page 3 [FOCUSED FEEDBACK] Super Strength Adjustments

[PeregrineFalcon]

9 minutes ago, BrandX said:

Is Unleashed Might a way to port SS to Scrappers?

That was my first thought as well.

[Major_Decoy]

I kind of think Unleashed Might should cost Health and not Endurance.

 

The idea of Super Strength is that you're not really a trained fighter. You win fights not because you know what you're doing, but because you're REALLY STRONG. You muscle your way through, as it were.

 

So when you let go and stop holding back, you're hurting yourself too.

[kittowam]

I only have one SS character, an Inv/SS tank. Rage never fit the concept for the character so it was an easy choice to switch to UM. Took a couple of respecs to find the right build, but I ended up going with all of the powers from SS, sans Rage. I find the changes to be perfect for this character, though the damage dropoff from not using Rage is obvious. But I would rather take a little longer to clear the mission and have the powers better fit the concept. No opinion on the changes to the crash since I don't plan on using the power anymore.

[Erratic1]

2 minutes ago, Major_Decoy said:

The idea of Super Strength is that you're not really a trained fighter. You win fights not because you know what you're doing, but because you're REALLY STRONG. You muscle your way through, as it were.

 

Yes, Rogue, Thor, Wonderman, The Thing, Wonder Woman, Timer Wolf...don't know how to fight. 🙄

[oldskool]

I tried Rage and that -20% resistance debuff took my Tanker's resistances from 90% to 70%. 

Immediate respec into Unleashed Might. 

That Rage debuff is *brutal* for Tanks, on the flip side, I like Unleashed Might. I also really like having Handclap as a damage option. I was using Cross Punch to supplement AoE with Footstomp, but there is now some options in the primary. I appreciate that. 

Overall, I liked the changes with the exception of Rage. That new crash is not fun when a resistance set gets so heavily punished with that effect. 

[Major_Decoy]

11 minutes ago, Erratic1 said:

 

Yes, Rogue, Thor, Wonderman, The Thing, Wonder Woman, Timer Wolf...don't know how to fight. 🙄

 

If I could find one I would simply enter a gif of Knock-out blow's animation in response.

 

Edit:

 

Punch, that's a downward blow with the elbow, right? And a Haymaker is where I bring two hands down in an overhead blow?

 

Which is just to say that, As characterized in City of Heroes (the game) Super Strength characters do not seem to have any sort of martial training.

Edited yesterday at 02:37 AM by Major_Decoy

[Erratic1]

7 minutes ago, Major_Decoy said:

 

If I could find one I would simply enter a gif of Knock-out blow's animation in response.

 

Spiderman is known to have caught cars thrown at him and here is an uppercut:

Spoiler

 

[Major_Decoy]

2 minutes ago, Erratic1 said:

 

Spiderman is known to have caught cars thrown at him and here is an uppercut:

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

 

Spider-man is also known to have absolutely no martial training and getting through fights just because he's strong enough to win.

 

Edit: also hurting himself when he pushes himself too hard.

Edited yesterday at 02:46 AM by Major_Decoy

[Erratic1]

3 minutes ago, Major_Decoy said:

Spider-man is also known to have absolutely no martial training and getting through fights just because he's strong enough to win.

 

Edit: also hurting himself when he pushes himself too hard.

 

Both martial gods, one the god of strength in his pantheon, both with thousands of years of combat experience:

 

Spoiler

 

There is also the recent arc in Superman where he is enslaved and held powerless on War World by Mongul and made to fight--something he would have lost without martial training.

 

Wonder Woman can go up against Superman and was raised and trained on an island of warrior women.

 

The notion that super strength implies a lack of martial training is absurd.

[Major_Decoy]

Just now, Erratic1 said:

The notion that super strength implies a lack of martial training is absurd.

Quote

Punch, that's a downward blow with the elbow, right? And a Haymaker is where I bring two hands down in an overhead blow?

 

Which is just to say that, As characterized in City of Heroes (the game) Super Strength characters do not seem to have any sort of martial training. 

