs.

[Infinitum]

[quote author=Obitus

As to the server's condition, I think maybe you're exaggerating just a bit - or maybe you're just way way more hardcore than I am.  It costs somewhere around 700-800 million INF, at current prices, to fully trick out a build, and you say you earn that in half an hour?  I can do about 100 million per day with casual market games, which take maybe 20 minutes of play time; used to do about double that before I lost interest in logging in multiple times a day - so don't get me wrong, I wouldn't be surprised if what you claim is possible.  I do question how relevant your obviously tippy-top-elite marketeering is to a broader discussion about game/AT balance, though.  You're clearly an extreme outlier.

 

Same goes for the Incarnate stuff.  Less than a day?  How many hours of playtime?

800 million to trick out a build? Holy crap what are you putting in there? my Brute took 300 mil and he's close to unkillable and res capped at everything but toxic 54% at toxic too.

 

You are correct though tanks are more fun to level, and not every brute set can rival tank primary sets no matter how you trick them out. Some can with huge investment in time and early on grind and embarrassing defeats, but it passes if you are willing to stick with it and in the end a few sets can be as sturdy as tanks with a lot more damage.

 

But ultimately there is no substitute for tank survivability across the board and the fun they have leveling.

[Sura]

For me it's all about mindset.  I like playing Tankers because my mindset is what I would consider "Tanker" appropriate: I want to be out there protecting my team and holding aggro.  It's not about defeating crowds of foes, it's about being so buried in live foes attacking me that I'm not visible, and dealing with that crowd's damage so my team doesn't have to.  That's what makes me feel powerful.  There's not another AT that has that same mindset.  Some are similar in being "unselfish", like defenders, controllers, and dominators, but most I think are simply damage oriented. 

 

In a way I think Tankers are actually the opposite of obsolete due to this: there are many AT's that bring damage to a team, some that bring buffs/debuffs, some that bring controls.  But there's only one whose purpose and mindset is to effectively and efficiently draw aggro to help keep the team moving forward, and that's the Tanker.

[Kruunch]

For me it's all about mindset.  I like playing Tankers because my mindset is what I would consider "Tanker" appropriate: I want to be out there protecting my team and holding aggro.  It's not about defeating crowds of foes, it's about being so buried in live foes attacking me that I'm not visible, and dealing with that crowd's damage so my team doesn't have to.  That's what makes me feel powerful.  There's not another AT that has that same mindset.  Some are similar in being "unselfish", like defenders, controllers, and dominators, but most I think are simply damage oriented. 

 

In a way I think Tankers are actually the opposite of obsolete due to this: there are many AT's that bring damage to a team, some that bring buffs/debuffs, some that bring controls.  But there's only one whose purpose and mindset is to effectively and efficiently draw aggro to help keep the team moving forward, and that's the Tanker.

 

Even if my Scrapper with Provoke does the exact same thing?

[JusticeBowler]

I do think that Tankers need a damage buff for solo play, just like Defenders get! The actual gameplay of 1-50 (or going backwards through Ouroborus) can be quite punishing if you want your Tank to be your completist/main toon.

 

I've gotten stuck on a few teams running PI radios or ITFs with Incarnates doing all sorts of silly-broken things. Far more than what 500-700 million will buy you in sets (though they may have had that too). I saw a Blaster tank the end battle of ITF without even pulling, just ran in and piled on ridiculous powers of who-the-hell-knows-what. Didn't care that the three healing Nicti were still firing away, just blew them the hell up. Not my idea of fun.

 

I miss the days of stopping to rehearse of bit of strategy in CoH. It does come up from time to time, but it is very rare even on raids. Folks just spam everything and expect their OP build to carry the day and it almost always does.

 

My main tank Bob The Janitor has about 200 million invested in almost entirely mid-cost sets and I can do some really fun stupid tank tricks with him (especially since Dark has two PBAoE status effects to work with). I've been on teams where people said, "I learned something about tanking watching you." And WOW that was amazing to hear! But your durability is way overkill if you are running anything less than a 5 person team at accelerated difficulty (though I usually use those cases as a test for how well I can cross-pull mob groups into each other and that sort of thing to keep myself challenged and interested).

 

Sure, I've gotten bored running behind a Brute Incarnate and politely exited the team after the mission was over to look for a team that actually needed a tank. Those teams are out there if you go looking for them, especially on challenging mob groups. So that's what I do "for a living."

