Show me your Tanker tier list!

[Radiaria]

12 minutes ago, Erratic1 said:

I struggle to recall which came first in terms of flouting conventional wisdom. Having taken a Rad/Psi Tanker to 50, I think it was hearing all the bashing of Super Reflexes which prompted me to plan an SR tanker to begin with and that having gone down that road I decided to go whole hog and pair Titan Weapon with it. It is a work in progress, with me having quickly worked him into his 40s before getting distracted and letting him languish. So I cannot speak to end game tanking on him. I can speak to how it was getting there and what I plan on aiming for. 

 

Capping Defenses is trivial using SR. Slot SOs in your defensive powers and you are pretty close. On a resistance based set it would be like slotting SOs and being at 80% resistance--close enough that sneezing would cap you. So the question becomes what to layer on top of that.

 

Resistance is the obvious thing to look at, but unlike the case playing a resistance based set and looking to layer defenses, there is a lot more ground to cover trying to build up resistance than there is when trying to build up defense. SR has scaling resistance baked in. You get 1:1 resistance for every percent your life is under 60%. There is also the Reactive Defenses special IO which gives 3-13% scaling resistance which scales from full life downward. Obviously there is Toughness, which gives a base 15% (smashing/lethal).

Also I have tried out absorption shields available via the ATO and Preventive Medicine. Neither is playstyle altering in terms of impact, but even so I am leaning towards loading up on Health to get the most out of them.

By all means, more power to you! I love seeing people demonstrate the upsides in stereo typically "weaker" sets!

[Frostweaver]

2 hours ago, 3333053222 said:

Ice Armor is just not my absolute favorite. It's defense heavy but doesn't give the benefits of SD - it's really the worst of both worlds. Although it gives a damage aura and mitigations along with good actual tanking ability. This just doesn't have the "bells and whistles" other sets do.

Methinks you should try actually playing ice armor in end game content... I think you would be pleasantly surprised, since the whole set is bells and whistles. It is hard sometimes to see in mids, but it is utterly a hybrid set, and is all about the classic 'layered defenses'
-15% damage (this is separate from resistance, and stacks with it, providing damage reduction above the resist cap)

-30 recharge (again stacks with resistance and damage reduction, mitigation above cap)

Both of these things help your PARTY, not just you... and with their huge duration (up to 15 seconds) and the fact that Ice is almost impossible to slow (80% speed debuff resistance) you can reliably run around and cripple 3 spawns at once in case of an overpull. Not to mention the slowing effects... you have no idea how much running around in slo-mo and occasionally taking potshots from range protects your team from incoming damage.
 

50% DDR and the tools to overload s/l defense to take advantage of it.
a perma-able DULL PAIN CLONE. You would be amazed at the amount of mitigation that having 3000+ hit points offers. It must be experienced to be understood. And because of your defense nature, you are not under the pressure to slot sets simply as LOTG mules. medic is absolutely worthwhile, and can help you and your team.... and it can heal 1200 hp per pop.

TWO taunt auras. Nothing peels aggro off of you. Ever. Not brutes, not blasters. a lot of people don't understand that CE is, hands down, the most reliable and powerful taunt aura in the game. And definitely the most versatile. Not to mention I have my two loaded up with no less than SIX procs and boatloads of extra Taunt.

One of the better end management tools in the game...permanent out-of-the-box, it also caps your defense when you are facing lots of mobs.

+perception out of the box. No need to get tactics, pop yellows, or throw in a rectified reticle to deal with those irritating mobs that throw smoke grenades or hide.

no holes in it's status protection. not even situational holes. And because of it's defense, status protection is vastly magnified by misses.

And, if you care to take it (Many people don't bother, ice is enough) a tier 9 phase shift that also jacks your heal and recovery through the roof... and with most builds, it's up about every 30 seconds, and if you are in trouble, you can usually hibernate, get back to full, and drop back out before CE even wears off! It's like tanking while using rest.