 

If you have other training, you eventually stop being a Super Strength character, as you're not relying upon it to get through fights.

 

Super Strength is a thing you have. It's only a fighting style if you have nothing else to go with.

[BrandX]

26 minutes ago, Major_Decoy said:

Spider-man is also known to have absolutely no martial training and getting through fights just because he's strong enough to win.

 

Edit: also hurting himself when he pushes himself too hard.

 

I believe he's been trained for awhile now.  It's just not something that's really important to his character.  Like his super strength.  He's strong enough now (at least on some stories) to carry a semi and run with it, but it's not his thing.  He's intellect, webbing and punches, not really displaying the strength so much.  May not have the super clap, but he's got the muscle now.

[GM_GooglyMoogly]

I think we are off on a comic book tangent.

 

Refocus please.

[Erratic1]

8 minutes ago, BrandX said:

 

I believe he's been trained for awhile now.  It's just not something that's really important to his character.  Like his super strength.  He's strong enough now (at least on some stories) to carry a semi and run with it, but it's not his thing.  He's intellect, webbing and punches, not really displaying the strength so much.  May not have the super clap, but he's got the muscle now.

 

Apparently Spiderman trained with Shang-Chi.

[Erratic1]

Jumped the test character to level 30 and slotted him with basic IOs in the same fashion I typically do at that point. Trying out how things handle by street-sweeping in Brickstown.

 

I did take Cross Punch and it is very handy having three AoE attacks, which between them can either put foes on their butts or stun them. Find a group, zip in and Foot Stomp, while foes are standing up, Cross Punch, and then once they are up, Hand Clap. Toss a few single-target attacks to finish off what is weak, then rinse and repeat.

[Wavicle]

2 hours ago, oldskool said:

I tried Rage and that -20% resistance debuff took my Tanker's resistances from 90% to 70%. 

Immediate respec into Unleashed Might. 

That Rage debuff is *brutal* for Tanks, on the flip side, I like Unleashed Might. I also really like having Handclap as a damage option. I was using Cross Punch to supplement AoE with Footstomp, but there is now some options in the primary. I appreciate that. 

Overall, I liked the changes with the exception of Rage. That new crash is not fun when a resistance set gets so heavily punished with that effect. 

The Rage crash is numerically identical to before. 

[PyroBeetle]

14 hours ago, Erratic1 said:

 

I do not think that word means what you think it means.

I think the word means exactly what I think it means the long standing metric has been 2 resistance equals 1 defense.

 

14 hours ago, Erratic1 said:

The claim of some sort or equality being reached relies only on looking at damage, but status effects exist in the game and there has been ABSOLUTELY NO WHINING BY THOSE CRYING HERE ABOUT EQUALITY AT LONG LAST BEING ACHIEVED about how resistance sets get hit with status effects that do not get delivered against defense sets due to not applying when an attack misses.

This particular axe doesn't need to be ground here, but if it were I would point out that you are conflating the word equitable with equal, and thus engaging in a strawman argument. I didnt say equal, I said equitable, meaning the change would have the same effect across sets now, resistance and defense, whereas before, it had no effect against resistance sets.

[Myrmidon]

It looks like the rollback on this patch will be T9 Armor powers (thanks sweet little eight pound, six ounce baby Jesus), which means that I can’t wait to get my hands on Unleashed Might.

[Eirei07]

Can we get the cone version of Hand Clap as just the default for the powerset? This way, both Rage users and UM users can utilize it. I do expect the "default" version would have lower base damage, and can be boosted by UM just like the other powers. 

 

I don't see any point in keeping two versions of the power. Not like Hand Clap was a popular pick, it's always been an easy skip, as far as I am aware. If people have had any use for normal Hand Clap, they would've used it already. And obviously, an alternate, more appealing version was conceived to encourage players to use it. Additionally, the slotting decision for the two versions are going to be very different, leaving little reason for a UM user to use normal Hand Clap as they won't benefit from their damage enchants, and it scatters the mobs because they obviously didn't slot kb to kd IO in it.

