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Show me your Tanker tier list!

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Looking for where this is wrong. Please advise:

a tier list

Indefatigable

Bio Armor

Fiery Aura

Shield Defense

 

Willpower

Dark Melee
Dual Blades
Fiery Melee
Radiation Melee
Spines
Staff Fighting
Street Justice
Titan Weapons
Above Average

Dark Armor

Electrical Melee
Kinetic Melee
Martial Arts
Psionic Melee
Average

Electric Armor

Invulnerability

Stone Armor

Super Reflexes

Battle Axe
Broad Sword
Claws
Katana
Super Strength
War Mace
Requires A Rework

Ice Armor

Regeneration

Energy Melee
Ice Melee
Savage Melee
Stone Melee

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There are no regeneration tankers. 

 

Invulnerability is a top tier armor set for tankers, bringing much less to the table to scrappers and brutes.  It is tougher than anything except Granite fresh out of the box.  Adding an attack set with strong synergy with it, like Dark Melee, makes it as tough as Granite with none of the drawbacks. 

 

Willpower belongs to a lower tier, and Reflexes lower yet; it's too easy to peel mobs off of you because of weak taunt auras. 


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I don't see Rad Armor in there. I'd say it's top tier.

 

As for secondaries, I think /Ice doesn't get enough love - especially after the changes to immobilize powers (they no longer neglect KD effects), making Ice Patch a beautiful tool to use and abuse.


Winter's Wrath - Ice/Ice Tanker

False Fiction - Illusion/Storm Controller

Bohemian Rhapsody - Time/Sonic Defender

 

Reunion

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, Heraclea said:

There are no regeneration tankers. 

 

Invulnerability is a top tier armor set for tankers, bringing much less to the table to scrappers and brutes.  It is tougher than anything except Granite fresh out of the box.  Adding an attack set with strong synergy with it, like Dark Melee, makes it as tough as Granite with none of the drawbacks. 

 

Willpower belongs to a lower tier, and Reflexes lower yet; it's too easy to peel mobs off of you because of weak taunt auras. 

Im curious about how the taunt aura works.

 

WP taunt is listed in mids/pines as mag 3, while SR is mag 4 but  low duration.  

 

If taunt mag actually matters (since you hear conflicting info on this) then it should be possible to slot taunt duration to shore up the SR problem some.

=====

 

Fire imo would not be top teir since its not as durable as invul or wp.   But of course since tankers usually have durability to spare it can be great at making up some of the damage issues tankers deal with.  

 

SR is actually an interesting case my SR tank was over the softcap to all positions at level 18.  So i can't think of a faster maturing set. 

 

Stone actually could use looked at.  Maybe its negatives are a little too drastic now with IOs letting other sets be so unkillable.  

 

Much easier to build a invul to basically be granite tough for all practical purposes, than it is for stone to build to do damage similar to that invul 

 

 

Edited by Haijinx

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Play style and proper planning can make up for lacks in a set. I mained (sic) Willpower/Stone Melee.

 

 While Stones taunt is marginally less than other tankers the proliferation of knockdowns and holds more than makes up for it in my experience. I've never understood why this facet of Stone melee is overlooked. It's always an apples to apples look at Taunt alone. That is an egregious mistake. 

 

I main tanked all content in end game without issue. I soloed most content endgame without issue. Before I had the ungodly influence build out I ended the game with ( or rather the game ended 😞 )  It was challenging ( read: fun! ) after it was still fun , but frankly boring at times too.

 

I never felt like Stone Melee needed a rethink. Any changes to taunt would have made it the "obvious choice" instead of the hidden gem it always was.

 

I agree Willpower needs to be in the second tier. It is fantastic, but isn't "defensively tanky" enough to be top tier.

 

With stone melee, however, they were a very synchronous combination. If they were on their butts they couldn't hit you, minimizing the lesser defensive numbers. 

 

Only my opinion. I can't make you change your minds. You wont change mine because I had 5 years of my guy under my belt. Just something to consider.

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Years ago, I wrote a guide: Which tanker should I bring to the task force?  This is quite obsolete, given that there r are now more primary defense sets to consider and more task forces to talk about.  But the point remains: all tanker primaries give adequate survivability, and some work better on some content than others do.  All of the tanker primaries have strengths and weaknesses; you probably don't want to take a Willpower tanker to a fire farm.  Granite is great if you're tanking Mary Macomber. Granite on a Council map is awful. 