I would love a buff to ice, but any buff you could offer (except maybe taunt sets in ce/icicles) would probably make it OP. But Ice armor is definitely one of those sets that people that haven't played it have trouble understanding. It is simply impossible to understand what being able to reliably cripple 40+ mobs is like.

Anyway, that's my 2 cents... I think Ice is literally the most underrated set in the game. And frankly I don't expect that to change, and it's kind of fun the shocked reactions you get from people on your team that have always been told 'ice is underpowered' when they see what you can REALLY do! It's worth just trying out, if only for the fun factor when you make converts. It's biggest downside is that EVERY power is extremely useful. People skip hibernate... not because it's not extremely useful (it is) but because ice can be a little slot and power selection starved, and some folks HAVE to have combat jumping, Hasten, and ball lightning.

What's even more (evil) fun is when you put it on a brute though and (ahem) leave the tanker standing there all by himself feeling like a punk because you just out-tankered the crap out of him, taunting desperately to try to get at least a little aggro.

Or when you 'take a little break' in the ITF while getting pounded on by dozens of kheldians and minotaurs in order to tport, rez, and heal a fallen comrade who got a little lost. and you can practically feel that empath finding a sudden inspiration to try out traps or trick arrow.

Edited September 30, 2019 by Frostweaver

[Heraclea]

Radiation primary gets a power that heals teammates as well.  My /Rad scrapper is working on her second healing badge, so it's useful for that healing tanker you always wanted.  Right now I'd say that Rad is in the best place for the resistance-first sets, it's easy to softcap Toxic and Energy damage as well as Smashing/Lethal, and that's useful across the board. 

 

The thing about Invulnerability is that while it is easy to softcap defenses on paper, you don't have to;  what you need is to hit the softcap with one mob in range.  Heraclea is very close to that (with one mob she's around 42% s/l) and that's good enough for all practical purposes. 

[ShardWarrior]

On 8/26/2019 at 4:30 PM, SlimPickens said:

Dark armor being rated only above average makes me think you havent seen what a fully IOed incarnate level dark tank can achieve stat wise.

 

Capped resist to all but en,toxic- which can be capped with just a few mobs in your ATO resist proc aura.

 

Def in the high 35%+ to all which can easily be capped with just a few mobs in your melee support aura.

 

A full 0-100 heal on about a 10 sec cooldown with just 2 mobs in range.

 

The ability to tank Psi damage better than any other set in game makes dark very strong for main tanking end game content with its prolific psi typed mobs.

 

I personally rate dark very high on the list, perhaps #1 overall after significant investment of purple sets and proper slotting. out of the box its got holes that need filling, but once you address those, I think its the king of the RES based sets.

I think it safe to say most all sets have holes that need fixing and that's by design.  It's more a question of what it will take to get them patched up and how much an investment a player is willing to make.  There is a big difference between fully pimping out a character with purple IO sets than it is picking a pool power or two to put something at cap. 

 

I had a Dark/Dark back in the day and didn't care for it at all - hated it in fact.... until I was able to spend ludicrous sums of inf to purple it out as you have suggested.  Dark always suffered from the lack of KB protection/resistance IMO.  Never quite understood why this set was designed that way.

 

 

[SlimPickens]

3 hours ago, ShardWarrior said:

I think it safe to say most all sets have holes that need fixing and that's by design.  It's more a question of what it will take to get them patched up and how much an investment a player is willing to make.  There is a big difference between fully pimping out a character with purple IO sets than it is picking a pool power or two to put something at cap. 

 

I had a Dark/Dark back in the day and didn't care for it at all - hated it in fact.... until I was able to spend ludicrous sums of inf to purple it out as you have suggested.  Dark always suffered from the lack of KB protection/resistance IMO.  Never quite understood why this set was designed that way.

 

 

Its certainly not a set for the poor or mids challenged.