 

I get jealous from time to time when people talk about pulling down 100 million in an hour and so once a week can completely purple a toon, or playing a Corruptor-tank or whatever. But the thing is I'm actually here to play the game and the experience of that is really the point. If I have to put artificial constraints on myself to do that sometimes, I'm happy to. But I have too many ALTs to worry about whether or not my tank (which is awesome) is better than anyone else's toon, even if that toon isn't a tank at all.

[Obitus]

 

Gotta admit, you have me intrigued in trying to make a Corruptor Tanker now ;)

 

Great to see all the old names popping up ... good to see your posts again Obitus :)

 

Good seeing you too, Kruunch.  Pretty surreal to see all the familiar names, ain't it?  It's like we never left. :D

 

Finally you had the Incarnate system which just made everybody a bloody god.

 

Yeah, I think Judgment, Lore, and Destiny really trivialize team play in a way that even the most tricked out IO builds can't quite match.  IO builds are more powerful than Incarnates in a solo context, but set bonuses don't scale (much) as you increase team members.  I definitely agree that the obliteration of team roles at the high end is a problem - or if not a problem, then at least disturbing to a lot of players.

 

Then again, a team of 8 Defenders could always eradicate team roles, even before IOs or Incarnates.  It's just that now just about everyone post-50 can more or less match the 8 Defenders.

 

The determining factor for all of these however was time. As Heraclea alluded to earlier, the time it took to get a Scrapper/Stalker/Brute to comfortably tank what a Tanker could (and all the earlier levels as you built up in any AT) was what made playing a Tanker worthwhile. Sure at the very end game, it might all even out but you still had a whole career's worth of tanking to get to that point that the other ATs wouldn't get (including learning all the subtleties of tanking in CoX that comes with it).

 

This is very true.  And as someone who tends to smell the roses a bit during the leveling process, I think Heraclea's right on about how she feels about Tankers.  Part of the issue here is that we're all long-time vets who are starting over from scratch - so we're stuck in a weird psychological space where everything's simultaneously old-hat and new, where you can shock yourself with the speed with which your new builds get on their feet, while at the same time feeling a sense of urgency about regaining what you had on the live servers.

 

Someone like you already knows all the subtleties of tanking (regardless of the AT); you know how to make resources quickly; you know how to make builds sing.  It's possible you're just beyond the tanking AT, given your knowledge, skill, and your play style.

 

I saw a guide ( https://forums.homecomingservers.com/index.php/topic,3161.0.html ) on the Guides forums, played around with it for a few hours (making 100mil in the process) and got it to the point where I make about 200m per 30 mins. 200m is about all I need to fully twink a toon to the areas I'm talking about (keeping in mind that this process also produces all of the globals I'll need).

 

Ah ok, that makes sense.  It's an excellent guide, and the best part is that converting enhancements drives the supply up for rare/desired pieces.  You're helping the economy :D

 

200 million is a good number; you can achieve high-end performance with that number.  It just isn't quite fully tricked out with purples/ATOs, each set of which will run you 70-100 million or so.  As in many MMOs, the IO system puts a high price premium on the last 10-20% of performance.

 

As to the Incarnate stuff, I run regularly with 3 friends (all CoX alums from SNAFU, Inc). When we hit 50 with a set of toons, we do the Incarnate arcs together until the finale, and then do the finales one at a time (getting the end rewards for each). The first few we did on +8/+4 and that took us an afternoon to get through the Dark Astoria, Belladonna and Diabolique arcs (that's 12 rolls for 3 arcs total).

 

This is a great idea!  Will have to try it some time.

[Obitus]

800 million to trick out a build? Holy crap what are you putting in there? my Brute took 300 mil and he's close to unkillable and res capped at everything but toxic 54% at toxic too.

 

Heh, it's just an estimate based on some of the builds I've mocked up since I came back.  The other day I put together this Corruptor build, for example.  Total cost was somewhere around 700 million, though it's hard to pin down the exact number because I bought some of it while I was leveling.

