I want to Assasin's Strike this facist turd.

[mechahamham]

I love that we've got some more color to the various spawns in Brickstown. The Crey encounters where they're threatening or even killing civilians are chilling and will fill even the kindest hearts with rage.

 

And then there are these hosers:

 

 

When you attack the Council soldiers, these asshats get to run away to the nearest door like civilian NPCs. I want to arrest this guy, even if I don't get experience or influence for it. On my less patient characters, I want to arrest this guy into a greasy smear on the asphalt.

 

Can we adjust these guys so that they have the same level and abilities as like a level 1 Hellion?

 

Barring that, can we make them go into the 'hands behind head' pose after we've taken out their supersoldier friends rather than just getting to run away?

 

(I'd also like to rough up the council trainees that tend to appear in the East part of the zone, but I suspect that would likely be more development effort.)

 

Thank you for helping me to stamp out fascism.

[kelika2]

isnt using power and influence to get your way and force others to think like you fascism?

[Steampunkette]

13 hours ago, kelika2 said:

isnt using power and influence to get your way and force others to think like you fascism?

No.

 

You should probably go read more about fascism from a reputable source if you do not understand what fascism is.

 

I could outline the various characteristics of fascism, but that's not really what this forum is for and would likely result in moderator activity.

[lemming]

And just to point out, Council & 5th Column are straight up fascist groups in game history.   So, the OP using the label for them is accurate.   

[kelika2]

7 hours ago, Steampunkette said:

No.

 

You should probably go read more about fascism from a reputable source if you do not understand what fascism is.

 

I could outline the various characteristics of fascism, but that's not really what this forum is for and would likely result in moderator activity.

Well whats the name when another group that bestows violence in all forms(even mean forum posts) when other groups and factions basically do the same thing as fascism?

[biostem]

This thread is a powder keg waiting to blow.  Create an AE arc and you can do with them what you wish, there...

[Krimson]

8 hours ago, Steampunkette said:

No.

 

You should probably go read more about fascism from a reputable source if you do not understand what fascism is.

 

I could outline the various characteristics of fascism, but that's not really what this forum is for and would likely result in moderator activity.

Good luck gaslighting gamers who have known about the established history of the 5th Column and Council for over 20 YEARS! 

 

6th word of the FIRST SENTENCE! https://archive.paragonwiki.com/wiki/5th_Column

 

It always telling when someone needs to 'Splain fascism. Were you playing this game 20 years ago? I was. Where were you then to explain this to us?

[Gerswin]

It is trendy to complain about fascists, but at least the trains ran on time. Not like the urine soaked habitually late transit service we have in Paragon City.

[El D]

All for giving the recruiters actual stats. Enemy groups having more varied options for broader level ranges is always a good thing (provided said enemy group has expanded level bands) and anyway, if the Council are going to malefactor for some lackey, they all knew the risks taking Chumpy McMouthpiece into a zone he isn't leveled for.

 

Honestly I wouldn't mind more instances of stuff like this in-general. Low level Hellions captured by the Circle of Thorns in Talos. Low level Skulls picking up Superadine shipments in Independence Port/Striga. A Knives of Artemis mob having captured a member of the Legacy Chain or a Malta Group spawn interrogating an Outcast. There's a lot of interactive instances between groups that canonically work together or would be opposed to one another that'd help make the game world feel that much more interconnected.

Edited Thursday at 10:30 PM by El D

[Steampunkette]

2 hours ago, Krimson said:

Good luck gaslighting gamers who have known about the established history of the 5th Column and Council for over 20 YEARS! 

 

6th word of the FIRST SENTENCE! https://archive.paragonwiki.com/wiki/5th_Column

 

It always telling when someone needs to 'Splain fascism. Were you playing this game 20 years ago? I was. Where were you then to explain this to us?

Did you read the post I was responding to in which kelika2 asked "isnt using power and influence to get your way and force others to think like you fascism?"

 

Which is different from asking "Is the fifth column fascist?"

 

I know reading comprehension isn't a priority for some folks but yikes.

 

Someone proposed a false definition of fascism which amounted to "Is all authoritarianism and use of political power fascism?" and I said "No". Because it isn't.

