Knockback, Stil a Dirty Word?

[Erratic1]

10 hours ago, Skyhawke said:

Knockback can be annoying, yes, but Fold Space isn't exactly a winner in my book either.

 

I did say, "less problematic", not, "without problems".

[PeregrineFalcon]

40 minutes ago, Solarverse said:

However, I don't recall anyone trying to take away knock back.

Semantics. You're simply taking advantage of poor wording on my part.

 

By giving people a way to convert all KB to KD, however you do it, you then open them up to being pressured into turning that toggle on, or slotting that special IO, or whatever. So yeah, that's taking away knock back.

 

And then, once that problem's "solved", the anti-KB crowd will move on to the next "problem" to be solved.

 

Knock back is not a problem. Knock back is a part of the super hero genre. And, according to the Homecoming devs, it's not going anywhere. You all need to take the hint already.

[Riverdusk]

One possible mitigation, particularly to those that complain about the KB slot tax, improve the knockback IO sets.  The sudden acceleration set actually has good set bonuses, including the coveted +recharge for 6 slotting it.  Unfortunately fully slotting the set at level 50 only gives +63.6% damage enhancement.   Accuracy at 47.7% and endurance reduction at 21.2% are also kinda iffy.  Improve the enhancement values for the things people care about and it'd be a good alternative for the powers you want it in and then it wouldn't have any real "KB tax".

 

Basically make 6 slotting Sudden Acceleration viable and I know it'd make playing something like energy blast more tempting, for me anyway.  

 

As someone else brought up, I'd also say make energy torrent and explosive blast do 100% chance of knockback.  Ironically that'd make their knockback less annoying as it'd be more consistent.  The dark blast "torrent" powers, among others, have 100% chance of knockback, so it isn't like it is unheard of.

[Ghost]

3 hours ago, Solarverse said:

 

I see where you are seeing this. However, I don't recall anyone trying to take away knock back. I have seen requests to make it a choice, and I have seen requests made to make it synergize well with teams by giving knock back some type of buff or damage scale that makes it sting a lot less on teams that don't like knock back. But taking it away? I don't recall anyone requesting that, and if anyone did request it, I most likely avoided that thread due to the ridiculousness of the suggestion. I mean, I can't speak for everyone else, but what I can say, is rest assure, I am in no way trying to take knock back away from anyone. I just wouldn't stoop that low.  😎

Sorry.

Two simultaneous KB threads have me combining the two.

I was thinking of the person who suggested a toggle he could turn on that would disable everyone else’s KB ability.

[Solarverse]

2 hours ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

Semantics. You're simply taking advantage of poor wording on my part.

 

By giving people a way to convert all KB to KD, however you do it, you then open them up to being pressured into turning that toggle on, or slotting that special IO, or whatever. So yeah, that's taking away knock back.

 

And then, once that problem's "solved", the anti-KB crowd will move on to the next "problem" to be solved.

 

Knock back is not a problem. Knock back is a part of the super hero genre. And, according to the Homecoming devs, it's not going anywhere. You all need to take the hint already.

 

So because some people are A-holes, we just shouldn't do it? I guess we will have to agree to disagree. I don't operate like that. And just so you know, I would never take advantage of you deliberately. I simply took it at face value. We actually agree on many things, this just isn't one of them. However, regardless of our disagreement here, you are one of the extreme few who I still maintain respect for.

 

 

Edited yesterday at 01:54 AM by Solarverse
Reasons

[Solarverse]

21 minutes ago, Ghost said:

Sorry.

Two simultaneous KB threads have me combining the two.

I was thinking of the person who suggested a toggle he could turn on that would disable everyone else’s KB ability.

 

Hmmm, yeah, whoever wrote that must have been joking. That would never fly, lol.

