page 3 [FOCUSED FEEDBACK] Super Strength Adjustments

[Gobbledigook]

What if they changed Rage from doing zero damage during the crash and instead it did 50% reduced damage for 10 seconds. Would that be worth taking the 20% resistance and 10% defense debuff?

 

Or

 

 Spread the Rage crash out amongst more stats like health, endurance modification etc.  Reduce the 20% resistance, 10% defense to 10% and 5% with health and end mod taking a small hit also. Taxing on the whole system.

 

Focused rage sounds better than unleashed might also. Rage becomes unbridled Rage.

 

 

Edited December 18 by Gobbledigook

[arcane]

1 hour ago, Erratic1 said:

 

So much better to piecemeal work their way through sets nerfing and altering powersets one at a time, eh?

I think the devs are essentially telling us they don’t find the entire system problematic, so they’re trying to rein in the extreme end of the bell curve without tearing the whole system down. APP Char/Dominate, Radiation Therapy, DNA Siphon, Whitecap, etc. I would much rather them put a damper on the most powerful examples than nerf everything across the board, personally. 

[Gobbledigook]

11 minutes ago, arcane said:

I think the devs are essentially telling us they don’t find the entire system problematic, so they’re trying to rein in the extreme end of the bell curve without tearing the whole system down. APP Char/Dominate, Radiation Therapy, DNA Siphon, Whitecap, etc. I would much rather them put a damper on the most powerful examples than nerf everything across the board, personally. 

Fulcrum shift. Corruptors do far more with that one power than any Rage.

Edited December 18 by Gobbledigook

[Major_Decoy]

7 minutes ago, Gobbledigook said:

Fulcrum shift. Corruptors do far more with that one power than any Rage.

Fulcrum Shift doesn't take any procs.

[Gobbledigook]

7 minutes ago, Major_Decoy said:

Fulcrum Shift doesn't take any procs.

Doesn't need any, but yes wrongfully mentioned  when i read above. 

[Wravis]

If you don't like it don't play it.

[Sarrate]

Something that I haven't seen mentioned before, but depending on the enemies you're facing, Rage's defense debuff could saturate an enemies' chance to hit, thereby lessening its maximum impact:

 

Defense	0					Defense	-10					Defense	-20
	1	1.15	1.3	1.5			1	1.15	1.3	1.5			1	1.15	1.3	1.5
lvl diff	Minion	Lt	Boss	AV		lvl diff	Minion	Lt	Boss	AV		lvl diff	Minion	Lt	Boss	AV
0	50	57.5	65	75		0	60	69	78	90		0	70	80.5	91	105
1	55	63.25	71.5	82.5		1	66	75.9	85.8	99		1	77	88.55	100.1	115.5
2	60	69	78	90		2	72	82.8	93.6	108		2	84	96.6	109.2	126
3	65	74.75	84.5	97.5		3	78	89.7	101.4	117		3	91	104.65	118.3	136.5
4	70	80.5	91	105		4	84	96.6	109.2	126		4	98	112.7	127.4	147
5	75	86.25	97.5	112.5		5	90	103.5	117	135		5	105	120.75	136.5	157.5

 

I am making no comment on the proposed changes to Rage's crash, merely providing an additional data point to consider.

 

 

4 hours ago, Troo said:

Homecoming

[Jab, Punch, Haymaker] < [Boxing, Kick, Cross Punch]

 

Homecoming Open Beta

[Jab, Punch, Haymaker] ?? >/< ¿¿ [Boxing, Kick, Cross Punch]

 

Are [Boxing, Kick, Cross Punch] still better than [Jab, Punch, Haymaker]??

 

According to CoD and the numbers in the patch notes, the breakdown is as follows:

 

	Dmg	DPA	Act (Arcana)	Rech
Boxing (1)	0.76	0.575757575	1.32	2.5
Boxing (2)	0.874	0.662121212	1.32	2.5
Boxing (3)	0.988	0.748484848	1.32	2.5
Kick (1)	0.84	0.424242424	1.98	3
Kick (2)	0.966	0.487878787	1.98	3
Kick (3)	1.092	0.551515151	1.98	3
Cross Punch (1)	1.27	0.687229437	1.848	8
Cross Punch (2)	1.4605	0.790313852	1.848	8
Cross Punch (3)	1.651	0.893398268	1.848	8
Jab	0.68	0.515151515	1.32	2
Jab (UM)	0.884	0.669696969	1.32	2
Punch	1	0.688705234	1.452	4
Punch (UM)	1.3	0.895316804	1.452	4
Haymaker	1.64	0.955710955	1.716	8
Haymaker (UM)	2.132	1.242424242	1.716	8

 

That purely base damage scale, no +dmg (no enhancements, Fury, Rage, or UM) as it would scale for all attacks equally.

