Prevent artificial inflation, please.

[Some Random User]

Background for readers who may not be aware:

Because of the way Enhancement Converters can be used to speculate using the conversion system the players who work to make money at Wentworth's are able to hoard Enhancements that would otherwise be lowering the price on the auction house. This is likely to continue to happen, and as more Influence enters the economy (from defeating bad guys) this will drive inflation. One way the moderators were able to forestall a rapid runaway market was to seed the auction house with cheap common and uncommon salvage before opening to the public. (This is why there are ten million or so of every common salvage available for $1 000 each.)

 

What happened earlier this month:

As you are no doubt aware, there is consistent demand for the special Luck of the Gambler Enhancement that reduces global recharge. The price has been consistently dropping (to about $7-8 million), which was making them affordable for "regular" players. Then someone purchased all of them from the auction house and relisted them all for $12 000 000. This kept the market from making the Enhancements available to non-speculators.

 

Problems in dealing with this:

There are several things the moderators could do to address the issue. My personal thought is that there are fundamental flaws in how the Influence and Invention systems currently operate, and a larger conversation about how the in-game economy should work is merited. Barring that, just deciding to seed the "usual suspects" of Enhancements at some fixed market rate isn't going to do enough. Just like in real life some humans actually enjoy amassing wealth. I liked playing around on the auction house, then I found out that Enhancement Converters were being used to speculate. In a way this is a good thing, you know, since we don't have enough active accounts on 24/7 to fill the large demand perfectly calculated builds require.

 

In another way this leads to levels of wealth that the system was not designed to accommodate. This game has an Influence cap and experience with other games says that seeding high end useful items will just turn those items into a different way to store any Influence you earned in excess of the cap. The hoarding will get worse as the items now have a guaranteed value they can store long-term in abundance. (For an example, see what happened on Team Fortress 2 with buds. Though in that case an economist actually suggested adding them so that exact thing could happen.) Trying to seed the auction house with Recipes instead seems like a practical idea, but that just shifts where the distortions happen (onto Rare Salvage), although this sort of stopgap is practical, and helps to influence players from speculation on those Enhancements, other recipes will be affected because they happen to share the same Rare ingredient.

 

To summarize:

Allow players that aren't trying to speculate on the auction house to buy what they're trying to buy. That means altering the @#$%^&*~! economy.

Edited August 1, 2019 by Some Random User
had to change the title because nobody was reading the wall of text

[Voldine]

11 minutes ago, Some Random User said:

Background for readers who may not be aware:

Because of the way Enhancement Converters can be used to speculate using the conversion system the players who work to make money at Wentworth's are able to hoard Enhancements that would otherwise be lowering the price on the auction house. This is likely to continue to happen, and as more Influence enters the economy (from defeating bad guys) this will drive inflation. One way the moderators were able to forestall a rapid runaway market was to seed the auction house with cheap common and uncommon salvage before opening to the public. (This is why there are ten million or so of every common salvage available for $1 000 each.)

 

What happened earlier this month:

As you are no doubt aware, there is consistent demand for the special Luck of the Gambler Enhancement that reduces global recharge. The price has been consistently dropping (to about $7-8 million), which was making them affordable for "regular" players. Then someone purchased all of them from the auction house and relisted them all for $12 000 000. This kept the market from making the Enhancements available to non-speculators.

 

Problems in dealing with this:

There are several things the moderators could do to address the issue. My personal thought is that there are fundamental flaws in how the Influence and Invention systems currently operate, and a larger conversation about how the in-game economy should work is merited. Barring that, just deciding to seed the "usual suspects" of Enhancements at some fixed market rate isn't going to do enough. Just like in real life some humans actually enjoy amassing wealth. I liked playing around on the auction house, then I found out that Enhancement Converters were being used to speculate. In a way this is a good thing, you know, since we don't have enough active accounts on 24/7 to fill the large demand perfectly calculated builds require.