 

Tanker primaries and attack sets have complicated synergies and disharmonies that are especially pronounced on the tanker AT because survival is your first job and aggro management your second.  As Nintova suggests, you can treat a tanker like a melee controller.  Stone melee is good for this.  Fault is a controller power that made it into a melee set, and is highly amusing even if it does no damage.  There are specific pitfalls to avoid: melee sets like Titan Weapons or Energy Melee, with long slow animations, work best with set and forget defense sets like Invulnerability.  If your survival depends on click powers they are not working in your favor.   Do you add to your defenses with your attacks (e.g. Shield/Broadsword) or do you use your attacks to add a layer of defense to resistance (e.g. Dark Armor/Katana)?  Simple 'rankings' lack nuance. 

 

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Posted (edited)

Invulnerability is stupid good on Tankers. I'd definitely put it in the Indefatigable category - with IOs you'll have capped S/L resists, softcapped defense to all types but psi, and capped HP. It's a monster.

 

I'd also bump Willpower down to Above Average if only because of its weaker taunt aura, which is important on a Tanker.

I'll also go ahead echo the others' sentiment that all Tanker primaries can be fun and playable.

Edited by Jon

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This is exactly the sort of feedback I was looking for. Can you call out any "Reese's Cups"? That meaning unusually good combinations. For example, if (chosen at random) Super Reflexes and War Mace weren't as good individually but when combined were better. What about combinations that undermine each other?

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Crazy strong: Invulnerability/Dark Melee, Shield/Dark Melee.  Defense sets generally benefit from the -tohit in Dark Melee.  All tankers benefit from the powerful, fast charging self heal that is also an attack.  Put some accurate healing IOs in there and you're off to the races.  Invulnerability with Dark Melee is close to Granite toughness with none of the drawbacks.  Shield benefits it in other ways, by supplying the AoE attack that Dark Melee is weak at.  Primaries that already supply AoEs like Bio and Fire may also find it useful. 

 

Bad: Fire or Bio armor paired with Titan Weapons or Energy Melee.  Those primaries depend on click powers for survival.  Attack sets with long, slow, painful animations get them killed because of unresponsive keys while the animations play.  Healing powers and inspirations ought to take immediate effect rather than waiting on animations, but they don't. 


VADITE.  VENAMINI.  CALVARIAS TRUCIDATE!

Torchbearer ~ Amazon Army: AMAZON-963 | Excelsior ~ The Holy Office: HOLY-1610

Everlasting ~ Firemullet Groupies: FM-5401 | Indomitable ~ Sparta: SPARTA-3759

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On 8/24/2019 at 10:06 PM, Heraclea said:

As Nintova suggests, you can treat a tanker like a melee controller. 

THIS! So much this!!

 

I have been saying this for years! Ice Melee is another good set for this, albeit lower on damage. Titan Weapons is another great set that feels like it was designed with Tankers in mind. Lots of cone/AOE and KD and nice damage to boot.


"As Nintova suggests, you can treat a tanker like a melee controller."

- Heraclea

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Dark armor being rated only above average makes me think you havent seen what a fully IOed incarnate level dark tank can achieve stat wise.

 

Capped resist to all but en,toxic- which can be capped with just a few mobs in your ATO resist proc aura.

 

Def in the high 35%+ to all which can easily be capped with just a few mobs in your melee support aura.

 

A full 0-100 heal on about a 10 sec cooldown with just 2 mobs in range.

 

The ability to tank Psi damage better than any other set in game makes dark very strong for main tanking end game content with its prolific psi typed mobs.

 

I personally rate dark very high on the list, perhaps #1 overall after significant investment of purple sets and proper slotting. out of the box its got holes that need filling, but once you address those, I think its the king of the RES based sets.

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Posted (edited)

Can I ask why Stone Melee is at the bottom? I've had fun tanking with that melee set since the game went live, especially after they changed its KB attacks to KD back in Issue: Early Single Digits. 

I still have so much fun with it. It's loud, feels epic hitting mobs with stone/crystal/magma fists and sledgehammers, I get two AoE KD's (one with an added stun that's a targeted, ranged AoE so I can get them on their asses before Knockback McChaos Spreaderson Teammate has a chance to fling them across my monitor and make the fight last 40 seconds longer than it has to) on relatively short CD's with ST attacks that have a Stun/KD (and one w/ a Hold) thrown in as well.  Throw Boulder is trash, but it's the easiest tanking around. I just cycle through the AoEs and Taunt watch my team melt stuff around me. It's almost relaxing...and LOUD! 😄 

Edited by synfoola
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On 8/28/2019 at 6:56 PM, synfoola said:

Can I ask why Stone Melee is at the bottom? I've had fun tanking with that melee set since the game went live, especially after they changed its KB attacks to KD back in Issue: Early Single Digits. 