 

Boxing (3) > Jab (UM), but that's it

Kick is weaker than all 3 SS attacks, but would be necessary for Jab and Cross Punch's damage

Cross Punch (3) is about equal to Punch (UM), but weaker than Haymaker / Haymaker (UM), with the caveat being it can hit multiple targets.

[Eirei07]

15 hours ago, BrandX said:

 

Well, I know I've seen SR/SS Tankers/Brutes. *shrug*  

Nothing to add? Just “trust me bro I’ve seen them”? That means nothing to me.

Edited December 18 by Eirei07

[Eirei07]

16 hours ago, Steampunkette said:

"Rather than make the debuff result in 260% more damage to both Defense and Resistance users at the soft and hard cap, or 400% more damage for Defense users and 20% more damage for Resistance users, we should just get rid of the debuff that has long been considered the balancing point for this power!"

 

... that's definitely a take.

 

If the crash went away, you'd definitely see a major nerf to Rage's output more in line with Unleashed Might's overall value.

Your post runs on the assumption that the -10% Def & -20% Res is somehow “equitable”, despite it already being disputed several times in this thread. Not taking account of other factors, the different powersets (def vs hybrid vs resist set vs regen), debuffs and so on. Suffice to say that I am not convinced of the argument of equitability, when there’s a clear cut option for equitability, and it’s the one I put forth.

 

I’m not even convinced that the survivability crash is warranted or appropriate as a “balancing point”, as no one so far has sufficiently proven that Rage SS is massively overperforming using any useful metric. What does “overperforming in damage as a Tanker” even mean? How exactly is double Rage stack better than other powersets, that can *also* leverage procs almost as well? What about the fact that on Brutes, UM is actually trending to perform *better* than Rage, doesn’t that weaken the reasoning for the nerf? The ones who are claiming that it needs the nerf are the ones who have to prove it.

 

Mind that I’m only replying because your post seems to put words in my mouth, which I don’t appreciate. It's fine if you think those things, but don’t prop them up as facts that everyone agrees on.

Edited December 18 by Eirei07
fix typos

[ScarySai]

5 hours ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

I don't disagree. Just as I find the opinion that running around with a perpetual +140% damage and +40% tohit buff shouldn't have any kinda of downside irrelevant to a discussion of balance.

 

Except that's not how the game works. Damage scales are what determine how strong something is. Or are we going to look at fury and start going "Oh well fury gives you 280% damage just for existing, therefore brute is op" it's meaningless.

[Zahnee]

+140% dmg is actually awful for your overall potential damage because it eats into your damage cap. We’ve already established that UM is better on Brutes than Tankers due to Fury, but I’m sure UM might even beat out double Rage on Tankers the moment massive external damage buffs come into play (like chugging red inspirations or Fulcrum Shift). This just highlights another sacrifice of Rage.

[Zahnee]

5 hours ago, Maelwys said:

There were certainly -ToHit debuffs (and -Rech and many others) being thrown around from all the Council and Arachnos... but that was intentional to provide a "wide variety of stuff to deal with". IIRC the main complaints about the "original" Trapdoor mission being used as a yardstick was that it unfairly favoured AoE damage, it was more favourable towards smashing/lethal damage than most PVE is (since most of the tougher mobs within it had no noteworthy resistances... the Wolf Bosses were the "worst" AFAIK) and the Spawn compositions were rather inconsistent.

The thread I linked to specifically states "All attacks had a 95% chance to hit" (if you check the builds all the sets are sitting at or above that threshold + in practice many of them upon encountering significant levels of ToHit debuffery could counter at least temporarily via hitting Build Up). In practice, outside of Four Star content I always aim for "95% Hit Rate whenever the enemy has no other buffs/debuffs in play" whenever I'm building to cap a character's accuracy vs a specific mob level. That's the approach I took when rejigging all my active characters for fighting against the new Lv55s (+4)... which Rage ABSOLUTELY gives you an easier job of hitting than Unleashed Might does.

