New rare enhancers that grant status protection in Karma/Steadfast Protection

[MsSmart]

23 hours ago, Rudra said:

Do you want to bet on that? You just made a huge assumption, and it is wrong. I don't think any players are forced to stock large amounts of any inspirations. I don't even pay attention to the inspirations I get. I put in the effort to know what I am fighting and take down targets in order of priority. I don't "munch inspirations like chips during a football game". So congratulations. You just swallowed your foot and a better part of your leg with that statement.

 

I think you get the idea, perhaps the word I should had used is obliged as opposed to forced, but the principle stands.

 

Getting tired of the idiotic nit picking, so I am done with this thread

[Rudra]

3 hours ago, MsSmart said:

I think you get the idea, perhaps the word I should had used is obliged as opposed to forced, but the principle stands.

 

Getting tired of the idiotic nit picking, so I am done with this thread

Ways to deal with negative statuses in the game:

 

1: Play a resistant AT. Melee ATs and Sentinels have built in mez protection in their armor sets.

2: Grab pool powers. Multiple power pools have powers that grant resistance, and in some cases grant protection, against specific effects. And any AT can take them.

3: Check your targets then neutralize in priority. Most enemy info tabs include at least hints about the mezzes and other status effects they can apply. Figure out who to take down first.

4: Bring or craft inspirations. If you are expecting to deal with mezzes and lack protection/resistance, either bring inspirations or craft them from drops as you go to protect you.

5: Hit up the Super Group Empowerment Station. The base empowerment stations let players craft resistances and protections that last 90 minutes each.

6: Slot IO set enhancements. Multiple IO sets include some form of mez mitigation in them, set bonus or individually. Typically only resistance, but resistance still reduces mez duration.

7: Ask a friend for help. Other players are more than willing to team, and having someone there to take the mezzes for you or to clear them from you goes a long way.

Edit: 8: Craft a status protection Incarnate power. Clarion gives like Mag 15 protection against most negative statuses for up to 2 minutes at a time.

 

Edited yesterday at 01:02 AM by Rudra

[Indystruck]

+4 mez prot for free at all times is way too much protection, honestly.

[Psi-bolt]

11 hours ago, Indystruck said:

+4 mez prot for free at all times is way too much protection, honestly.

 

Is it free?  Or too easy?  To gain status protection against all the effects noted here you would need:

 

1) A defense power (admittedly the easiest requirement with Hover, Maneuvers, and Combat Jumping)

2) A resist power (not too difficult, but will require two power picks for most non Melee/Sentinel players until Epic Power Pools)

3) 6 additional slots

 

I've been thinking a lot about the arguments that Rudra and MsSmart made earlier in the thread about what the devs intended.  And I guess it is as good a time as any to describe why I thought it would be worthwhile to post this even though I intuitively agree with you that +4 status enhancers might be too much.

 

My thought process about this suggestion started with a question:   Is there a balance reason why melees/Sentinels get mostly full status protection and other ATs (mostly) don't.   And I kept coming to the same conclusion.  I think that the ATs that don't have status protection baked in, don't have it because status effects need to affect someone.   Now I know some will reject that framing, but I would argue that there isn't a significant tradeoff in this game between having status effect protection and not.   

 

If you have status effect protection even the worst player will understand that they need to take those powers immediately.  Status effects in this game last a very long time and it is possible for NPCs (going to ignore PvP for now) to mez lock you and kill you.   That would kinda be OK if there was a significant tradeoff.  Like ATs without status protection had some countervailing benefit.   Blasters arguably do have such a benefit in the extreme damage they do.  I'm not sure about the rest.  

 

Like many issues in this game, status effects seem to have been haphazardly implemented.  This necessitated giving melees pretty much constant protection.   Melees used to have drawbacks on some status effect protection.  For example, Unyielding and Rooted used to require you to be immobilized to have the protection.  That was take away to support tanking and to reflect how the game is actually played.   But when they did that, they set up a pretty big disparity IMO in that some ATs ignore status effects and for others it's a deadly threat.  I just think that's a poor implementation.