 

In another way this leads to levels of wealth that the system was not designed to accommodate. This game has an Influence cap and experience with other games says that seeding high end useful items will just turn those items into a different way to store any Influence you earned in excess of the cap. The hoarding will get worse as the items now have a guaranteed value they can store long-term in abundance. (For an example, see what happened on Team Fortress 2 with buds. Though in that case an economist actually suggested adding them so that exact thing could happen.) Trying to seed the auction house with Recipes instead seems like a practical idea, but that just shifts where the distortions happen (onto Rare Salvage), although this sort of stopgap is practical, and helps to influence players from speculation on those Enhancements, other recipes will be affected because they happen to share the same Rare ingredient.

 

To summarize:

Allow players that aren't trying to speculate on the auction house to buy what they're trying to buy. That means altering the @#$%^&*~! economy.

There's really only one surefire way for inflation to be eliminated, and that's to set a maximum price cap for selling things that is, at most, 110% of the seed price for said item.

 

This allows for both consistent pricing and for market players to at least profit a little for being vultures.

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

Frankly havnt seen that on everlasting 5-7 mil seems to be the range the lotg stays in. since you can buy the recipe for 50 merits, and 50 merits is equiv to around 12 mil, if thats waht the greedier types want for the recipe on the ah they are not really being out of line, but at that price Id just burn merits on them myself rather then give the inf to others. This is why most sell things for around 25% less then their max value. Take E Cons themselves. I tend to sale mine at 88k, while the top value for them is around a 110 k each. Most want the inf fast when they list, they dont post and say well Ill check tomorrow and hope some fool paid top dollar for my shiite.

 

E Cons are not being speculated with, they are basically along with merits the market stabalizer. When things have a solid merit price at the merit vendor and one of those is commonly being used to make inf, it helps create a standard value.

 

Combined with the better drop rates now where we can expect a purple drop just about every hour or so of playing, and catalysts which have a nice 2-3 mil value drop usually several during a play session as a 50 inf is just easier to amass then ever. Im no hard core and yet have had zero issue fully decking out my capped characters.

 

I do however agree we need mor in game inf sinks and feel the best way would be to add more temp powers to P2W. There are a great many through out the various missions blue,red, and gold. While some are regettable usually at a reduce duration via flashback like the wedding ring, Id think also having the original 2 hour version on P2W for like 5 mil, or sale it at a base 10 min for a mil with each additional 10 min for another mil up to a max of two hours etc would be great ways to keep those focusing on one or only a few capped toons from being miles ahead on inf of those of us alting a lot, and thus spending more time at the lower lvls where inf just doesnt come as fast.

 

Alternatively they could just standardize the inf rewards from mobs rather then let them increase with lvl, if for example if was universally awarded at the amount currently 50s give, then people playing toons they want to play wouldnt be punished just because they dont enjoy playing finished toons all that much. A great many retire a toon from major activity as soon as they hit 50, alot of players on live and now just dont care about the incarnate stuff and basically ignore it.

 

Thats the divide that needs to be avoided, the play only capped toon players who are amassing tons of inf each play session, and those who enjoy alting and lvling basically either having to make do with poor man builds or play in a way they dont really enjoy by running a character they see as done and mostly there for things like helping out their sg with a high end tf or raid. Hell on Everlasting most 50s seem to just be on for RP purposes.

 

So while I do understand your concern over all I think the aspect your worried about, enhancements like LOTG are abit unfounded as worse case you can run a penny yin and moonfire, both easy fast mid lvl tfs and have enough merits to get an lotg, If people are jacking up their price so much as to make it basically equal to the merit value, just use the merits and play. I mean an hour and a half a day on those 2 tfs will see you having all the lotgs you need in 5 days for a given build.

 

Same thing happened on live after merits got added. at first people used the merits to make them to sale for like a 120 mil a pop, but within a few weeks of merits being added the avg for an lotg special was down to around 60 mil and eventually dropped to like 20 mil a pop on virtue that I can recall.

[justicebeliever]

Because the market is seeded (and could be reseeded), runaway inflation is extremely unlikely.  Someone just bought up all the LotG enhancements and is pricing them out of reach...Great, because with a seeded market, I can, as a speculator, just make some new ones...Will they price higher than normal?  Yes...Will they be priced lower than the guy who just bought them all up?  Yes...I win, because I can sell stuff at a briefly inflated price that is less than the guy trying to corner the market...

