page 3 [FOCUSED FEEDBACK] Super Reflexes Adjustments

[drbuzzard]

1 hour ago, FupDup said:

Toggle MB could’ve been saved in a few different ways like a small bit of regen, absorb, or max HP so the comparison would be less one-sided with a clearly blatant winner. And Sents could’ve gotten a little extra stuff added to Enduring to offset the nerf they’d feel (since Enduring is Sent exclusive). 

 

It’s unfortunate that many beta cycles end up as “You need to take everything exactly as proposed or we scrap it all” (see also: T9 changes scrapped instead of tweaked around 60s durations).  

 

The 'a small bit of regen, absorb or max HP' which people bring up is always a bigger deal than is implied in that sentence. It all requires testing and coding. Do you imagine it is a magic wand being waved or something? 

 

A lot of work is happening behind the scenes before something hits Open Beta by unpaid volunteers. There are reasons and considerations behind those choices. Do I know what they are? No. Do I automatically assume they are wrong? Also no. 

 

You can dislike those choices, and ask for them not to be implemented. You can also make suggestions. However expecting the process to be any different than how it has worked is quite unrealistic. Keep in mind every time people freak out and trash a change so it gets pulled back, all that work that went in just got flushed. Everyone who put time into that had their effort flushed. 

 

You know that T9 change which everyone took a dump on? I wouldn't hold my breath on it being addressed again any time soon since the people who did it didn't like being crapped on. Bravo. 

 

[PyroBeetle]

9 hours ago, ForeverLaxx said:

In my opinion, the only time a power should be completely redesigned in functionality is if you can't make the set work the way it needs to otherwise. These branching power half-measures shouldn't ever have been a thing.

I think I have explained why it was done for practiced and master brawler, as well as the ongoing rage and unleashed might mutually exclusive powers, but I will try to make it simpler.

 

There are valid and longstanding reasons for practiced brawler to be how it is as a click power, revolving around stacking the mez protection, just as there is for shield defense to stack the defense debuff resistance. As a Sentinel I never participated in PvP so didnt care and master brawler was an automatic pick across all of my Sentinel SR toons. However there is a huge segment of the player base, let's say 95 percent plus, who want the ease of MB as it exists on Sentinels, but promulgating it as it is would again make PB just cease to exist off of Indomitable or wherever the 4 people who still PvP in this game play.

 

In order to make the power a choice, not an automatic, something had to be done. By making MB a straight toggle and PB getting the heal, you are now introducing a balanced choice to playstyle, and that can never be a bad thing.

 

Thank you to the dev team for making this considered choice.

[Shin Magmus]

   Too bad only one of the choices is good, while the other is outclassed but functions in the absolute barest and least useful way possible, making no contributions to your build or slotting options.  It might also actually be broken and still suppressing while mezzed.

[Troo]

10 hours ago, Shin Magmus said:

Too bad only one of the choices is good,

 

Your opinion.

 

10 hours ago, Shin Magmus said:

while the other is outclassed but functions in the absolute barest and least useful way possible, making no contributions to your build or slotting options. 

 

But that's what people want. As far as slotting, how is it different from Quickness which can't mule anything? (other than one being an auto and the other being a toggle)

[Shin Magmus]

   Well, you might not know this but the benefits that Quickness and its clones provide are special, not in every armorset, and genuinely very useful: so the fact that all you can do with it is boost your Run (or Fly if cool) Speed a bit isn't a huge deal because the power itself is valuable.  Contrast this with basic mez protection which every armorset should have as a bare minimum to function, and where every other mez protection toggle in the game literally offers more than Master Brawler: every single one even Wet Ice.  The devs are proposing creating a new power that is the single worst version of a power of its type in the game, and I think it could stand to be better. 

[Captain Powerhouse]

Update:

 

We have been following the feedback and have decided to roll back all SR changes in a future build.

 

Non sentinel SR players have higher survivability and did not really need more in that department. The choice to give them the toggle would have turned Practiced Brawler into a dead pick. To counter this, we opted to give it still the conditional absorb bonus to at least make that power have some reason to be a viable choice over the toggle version. Given how this is not really adding enough benefit and causing so much stir, the change is simply going to be rolled back. It is not considered worth risking giving SR even more survivability given the reaction is this controversial. 

 

In the one other hand, Sentinel payers are finding them too disruptive. Their version of SR is not as strong as other versions, due to a combination of lower HP modifiers and power selections, but due to the modifier changes in test we will likely still be keeping a close eye to see if anything might need further tweaking.

[FupDup]

I know what’s done is done, but I would argue that if PB had no absorb, the vanilla MB toggle would not have been a pure upgrade over it. PB would still be stackable for higher protection, would be unsappable, and would drain less endurance (which matters on melees because they don’t have a recovery power like Sents do via Enduring).

It was just the added sustain and heal slotting on PB that skewed the comparison, which could have been offset in a few different ways proposed earlier in this thread (ie a bit of regen or w/e on MB and some kind of buff to Enduring to compensate Sentinels for the loss). 

[FupDup]

I just got another compromise idea. Melee ATs get the toggle but call it Expert Brawler, so it doesn’t interfere with Sentinel’s Master Brawler. MB stays as-is on live.
 

PB also stays as-is on live so that both choices are relatively competitive without risking power creepage. Everybody wins. 

Edited Thursday at 01:28 PM by FupDup

[GM_GooglyMoogly]

On 12/10/2025 at 1:50 PM, ForeverLaxx said:

This is a focused feedback thread about a change to a powerset. It's not designed for a back-and-forth

 

Agreed.  So I trimmed a bunch of posts.  Since the changes are being reverted, I probably should have closed the thread but I thought it was valuable for players to continue discussing the proposed adjustments.  Please share your thoughts without engaging in a debate with fellow posters.  You can, of course, start another thread to engage in debate if you wish.