 

I have played other games where status effects worked on everyone, but their effect wasn't so overwhelming.  Star Wars the Old Republic had a good implementation I think.   In that game basically everyone had a stun (which operates how holds do here), but it was on a 1 minute cooldown, only lasted 4 seconds and was single target.   There were limited abilities that improved it, but for the most part that's all you got.  Also, every character got a power that allowed you to break free of status effects on the same cooldown.  Obviously that implementation wouldn't work for City of Heroes at this point.  I mention it to note that I don't think that status effects are terrible, I think their implementation in this game is terrible.

 

 So with that in mind, I think that the status quo is simply unfair.  I genuinely think that every character should have a means to obtain some status effect protection and not merely resistance.   I don't know if my suggestion in the OP is the right way to do it.   Maybe for ranged units it would be better if they had a "break free" type of click power that had a cooldown and several seconds of extreme protection to deal with situations where a character is mez locked.

 

All that said, I appreciate the discussion.

[tidge]

42 minutes ago, Psi-bolt said:

My thought process about this suggestion started with a question:   Is there a balance reason why melees/Sentinels get mostly full status protection and other ATs (mostly) don't.   And I kept coming to the same conclusion.  I think that the ATs that don't have status protection baked in, don't have it because status effects need to affect someone.   Now I know some will reject that framing, but I would argue that there isn't a significant tradeoff in this game between having status effect protection and not.   

 

Allow me to be an early rejector of this framing. It really does look to me like the game has always had trade-offs baked in.

 

ATs with 'armors' typically only have offense from one of either the primary or secondary. Kheldian Dwarfs get awesome mezz protection, but... Dwarf.

 

VEATs somewhat stand alone.

 

Control ATs get multiple controls of their own to leverage. MMs get henchmen. Many 'control' sets offer pets. Defenders/Corrs choose between buffs or debuffs (generally) plus ranged attacks. Doms (can) get perma-immunity to control.

 

Blasters get excellent damage scales and attacks in both primary and secondary... plus sustains, plus an inherent that allows attacks while mezzed, plus some controls of their own.

 

The only ATs that I find annoying to be susceptible to PVE 'control' are Controllers... they can grab a lot of aggro, and don't have extra damage to deal with RNG misses of enemies. Once I have 15+ inspiration slots I typically don't worry about PVE control. 

[Psi-bolt]

17 minutes ago, tidge said:

 

Allow me to be an early rejector of this framing. It really does look to me like the game has always had trade-offs baked in.

 

ATs with 'armors' typically only have offense from one of either the primary or secondary. Kheldian Dwarfs get awesome mezz protection, but... Dwarf.

 

That was probably true at the beginning....to a point.  Damage auras existed for Tankers at least, but later sets have added actual attacks to the secondaries.   And outliers like Fire exist, but that has internal tradeoffs for its attacks.

 

Quote

VEATs somewhat stand alone.

 

They do, but understandable since they are "epic" ATs.  Why Kheldians don't get status protection has always eluded me other than the default, "status effects have to effect someone."

 

Quote

Control ATs get multiple controls of their own to leverage. MMs get henchmen. Many 'control' sets offer pets. Defenders/Corrs choose between buffs or debuffs (generally) plus ranged attacks. Doms (can) get perma-immunity to control.

 

Blasters get excellent damage scales and attacks in both primary and secondary... plus sustains, plus an inherent that allows attacks while mezzed, plus some controls of their own.

 

The only ATs that I find annoying to be susceptible to PVE 'control' are Controllers... they can grab a lot of aggro, and don't have extra damage to deal with RNG misses of enemies. Once I have 15+ inspiration slots I typically don't worry about PVE control. 

 

So I don't exactly disagree with this.   But are these the tradeoffs solely to status effects or are they baked into the combination of offense, defense, etc. that makes up a whole AT?   I would say the latter.   If we look at the ATs as a whole, then I would probably agree that Blasters after Defiance probably have the best tradeoffs.   Extreme damage, extreme risk.   That's fair to me.   It's actually fun in a way.  I usually don't even try to increase the protection on my Blasters.  It's a different playstyle and can be really fun.  