 

There are a couple of Dom builds I'm looking at that will/would cost more, and some melee builds that'd cost a little less.  It boils down to how many purple sets you can/want to cram in there.  5 purple pieces cost about 100 million.  ATOs are pretty pricey too; roughly 10 million a pop (IME) and then another 3-4 million to catalyze them.  The good news is that the price for purples here is a lot lower than it was on live, IIRC.  The bad news is that there don't appear to be any "cheap" purple sets; in other words, Confuse or Sleep purples seem to cost about the same as Ragnarok or Apocalypse.

 

Then again, this pricing consistency does make it easier to estimate your costs.

 

I do think that Tankers need a damage buff for solo play, just like Defenders get! The actual gameplay of 1-50 (or going backwards through Ouroborus) can be quite punishing if you want your Tank to be your completist/main toon.

 

This is a solid idea, though it'd be hard to balance.  At the moment, Vigilance gives solo Defenders exactly the same amount of offense as a Corruptor with standard damage slotting (2.25 * 0.65 = 1.95 * 0.75), and disregarding Scourge. The offensive comparison between Tankers -> Brutes -> Scrappers isn't quite so clear-cut, unfortunately, as Brutes aren't obviously an in-betweener in quite the same way that Corruptors straddle the line between Blasters and Defenders, and of course Brute defenses are significantly weaker than Tanker defenses, sans buffs/IOs - which is a more glaring difference, in practice, than the difference between Corruptor/Controller buff/debuff and Defender versions of the same.

 

You could boost Bruising without too much worry, though, or even attach it to Tanker AoE attacks to give them a little more relevance in steam-rolling team situations.  Could also go in the other direction, make Tankers inherently more resistant to debuffs, for example, or give them inherent boosts to recharge/endurance, maybe give them higher range on their auras.  Lot of appealing possibilities, though of course it must always be emphasized that our developer team works for free.

 

I get jealous from time to time when people talk about pulling down 100 million in an hour and so once a week can completely purple a toon, or playing a Corruptor-tank or whatever. But the thing is I'm actually here to play the game and the experience of that is really the point. If I have to put artificial constraints on myself to do that sometimes, I'm happy to. But I have too many ALTs to worry about whether or not my tank (which is awesome) is better than anyone else's toon, even if that toon isn't a tank at all.

 

Heh, when I said that Corruptors can tank I wasn't referring to a build strategy, just referencing the sort of high-end team scenario you describe earlier in your post, where everything dies too fast (or is sufficiently controlled/debuffed) for tanking to matter.

 

Still, */Time Corruptors (or Time/* Defenders) can be pretty damn tanky.  Been seeing a lot of those lately, for obvious reasons (new powerset, good for farming, etc).

[jack_nomind]

I do think that Tankers need a damage buff for solo play, just like Defenders get! 

 

I hate to say it but... play a Brute.  Putting Tankers and Brutes (or Defenders and Corruptors, for that matter) on an apples to apples scale devalues both (pairs of) ATs.

[Sura]

For me it's all about mindset.  I like playing Tankers because my mindset is what I would consider "Tanker" appropriate: I want to be out there protecting my team and holding aggro.  It's not about defeating crowds of foes, it's about being so buried in live foes attacking me that I'm not visible, and dealing with that crowd's damage so my team doesn't have to.  That's what makes me feel powerful.  There's not another AT that has that same mindset.  Some are similar in being "unselfish", like defenders, controllers, and dominators, but most I think are simply damage oriented. 

 

In a way I think Tankers are actually the opposite of obsolete due to this: there are many AT's that bring damage to a team, some that bring buffs/debuffs, some that bring controls.  But there's only one whose purpose and mindset is to effectively and efficiently draw aggro to help keep the team moving forward, and that's the Tanker.

 

Even if my Scrapper with Provoke does the exact same thing?

 

If that Scrapper's mindset is to hold aggro to keep their team safe, and damage is not a priority, then yes (though they're going to have a MUCH harder time doing so compared to a tank).  But I think most players that want to do something like that are playing Tankers, and Scrappers' mindset tends to be about defeating stuff (damage).  Does that make sense? 

 

I should add that I think Tankers should be looked at, but I do think they have a place.  If it were me I'd start by taking crashes out of T9 Tanker powers and replacing Hibernate with something that's not inimical to a Tanker's role. 

 

[JusticeBowler]

I do think that Tankers need a damage buff for solo play, just like Defenders get! 

 

I hate to say it but... play a Brute.  Putting Tankers and Brutes (or Defenders and Corruptors, for that matter) on an apples to apples scale devalues both (pairs of) ATs.