[biostem]

The issue, IMHO, has never been knockback;  It's been the careless use of it.  Unlike other blast secondary effects, which don't really affect enemy positioning in such a detrimental way, irresponsibly using KB can lead to aggroing other groups, ruining buffs or debuffs that rely on enemy targets, or otherwise complicating fights.  If the KB user was solo, nobody would care, because they'd have to deal with the consequences of their own actions, but in a team environment, that can lead to team wipes or greatly extending the time it takes to complete an objective.  It's somewhat similar to when someone immobilizes an enemy or group too early, or if someone uses a phasing power on them at an inopportune time.  In short, when you're on a team, it's no longer about just what you want to do or how you want to use your powers;  Work with the team or leave.

 

Note:  If you are one of the players that DOES know how and when to use KB effectively, then I have nothing but admiration for you!

[BasiliskXVIII]

1 hour ago, Solarverse said:

 

Hmmm, yeah, whoever wrote that must have been joking. That would never fly, lol.

I don't know if it's necessarily completely insane. Most of the AoE immobs already have a high mag -kb effect. I could potentially see adding -kb to tank/brute damage auras (or a theoretical aura/clickie for some specific armour set current or future) or something to keep the group you've already made nice and packed up so they don't need to worry about a stray KB effect flinging half of your herd off to the side and out of your control. You want to knockback, you still have access to every other enemy on the map that isn't currently being handled by the tank. 

[biostem]

12 minutes ago, BasiliskXVIII said:

I don't know if it's necessarily completely insane. Most of the AoE immobs already have a high mag -kb effect. I could potentially see adding -kb to tank/brute damage auras (or a theoretical aura/clickie for some specific armour set current or future) or something to keep the group you've already made nice and packed up so they don't need to worry about a stray KB effect flinging half of your herd off to the side and out of your control. You want to knockback, you still have access to every other enemy on the map that isn't currently being handled by the tank. 

Would -kb adversely affect KU powers, though?

[BasiliskXVIII]

10 minutes ago, biostem said:

Would -kb adversely affect KU powers, though?

I'm not entirely sure, but based on the fact that Pyro control has -KB in Sparkling Chain which also applies their KU "Blast Off" effect, if it does then I think it would just minimize how high they get knocked and not invalidate the knockup entirely. But I'm not entirely clear on the interaction so I may be wrong.

 

My point was mostly just that we already have -kb tools in the game that affect an area, so I could see that same logic popping up elsewhere.

Edited yesterday at 03:54 AM by BasiliskXVIII

[Maelwys]

3 hours ago, biostem said:

Would -kb adversely affect KU powers, though?

 

Nope. KnockBACK and KnockUP are two different things. It's just that most effects in the game that grant resistance or protection for them grant it for both instead of just one.

 

https://cod.uberguy.net./html/power.html?power=controller_control.fire_control.fire_cages&at=controller

 

https://cod.uberguy.net./html/power.html?power=scrapper_defense.regeneration.integration&at=scrapper

 

https://cod.uberguy.net./html/power.html?power=pool.leaping.leap&at=defender

 

https://cod.uberguy.net./html/power.html?power=corruptor_buff.kinetics.increase_density&at=corruptor

 

That said, KnockUP can often be a little bit annoying for melee users too (e.g. Soaring Dragon tending to momentarily knock things out of range of my Scrapper's other Katana attacks, which slightly disrupts the flow of their attack chain and reduces their real-world DPS a bit compared to what it should be on paper) but it's much less problematic than knockback. And IMO by far the worst offender is "AoE knockback with a less-than-100% chance to kick in" because that inevitably always causes mob scatter unless the source is flying directly overhead or the targets have substantial Knockback resistance.

 

 

[Neiska]

9 hours ago, Ghost said:

I was thinking of the person who suggested a toggle he could turn on that would disable everyone else’s KB ability.

 

I would support this but only on 2 conditions -

1. That everyone also gets a toggle that would make everyone's power also suddenly knockback. Everyone. Every power. Yes, even Toy Bat and Beanbag.

2. Null the Gull could make everyone immune to both toggles.

 

And yes, I realize both of these would make the toggle off pointless. Which is of course, the entire point. And not because of knockback. But the very microsecond that you give a player a way to control another player's power, it will be abused. Constantly. Giving one player control over another has no upside. There is no "win" in that situation for anyone.