((Also it's not just Ston's Trapdoor tests that show this out - any form of large mob clearing activity tends to favour builds with multiple Procbombed AoEs that are propped up by crazy levels of global accuracy and global recharge and/or FF-procs. The only reason SS doesn't feature very much in the AE farming thread is that whenever you don't particularly care about balanced survivability; after a certain point it becomes more efficient to combine all your insps into reds and cap your own damage without having to put up with a Rage Crash... but for a good while they were recommending a Rad/SS Tanker!))
 

I understand that all attacks in the test had a 95% hit chance but a benefit of Rage is its resistance to ToHit debuffs. The moment cascading ToHit debuffs occur, what was the hit chance of the other powersets vs Super Strength? This was an inherent flaw in the test because the goal isn’t to test ToHit debuff resistance it’s to test damage and clear speed. Of course a set that’s more resistant to ToHit debuffs wins in that scenario, but this doesn’t give us an accurate portrayal of its damage in isolation. The extremely low uptime of Build Up to combat -ToHit cannot compare to Rage either. So a better conclusion might be that Rage’s resistance to ToHit debuffs is too strong, not its damage boost.

[Spaghetti Betty]

Hello! I haven't done any testing with the new UM, and it kind of seems from the silence that there isn't any give on the massive -20% RES crash that's being proposed. However, I'd like to shout into the void and ask, if the supposed issues are parity between pure DEF and pure RES armors when it comes to the crash, and the possibility of procs being leveraged to circumvent the -DMG, why not pivot from the survivability hit and add a huge -tohit penalty instead? I'm not big on numbers, but say something like -35%. Wouldn't it be parity enough if it's next to impossible to land meaningful damage for 10 seconds?

[flakoff]

I'm thinking with teams that have a kin , most people hit the damage cap anyway. So why does rage on live make a difference to anyone?

Solo matters to no one, teamwise everyone benefits from all buffs from support toons.

While there are blasters that can solo +4 itfs what does it matter?

We all just want to feel like a super hero playing a game.

I hear the argument about power creep, but come on most people don't care.

[flakoff]

On 12/16/2025 at 4:10 PM, Bill Z Bubba said:

Sure seems like there's a ton of fire and brimstone for a change that should have occurred twenty years ago that amounts to very little pain for everyone and makes SS usable on defense based builds.

Ss is already usable on defense builds. My sr tank is at 70% Def to all three positions.

But with the new rage if a hit gets through, which is likely, I don't have the highest resistance.

So that makes me worse off.

[Psi-bolt]

3 hours ago, Spaghetti Betty said:

Hello! I haven't done any testing with the new UM, and it kind of seems from the silence that there isn't any give on the massive -20% RES crash that's being proposed. However, I'd like to shout into the void and ask, if the supposed issues are parity between pure DEF and pure RES armors when it comes to the crash, and the possibility of procs being leveraged to circumvent the -DMG, why not pivot from the survivability hit and add a huge -tohit penalty instead? I'm not big on numbers, but say something like -35%. Wouldn't it be parity enough if it's next to impossible to land meaningful damage for 10 seconds?

That’s a really interesting idea.  The number on the debuff would have to be big like the -damage number so you can’t just buff through it.  But I think that would be a better crash.

[Maelwys]

4 hours ago, Zahnee said:

I understand that all attacks in the test had a 95% hit chance but a benefit of Rage is its resistance to ToHit debuffs.

  
Rage doesn't provide any ToHit Debuff Resistance.
It simply gives +20% ToHit per stack: +20% ToHit (self only) for 120s

You may be thinking of another power like Focussed Accuracy with its +86.5% Resistance (ToHit) (all affected targets).
 

4 hours ago, Zahnee said:

The moment cascading ToHit debuffs occur, what was the hit chance of the other powersets vs Super Strength? 

It'll have differed from set to set and from debuff to debuff.

If you bother to look at the builds; you'll note their layouts are very similar and they all run Kismet and Tactics plus a Decimation in Gloom and a Gaussian in Build Up/Rage.