Edited yesterday at 12:34 AM by Steampunkette

[lemming]

Well, I think we should ignore the derail and just go with:

Should the NPCs that seem to be associated with the villain groups in the open world be targetable, or at least surrender when their handlers get arrested?

[Rudra]

5 minutes ago, lemming said:

Well, I think we should ignore the derail and just go with:

Should the NPCs that seem to be associated with the villain groups in the open world be targetable, or at least surrender when their handlers get arrested?

As often as I want to take down the Council Recruiter as well, I'm going to have to say I'm fine with the recruiters running for their lives rather than be subject to our attacks. We're supposed to be heroes (or at least heroic in public as vigilantes), and taking down the recruiters just because they are saying something I don't agree with is not something I could justify even in a Paragon City court of law. Not without my character portraying himself/herself/themselves/itself as some sort of intolerant bigot that can't even stand to let others express their opinion and attempt to sway them off that opinion peacefully. The whole free speech and differences of opinion thing. The Council in uniform with the recruiter? Yeah, they're both in uniform signifying them as combatants and they have their weapons on them as evidenced when they aggro on a player or a player on them.

 

Besides, wouldn't a true blue hero, not that I think most characters being run in the game actually are true blue heroes, give someone like the recruiter who has not personally taken up arms against the city (to the best of our knowledge from that brief interaction) a chance to repent and leave the Council? And wouldn't the most effective means of doing so be to let that person see how easily the Council propaganda falls apart as soon as someone (not all heroes have super powers in the game) challenges it and let that person run back to tell others in the group how wrong they were about the Council being strong and their avenue to strength and power? And wouldn't it suit a vigilante better to track that running recruiter back to whatever cell he is part of to finish taking the group down?

 

Anyway, just some (philosophical) thoughts on the matter.

[lemming]

4 minutes ago, Rudra said:

Anyway, just some (philosophical) thoughts on the matter.

I think it is subject to the character in question.

 

It was once described as you can decide for yourself if the mobs you arrest are arrested or dead.    (by Jack iirc)

 

Using such logic (and I use this sort of logic all the time, examples later), you could just imagine it yourself what your character does.   The game code is limited, your imagination is not.

 

Example:   Getting the various mayhem badges on a hero.  Actually built up a record showing this, but it was all a false cover.  etc...

[Glacier Peak]

What is this thread. 

[MTeague]

2 hours ago, Rudra said:

As often as I want to take down the Council Recruiter as well, I'm going to have to say I'm fine with the recruiters running for their lives rather than be subject to our attacks. We're supposed to be heroes (or at least heroic in public as vigilantes), and taking down the recruiters just because they are saying something I don't agree with is not something I could justify even in a Paragon City court of law.

When we can "arrest" Hellions with a Battle Axe to the FACE, (or any number of moves that should be instantly fatal to a purse snatcher) less than 100 yards from City Hall, and people just thank us, I don't think the Paragon City court of law is all that concerned. Or possibly, they're afraid of us.  And I think many players probably have some kind of character roleplayed as an "I AM  the law" type of Vigilante, or at least roleplayed as a "You can't HANDLE the truth!" type of character who honestly does not consider themselves answerable to the PPD, even if they're still registered hero / vigilante to  the city.

 

Either way, we get to chop up similar council dudes standing on a soapbox in Steel Canyon or Independence Port. I would not object to them making this recruiter in Brickstown similarly maul-able.  But in terms of priority, I would put this about as low as it could go.  I'd worry about things like the wierd extra characters consumed in the backstory editor, first. For anything short-term, an AE vigilante themed mission is probably best.

Edited yesterday at 04:30 AM by MTeague
fix typos/grammar

[Rudra]

18 minutes ago, MTeague said:

When we can "arrest" Hellions with a Battle Axe to the FACE, (or any number of moves that should be instantly fatal to a purse snatcher) less than 100 yards from City Hall, and people just thank us, I don't think the Paragon City court of law is all that concerned.