 

But once its properly built and invested in, its high S level in what you can achieve with it. Only Rad armor has the ability to max as many resists like dark can, and dark can get very high in def to all typed rather than just melee and s/l like a well built rad. So as far as what can be done with the sets at top level of investment, its my pick as the best overall set.

 

The KB hole is rather frustrating, but with 3 slots for KB protection its just as sturdy as any of the other sets, and I planned for that as the major sacrifice needed to get it where it needs to be.

[Frostweaver]

I figure this is not I5. End game results with full IO slotting are the rule, not the exception.

Basing primary utility on what it's like with only SO's seems.... really foolish. Some sets gain dramatically in power solely based on some special IO slotting options that more 'powerful' sets simply don't have.

Edited October 1, 2019 by Frostweaver

[Radiaria]

11 hours ago, Frostweaver said:

Methinks you should try actually playing ice armor in end game content... I think you would be pleasantly surprised, since the whole set is bells and whistles. It is hard sometimes to see in mids, but it is utterly a hybrid set, and is all about the classic 'layered defenses'
-15% damage (this is separate from resistance, and stacks with it, providing damage reduction above the resist cap)

-30 recharge (again stacks with resistance and damage reduction, mitigation above cap)

Both of these things help your PARTY, not just you... and with their huge duration (up to 15 seconds) and the fact that Ice is almost impossible to slow (80% speed debuff resistance) you can reliably run around and cripple 3 spawns at once in case of an overpull. Not to mention the slowing effects... you have no idea how much running around in slo-mo and occasionally taking potshots from range protects your team from incoming damage.
 

50% DDR and the tools to overload s/l defense to take advantage of it.
a perma-able DULL PAIN CLONE. You would be amazed at the amount of mitigation that having 3000+ hit points offers. It must be experienced to be understood. And because of your defense nature, you are not under the pressure to slot sets simply as LOTG mules. medic is absolutely worthwhile, and can help you and your team.... and it can heal 1200 hp per pop.

TWO taunt auras. Nothing peels aggro off of you. Ever. Not brutes, not blasters. a lot of people don't understand that CE is, hands down, the most reliable and powerful taunt aura in the game. And definitely the most versatile. Not to mention I have my two loaded up with no less than SIX procs and boatloads of extra Taunt.

One of the better end management tools in the game...permanent out-of-the-box, it also caps your defense when you are facing lots of mobs.

+perception out of the box. No need to get tactics, pop yellows, or throw in a rectified reticle to deal with those irritating mobs that throw smoke grenades or hide.

no holes in it's status protection. not even situational holes. And because of it's defense, status protection is vastly magnified by misses.

And, if you care to take it (Many people don't bother, ice is enough) a tier 9 phase shift that also jacks your heal and recovery through the roof... and with most builds, it's up about every 30 seconds, and if you are in trouble, you can usually hibernate, get back to full, and drop back out before CE even wears off! It's like tanking while using rest.

I would love a buff to ice, but any buff you could offer (except maybe taunt sets in ce/icicles) would probably make it OP. But Ice armor is definitely one of those sets that people that haven't played it have trouble understanding. It is simply impossible to understand what being able to reliably cripple 40+ mobs is like.

Anyway, that's my 2 cents... I think Ice is literally the most underrated set in the game. And frankly I don't expect that to change, and it's kind of fun the shocked reactions you get from people on your team that have always been told 'ice is underpowered' when they see what you can REALLY do! It's worth just trying out, if only for the fun factor when you make converts. It's biggest downside is that EVERY power is extremely useful. People skip hibernate... not because it's not extremely useful (it is) but because ice can be a little slot and power selection starved, and some folks HAVE to have combat jumping, Hasten, and ball lightning.

What's even more (evil) fun is when you put it on a brute though and (ahem) leave the tanker standing there all by himself feeling like a punk because you just out-tankered the crap out of him, taunting desperately to try to get at least a little aggro.

Or when you 'take a little break' in the ITF while getting pounded on by dozens of kheldians and minotaurs in order to tport, rez, and heal a fallen comrade who got a little lost. and you can practically feel that empath finding a sudden inspiration to try out traps or trick arrow.