However WITHOUT Build Up or Rage or the Decimation procs active, a standard AoE like Dark Obliteration sits at around 111% ToHit before clamping vs the intended +4s.

The upshot is they can all eat at least one stack of -7.5% ToHit from a +4 Council mob (e.g. Gloom) and still be capable of reaching 95% hit Rate.
Rage allows the SS build another ~3 hits. The difference isn't overly noteworthy if you're encountering cascading effects.
Heck, the Claws build was the same PLUS a Gaussian in Follow Up and they came in consistently nearly half a minute slower.

 

4 hours ago, Zahnee said:

This was an inherent flaw in the test because the goal isn’t to test ToHit debuff resistance it’s to test damage and clear speed. Of course a set that’s more resistant to ToHit debuffs wins in that scenario, but this doesn’t give us an accurate portrayal of its damage in isolation. The extremely low uptime of Build Up to combat -ToHit cannot compare to Rage either. So a better conclusion might be that Rage’s resistance to ToHit debuffs is too strong, not its damage boost.

 

Alternatively; you could take the test for what it was intended to be: a depiction of how you can expect various builds to perform against large groups of enemies that include Elite Boss *and a wide variety of debuffs*. 

Again, Rage does not grant the user resistance to ToHit debuffs. I'm not sure where the heck you're getting that from. The raw +ToHit buff it grants is however absolutely a large part of the benefit of Rage. I've pointed out multiple times that it allows easier procbombing since you don't have to worry about accuracy aspect slotting. It only ever stops being relevant when fighting even-level foes or lower; or when you're getting high levels of allied buffage.

We can take enemy debuffs completely out of the equation (see the AE farming thread mentioned above) and the results are the same - Rage's +ToHit and +Damage allows those same multiple Procbombed AoEs to hit well above their weight class. Especially on a Brute (since Fury, as mentioned earlier, counters the loss of slotted damage aspect).



An appropriate conclusion is therefore not exactly difficult to draw.

Rage is fine if you're leaning into powers and effects within the Superstrength powerset.
Rage is not fine if you're leaning into powers and effects outside of the Superstrength powerset.

The latter should be obvious as well as evident - the performance of the attacks within the Superstrength powerset are artificially balanced around Rage. That's why the devs haven't just blanket buffed them (it took the new Unleashed Might mechanic which is mutually exclusive with Rage to tweak their base damage and effects). However the same is not true for attacks outside of the Superstrength powerset - THOSE are available to everyone, not just SS users, so their performance cannot be balanced around Rage. Whenever you add Rage's buff to them their performance becomes potentially unbalanced... especially if you throw other potentially unbalancing things at them simultaneously such as multiple Damage Procs and Capped Fury.

The limiting factor is that if you're taking SS there are only a certain number of "good" AoEs outside of it that can be loaded up with procs and bumped higher with Fury. So it's very build dependent. But if you're, say, a SS/FA Brute with the Mu or Soul Patron? Your achievable damage ceiling will absolutely be getting drastically elevated via Rage.
 

Edited December 18 by Maelwys

[Shin Magmus]

   This thread is going to get GoogleMoogled like fucking crazy guys. 

[Maelwys]

3 hours ago, Spaghetti Betty said:

why not pivot from the survivability hit and add a huge -tohit penalty instead? I'm not big on numbers, but say something like -35%. Wouldn't it be parity enough if it's next to impossible to land meaningful damage for 10 seconds?

It would indeed.

It's been suggested before (including in my own posts!) and yes, -ToHit would limit proc damage during the Rage crash.

It'd also limit "Punchvoke" taunting though for any powers that require a hit check (like most attacks and damage auras) and a few mitigation abilities (Dark Regeneration, for example. .. and Knockdowns/Mez/etc). There's existing tech out there though that can limit effects to specific enhancement inheritance; so it should be possible (if perhaps tricky) to restrict a -ToHit debuff crash to only powers that take damage aspect slotting.


 

[Spaghetti Betty]

4 minutes ago, Maelwys said:

It'd also limit "Punchvoke" taunting though for any powers that require a hit check (like most attacks and damage auras) and a few mitigation abilities (Dark Regeneration, for example. .. and Knockdowns/Mez/etc). There's existing tech out there though that can limit effects to specific enhancement inheritance; so it should be possible (if perhaps tricky) to restrict a -ToHit debuff crash to only powers that take damage aspect slotting.