 

PS - Thought of a #3.

3. It has to be named the Karen Toggle.

Because some people just can't leave well enough alone and feel entitled to control other people where they have neither the authority nor business to do so.

[Neiska]

7 hours ago, biostem said:

Work with the team or leave.

 

Two questions.

 

1. Does this also apply to, oh, I duno, people who don't follow the brute or tank and just run off by themselves, aggro other groups, go splat, and then also get other team mates splatted? Is that "working with the team" too, or would we get tools to control them as well?

 

2. Who exactly gets to decide what's "with" the team. Lets play hypothetical - Lets say a team is one scrapper and 7 corruptors. One corruptor has knockback. And is keeping things nice and far from everyone else but the scrapper. What then? Is that "with" the team?

 

Here's my hot take - it's REALLY not that big of a deal. Lets do another hypothetical -

 

You are winding up, about to let fly with both barrels. You pop that red. You use your Aim. You get that Buildup proc. The stars align! Boy oh boy, this is gonna be ssooo ggoodd! Yes yes yes...!

.....oh no! NO!

 

Along comes this guy who just blows stuff out of your meticulously timed Nuke! THE SKY IS FALLING! ITS THE END OF DAYS! MAN OVERBOARD! WOMEN AND CHILDREN FIRST! SAVE YOURSELVES! THE DEVS HAVE FORESAKEN US! WHAT HAVE WE EVER DONE TO DESERV--- I think we get the drift. What's the actual situation? A mission might take at best, a couple minutes more. And people are up here making that out to be some kind of Greek Tragedy when it's really not.

 

Annoying? Sure. Irritating? Certainly. But by the sheer volume of noise some in the community are making about this is honestly embarrassing. And personally, I find those sorts of people more difficult to play with than 99% of knockback users. I can count on one hand, ONE, the number of knockback "abusers" I have encountered in 5 years. But the number of fun/how to play police? Let's not go down that road, at least in this topic.

 

TLDR - Get a grip. Having to wait a minute or two to use a nuke again, having a mission take a few minutes longer, or having your big satisfying spam if nice big numbers ruined really, and I mean really, not that big of a deal. 

[Maelwys]

6 minutes ago, Neiska said:

Having to wait a minute or two to use a nuke again, having a mission take a few minutes longer, or having your big satisfying spam if nice big numbers ruined really, and I mean really, not that big of a deal. 

 

It is, however, still annoying. 

 

If someone is playing a game and gets annoyed by something in that game, then their enjoyment is negatively impacted. Different people have different thresholds obviously... and I personally will typically put up with a lot of frustration before I get to boiling point (those old "Nintendo Hard" console games were good for something!!) but I can definitely sympathise with the melee user who sees red after getting their targets taken away from them the upteenth time.

 

 

 

[Neiska]

1 minute ago, Maelwys said:

 

It is, however, still annoying. 

 

If someone is playing a game and gets annoyed by something in that game, then their enjoyment is negatively impacted. Different people have different thresholds obviously... and I personally will typically put up with a lot of frustration before I get to boiling point (those old "Nintendo Hard" console games were good for something!!) but I can definitely sympathise with the melee user who sees red after getting their targets taken away from them the upteenth time.

 

 

 

 

Sure. It's annoying. 100% agree on that. But why does only "their" enjoyment count? Let's say someone uses KB as a form of mitigation during solo play and builds around that. Like an Energy Blast/FF or whatever. They don't get a say either? That's what concerns me more than the KB issue itself. 

 

IMO it ultimately comes down to the team leader, as it usually does with a great many things. Want to boss people around? Be the leader then you can dictate to others how you please. But with that you don't get to bombard the leader whining because someone is using their powers AS INTENDED. Unless the leader who put together the team expressly said "no knockback powers please" then everyone else agreed to "no restrictions" when they teamed up. And not once, not a single solitary time, have I ever seen a "no kb powers" stated when signing up for an activity. Any activity.