 

So what's that guy going to do, when all the sudden he sees LotG selling at $10-11M instead of $12M?  He's going to have to pull sales back from the market (and lose the listing price, keeping inflation down), and relist them for $8-9M, meanwhile another speculator sees this oppty as well, and slowly the price moves back to normal.  It might mean having to wait a week before prices return to normal, but they seem to have done so repeatedly...

 

Has long as Inf Sinks exist (market listings, seeded salvage) and people still keep earning influence, the market should be OK...It's possible we seem some normal inflation, but that's OK, that's the price of having an open marketplace.

 

Regardless, this is a problem that the Dev's can correct if it becomes obvious that it's happening, by seeding additional salvage at the uncommon or rare level without having to actual code in a fix that would have longer term repercussions

[Some Random User]

What happened to L.o.t.G. isn't the specific thing this is about. I'm complaining more generally about the economy not being managed. There is a reason to make every toon have everything they could, and that leads to hoarding. Hoarding requires exploitative practices. Ergo I expect inflation to continue.

[justicebeliever]

Just now, Some Random User said:

What happened to L.o.t.G. isn't the specific thing this is about. I'm complaining more generally about the economy not being managed. There is a reason to make every toon have everything they could, and that leads to hoarding. Hoarding requires exploitative practices. Ergo I expect inflation to continue.

Assuming you were replying to me, I was just using LotG as an example, same as you...same rules apply...Small inflation may continue (until markets get reseeded) but not runaway inflation.  Additionally, due to the prevalence of merit and thus enhancement converters, it's much cheaper to craft your own LotG then buy one on the open market, which also works to counteract inflation...

[GM Capocollo]

There are already two systems in place that are keeping inflation in check:

 

• The fungibility of raw materials and finished goods: Enhancement converters mean that if there's suddenly a run on one specific popular IO, sellers will be encouraged to use enhancement converters to turn less-valuable enhancements into the in-demand one, and eventually this'll bring the price back down towards its long-term equilibrium again.  (This also keeps unpopular enhancements from becoming worthless in comparison, since even if they're very niche or of questionable utility, they can still be used as fodder to make something more valuable.)  It's also not possible for one person to corner a specific enhancement salvage necessary to create an in-demand IO because of the seeding system.
• The merit vendor: Everything available on the auction house has a soft price cap set at the virtual value of the merits required to buy it from the merit vendor.  If it'd be cheaper to buy the enhancement directly from the merit vendor rather than turn those merits into inf and buy it from the auction house, people will avail themselves of the former instead of buying from other players.

Edited July 31, 2019 by GM Capocollo

[Burnt Toast]

Absolutely not. There is no need for any further "help" in the market system. No I am not a marketeer, but I also don't think we should make any changes that will affect those who do play the market. Here's a little bit of info you may not know... Enhancements/Recipes will only go for as much as people are willing to pay. The problem is you get people who are impateint... and who have more influence than you... who don't care if it is 7 or 12 million. Will all recipes get seeded or just the ones you want to buy? If you seed them all then that Impeded Swiftness that goes for 111 right now may be upped to 11,111 - is that fair to someone who wanted that recipe that they now have to pay 100 times more? Who determines what is a fair price? I think 15 million is fair for a LOTG + Rech... While SOME recipes are higher than on live the majority of them are WAY cheaper... remember the Glad Armor +3% Defense... it stabalized at 2 Billion after being as high as 3 billion. I made SO much influence off those recipes/enhancements it wasn't funny (When the announcement came I had 70+ crafted enhancements of that one) - I gave them away for costume contests and to friends because I had mor einfluence than I would ever spend. 

 

So no I do not think the market needs any interference... just because you want it doesn't mean you should be able to always get it - especially for cheap. Do what others do... save influence, farm, play the market, convert, etc etc... 

 

[PSLAnimal]

Paging Mr. Smith, Mr. Adam Smith.

[justicebeliever]

4 minutes ago, PSLAnimal said:

Paging Mr. Smith, Mr. Adam Smith.