You've made an excellent point. 

 

I still do not believe Ice is in the same league as the top 4 I placed, and I still do not think it's *quite* at the level of Bio Armor, but I can see an argument for its utilities being place in "Above Average" territory. I actually have played this set on a Stalker (ice/ice) I really love it, I just didn't believe being a defense-based set it would translate very well for tankers, but I can see now that it does. I will move it up on my list. The rest of them though I am pretty familiar with and I don't really think there's much that's going to change my mind about them at this point. 

[Frostweaver]

Welp, if you need a fun build...

But about being 'top league', I am not sure that there is such an animal, or even what exactly that is supposed to mean. +4/8 content? Trivial. Incarnate trials? no sweat. STF? done that. ITF? Cut my teeth on it. MSR? Three times a week. Alphas? Never met an alpha I couldn't blow off  or click through even with a dry insp tray.
Maybe you could define 'top tier'? Because right now, I have a strong suspicion that 'top tier' means "The Tanker I grew up with" and everything that is different just doesn't make the grade.

And, no offense, I LOVE Bio armor, But it's not in the same League as Ice Armor. Not even close. My Bio Tankers have to work ten times as hard to hold aggro and simply SURVIVE as my Ice tanker ever has, and soloing speed against hard content is 10-30% slower, easily. Yes, Bio CAN survive, but it's a stressful click-fest rather than smoothly bouncing between spawns and only occasionally popping a self-heal when your HP reaches 50% and freezes there. Not to mention offensive is vastly overrated for anyone but stalkers.

Obviously It cannot mean solo speed (Or stone would be at the bottom of the list) or simply survivability against EVERYTHING since standing around staring at a Dead team is the hallmark of a bad set/build for Tankers. It's obviously not synergies, or having the end management to support ANY secondary, and clearly it's not farming speed.

What are your demands for top tier? That you be able to fall asleep while fighting Recluse or Hamidon and still win? Because That means NO tanker can be top tier. I mean, you seem to have some sort of nebulous and unmentionable qualifier for 'top tier' and I can barely figure out what it is NOT, let alone what it IS.

What, exactly, is the problem? Is it it's reliance on IO's? because by that Metric, SD would fall dead last. And a set's performace with SO's only hasn't mattered since I5. Is it the primarily defensive/regen nature of the set? Again, I would point out SR, SD, and even stone outside of granite.

Please son, give us your EXACT definition of 'top tier' and take the castors off those Goalposts. Or bite the bullet and simply admit that it has nothing to do with performance, and everything to do with appearance and sound effects... If you don't like the special effects or the irritating sound effects, I totally get it... but that is entirely subjective and has NOTHING to do with it's performance as a set.

Heck, I totally HATE ice melee for stalkers even though it's arguably the most powerful stalker set in the game. Not because of it's performance, but because the ice swords put the 'ugh' un ugly, and the blizzard winds sound effects set my teeth on edge. (arguably means I admit that there are probably valid arguments against it, not that it's time to argue with me about it in a tanker forum, hehe.) But that I will freely admit that that is utterly subjective, and has nothing to do with performance.

Edited October 1, 2019 by Frostweaver

[Duck-Smokes-Quack]

On 9/30/2019 at 6:09 PM, Frostweaver said:

you are not under the pressure to slot sets simply as LOTG mules. medic is absolutely worthwhile, and can help you and your team.... and it can heal 1200 hp per pop.

What did you mean here by "medic is absolutely worthwhile"? You mean the medicine pool?


I really like Ice as a theme but it seems litterally every single version of Ice/ or /Ice in CoH is dislikedby the community 😣
Did the original devs just do a terrible job desiging them? Are people inherantly biased against ice? Who knows


You certainly sound like an Ice Armor enthusiast! I am considering making my first ever tanker and would love it to be Ice/

Do you have any recommendations / example builds I could take a look at? Maybe even suggest a secondary since I have to admit /Ice does look weak on tankers (although admittedly ive never actually tried it)

[TungstenShark]

1 hour ago, Duck-Smokes-Quack said:

Did the original devs just do a terrible job desiging them?