 

If you joined a team, without any stated restrictions, and someone is blasting away, well spoiler alert - they are as welcome there as you are. You don't like it? You are free to leave and make your own team with whatever rules or stipulations you like. If you make your own team, you get to decide who stays and who doesn't. But let's not pretend that people are in LFG going "ITF looking for 3 people. No knockback powers please." and people are using them anyway.

 

If people are really so passionate at knockback, they can advertise it as such. And until I see that happening, this whole whining about an issue that's old enough to vote or buy alcohol is an eye-roll to me.

[biostem]

1 hour ago, Neiska said:

Two questions.

It's simple:  Communicate.  No need to get into hypotheticals.  Presumably, we are all adults here, so use your words.

[Neiska]

4 minutes ago, biostem said:

It's simple:  Communicate.  No need to get into hypotheticals.  Presumably, we are all adults here, so use your words.

 

I agree. 😁

[Erratic1]

1 hour ago, Neiska said:

Along comes this guy who just blows stuff out of your meticulously timed Nuke! THE SKY IS FALLING! ITS THE END OF DAYS! MAN OVERBOARD! WOMEN AND CHILDREN FIRST! SAVE YOURSELVES! THE DEVS HAVE FORESAKEN US! WHAT HAVE WE EVER DONE TO DESERV--- I think we get the drift. What's the actual situation? A mission might take at best, a couple minutes more. And people are up here making that out to be some kind of Greek Tragedy when it's really not.

 

The problems have been detailed even if -=YOU=- refuse to acknowledge them, and include more than it taking more time to clear the mission/TF/trial.

 

Again (for those who apparently cannot be bothered to read) I really do not care for a group I have controlled to be scattered and then whatever now lives long enough to be freed come after me because it didn't get killed or taunted in time.

 

The solution for survival purposes is to stop using controls (and heals, because those also draw aggro), at which point the question is why am I on the team at all.

 

And yes, I did cut back on controls and heals last week when dealing with someone who kept running into groups and using Hand Clap.

 

I am truly going to have to make a KB focused character, slot KB enhancers, take Group Fly, Group Teleport, Phase Shift and follow your advice on teams by responding that people who dont enjoy my using such powers will nilly are cry-babies. Tell you what...I will name the character Neiska and tell people if the have problems to drop me a line on the forums, so you can see what people really think.

[tidge]

1 hour ago, Erratic1 said:

I am truly going to have to make a KB focused character, slot KB enhancers, take Group Fly, Group Teleport, Phase Shift and follow your advice on teams by responding that people who dont enjoy my using such powers will nilly are cry-babies. Tell you what...I will name the character Neiska and tell people if the have problems to drop me a line on the forums, so you can see what people really think.

 

You aren't even trying without the S.T.A.R.T. temp powers of Plasmatic Taser and Hand Grenade.

[Neiska]

3 hours ago, Erratic1 said:

 

The problems have been detailed even if -=YOU=- refuse to acknowledge them, and include more than it taking more time to clear the mission/TF/trial.

 

Again (for those who apparently cannot be bothered to read) I really do not care for a group I have controlled to be scattered and then whatever now lives long enough to be freed come after me because it didn't get killed or taunted in time.

 

The solution for survival purposes is to stop using controls (and heals, because those also draw aggro), at which point the question is why am I on the team at all.

 

And yes, I did cut back on controls and heals last week when dealing with someone who kept running into groups and using Hand Clap.

 

I am truly going to have to make a KB focused character, slot KB enhancers, take Group Fly, Group Teleport, Phase Shift and follow your advice on teams by responding that people who dont enjoy my using such powers will nilly are cry-babies. Tell you what...I will name the character Neiska and tell people if the have problems to drop me a line on the forums, so you can see what people really think.

 

See, here's the thing....

 

...They aren't "your" mobs, anymore than anyone else's. They aren't "yours" even if you CC'd them. Hard for some to understand, I know. 

