An Update from The Homecoming Team

[justicebeliever]

7 hours ago, PaxArcana said:

Anything that has 30% difference, or less, is considered infringing.

Where did you get this tidbit from?  It’s the first I’ve heard of it.  Substantial Similarity is the benchmark I’ve heard and that could be copying very little of another work, but if it’s the core of the expression then it’s infringement.  You could copy 90% of something, but if you miss the key details you are good.  Just about anything with an red and yellow S on its chest would get you into hot water, and you could copy everything about Batman’s likeness except the bat-symbol and pointed ears and you’d be fine.

[PaxArcana]

I don't recall where I read the specific percentage - it was something in a very early class on law (at one point I was contemplating a career in law, whether as an attorney or a paralegal I didn't yet know), over fifteen years ago.  A reference to one or another precedent, IIRC, regarding whether or not a derivative work was considered infringing, or not.

 

Your comments about leaving off tademarked symbols and such, is where the whole "how much is X% of the original work" grey area comes in, as I recall.

Edited August 17, 2019 by PaxArcana

[MunkiLord]

7 hours ago, MunkiLord said:

"Psychotropic Refreshment" sounds like a great name for a Blaster. 

Apparently that name is too long. So I went with Refreshment. 

[ShardWarrior]

5 hours ago, Chuckers said:

That being said, if their desire to cosplay has the potential of shutting down a game *I LOVE* than you can rest assured I will take action. 

So your fun is more important than someone else.  Got it.  The self-centered nature knows no limits.

 

Anyone can make just as many compelling "reasonable" "x%" "judgment calls" about any character anyone makes on here to show infringement of some kind.   It is making a mountain out of a molehill IMO. 

 

As of now, you're technically playing on an illegal unlicensed version of the game.  Should everyone report you?  What you are doing right now  is probably far, far more likely to get the game shut down than someone making a Superman clone.

 

 

Edited August 17, 2019 by ShardWarrior

[justicebeliever]

1 hour ago, ShardWarrior said:

So your fun is more important than someone else.  Got it.  The self-centered nature knows no limits.

Isn’t this true of all of us in the game.  If I am on a team that isn’t fun for me, I don’t ask how much fun everyone else is having, I just quit at an appropriate time.  I pick the missions I want to do, I play the characters I want to play, I make the build choices I want to make...None of those actions I do for your enjoyment.  If your “fun” is going to jeopardize my future fun in the game, I too would take action.

1 hour ago, ShardWarrior said:

Anyone can make just as many compelling "reasonable" "x%" "judgment calls" about any character anyone makes on here to show infringement of some kind.   It is making a mountain out of a molehill IMO. 

I have no idea what this means.  A reasonable person can and has made judgement calls in the past that have separated “infringement” from “original” both in game (during Live) and legally.  Nor what the mountain or molehill are (I understand the expression, just not why you are using it here).

 

1 hour ago, ShardWarrior said:

As of now, you're technically playing on an illegal unlicensed version of the game.  Should everyone report you?  What you are doing right now  is probably far, far more likely to get the game shut down than someone making a Superman clone.

Posting in the forum is going to get the game shutdown???  Playing the game is going to get it shutdown??? I’m really lost on your post...

 

And I think (I hope) all of the poster comments are predicated on their actually being a change in how HC manages “infringement”.  Right now they don’t care and we shouldn’t be wrapped up in enforcement of something that currently doesn’t need enforcing.  

 

While I would understand from a business perspective why Marvel/DC might want to shut down HC because they both have competing products, the PR backlash in the current age of social media would be pretty brutal, so I personally think they are going to stay out of it...

[Skyhawke]

Aaaand now I want to create a character with the “Plain” costume set and name him GenericHero1974.

[ShardWarrior]

6 hours ago, justicebeliever said:

Isn’t this true of all of us in the game.  If I am on a team that isn’t fun for me, I don’t ask how much fun everyone else is having, I just quit at an appropriate time.  I pick the missions I want to do, I play the characters I want to play, I make the build choices I want to make...None of those actions I do for your enjoyment.  If your “fun” is going to jeopardize my future fun in the game, I too would take action. 

You missed the point completely.  None of what you posted here has any impact on other players character concept or design, which is something I think everyone can agree most all players are very passionate about.  If not, we would all be GenericHero001202 and all look the same with the same power set combo.

 

6 hours ago, justicebeliever said:

Posting in the forum is going to get the game shutdown???  Playing the game is going to get it shutdown??? I’m really lost on your post... 

As of this moment, is CoHHC legit?  Do the HC folk have express permission from or legal agreement to be using NCSoft's intellectual property without some form of compensation for the owner?  If the answer to that is no, are you playing a legit game?