The short answer is, yes. Ice Armor was severely lacking for a good portion of its life. Lots of folks still remember it as a lackluster set and have not played it in awhile. I include myself in this statement, as I am trying to figure out which AT to try Ice on again. Tanker seems to be a good bet.

[Frostweaver]

Ice is like stalkers....It was developed a certain way, and people still remember it's original form. Even though, to be honest, it was greatly improved WAY back in I12, the attitude remains.

Generally it is entirely possible to get the majority of your resistances into the 50% area, and to perma DP pretty easily. But it doesn't use the 'standard' tanker pool sets that people are used to tanking as LOTG mules, and a lot of the slotting is very different from what people are used to. And yes, Medicine.

Also, Like fire, it can be used to blow through a specific type of farm, but no one has made a 'freeze farm' yet 🙂 But it does pretty darned well on a good old fashioned s/l farm too.

 

I DO want to make one thing clear though... It's a hybrid defense set. In My experience, Defense sets tend to be Far more powerful on Scrappers than tankers or brutes. If you Plan on 'experimenting' with Ice, I strongly suggest trying it out on a scrapper first...

People have tried to make scrapper farmers before, but they have always been massively handicapped unless they take melee/defense hybrid for it's aoe taunt. In my experience (I have made a LOT of farmers) Ice is hands-down the best scrapper for the job. Ever so slightly slower than a fire brute, but still bloody fast once you get the reds rolling in.


I love Ice tankers and have since live, but they are about a mid-tier tanker set. On brutes, they are above average. On Scrappers and stalkers, though, ice is top notch. On sentinels, they truly screwed ice up and it is absolutely bottom of the barrel...I understand why they did what they did to it, but they should have done something else.  An ice/ice stalker is a fearsome sight indeed.

Ice Tankers are nearly impossible to kill. Ice stalkers/scrappers are almost unkillable PLUS they turn their enemies into half-frozen slush at the same time. However, Fire melee in particular on Tankers is notable because Combust only exists on tankers, and is a savagely destructive pbaoe (Although it was a lot better before people were able to start slotting -res in the crappier sets)

 

My favorite melee sets with ice are fire, Stone (because it's destructive and the 'crystal' hammer matches Ice wonderfully), Rad (because Rad melee is just the best melee set in the game and recoloring it white makes you look like you are freezing everything without having to deal with ice melee's suck), Spines (because icy spines are the one spine set that doesn't look like crap... again the theme) and TW (because Ice is one of the few sets that can actually pair with it without constantly sucking on an empty blue bar or interrupting momentum for a 'press not to die' button).

But of course, Fire has a special place because of how rarely it is resisted and theme and rad because...not only does it have some of the better aoe, but siphon eliminates the need for the entire medicine pool. Melting people is also fun.

Edited October 13, 2019 by Frostweaver

[Radiaria]

On 10/1/2019 at 1:05 AM, Frostweaver said:

Welp, if you need a fun build...

But about being 'top league', I am not sure that there is such an animal, or even what exactly that is supposed to mean. +4/8 content? Trivial. Incarnate trials? no sweat. STF? done that. ITF? Cut my teeth on it. MSR? Three times a week. Alphas? Never met an alpha I couldn't blow off  or click through even with a dry insp tray.
Maybe you could define 'top tier'? Because right now, I have a strong suspicion that 'top tier' means "The Tanker I grew up with" and everything that is different just doesn't make the grade.

And, no offense, I LOVE Bio armor, But it's not in the same League as Ice Armor. Not even close. My Bio Tankers have to work ten times as hard to hold aggro and simply SURVIVE as my Ice tanker ever has, and soloing speed against hard content is 10-30% slower, easily. Yes, Bio CAN survive, but it's a stressful click-fest rather than smoothly bouncing between spawns and only occasionally popping a self-heal when your HP reaches 50% and freezes there. Not to mention offensive is vastly overrated for anyone but stalkers.