 

And.. I'm fairly certain that posing as another person of the community isn't allowed. So I'll go ahead and report that. And can't say I'm surprised someone entirely focused on themselves would suggest such a thing.

[dukedukes]

Yesterday someone tried to annoy me by using knockback, I thought that was interesting. I was grouping mobs with singularity and I saw them change strategy half way through the mission. They decided to KB (enhanced) on the initiation so I couldn't group them together, then after the mission said "hello" with a fortune telling. I guess knockback can be used as a tool for people who like to piss others off. I wonder if there's any terrorists like this roaming around making people hate knockback... Ignore lists exist for a reason at least. I hope to run into them again on the right character, some PvEvP would be fun. KB doesn't bother me but the intent in this case stood out.

[Maelwys]

6 hours ago, Neiska said:

Sure. It's annoying. 100% agree on that. But why does only "their" enjoyment count? Let's say someone uses KB as a form of mitigation during solo play and builds around that. Like an Energy Blast/FF or whatever. They don't get a say either? That's what concerns me more than the KB issue itself. 

 

For me it's a question of disruption. Combine a knockback user and a knockback hater together on a team and only one of those parties is disrupting the other and spoiling their fun. (And yet when the person being disrupted asks the disruptor to stop - which yes, would potentially disrupt their enjoyment - they're apparently the the bad guy because they were polite about it and asked first?)

 

I get that knockback is a part of the game. But lots of knockback effects have become knockdown over the years because it's simply not mechanically effective to throw logs away from the woodchipper. There are still many KB powers left in specific powersets but the Devs gave us non-unique KB->KD IOs to let the players of those sets choose. So personally I'd just like there to be less opportunity cost for someone who wants to make that same choice across multiple powers.

 

If Person A's playstyle is overly disruptive to Person B, then there's a problem. It's on the Team Leader to listen to the whinging complaints and ultimately call the shot... but I've personally observed a great many instances over the years where multiple team members have become so annoyed by the actions of one person that most of the members just drop (and often immediately reform, without the offender or the leader). I think I mentioned "Intangibility/Cage" powers earlier, and they're by far the worst offenders I can remember. But Speed Boost (slotted for run speed) and Team Fly/Team Teleport before Null the Gull was a thing are in there too... so it's definitely not just down to bad usage of AoE knockbacks and Fold Space. (And if someone's determined to troll then spamming an AoE Immobilize isn't likely to stop them...)

[Maelwys]

1 hour ago, Neiska said:

They aren't "your" mobs, anymore than anyone else's. They aren't "yours" even if you CC'd them. Hard for some to understand, I know. 

 

If/when I'm on a melee toon and someone repeatedly punts half a dozen mobs out of my PBAoEs, you better believe that someone has just claimed ownership of those mobs. So I'll happily just leave them to it and go tackle the next pack... 🙂

[Neiska]

19 minutes ago, Maelwys said:

 

If/when I'm on a melee toon and someone repeatedly punts half a dozen mobs out of my PBAoEs, you better believe that someone has just claimed ownership of those mobs. So I'll happily just leave them to it and go tackle the next pack... 🙂

 

Sure, and its your right to do so. Just as its their right to blow the next one away as well. A mature group would communicate, you know, just say "hey can you please stop KB so much?" like most adults. Not just presume they are being malicious about it. (I do want to add, i am pretty sure you fall into the normal adult category.) 

 

But so many here want to light their torches and grab their pitchforks for people just using powers as they are meant to. "You play MY way. Or ELSE" energy.

[longdayinrehab]

As someone who has had a nrg/nrg blaster main for most of my time playing CoH, I can tell you that generally folks are much less hostile to you if you have KB these days than they used to be. You'll still get some people complaining about it, but it has become fairly rare. Just stick a KB->KD in your aoe powers and you'll be fine. The other side is to pick your ST power targets carefully. Pick someone nobody else is fighting and if you knock them out of the mosh pit, they are now your responsibility to take out. That said, if you invest in a 2nd build, make one for soloing that doesn't worry about the KB. It's really fun to go ham with it sometimes.