 

One of the thoughts on all of this is that the game code is out in the wild now, so anyone can start up a server anywhere.  NCSoft would potentially be issuing C&Ds and filing suits to shut them all down forever.  Is the cost of doing that worth it to them for an antiquated game?  As I said earlier, do some Google searches for skins/mods for just about every game out there and you'll find downloads of skins or mods of copyrighted characters being used without the consent of DC or Marvel or whomever.  Some of them have been around for decades and they are still here.  Many of them are widely known and well advertised via YouTube and such. 

 

If Marvel/DC are so evil that they are going to file copyright infringement suits, why are all these other sites/games still up and running?  Maybe, just maybe Marvel/DC are looking at how much it will cost to file lawsuits against all of them and came to the conclusion it is not financially worth it to them?  Perhaps Marvel filed their lawsuit years ago because they were looking to get into the MMO marketplace and wanted to quash the competition?   Marvel and DC both have their games out on the market now.  The whole "OMG MARVEL IS GOING TO SUE!!!" argument doesn't hold water anymore as far as I'm concerned.  To be anal and paranoid and want to become the "costume police" is just being paranoid and anal.  I can give another example - CBS for decades never said one single word about Star Trek fan films.  In many cases, they fully supported the effort of some who made very high quality studio level content.  That all changed when Axanar came about and someone tried to make money off of it.  The HC folk have said CoHHC will remain free so long as they are in charge of it.  I believe Marvel and DC will do the same as CBS - nothing.  It simply is not worth it to them.  The Marvel who filed the suit is not the Marvel of today. 

 

So what is more likely to happen - Marvel and DC are going to threaten to sue because someone made a clone in an antiquated free MMO or the IP owner is going to pull the plug because someone is using their property without their permission?

 

Spend more time enjoying the game your way and let others do the same in their way.  People adore their clones just as much as the next persons "original" concept.

 

 

Edited August 17, 2019 by ShardWarrior

[GM Capocollo]

There are more companies out there besides Marvel and DC.  If any copyright holder issues a C&D asking Homecoming to take action against characters that infringe on their intellectual property, we are almost certainly going to honor that.

 

It is too early to worry about "costume police", but it is also short-sighted to say that it can never be a concern.

[ShardWarrior]

1 minute ago, GM Capocollo said:

t is too early to worry about "costume police", but it is also short-sighted to say that it can never be a concern.

Never suggested otherwise.  I just doubt it is the pressing issue many are portraying it to be.

[PaxArcana]

In all the years I spent on the Live servers, I noticed one key trend in this debate: the most strident and vociferous defenders of copyclone characters, tended to be the very people making those copyclones in job lots.

 

Just, something to make everyone go "hmmmmmmm" as this debate inevitably grinds ever onward.

[Skyhawke]

Edited August 17, 2019 by Skyhawke
image didn't load at first

[justicebeliever]

@ShardWarrior

 

If you read my last post, I also said it's very unlikely that Marvel/DC are going to take action...

 

Add:  Any one individual playing the game does NOT increase the risk that NCSoft is going to take action.  Not sure what that has to do with anything...you are right, it's the bigger thrrest, but it's irrelevant to the discussion

Edited August 17, 2019 by justicebeliever
Stupid opposable thumbs

[ShardWarrior]

9 minutes ago, PaxArcana said:

In all the years I spent on the Live servers, I noticed one key trend in this debate: the most strident and vociferous defenders of copyclone characters, tended to be the very people making those copyclones in job lots.

 

Just, something to make everyone go "hmmmmmmm" as this debate inevitably grinds ever onward.

The inverse of this is also true - it clearly showed those who have over an over inflated sense of self importance and put their enjoyment of the game above others.  Those people took it upon themselves to dictate to others what they should and should not do because they don't like it.  These are also the same kind of people who criticize how other players play the game - regardless of what the character may look like - because according to them "you aren't playing right".

 

I have no qualms whatsoever admitting I make clones.  What is the harm in it?  How is it affecting you from enjoying the game other than you simply don't like it?  I had them on live for years and never once was there a C&D filed or copyright infringement suit made, so your paranoia over the whole thing is just that - paranoia.

Edited August 17, 2019 by ShardWarrior

[Myrmidon]

6 minutes ago, Skyhawke said:

Now, he needs to found the JusticeDefenderMysteryLeagueMen supergroup.

[Myrmidon]

1 minute ago, ShardWarrior said:

I have no qualms whatsoever admitting I make clones.  What is the harm in it?  How is it affecting you from enjoying the game other than you simply don't like it?  I had them on live for years and never once was there a C&D filed or copyright infringement suit made, so your paranoia over the whole thing is just that - paranoia.

The Defense rests.

[Chuckers]

8 hours ago, ShardWarrior said:

So your fun is more important than someone else.  Got it.  The self-centered nature knows no limits.

 

When it's against the rules and I am following the rules.. then yeah, I'll be little self centered. I'll also help to protect everyone else who is playing by the rules. The person who is breaking the rules by doing something that can hurt everyone else is just a touch more self centered than I.  
I have no problems protecting my interests.