[Shin Magmus]

   What even is there left to discuss?  There's no changes now.  Somehow, the suggestion to not add what would be universally one of the weakest powers in the game to the set was enough to shelve the changes.  I'll echo what half these topics say now: "at least I don't have to Respec."

[Bill Z Bubba]

On the plus side, the whole conversation did make me revisit the BZB builds and I found a few corrections available that make all three even tougher.

 

And the brute changes coming in? Well they'll make a change in my opinion of BZB brute.

 

Instead of doing less damage than BZB scrapper while having less mitigation than BZB tank, he'll be viewed as having more mitigation than BZB scrapper and more damage than BZB tank.

Edited Friday at 11:50 PM by Bill Z Bubba

[Gobbledygook]

3 hours ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

On the plus side, the whole conversation did make me revisit the BZB builds and I found a few corrections available that make all three even tougher.

 

And the brute changes coming in? Well they'll make a change in my opinion of BZB brute.

 

Instead of doing less damage than BZB scrapper while having less mitigation than BZB tank, he'll be viewed as having more mitigation than BZB scrapper and more damage than BZB tank.

 

You know, I referenced to @Hyperstrike as The Patron Saint of Invulnerability.

 

I think I'll call you The Patron Saint of Super Reflexes.

 

Can a demon be a Saint?

[Major_Decoy]

1 minute ago, Gobbledygook said:

 

You know, I referenced to @Hyperstrike as The Patron Saint of Invulnerability.

 

I think I'll call you The Patron Saint of Super Reflexes.

 

Can a demon be a Saint?

So soon we have forgotten Arcanaville?

[Gobbledygook]

5 minutes ago, Major_Decoy said:

So soon we have forgotten Arcanaville?

I didn't know though were still around.

[Bill Z Bubba]

19 minutes ago, Major_Decoy said:

So soon we have forgotten Arcanaville?

 

Arcanaville is the Patron Saint of All Things Math.

 

I'm ok with being the Patron Saint of Claws and SR, but I'll happily bow my head to being so only because of her.

[Curveball]

OK, so for all practical purposes it's too late to chime in here I guess, since the devs have decided to pull the SR changes completely, but I still feel the need to put in a word as to why I, at least, would have cheerfully and wholeheartedly taken the Master Brawler toggle on Tanker, Brute, and Scrapper, as is, without so much as blinking. So these are the reasons why I, an uncultured buffoon, would happily take a Master Brawler toggle power that does nothing but give status resistance:

 

1. Fire and Forget.

This one is obvious, and mostly dismissed by everyone who's against it, but I find having to keep track of a click power's expiration a pain in the neck, especially if there are other things going on. Most of the time in combat I realize practiced brawler has expired because some rando mob knocks my character down or mezzes him or does some other thing the power is supposed to stop.

 

Sure, you can make it auto. Most of the time you can make it auto by slotting a single SO and building up your global recharge and then setting it on auto. But also, if you're really trying to build up your global recharge, that auto happens a lot faster than it needs to and when it goes off it interrupts pretty much anything you're doing, OR the thing you're doing prevents it from firing off and you don't notice and then the next thing you know you get knocked down or mezzed.

 

So: Master Brawler lets you turn it on and keep it on (though there was a post stating that MB was being detoggled when nothing else was. If that was intended behavior rather than something that needed to be ironed out, that would make it a lot less useful in my eyes).

 

2. Save Ctrl+L click for something else.

If you have Practiced Brawler set on auto, you don't have Hasten on auto. I'd rather have Hasten on auto.

 

3. Save the Slots.

With Practiced Brawler now getting the HP buffer, there will be temptations to add slots to it to add heals or reduce recharge even more so it can be fired off faster than necessary. But the Master Brawler toggle would just need a single end reducer, and all those extra slots can be put in some other power. My second favorite thing about Quickness is I don't have to slot it. I just add a single +run or +fly and I'm done, and those extra slots can go into some other power. Slots get precious at the end of the game. A power that does the thing it does without you having to fuss with it, and allowing you to save those potential slots for something else you'd rather build out? Yes please.

 

I know that's not a particularly long list, but it's sufficiently a QoL improvement (not an EFFICIENCY improvement or a POWER improvement, just MORE CONVENIENT) that I'd gladly take the tradeoff. I'm disappointed it won't make it to the live servers.

 

Oh well. Life goes on...

[Bill Z Bubba]

4 hours ago, Curveball said:

2. Save Ctrl+L click for something else.

If you have Practiced Brawler set on auto, you don't have Hasten on auto. I'd rather have Hasten on auto.

 

Hasten has 2 min duration. PB has two min duration. Set hasten to autofire and set PB to keybind v and fire off after hasten autofires.

/step 2 profit.

[Unknown Magi]

Was "Hi, could we please have that neat sentinel SR cookie on the other AT versions also?" really that hard?  The initial post makes callouts to complexity and reading comprehension as the reason for the originally proposed implementation, but I kinda feel that, ironically,  a reading comprehension issue led to a lot of unnecessary complexity in the form of that proposal.  All anyone asked for was "could we please have that one thing proliferated?" which was a very simple ask, and instead we got....all of this.  So, I'm just going to ask...instead of fixing what isn't broken, or unnecessarily changing or overcomplicating things, or wide sweeping changes requiring respecs...

Could we please just have Sentinel MB ported to everyone else, and leave well enough alone for the rest?