Obviously It cannot mean solo speed (Or stone would be at the bottom of the list) or simply survivability against EVERYTHING since standing around staring at a Dead team is the hallmark of a bad set/build for Tankers. It's obviously not synergies, or having the end management to support ANY secondary, and clearly it's not farming speed.

What are your demands for top tier? That you be able to fall asleep while fighting Recluse or Hamidon and still win? Because That means NO tanker can be top tier. I mean, you seem to have some sort of nebulous and unmentionable qualifier for 'top tier' and I can barely figure out what it is NOT, let alone what it IS.

What, exactly, is the problem? Is it it's reliance on IO's? because by that Metric, SD would fall dead last. And a set's performace with SO's only hasn't mattered since I5. Is it the primarily defensive/regen nature of the set? Again, I would point out SR, SD, and even stone outside of granite.

Please son, give us your EXACT definition of 'top tier' and take the castors off those Goalposts. Or bite the bullet and simply admit that it has nothing to do with performance, and everything to do with appearance and sound effects... If you don't like the special effects or the irritating sound effects, I totally get it... but that is entirely subjective and has NOTHING to do with it's performance as a set.

Heck, I totally HATE ice melee for stalkers even though it's arguably the most powerful stalker set in the game. Not because of it's performance, but because the ice swords put the 'ugh' un ugly, and the blizzard winds sound effects set my teeth on edge. (arguably means I admit that there are probably valid arguments against it, not that it's time to argue with me about it in a tanker forum, hehe.) But that I will freely admit that that is utterly subjective, and has nothing to do with performance.

I thought my post pretty clearly defined that it can do more than just be "tough." Or doesn't have issues being "tough." As nice as you make Ice out to be, I've been in a number of teams with Ices recently (yes IO'd) in ITFs and I must say that defense-based secondaries for a tanker are just not preferable there are a lot of AV's/monsters that have streakbreakers/autohits and this makes defense less appealing on Tankers. If proc'd out, Radiation Armor is not only excellent at providing the toughness a tanker needs, it gives you the health through means of absorb which saves you embarrassing health losses, and it becomes one of the best proc-monster sets for tankers. And while yea, it doesn't have CE, it has Beta Decay which is by no means an insignificant specifically TYPED OUT taunt aura.  Rad also has a far more consistent self heal even if you decided to totally proc it. I'm sorry, Ice does NOT have these tools, nor does it provide SCALING REGENERATION/RECOVERY. Dark being where it is probably isn't a shocker to anyone. And Shield Defense ESPECIALLY with the new tanker changes and rage changes, can be EXTRAORDINARILY good with Tankers now (remember: that T8 PBAOE? Yeah, it'll now be at almost the Stalker Scale now .95 vs 1.00) and they can take SS too and can now build enough defense to make it so they can totally ignore rage crashes now. Shield/SS will be on the rise.

 

So now you ask, why is Fiery Aura so high on my list then? Because FA offers damage at a level Rad does only if proc monster'd out. But far far far more often with its own set of amazing proc options in its powers. It also does Taunt fairly reliably with BA and the damage you're CONSTANTLY doing. 

 

While CE may give you the taunt you love, Bio Armor can arguably do the same thing. I hate bursting this bubble but as great as CE is, Bio Armor has Evolving Armor which is also a TAUNT SPECIFICALLY TYPED AURA THAT ALSO DEBUFFS, and it also has a DAMAGE AURA just like Ice does (in fact, I have never seen anyone peel off my Bio tanker, ever, now that may be because Ice isn't used that often, but if that's the only one more "taunty," I'll gladly take being able to do that with much better regeneration, levels of consistency, absorbs, better resistances, etc.) Also, I'll mention that you could easily make a macro so that Hasten and Ablative are both on autocast and completely fix all issues with "clickiness" besides using DNA Siphon (also is a much more reliable heal than Hoarfrost is, down for a minute plus is not that consistent when you need it, down 20 seconds is a LOT different) once in awhile with big mobs every 30 seconds and Parasitic but I skipped Parasitic. So only one clickie? I'm sorry I don't see how this set is "so clicky" after Macro'd properly. So while clearly Ice is ahead of certain sets, I wouldn't put it so far above everything or any higher than where I placed it after the revision.