Exactly! There's still enough of a hit to potential survivability that would be """equitable""" across just about any combo you could think of running SS, and it also solves the """"issue"""" of busting through the damage penalty as well! And it doesn't require touching armor stats at all!

[BrandX]

6 hours ago, Eirei07 said:

Nothing to add? Just “trust me bro I’ve seen them”? That means nothing to me.

 

Well let's go back to March 2020 ( 

 

Shields (Defense based set)/Super Strength number 11 on popularity, Ice Armor/SS at 83 and with Super Reflexes/SS at number 92 for Tankers.

Shield at 17, Energy Aura at 57, SR at 86 and Ice Armor at 173

 

And that was in 2020.  More have been made since.

[Eirei07]

1 hour ago, BrandX said:

 

Well let's go back to March 2020 ( 

 

Shields (Defense based set)/Super Strength number 11 on popularity, Ice Armor/SS at 83 and with Super Reflexes/SS at number 92 for Tankers.

Shield at 17, Energy Aura at 57, SR at 86 and Ice Armor at 173

 

And that was in 2020.  More have been made since.

 

Oh geez, statistics! This is interesting.

 

So first off, I am completely wrong that there ARE people who roll SS with defense based armor set. That much is clear.

 

However, we do have to take into account the fact that this covers *all* players, so we can expect to see pretty much everything here. From my quick skim, there are 200+ power combination listed on Brute and Tanker, so I'm not surprised that the number of defense set/SS is nonzero. You can also see other really ill-advised power combinations, like Empathy topping the charts for Defender primary, so I'm inclined to not take these numbers other than just a popularity poll, majorly consist of super casuals who don't care about powerset balance.

 

While we're on this topic, what I want to point out, is the fact that no one here has yet expressed interest in using Rage SS as a result of this change. It's pretty much "I might try out SS because of UM" & "never liked dealing with the crash, so I'm swapping over to UM". And the people who aren't posting most likely aren't going to care either way. You don't see any of those 100+ SS/SD ppl saying how thankful they are that rage crash is eased for them on here.

 

So with what small sample size we have here in this thread, I argue that the Rage change is going to really only affect the people who are already using Rage. The people who are not currently using it, are probably never going to use it anyway. Especially not with UM being trotted out as the shiny new alternative.

Edited December 18 by Eirei07

[BrandX]

29 minutes ago, Eirei07 said:

 

Oh geez, statistics! This is interesting.

 

So first off, I am completely wrong that there ARE people who roll SS with defense based armor set. That much is clear.

 

However, we do have to take into account the fact that this covers *all* players, so we can expect to see pretty much everything here. From my quick skim, there are 200+ power combination listed on Brute and Tanker, so I'm not surprised that the number of defense set/SS is nonzero. You can also see other really ill-advised power combinations, like Empathy topping the charts for Defender primary, so I'm inclined to not take these numbers other than just a popularity poll, majorly consist of super casuals who don't care about powerset balance.

 

While we're on this topic, what I want to point out, is the fact that no one here has yet expressed interest in using Rage SS as a result of this change. It's pretty much "I might try out SS because of UM" & "never liked dealing with the crash, so I'm swapping over to UM". And the people who aren't posting most likely aren't going to care either way. You don't see any of those 100+ SS/SD ppl saying how thankful they are that rage crash is eased for them on here.

 

So with what small sample size we have here in this thread, I argue that the change is going to really only affect the people who are already using Rage. The people who are not currently using it, are probably never going to use it anyway. Especially not with UM being trotted out as the shiny new alternative.

 

They're old stats.  I can say on my Super Strength, I just never cared for Hurl being a lackluster ST DPS attack.  I want to hurl that chunk of concrete often!  Rage Crash is just living with the set, no different than any other set for me (for me the meh set, but awesome concept, is TW).  

 

However, since the new power is likely to allow porting of SS to Scrappers, that's where I will want to play it, as I wanted a Scrapper with SS animations!  I know I can concept any attack set into super strength, but I want that hand clap and such 🙂

[Psi-bolt]

2 hours ago, Shin Magmus said:

   This thread is going to get GoogleMoogled like fucking crazy guys. 