He's busy watching Hamilton with Karl Marx

[Mr. Vee]

I must've sold 40 or 50 LotG 7.5 over the weekend. I threw them up for under 7 and they all sold in minutes at 7 or 8 so I must've missed the window where the ebil marketeer was able to corner them. I'm not sure who these supposed hoarding speculators are, but it seems to me there's been a general downward trend on prices across the board apart from purples and some of the ATOs and winter IOs. And as has been mentioned, converters, bucketing and merits give a de facto hard cap on everything. I'm willing to pay a bit more than merit/conversion cost for some things just to avoid the hassle but if market costs got out of hand i have thousands of untouched merits on alts. 

 

Also if the OP is getting a purple drop an hour they're likely killing so much they don't need to worry about inf anyway.

[Some Random User]

Important question: How much Influence do the moderators feel an average build should cost to put together?

 

Players that want to have a build consistent with the rest of the community's guides should not have to become market speculators to afford them. I feel like there's ample reason to see problems down the road. Here are some hits from the Market subforum:

1. https://forums.homecomingservers.com/topic/6063-whats-considered-a-lot-of-wealth-in-the-game
2. https://forums.homecomingservers.com/topic/5927-lotg-proc-manipulation
3. https://forums.homecomingservers.com/topic/6605-craft-convert-detailed-step-by-step-guide
4. https://forums.homecomingservers.com/topic/6392-converters

 

Take the time to read the first page for each of these and you'll get the sense the market is not accessible for those who don't want to do things like converter shenanigans.

Players can go beyond just earning Influence in game, they can manufacture massive amounts of Influence through a synthetic process. Players already have enough money that prices are artificially forced upward toward the Merit-calculated caps for them. Players are forced to engage in a non-gameplay behavior to fund their gear.

This "big money" problem will get worse as time goes on.

[Some Random User]

5 hours ago, GM Capocollo said:

Everything available on the auction house has a soft price cap set at the virtual value of the merits required to buy it from the merit vendor.

Since you have the numbers, in the staff opinion, how much should a build cost? Does the staff want players to fund their builds through conversion-speculation?

[justicebeliever]

15 minutes ago, Some Random User said:

Important question: How much Influence do the moderators feel an average build should cost to put together?

 

Players that want to have a build consistent with the rest of the community's guides should not have to become market speculators to afford them. I feel like there's ample reason to see problems down the road. Here are some hits from the Market subforum:

1. https://forums.homecomingservers.com/topic/6063-whats-considered-a-lot-of-wealth-in-the-game
2. https://forums.homecomingservers.com/topic/5927-lotg-proc-manipulation
3. https://forums.homecomingservers.com/topic/6605-craft-convert-detailed-step-by-step-guide
4. https://forums.homecomingservers.com/topic/6392-converters

 

Take the time to read the first page for each of these and you'll get the sense the market is not accessible for those who don't want to do things like converter shenanigans.

Players can go beyond just earning Influence in game, they can manufacture massive amounts of Influence through a synthetic process. Players already have enough money that prices are artificially forced upward toward the Merit-calculated caps for them. Players are forced to engage in a non-gameplay behavior to fund their gear.

This "big money" problem will get worse as time goes on.

 

I'm not sure what you are asking here...Putting aside the market as non-gameplay, let's look at this....

 

Player fights mobs, completes missions, and earns XP & Inf...Player buys gear on the market...

Player completes story arcs, TFs, gets badges, and earns reward merits...Player buys gear from Merit Vendor

 

These are game play activities that will fund someones gear...You might feel the price is too high, but you have several alternatives...1.) Do you what you would do without a market, and earn salvage/recipes through drops...the drop rates have been dramatically improved over live...2.) Buy thru Merit Rewards...this is what I used to on live...If you feel that market prices are a better than this option, that only reflects that the market is healthy...3.) buy converters and cheap recipes/salvage and make your own items...you don't have to sell them, you can keep and use them (this is what I do on HC)...4.) Buy the Recipe/Salvage from the Market, which is still much cheaper than the completed enhancement...

 

Beyond that, I'd posit that the market is another form of game play (common on many MMO's).  I find the market to be quite fun myself.  It's optional, but so are TF's, and I would still consider them game play...So is forming a team, and I'd still posit that's part of the game play as well...