 

I'm talking about SOLO when you are playing BY YOURSELF. That doesn't affect anyone except make it not take forever to slog through every kill all like Statesman is still around punishing me for not playing his game his way.

 

Defenders got the buff for the exact same reason. This is an apples to apples comparison that doesn't hurt Brutes a bit.

 

Incidentally, I can play scrappers and stalkers, but Brute's fury is a nightmare for my OCD.

[JavaMonk]

No, Tankers are not obsolete.  Because I said so.... 8)

[Kruunch]

No, Tankers are not obsolete.  Because I said so.... 8)

 

JavaMonk is the winner! :D

[Tankshock]

I've been kind of torn about this for a while.  I think the traditional role of tanks was pretty much obsolete by sundown. I think pretty much all the roles are obsolete in high end content now.  Eight of any AT can steamroll just fine currently.

 

But certain builds are dead, for almost all AT's. Everything now is about maximizing damage, whether that be recharge buffs, resistance debuffs, or old fashioned damage debuffs.  So a traditional stone or invuln has been marginalized. But damage focused tanks are virtually as good as brutes or scrappers. Not quite as much damage, but can certainly improve a lot of pugs more than a scrapper. And let's face it, an optimized scrapper doesn't have Provoke.

 

So the heyday of building a tank to anchor an STF team is gone.  But my electric/shield tanker with Mu Mastery can carry his weight in high end content. If I could only have one character in COH, would I chose brute over tank? Sure. But thank goodness that isn't the case, and the brute is not better in every situation.

[LaconicLemur]

Long time tank lurker; having played mostly squishies years ago. Here's my take on technical differences between Brutes and Tanks. I thought I'd post it since not everyone might know and it's a relevant thread.  Please do correct where it's wrong.

 

Base HP / Max HP: Tank (1874/3534) | Brute (1499/3212)

Taunt: Tank: Gauntlet Inherent - AOE Taunt when using ST attacks

            Brute: Single-target taunt when using ST attacks

Damage Limits @ Level 50:  Tank (400%) | Brute (775%)

 

Modifier differences Melee at Level 50 . Tank vs. Brute. For example, Tank Damage Scale is 0.8, Brute Damage Scale is 0.75; difference = 0.05

Damage Scale 0.05

Defense Buff         0.025

Max HP Buff         0.025

Defense Debuff 0.625

Damage Debuff 0.625

ToHit Debuff         0.625

Heal Self *              37.481

Damage Resist 0.025

* I'm guessing paragonwiki numbers really meant 1.x, so the difference should be .38

 

Modifier differences at Ranged Level 50

Defense Buff 0.585

Damage Buff 0.63

Max HP Buff 0.63

ToHit Buff 0.63

Defense Debuff 0.63

Damage Debuff 0.63

ToHit Debuff 0.63

 

Source: paragonwiki.com AT pages for tank and brute

Note: The modifier differences are somewhat confusing to me. I assume it means that tanks gain marginally more from group buffs affecting melee attacks, and get more affected by debuffs linked to attacks on them at melee range.  And similar thinking for ranged, except a larger difference in effects.

---

 

I had this conversation in a pug about tanks and brutes before I looked at the numbers. The numbers show brutes can do more damage. I intuit with IO's brutes can also have the same sturdiness as tanks. BUT. Most brutes play like scrappers. As a squishy, I'm far more comfortable with a tank meat shield on a pug than a rando brute meat shield. And IO's (and level?) also seem to make a big difference in a brute's ability to function as a tank. So if a brute isn't of the tank mindset and at least somewhat IO'd, it seems they aren't as reliable as tanks.  I'm not sure if that changes at post-50 content.  I'd rather have a tank because I know what I'm getting, and steamrolling content at a 20% slower rate isn't something that will bother me. I also like the tidy mob clumps, and tanks seem to be better at that.

 

tl;dr: Brutes are mathematically better but playstyle and familiarity matters a lot.

 

 

 

 

[Heraclea]

Purely subjectively, I have never felt as useless on a tanker on a team as I did on a blaster trying to make it to 50 on a team full of judgment nukes.

[Kruunch]

Purely subjectively, I have never felt as useless on a tanker on a team as I did on a blaster trying to make it to 50 on a team full of judgment nukes.

 

Totally understand that feeling.