It’s a Christmas miracle (probably just a break) it’s gone on this long.   We’re way beyond discussing the specific changes on beta.

[Zahnee]

1 hour ago, Maelwys said:

  
Rage doesn't provide any ToHit Debuff Resistance.
It simply gives +20% ToHit per stack: +20% ToHit (self only) for 120s

You may be thinking of another power like Focussed Accuracy with its +86.5% Resistance (ToHit) (all affected targets).
 

It'll have differed from set to set and from debuff to debuff.

If you bother to look at the builds; you'll note their layouts are very similar and they all run Kismet and Tactics plus a Decimation in Gloom and a Gaussian in Build Up/Rage.

However WITHOUT Build Up or Rage or the Decimation procs active, a standard AoE like Dark Obliteration sits at around 111% ToHit before clamping vs the intended +4s.

The upshot is they can all eat at least one stack of -7.5% ToHit from a +4 Council mob (e.g. Gloom) and still be capable of reaching 95% hit Rate.
Rage allows the SS build another ~3 hits. The difference isn't overly noteworthy if you're encountering cascading effects.
Heck, the Claws build was the same PLUS a Gaussian in Follow Up and they came in consistently nearly half a minute slower.

 

 

Alternatively; you could take the test for what it was intended to be: a depiction of how you can expect various builds to perform against large groups of enemies that include Elite Boss *and a wide variety of debuffs*. 

Again, Rage does not grant the user resistance to ToHit debuffs. I'm not sure where the heck you're getting that from. The raw +ToHit buff it grants is however absolutely a large part of the benefit of Rage. I've pointed out multiple times that it allows easier procbombing since you don't have to worry about accuracy aspect slotting. It only ever stops being relevant when fighting even-level foes or lower; or when you're getting high levels of allied buffage.

We can take enemy debuffs completely out of the equation (see the AE farming thread mentioned above) and the results are the same - Rage's +ToHit and +Damage allows those same multiple Procbombed AoEs to hit well above their weight class. Especially on a Brute (since Fury, as mentioned earlier, counters the loss of slotted damage aspect).



An appropriate conclusion is therefore not exactly difficult to draw.

Rage is fine if you're leaning into powers and effects within the Superstrength powerset.
Rage is not fine if you're leaning into powers and effects outside of the Superstrength powerset.

The latter should be obvious as well as evident - the performance of the attacks within the Superstrength powerset are artificially balanced around Rage. That's why the devs haven't just blanket buffed them (it took the new Unleashed Might mechanic which is mutually exclusive with Rage to tweak their base damage and effects). However the same is not true for attacks outside of the Superstrength powerset - THOSE are available to everyone, not just SS users, so their performance cannot be balanced around Rage. Whenever you add Rage's buff to them their performance becomes potentially unbalanced... especially if you throw other potentially unbalancing things at them simultaneously such as multiple Damage Procs and Capped Fury.

The limiting factor is that if you're taking SS there are only a certain number of "good" AoEs outside of it that can be loaded up with procs and bumped higher with Fury. So it's very build dependent. But if you're, say, a SS/FA Brute with the Mu or Soul Patron? Your achievable damage ceiling will absolutely be getting drastically elevated via Rage.
 

I’m working from a phone here so this entire thread is insanely difficult to reply to. 
 

I’ll start out by clearing up some confusion about what I meant by -tohit resistance. I didn’t mean that Rage gives tohit debuff resistance but that it’s more resistant to them. Which I think we can agree there, since it takes more -tohit to bring Rage below the 95% hit chance threshold. The moment a powerset skews the data it invalidates it. You cannot conclude that Rage gives too much +damage when the other powersets could not hit the enemies as often. 

 

Your assessment of SS vs Claws is misleading. Claws was only 24s slower on Brute and 16s slower on Tanker for an average of 20s, which isn’t that big of a gap. How do you explain Tanker Savage and Fiery Melee beating Super Strength on the clear speed test when they don’t have Rage?
 

Have you tested this out on beta? Do you have any substantial findings to bring to the table about SS performance? What does your proc bomb Rage build look like?
 

This is all speculation until someone decides to run tests in the current build. Ston’s tests were done before Tanker radius increases so this might be even more significant to actually test.