 

The rest....well I'm not sure that the tradeoffs are exactly worth it.  If Defenders/Corrupters/Controllers/MMs could use their buffing powers on themselves, absolutely that would be a good tradeoff.   This is obviously a matter of opinion but I don't see the same tradeoffs on an AT level.  Some individual sets like Kinetics are clearly worth the risk in teams at least.   Conversely, Sonic and Force Field (and even Electric to an extent) just provide status protection and so the tradeoff there is more intra-AT.

 

On balance, I am persuaded that status effects have to do something and so just giving every AT status protection for free is undesirable.  But I likewise don't think it's a problem if there were a way to build your character to reduce or eliminate.   We can do that now with Rune, Acrobatics, etc.  I don't think an Invention is too unreasonable.  Perhaps spread it out more, reduce the MAG to 2, make it strong resistance, etc.

[Uun]

46 minutes ago, Psi-bolt said:

Why Kheldians don't get status protection has always eluded me other than the default, "status effects have to effect someone."

Kheldians get status protection in Dwarf form. They also get -1 mag mez protection for each controller or dominator on the team. 

[Psi-bolt]

10 minutes ago, Uun said:

Kheldians get status protection in Dwarf form. They also get -1 mag mez protection for each controller or dominator on the team. 

 

I'm aware.   I meant why they don't get a toggle in human form while having armor toggles.  

[tidge]

I don't think folks are wrong for being peeved by mezz effects... but I do think we (players) are in a generally very good place (balance-wise) for PvE controls (and debuffs, including slows, KB, etc.... and even taunt/placates). 

 

Controls always felt like they were being tweaked on Live... the light-speed stunned-runaways, threats, fears... and of course what happened when PVP was introduced. 

 

Homecoming has come a long (positive, IMO) way with controls. Threat and Sleep are no longer auto-skips, adaptive recharge for AoE holds has brought them into better alignment with the end-of-Live Blaster nuke changes. On the flip side, we've got new powers and powersets that really help with PvE mezzes (like Electricity, which may be my favorite 'heal/buff' set).

 

I will say: I think the HC team has somewhat dropped the ball by not giving us a few new Fear or Threat enhancement sets, as the 20-50 options are missing combinations that powers can take, such as Accuracy and Endurance Reduction combination pieces... sure we have some HO/DS options, but those are extremely limited (and can be slotted in other powers besides Threat or Fear)

 

Finally: HC has made it possible for players to 'hang' in content that have spawn sizes/difficulty turned up. One consequence of this is that it becomes more likely for critter controls to hit/last/stack.

[Rudra]

3 hours ago, Psi-bolt said:

But are these the tradeoffs solely to status effects or are they baked into the combination of offense, defense, etc. that makes up a whole AT?   I would say the latter. 

Why would the tradeoffs be different for mezzes and the AT as a whole? It's all part of the AT's tradeoffs. There is no difference between "Well, this AT gets these traits just because it is this AT" and "What should this AT be able to do or not in exchange for mez resistance/protection?". The mezz resistance/protection or lack is part of the AT tradeoffs/design.

 

Edit: What are the tradeoffs? Melees have to risk extra aggro when they close to fight enemies. Controllers and Dominators get to lock down their enemies, including entire spawns. Blasters, Defenders, and Corruptors get to pick out targets, obliterate them at a distance, and if need be, run away and wait for the spawn to reset to resume picking off threats. Masterminds have their pets to keep fighting for them even if the MM is perma-mezzed unless the pets get wiped out. And Sentinels? ... are the best of both worlds between range and melee ATs, but get lower values (including range) for getting all that.

 

Edited 17 hours ago by Rudra
Edited to separate comparison thoughts into separate thoughts.

[Psi-bolt]

22 minutes ago, Rudra said:

Why would the tradeoffs be different for mezzes and the AT as a whole? It's all part of the AT's tradeoffs. There is no difference between "Well, this AT gets these traits just because it is this AT" and "What should this AT be able to do or not in exchange for mez resistance/protection?". The mezz resistance/protection or lack is part of the AT tradeoffs/design.