[Steampunkette]

10 hours ago, Wavicle said:

The Rage crash is numerically identical to before. 

But it's not, though...

 

Original: At 45% Defense dropping to 25%, a person is taking 400% more damage than they were. If they had 45% defense and 0% resistance to start, they've gone from taking 10% of all incoming damage to taking 50% of all incoming damage.

 

New:  At 45% Defense dropping to 35% with the 20% decrease in resistance (at resistance 0%), a person is taking 220% more damage than they were. If they had 45% defense and 0% resistance to start, they've gone from taking 10% of all incoming damage to taking 32% of all incoming damage.

 

This is a major win for Defense-Focused characters who take Superstrength.

 

But it also calculates differently for Resistance sets, too.

 

Original: At 0% Defense dropping to -20% defence results in a character with a 90% resistance to get hit 20% more often for 10% of incoming damage. Increasing the damage they take by 20%. Instead of taking 10% of all incoming damage they take 12%.

 

New: At 90% Resistance dropping to 70% with the 10% decrease in defense, a person is taking 230% more damage than they were. If they had 90% resistance and 0% defense to start, they've gone from taking 10% of all incoming damage to taking 33% of all incoming damage.

 

This is a huge nerf to Resistance-Focused characters who take Superstrength.

 

But it generates parity between the defensive build types rather than it being a no-brainer that you always go Resistance with a Superstrength character, which increases build variety. In either case, a couple of inspirations will fix it quickly. Or, y'know, overcapping your defensive attribute through IO sets or Teammates providing buffs.

 

Now if they had 45% Defense and 90% Resistance and then dropped to 35% and 70%? They'd add the values together for a massive 650% increase in damage taken! Instead of taking 1% of incoming damage they'll take 6.5% of incoming damage.

 

So. Yeah. It's a Nerf to SS/Res builds and a buff to SS/Def builds that brings them to near-equal levels of impact from Rage Crash. I still think 18.75% Resistance and 12.75% Defense would get them that little bit closer... but I haven't actually done the math on it.

[PyroBeetle]

21 minutes ago, Eirei07 said:

Can we get the cone version of Hand Clap as just the default for the powerset? This way, both Rage users and UM users can utilize it. I do expect the "default" version would have lower base damage, and can be boosted by UM just like the other powers. 

 

I don't see any point in keeping two versions of the power. Not like Hand Clap was a popular pick, it's always been an easy skip, as far as I am aware. If people have had any use for normal Hand Clap, they would've used it already. And obviously, an alternate, more appealing version was conceived to encourage players to use it. Additionally, the slotting decision for the two versions are going to be very different, leaving little reason for a UM user to use normal Hand Clap as they won't benefit from their damage enchants, and it scatters the mobs because they obviously didn't slot kb to kd IO in it.

I have never thought of Hand Clap as an easy skip, it was always a large part of mitigation and a consistent driver of FF procs, and regularly fired two damage procs. Was it a lot of damage no, but it was an AoE available on tanks earlier than L30. I would not want it to be a cone on my current SS build either as it is my  only 360 AoE before Foot Stomp and it plants a lit of mibs on their asses and buys me a lot of time. (Acually I used to build SS to get Cross Punch at 14 and HC right after then respec to get them both slotted out. HC normally gets 4 slots for me, the KB/KD no damage proc, the FF +recharge proc then the 2 damage slots it can fit, but really it does wonders with only the KB/KD as far as mitigation goes.)

 

Having the power modified by UM the way that it is, as UM is mutually exclusive from Rage, allows for the set to be a clear differentiation in playstyles, really what people were asking for the T9s before they were rolled back. If you want ti play your SS the way it was, at least damage wise, with Rage, then it will, otherwise the play revolves around the pick of UM instead. They build completely differently.