In Paragon City, you are taking on gangsters in their colors or uniforms. And in the case of the Hellions and Skulls, typically in the middle of an active crime or just after. (That Hellion or Skull rifling through a purse while looking around to see if anyone is going to stop him is still obviously guilty and that purse, if it has the owner's identification in it, is proof of crime. Those Hellions standing in groups at the burning building are guilty of arson. And those Hellions or Skulls or enter other faction that are just leaning against the wall or whatever are still dressed in their factions' uniforms or colors advertising their faction's presence and "ownership" of the area as well as intimidating the locals. Some charges are going to be much harder to press in court and secure anything over, but a good lawyer can find something for people broadcasting their affiliation with a known gang.) Those recruiters aren't wearing Council uniforms. And with Council soldiers present, may have been coerced into giving the recruitment speech. Which could be why the recruiter runs, finally having a chance to get away from the Council, but not wanting to surrender to an unknown hostility level super. And besides, recruiting people into a group, no matter how much the community opposes said group, is not itself illegal. Even in Paragon City.

 

24 minutes ago, MTeague said:

And I think many players probably have some kind of character roleplayed as an "I AM  the law" type of Vigilante, or at least roleplayed as a "You can't HANDLE the truth!" type of character who honestly does not consider themselves answerable to the PPD, even if they're still registered hero / vigilante to  the city.

Hence my comment that I don't think most characters in the game are true blue heroes. I know there are different types of characters being played along the moral and legal spectrums. My comment wasn't to invalidate them in any way, just provide a philosophical answer to a question. One I know has multiple other responses for waiting in the wings.

 

26 minutes ago, MTeague said:

Either way, we get to chop up similar council dudes standing on a soapbox in Steel Canyon or Independence Port.

Those individuals are in 5th Column or Council uniforms carrying assorted weapons they eagerly brandish and use against anyone weak enough for them to be confident against, even if delusionally. The recruiters on the other hand are unarmed non-combatants that flee the scene.

 

28 minutes ago, MTeague said:

I would not object to them making this recruiter in Brickstown similarly maul-able.

Honestly, neither would I. I have more often wished I could take him down than I have not cared. That isn't the point of my comment. The point of my comment was to get other players to consider possibilities as to why such an NPC would be non-targetable in the first place.

[biostem]

1 hour ago, MTeague said:

I would not object to them making this recruiter in Brickstown similarly maul-able.

I'm looking at this in a strictly non-real-world context, but my take on those non-targetable recruiters is that they are non-combatants;  They may be ideologically aligned with the Council or 5th Column, but they are not trained combatants.  I'm not arguing for us attacking them from any standpoint beyond that they have no attacks, and our characters generally cannot attack targets that have no abilities... I mean, I guess they could give them some attacks or have them kind of act like DE "emitters"...

[Steampunkette]

11 hours ago, Rudra said:

As often as I want to take down the Council Recruiter as well, I'm going to have to say I'm fine with the recruiters running for their lives rather than be subject to our attacks. We're supposed to be heroes (or at least heroic in public as vigilantes), and taking down the recruiters just because they are saying something I don't agree with is not something I could justify even in a Paragon City court of law. Not without my character portraying himself/herself/themselves/itself as some sort of intolerant bigot that can't even stand to let others express their opinion and attempt to sway them off that opinion peacefully. The whole free speech and differences of opinion thing. The Council in uniform with the recruiter? Yeah, they're both in uniform signifying them as combatants and they have their weapons on them as evidenced when they aggro on a player or a player on them.

 

Besides, wouldn't a true blue hero, not that I think most characters being run in the game actually are true blue heroes, give someone like the recruiter who has not personally taken up arms against the city (to the best of our knowledge from that brief interaction) a chance to repent and leave the Council? And wouldn't the most effective means of doing so be to let that person see how easily the Council propaganda falls apart as soon as someone (not all heroes have super powers in the game) challenges it and let that person run back to tell others in the group how wrong they were about the Council being strong and their avenue to strength and power? And wouldn't it suit a vigilante better to track that running recruiter back to whatever cell he is part of to finish taking the group down?

 

Anyway, just some (philosophical) thoughts on the matter.

I would say that the 'difference of opinion' issue is a red herring.

 

Someone can -think- the 5th Column is a good idea and be shunned out of society until they change their opinion, sure. The recruiters aren't doing that. They're hanging out with a known international terrorist army in the streets of Paragon encouraging passerby to sign up for a fresh brainwashing by an army attempting to occupy Paragon City, which openly and flagrantly attacks superheroes, cops, criminals, and passerby.