 

Despite all the examples you've listed, the fact is the market's inflation is already constrained, as I and Cappocollo mentioned, by the salvage seeding and the merit vendors..And again beyond that, because of these caps, overall inflation is limited as well...You mentioned prices on a IO had spiked...they have since dropped...Yes it is a specific example, but it proves the point...

 

Finally, this is a problem, that if it occurs, can be easily remedied, by the developers, without any need for code changes...They can just seed the market with uncommon salvage/recipes.  This is not a problem that a.) needs to be addressed at all IMO, but b.) even so, could be easily remedied when the time comes.

[GM Capocollo]

25 minutes ago, Some Random User said:

Since you have the numbers, in the staff opinion, how much should a build cost? Does the staff want players to fund their builds through conversion-speculation?

You can have the numbers, too.  1 merit's worth the AH price of 3 enhancement converters, or 1/5 of a enhancement booster, or 1/20 of a enhancement catalyst, whichever one's highest.  That sets the soft cap on enhancement prices.

 

As for the total price, that's too general a question to answer satisfyingly.  There's a lot of build possibilities between "solely lv.50 SOs" and "purple 50+5s and Luck of the Gambler in every slot that can bear them", and you definitely don't need to be closer to the latter to play at lv.50.

Edited July 31, 2019 by GM Capocollo

[Yoru-hime]

You're moving your target, Random User. You started with "runaway inflation", then when it was pointed out that inflation was actually quite effectively capped, you started demanding something else entirely. With all respect, do you really have a suggestion in mind or are you just angry that people profiteer on the Auction House?

 

Unless I've missed something, there's nothing in this game that outright requires you to use the Auction House to get.

 

As a recent returner, I'm still a little startled at how easy it is to gather resources for a build through casual play. A measly hundred merits for a VR?  I just about fell out of my chair when that first PvP recipe dropped in Faultline.

[Some Random User]

6 minutes ago, Yoru-hime said:

You're moving your target

I didn't move the target, and neither did justicebeliever. I was trying to have a conversation about the prices being above where the market would otherwise cause them to be. That led to talking about the effects of the staff seeding the auction house. I was aware the staff were doing that, and that's the sort of price control I was expecting them to bring up. The way you have a conversation about inflation is you talk about where prices should be and what is restricting those prices. Nothing that has been said in any way invalidated the initial assertion that the prices are inflated above market rate. They are inflated, and the prices continue to have spikes that go above the price the staff clearly want items to be at. The inflation is intentional; the staff are anchoring the prices above the market rate. The thing that is inflating them is a set of controls the staff put into place. The question of how far the inflation escalates is only one part of the conversation.

 

Back on live the devs said they wanted players to be able to play the game and put together a decent build without ever touching Wentworth's. Back on live when these matters were discussed on the forums there was an acknowledgement that there was some hypothetical budget, based on what was earned without ever touching the auction house, that a player should be able to make a competitive build with. That allowed conversations around prices to have a theoretical budget the player was presumed to be working with. I'm concerned that, unlike on live, the staff didn't figure out where they wanted the economy to sit. "How much should a player be spending on their build" is a very basic economic question. I'm concerned that the staff are unable to answer this question. We need to reach a consensus on what the staff think a "typical" build should look like, then we can talk about how much of a range up or down we get in practice.

[Bionic_Flea]

This is the best market I have ever seen in a game.  It doesn't need additional caps.  All caps do is force people to sell the most valuable items off market.  Remember live when certain PvPIOs went for 2 billion on the market and folks started selling them off market?  I do.

 

As GM Capocollo correctly stated, the merit cost of items acts as a cap on prices already.  Why would I pay more than 100 million in the market since I can straight up buy 100 merits at 1mill a piece and use those merits to buy it myself without market fees or giving a too greedy seller the satisfaction.  In fact, chances are that I could spend much less than 100 million by buying something in the same set or type and then use converters.

 

The fact that the price of LoTGs +7.5 went up to 12 million momentarily is meaningless.  It's back to 6 million at the time I typed this response.

 

PS - One does not make wealth by hoarding,  In this game, you become wealthy by killing many critters or selling many items or both.

 

17 minutes ago, Some Random User said:

Nothing that has been said in any way invalidated the initial assertion that the prices are inflated above market rate.