[ShardWarrior]

3 minutes ago, Chuckers said:

When it's against the rules and I am following the rules.. then yeah, I'll be little self centered. I'll also help to protect everyone else who is playing by the rules. The person who is breaking the rules by doing something that can hurt everyone else is just a touch more self centered than I.  
I have no problems protecting my interests.

Eg. "Costume policing"

[Chuckers]

5 minutes ago, ShardWarrior said:

Eg. "Costume policing"

Nope.. it's the whole thing for me.. if the character is a blatant rip off, then I'll say something. i.e. In live I saw a character called Mr. Inr3dible with a really good replicated costume. There was no guessing needed. After politely mentioning to this person that copyright characters were not allowed in game and why, I got the "F- off' response. He got reported. 

Edited August 17, 2019 by Chuckers

[jubakumbi]

2 minutes ago, Chuckers said:

When it's against the rules and I am following the rules.. then yeah, I'll be little self centered. I'll also help to protect everyone else who is playing by the rules. The person who is breaking the rules by doing something that can hurt everyone else is just a touch more self centered than I.  
I have no problems protecting my interests.

I have no issue protecting my interests - fighting FUD.

The GM has spoken!

There is no rule.

If, in the future, there needs to be a rule, one will get made.

 

So why are the creatives _still_ trying to shame people because they like to cosplay, based on some supposition that IF a rule is made, there will be enough 'rule breakers' to shut down the game, when, if fact, there is no real evidence of any of that occurring, only vague fears based on supposition and hearsay?

 

You guys sound like an elementary playground arguing over what type of ice cream you might get if the field trip next year stops for ice cream.

 

What is the intent by the people that just _have_ to let everyone all know how 'bad' coplayers are?

 

And, for the high and mighty posters that just love to throw it out, I advocate for creative freedom and have never, not once, built a trademark, simply because it's not my thing.

The conspiracy theory on that one is easy to shoot down. 

 

People are not slaves to corporate copyrights and trademarks, no matter how much some people fear the Evil Corporations.  

People do not have to play in fear just because a few busy-bodies want to be the costume police to 'save us all'.

 

So really, how many posts about the actual rules on HS have to be posted by the GM before the wannabe costume police and elitist creatives will back off on this?

Really, how many will it take?

I am willing to donate dollars to the GM that makes them so we can get it out of the way so we can stop this FUD from armchair GMs.

[ShardWarrior]

4 minutes ago, Chuckers said:

Nope.. it's the whole thing for me.. if the character is a blatant rip off, then I'll say something. i.e. In live I saw a character called Mr. Inr3dible with a really good replicated costume. There was no guessing needed. After politely mentioning to this person that copyright characters were not allowed in game and why, I got the "F- off' response. He got reported.  

Again,  a compelling argument can be made that any character created in the game is a ripoff. 

[Chuckers]

1 minute ago, jubakumbi said:

So why are the creatives _still_ trying to shame people because they like to cosplay, based on some supposition that IF a rule is made, there will be enough 'rule breakers' to shut down the game, when, if fact, there is no real evidence of any of that occurring, only vague fears based on supposition and hearsay?

 

If you saw my first post, I have NO problem with people cosplaying.. you're right.. there IS no rule right now. so, I don't care what people do. (as long as it isn't offensive.. even then, I just don't play with them right now). 

[GM Capocollo]

There's also no rule about people not liking a particular kind or style of costume.  Some people enjoy playing clones, some people think they're tacky.  Everyone who's been in the latter camp has been reasonable enough about communicating their preference, so I'm not going to tell them to back off.

 

Edited August 17, 2019 by GM Capocollo

[ShardWarrior]

@jubakumbi - these are the same kind of people who tell others they "aren't playing right" when they don't do stuff the way they think it should be done. 

[ShardWarrior]

3 minutes ago, GM Capocollo said:

There's also no rule about people not liking a particular kind or style of costume.  Some people enjoy playing clones, some people think they're tacky.  Everyone who's been in the latter camp has been reasonable enough about communicating their preference, so I'm not going to tell them to back off.

 

Nor should you.  Absolutely nothing wrong with healthy debate! 🙂

[jubakumbi]

6 minutes ago, GM Capocollo said:

There's also no rule about people not liking a particular kind or style of costume.  Some people enjoy playing clones, some people think they're tacky.

And I will not back down from the PoV that those that think they are 'tacky' are a big part of the problem - they are basically saying other people are 'not creative enough' for them, which is some serious ableism and elitist behaviour. 

 

There is no call for taking another person to task over their joy in playing a game because you think their character is 'tacky'.

That's just a human choosing to be mean to another human.

Talking about it in the first place makes those same people turn away from the game, because who wants to play a game with mean people.

Edited August 17, 2019 by jubakumbi