[PyroBeetle]

26 minutes ago, Steampunkette said:

So. Yeah. It's a Nerf to SS/Res builds and a buff to SS/Def builds that brings them to near-equal levels of impact from Rage Crash. I still think 18.75% Resistance and 12.75% Defense would get them that little bit closer... but I haven't actually done the math on it.

 

I think this is the point entirely. People do love the current rage and have several builds around it, so they cannot eliminate it, but they can make it have an equitable effect across the armor sets.

[Eirei07]

1 hour ago, PyroBeetle said:

I have never thought of Hand Clap as an easy skip, it was always a large part of mitigation and a consistent driver of FF procs, and regularly fired two damage procs. Was it a lot of damage no, but it was an AoE available on tanks earlier than L30. I would not want it to be a cone on my current SS build either as it is my  only 360 AoE before Foot Stomp and it plants a lit of mibs on their asses and buys me a lot of time. (Acually I used to build SS to get Cross Punch at 14 and HC right after then respec to get them both slotted out. HC normally gets 4 slots for me, the KB/KD no damage proc, the FF +recharge proc then the 2 damage slots it can fit, but really it does wonders with only the KB/KD as far as mitigation goes.)

 

Having the power modified by UM the way that it is, as UM is mutually exclusive from Rage, allows for the set to be a clear differentiation in playstyles, really what people were asking for the T9s before they were rolled back. If you want ti play your SS the way it was, at least damage wise, with Rage, then it will, otherwise the play revolves around the pick of UM instead. They build completely differently.

 

What differentiation in playstyles? Are they not the same thing. Hitting mobs with it, be it cone or PBAOE was just a matter of positioning. The cone is incredibly generous anyway, I've tested it. Are you saying you were using it with the kb or something?

 

Is this differentiation in the Hand Clap even desired? I don't see long winded posts, like in the T9 threads, about people being thankful that the old Hand Clap is preserved. The difference between Rage and UM was supposed to be about the risk vs reward of how you're dealing damage, I thought (not that it was implemented well imo, but that's beside the point).

Edited 21 hours ago by Eirei07

[Myrmidon]

14 hours ago, GM_GooglyMoogly said:

I think we are off on a comic book tangent.

 

Refocus please.

 

Sure thing. 
 

Just one question. Who are the Chefs?

[Steampunkette]

5 hours ago, PyroBeetle said:

I have never thought of Hand Clap as an easy skip, it was always a large part of mitigation and a consistent driver of FF procs, and regularly fired two damage procs. Was it a lot of damage no, but it was an AoE available on tanks earlier than L30. I would not want it to be a cone on my current SS build either as it is my  only 360 AoE before Foot Stomp and it plants a lit of mibs on their asses and buys me a lot of time. (Acually I used to build SS to get Cross Punch at 14 and HC right after then respec to get them both slotted out. HC normally gets 4 slots for me, the KB/KD no damage proc, the FF +recharge proc then the 2 damage slots it can fit, but really it does wonders with only the KB/KD as far as mitigation goes.)

 

Having the power modified by UM the way that it is, as UM is mutually exclusive from Rage, allows for the set to be a clear differentiation in playstyles, really what people were asking for the T9s before they were rolled back. If you want ti play your SS the way it was, at least damage wise, with Rage, then it will, otherwise the play revolves around the pick of UM instead. They build completely differently.

I have a SS/SR Brute on Test... 

 

I slotted both Handclap and Footstomp with Force Feedback. 6 slots.

 

It feels -amazing- to slap a crowd of skulls around, then footstomp before they get out of range of it. Then fight the people who didn't get knocked back with my ST chain while the others file back in.

 

[Erratic1]

1 hour ago, Steampunkette said:

I have a SS/SR Brute on Test... 

 

I slotted both Handclap and Footstomp with Force Feedback. 6 slots.

 

It feels -amazing- to slap a crowd of skulls around, then footstomp before they get out of range of it. Then fight the people who didn't get knocked back with my ST chain while the others file back in.

 

 

I added  Cross Punch to the mix. You become an AoE wrecking ball.