I'm sorry, but market price is what a buyer is willing to pay a seller for a given item.  If people start buying LOTGs for 12 million then that, by definition, IS the market price

 

Edited August 1, 2019 by Bionic_Flea

[Some Random User]

49 minutes ago, GM Capocollo said:

You can have the numbers, too.  1 merit's worth the AH price of 3 enhancement converters, or 1/5 of a enhancement booster, or 1/20 of a enhancement catalyst, whichever one's highest.  That sets the soft cap on enhancement prices.

 

As for the total price, that's too general a question to answer satisfyingly.

No. The market was only partly anchored to Reward Merits. That's not how to answer that question. A player that just plays the game (without ever visiting Wentworth's) has three sources of income:

1. They earn Influence by fighting and running Missions at a reasonably predictable rate.
2. They can sell Enhancements to N.P.C. shops at a predictable rate.
3. In addition to Influence they earn Reward Merits at a predictable rate.

Back on live the devs made very clear that a player who never wanted to play the spreadsheet game at Wentworth's shouldn't be expected to do so. They were tuning the in-game economy to allow a player who used only the sources described above to be able to be meaningful to their party. "How much should a player be spending on their build" is a very basic economic question. I'm concerned that the staff are unable to answer this question. The fact that a player who uses the auction house to make more money is able to afford something is not the conversation I'm trying to have.

 

If the staff feel players should be forced into converter speculation then that's a different conversation.

[HelenCarnate]

I just paid 6,555,555 for a crafted LotG.  If they were 12 mil plus on the weekend, please explain how runaway inflation allowed me to buy it for just over half that price.  Oh and that was my first bid so I probably could have got it for a little less if I took more time and started lower.

Edited August 1, 2019 by HelenCarnate

[Some Random User]

2 minutes ago, HelenCarnate said:

I just paid 6,555,555 for a crafted LotG.  If they were 12 mil plus on the weekend, please explain how runaway inflation allowed me to buy it for just over half that price.

I can see you didn't read the entire post and the ensuing responses I've made, and there are others who are also just skimming then responding, so I'm going to edit the title of the thread to better reflect what I'm talking about.

 

The staff decided to anchor the prices in a way that doesn't represent the prices the live devs wanted for goods.

[Some Random User]

10 minutes ago, Bionic_Flea said:

I'm sorry, but market price is what a buyer is willing to pay a seller for a given item.  If people start buying LOTGs for 12 million then that, by definition, IS the market price

Actually, the moderators are fixing the price of certain goods (based on the conversion rates of Merit Rewards). This is a command economy, not a free market. The free market rate is the rate we'd get if they weren't fixing the prices.

[Bionic_Flea]

The "moderators" have set a soft cap on prices with the merit vendors.  A reasonable person would not buy from the market at a value above what one would pay at the merit vendor. 

 

Where an item sells between 1 influence and the 2 billion /AH cap is entirely up to the buyer.  A seller cannot sell what a buyer will not buy.  A player cannot "corner the market" where items are continuously being generated from thin air.

Edited August 1, 2019 by Bionic_Flea

[Some Random User]

13 minutes ago, Bionic_Flea said:

Why would I pay more than 100 million in the market since I can straight up buy 100 merits at 1mill a piece and use those merits to buy it myself without market fees or giving a too greedy seller the satisfaction.  In fact, chances are that I could spend much less than 100 million by buying something in the same set or type and then use converters.

That's really two statements. First, if the current staff want us to convert Merit Rewards into Influence and then buy I.O.s, that's a reasonable piece of the system. I get that, and don't oppose that. What is less reasonable is the second part. When I can't get the Enhancement I want because there are literally zero Recipes for sale, or when I can't get the Enhancements I'm told everyone is using because the actual supply is so small, that's less reasonable. They're not infinitely available, and the Enhancement Converter system seems to be how I'm supposed to craft what I am looking for rather than buy them. If that's the case, and I can't memorize Uncommons and Rares, then why do we have Influence?

[Some Random User]

2 minutes ago, Bionic_Flea said:

A player cannot "corner the market" where items are continuously being generated from thin air.

The history shown in the auction house is only for the five prior purchases. Cornering the market is just a matter of affecting six purchases.