 

Edit: What are the tradeoffs? Melees have to risk extra aggro when they close to fight enemies. Controllers and Dominators get to lock down their enemies, including entire spawns. Blasters, Defenders, and Corruptors get to pick out targets, obliterate them at a distance, and if need be, run away and wait for the spawn to reset to resume picking off threats. Masterminds have their pets to keep fighting for them even if the MM is perma-mezzed unless the pets get wiped out. And Sentinels? ... are the best of both worlds between range and melee ATs, but get lower values (including range) for getting all that.

 

 

I think you're correct that this is the status quo for ATs.  I wonder, however, if this is balanced.    I'll give you a concrete example:

 

I've been playing my EM/EA Tanker recently.  While I agree that it is intended that melees risk extra aggro, I would say that the compensations they have for that make that a net benefit.  The tanker in question can take on large groups of enemies with little danger.   The ranged ATs, even ones I have gotten softcapped can't do that.  Is that balanced?  I don't know to be honest.  

 

I think the melees are fairly balanced against each other.   I almost think that the ranged units are playing a different game.   Maybe that's the idea.  I do love my Blasters and that dangerous playstyle.  I don't get the sense, however, that's what's intended for the other ATs.

[Rudra]

16 minutes ago, Psi-bolt said:

I've been playing my EM/EA Tanker recently.  While I agree that it is intended that melees risk extra aggro, I would say that the compensations they have for that make that a net benefit.  The tanker in question can take on large groups of enemies with little danger.   The ranged ATs, even ones I have gotten softcapped can't do that.  Is that balanced?  I don't know to be honest.  

Your Tanker should be able to tank enemy spawns, yes. Absolutely. Your Blaster should not be able to tank enemy spawns. Yes, it is absolutely balanced. Your Tanker, and any other melee AT for that matter, can look at a spawn, check the mobs in that spawn, and know who to take down in what order to survive the aggro the character is going to endure. And then if there are other nearby groups, hopefully have enough resists (damage and mez) to survive or escape. Your range ATs can look at a spawn, check the mobs in that spawn, and know who to take down in what order. And then continue grinding down the enemies in that single spawn as they close or move to their own engagement ranges, or go "Nope, that didn't work" and escape to try again. Your control ATs can look at a spawn, check the mobs in that spawn, and know who to lock down as a priority and who to hinder, and commence locking down the mob/spawn, or go "Crap, that didn't work" and escape to try again. The advantage of being able to stand outside mob aggro radius, go "Hmm", and then start picking the spawn apart, and having time to do a fast evaluation as to whether you should continue to engage or escape before the enemy can lock you down.

 

Edit: That facerolling content is all the rage and is fairly easy to do with every AT if you build the character for it does not mean the game should make facerolling content easier than it already is.

 

Edited 16 hours ago by Rudra

[MTeague]

8 hours ago, tidge said:

The only ATs that I find annoying to be susceptible to PVE 'control' are Controllers... they can grab a lot of aggro, and don't have extra damage to deal with RNG misses of enemies. Once I have 15+ inspiration slots I typically don't worry about PVE control. 

 

Depends on the Controller powerset, and depends what you have your notoriety set to.  If you're set to +1x2 or something, most controllers can lock down the enemy mezzers before they can even react.  Mind is Especially good at this (Mass Hyp, Confuse, are both non-aggroing), but Plant/Spore burst will sleep them and you should be able to make sure they never wake up again.  Dark/Possess, Illusion/Deceive, heck even Earth Control.... some form of Stealth, even a Celerity Stealth Proc in sprint, plus Salt Crystals = PBAE deep sleep, and you can easily keep enemy mezzers in a Hold until they're dead. 

 

I'm sure there's some permutation of Controller that struggles mightily with it.  But even my Ice/Cold controller does right fine.

 

EDIT:  now, if you're soloing at +4x8, sure, there may be too many to lockdown. But that's a choice. 

Edited 13 hours ago by MTeague