 

Edited October 12, 2019 by 3333053222

[Frostweaver]

You don't have perma hoarfrost? and you don't have almost 3400 health? I find my 1600 hp heal from uninterruptible aid self every 5 seconds much more reliable than your bio/rad/fire heals. which I can do, because I don't have to buy 4 LOTG mule pools in order to get decent recharge.

Yeah. comparing the best bits from 3 separate sets in order to refute Ice being mid to top tier? You don't get to make a rad/dark/bio/whatever Tank.  If I got heals, scaling resist, beta decay, capped resists, a pbaoe teleport, ignore rage crash, Burn, a debuff aura, absorbs, and capped defense, DNA siphon, and -to-hit, I would happily call that a 'top tier' set. Too bad that set doesn't actually exist.

Look, I get you are a resist monkey. And I even agree that defense sets suck on tankers because they cap in the same place everyone caps, instead of tanker's resistance bonus. Except that Ice is NOT a pure defense set. There's only 1 of those, and that's SR, and yes, it sucks. Just play the goddamned set. I will be happy to give you all the help you need with builds, pling, tips, tricks, and even influence/enhancements if you are playing on Excelsior.

Ignorance is only bliss until it kills you. And you still have not defined 'top tier', you have only defined what you play.

Edited October 13, 2019 by Frostweaver

[Radiaria]

5 hours ago, Frostweaver said:

You don't have perma hoarfrost? and you don't have almost 3400 health? I find my 1600 hp heal from uninterruptible aid self every 5 seconds much more reliable than your bio/rad/fire heals. which I can do, because I don't have to buy 4 LOTG mule pools in order to get decent recharge.

Yeah. comparing the best bits from 3 separate sets in order to refute Ice being mid to top tier? You don't get to make a rad/dark/bio/whatever Tank.  If I got heals, scaling resist, beta decay, capped resists, a pbaoe teleport, ignore rage crash, Burn, a debuff aura, absorbs, and capped defense, DNA siphon, and -to-hit, I would happily call that a 'top tier' set. Too bad that set doesn't actually exist.

Look, I get you are a resist monkey. And I even agree that defense sets suck on tankers because they cap in the same place everyone caps, instead of tanker's resistance bonus. Except that Ice is NOT a pure defense set. There's only 1 of those, and that's SR, and yes, it sucks. Just play the goddamned set. I will be happy to give you all the help you need with builds, pling, tips, tricks, and even influence/enhancements if you are playing on Excelsior.

Ignorance is only bliss until it kills you. And you still have not defined 'top tier', you have only defined what you play.

I rate them based upon mainly: does it have a damage aura? If so, it rises to at least average imo, because it helps maintain agro and gives a good place to put the tanker ATO resistance proc. I also rank them in the place that they are if they do more than "one thing" meaning, does this set help you both in dealing damage AND taking it? This is the reason why Invul is rated imo, as average.

If a set is not going to help you to deal damage in this meta, as the game exists, I do not think that it's a very well designed set. The top sets I rated are either very good at dealing damage and getting good resistances or have a strong variety of tanking options along with things like CC that push them to "indef." Shield defense is going to get some massive buffs incoming and provides resistances, gaining a good PBAOE, and is overall a nice set and pretty tough, Dark provides CC and -to hit which really helps teammates and has a damage aura, Fiery Aura is the most damaging of all while allowing you to get decent resistances even though clearly not the tankiest, and Rad is well, indisputable. I've stated that these are the reasons these sets are placed the way that they are, so I don't really understand what you mean by the fact I haven't defined top tier, I've stated that IMO to be top tier, the set must shine in a variety of ways. These are not just the sets I've played, I've genuinely played them all except Ice Armor as a Tanker, but I will make a beta on it and *try* it but I do not believe my opinion will be dramatically changed.