 

That goes from tacit support to material support, and opens them up to legal action and arrest...

 

Via battle axe to the face.

[Rudra]

4 hours ago, Steampunkette said:

I would say that the 'difference of opinion' issue is a red herring.

 

Someone can -think- the 5th Column is a good idea and be shunned out of society until they change their opinion, sure. The recruiters aren't doing that. They're hanging out with a known international terrorist army in the streets of Paragon encouraging passerby to sign up for a fresh brainwashing by an army attempting to occupy Paragon City, which openly and flagrantly attacks superheroes, cops, criminals, and passerby.

 

That goes from tacit support to material support, and opens them up to legal action and arrest...

 

Via battle axe to the face.

There is still the concern of them being unarmed noncombatants though.

[Steampunkette]

8 minutes ago, Rudra said:

There is still the concern of them being unarmed noncombatants though.

That part is far more compelling, yeah.

 

So we give them all a pistol attack power...

[Rudra]

2 minutes ago, Steampunkette said:

That part is far more compelling, yeah.

 

So we give them all a pistol attack power...

Makes me think of some shows where the corrupt cops plant weapons or drugs on their targets to justify taking them down. If the target is an unarmed noncombatant, then the target is an unarmed noncombatant. Make them surrender when you take down the present Council? Sure. Make some idiot "armed" for the sake of being able to justify being able to attack? No. Doesn't work for me. May work for you and others, but it feels wrong for a super hero game to go out of its way to make an existing noncombatant superficially armed enough to justify attacking. If the devs do so? I won't complain. Hypocritical of me, I know. However, the argument to "just give them a pistol" or "make them like a level 1 Hellion" so people can blast them sits wrong with me.

[srmalloy]

57 minutes ago, Rudra said:

There is still the concern of them being unarmed noncombatants though.

You can make the same statement about the Crey personnel conducting PR briefings in Brickstown, who always have a number of yellow-con (putatively neutral) combatant Crey personnel in attendance. CreyCorp is, though, not "officially" designated as a criminal organization subject to its operations being shut down en masse.

[Steampunkette]

1 hour ago, Rudra said:

Makes me think of some shows where the corrupt cops plant weapons or drugs on their targets to justify taking them down. If the target is an unarmed noncombatant, then the target is an unarmed noncombatant. Make them surrender when you take down the present Council? Sure. Make some idiot "armed" for the sake of being able to justify being able to attack? No. Doesn't work for me. May work for you and others, but it feels wrong for a super hero game to go out of its way to make an existing noncombatant superficially armed enough to justify attacking. If the devs do so? I won't complain. Hypocritical of me, I know. However, the argument to "just give them a pistol" or "make them like a level 1 Hellion" so people can blast them sits wrong with me.

It was meant to be a joke!

 

That said, yeah, it'd be best if they just surrendered into one of several "Hands up" poses or something and then despawned after 5-10 seconds to represent them being arrested.

[Rudra]

2 hours ago, srmalloy said:

You can make the same statement about the Crey personnel conducting PR briefings in Brickstown, who always have a number of yellow-con (putatively neutral) combatant Crey personnel in attendance. CreyCorp is, though, not "officially" designated as a criminal organization subject to its operations being shut down en masse.

Can the Crey PR personnel be attacked? I thought they just ran away too. (Edit: Yep, just verified. The Crey Public Relations Representatives can't be attacked. Just makes the claim to behold how their Power Tanks can take on a hero as they run away.) (Edit again: And just like the Council, Crey employees get brainwashed if they have talents or skills Crey wants to retain. {See Crey arc name I can't remember.] And they are actively recruiting escaped prisoners.)

 

Edited yesterday at 09:18 PM by Rudra

[srmalloy]

2 hours ago, Rudra said:

Can the Crey PR personnel be attacked? I thought they just ran away too.

The Crey PR flacks are set up the same way as the Council recruiters, except that their support personnel are yellow-con instead of red-con, so they won't attack you if you get close -- unless you have some offensive aura power active -- but run away just like the recruiters. (I keep hearing Dennis' voice from Monty Python and the Holy Grail if I attack their support people to make up the count for a 'Defeat X Crey in Brickstown' mission -- "Now we see the violence inherent in the system!")