 

I did not rate Ice as the downright middle, I rated it "above average." But I still do not think that it rises as high as Bio Armor does but they are ultimately in the same category. 

[Frostweaver]

Right. and as someone who has played both Ice and Bio, I consider Ice slightly above Bio. I still think you should play it before trying to rate it, because it HAS damage (icicles) It has truly amazing aggro management, in CE, it has massive Hp bonuses, and heals, it helps your team, it helps your primary with end management. it has resists and defense, has a great place to dump procs (icicles again) and it has hibernate... which, while not as good as the scrapper version, still takes you from nothing to full with complete invulnerability in less than 5 seconds (which is a fantastic way to spend your rage crash if you are SS) and when slotted, recharges in about 30 seconds.

it is also chock full of stuff that helps you deal damage. -recharge resistance out the wazoo, -slow resistance (ever try to get in the middle of a a bunch of knives of artemis, or keep a group of green ink men locked down?) so that you can keep dishing out damage and sucking up aggro,

Bio's little 10% damage boost for which you pay a nasty -resist is not even in the same league as being able to run across caltrops and ignore siphon speed. Only recovery mode is any good, and Ice has the same tools for managing end and regen... endurance which keeps you fighting and dealing damage while Dark is Gasping for breath.

Every objection you try to raise is simply showcasing your lack of experience with the set. Why are you so dead set against even trying it? I have offered you everything you need to jet right to the highest levels, and experience it yourself, but you have not even bothered turning the offers down... you simply ignored it.

To me, that means you don't even WANT to learn anything that might interefere with your preconceptions. Or at least you don't want to admit that the only reason you have a problem with ice is because it's sorta ugly.


You know what? This whole thread is sorta stupid. I doubt more than a handful of people have played EVERY set with enough different builds to rate them meaningfully. Let's try a bar chart instead. That way people will KNOW what each set has to offer.

Edited October 13, 2019 by Frostweaver

[Myrmidon]

On 9/30/2019 at 11:12 AM, Erratic1 said:

I struggle to recall which came first in terms of flouting conventional wisdom. Having taken a Rad/Psi Tanker to 50, I think it was hearing all the bashing of Super Reflexes which prompted me to plan an SR tanker to begin with and that having gone down that road I decided to go whole hog and pair Titan Weapon with it. It is a work in progress, with me having quickly worked him into his 40s before getting distracted and letting him languish. So I cannot speak to end game tanking on him. I can speak to how it was getting there and what I plan on aiming for. 

 

Capping Defenses is trivial using SR. Slot SOs in your defensive powers and you are pretty close. On a resistance based set it would be like slotting SOs and being at 80% resistance--close enough that sneezing would cap you. So the question becomes what to layer on top of that.

 

Resistance is the obvious thing to look at, but unlike the case playing a resistance based set and looking to layer defenses, there is a lot more ground to cover trying to build up resistance than there is when trying to build up defense. SR has scaling resistance baked in. You get 1:1 resistance for every percent your life is under 60%. There is also the Reactive Defenses special IO which gives 3-13% scaling resistance which scales from full life downward. Obviously there is Toughness, which gives a base 15% (smashing/lethal).

Also I have tried out absorption shields available via the ATO and Preventive Medicine. Neither is playstyle altering in terms of impact, but even so I am leaning towards loading up on Health to get the most out of them.

Grab a Shield Wall proc. They are easy to either buy or convert and add another 5% Resistance.

[Erratic1]

2 minutes ago, Myrmidon said:

Grab a Shield Wall proc. They are easy to either buy or convert and add another 5% Resistance.

Will do. Thanks for the suggestion!