I still have so much fun with it. It's loud, feels epic hitting mobs with stone/crystal/magma fists and sledgehammers, I get two AoE KD's (one with an added stun that's a targeted, ranged AoE so I can get them on their asses before Knockback McChaos Spreaderson Teammate has a chance to fling them across my monitor and make the fight last 40 seconds longer than it has to) on relatively short CD's with ST attacks that have a Stun/KD (and one w/ a Hold) thrown in as well.  Throw Boulder is trash, but it's the easiest tanking around. I just cycle through the AoEs and Taunt watch my team melt stuff around me. It's almost relaxing...and LOUD! 😄 

IMO Stone Melee is a great set, the only drawback is that it's quite end heavy, something that's problematic until your build matures.  Back on Live my namesake was an Invuln/Stone tanker that I played from issue 3 until shutdown.  Fault's a great opener/aggro getter, then when they stand back up Tremor knocks 'em down again, then start clobbering mobs with Heavy Mallet/Seismic Smash.  I usually skipped Stone Mallet and took Fire Blast/Fire Ball from the epic pools to round out the chain.  In the earlier going Stone Fist works as a filler; later on it's less important.  Taunt is, of course, highly useful for any tanker and a great place for cheap IO sets with good bonuses (Perfect Zinger/Mocking Beratement)

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Adding Radiation Armor to Above average tier.

Im running a rad/rad tank anf its easy to get all the res to 90% (cold being the toughest to max) but it lacks actual defense without adding tough & weave. Its mostly toggles so you need to keep an eye on endurance during long battles (especially if you solo alot). Quality toggle taunt/-to hit/-def toggle and a click heal/taunt power helps you hold crowds once you get an AoE.

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I have no idea how Invulnerability can be considered an average set.  Not only does it ave really good resists but it also has rather good defense as well. With just IO's, Tough and Weave Invul caps S/L resist and comes to about 31% defense with just 5 targets in range.

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Invulnerability is stupid good for Tankers. 

Katana is really good, due to the high damage and high Defense from Divine Avalanche. 

I think any set with Parry would be in a higher tier.

 

Super Strength is always top tier, unless Rage gets a nerf.  Stone Melee is pretty decent (due to the aforementioned KB > KD enhancements)

 

Fiery Aura is great for farming.  Can it be used for all-round Tanking?  It used to be not so hot for that.

 

Dual Blades is bottom tier,  Staff also, due to very low damage, but it has Parry, so maybe Average. 

 

Shield Defense lacks Resist.  It might leave you high and dry being mostly Defense.  You would need to take Tough and Resilient Incarnate to make up for it. 

 

 

 

Edited by IronJuke

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49 minutes ago, IronJuke said:

Shield Defense lacks Resist.  It might leave you high and dry being mostly Defense.  You would need to take Tough and Resilient Incarnate to make up for it. 

 

 

 

I would disagree with your point on resistance with the exception of energy/negative resistance.  

 

With the complete availability of all IO's now you can patch several holes in most any set to a certain degree.  For Sd I was able to achieve around 60% en/ne res while still achieving 3300 hp, 345% regen, and 165% global recharge.  This is including T4 Vigor and 2 stacks of the tank +res from the ATO, to which can be easily maintained.

 

80%sm/l, 60% en/ne coupled with at minimum soft capped defense (m/r/aoe) and about 66.6 ddr is enough tank just about tank most if not all content.  Maybe not to the same level of other more defensive sets, but what you gain in offense and utility is the natural trade off.

 

I've found sd shines brightest when utilizing several 3 set bonuses throughout your primary/defensive toggles.  3 piece bonuses usually contain either a form of resistance, Regen, or hp.  5 3-piece sets of shield wall is worth 50% Regen and 11.25% max hp for example.

Edited by Bronana16969
Sp/grm
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That's good to know!  I was struggling with SD on my Brute.  Obviously a Tanker will do better, but that stacking Shield Wall would probably help.

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What's wrong with your list is that it's for scrappers, not tankers. Tankers have a different focus, otherwise they'd be brutes

Primaries:
Indefatiguable- Invulnerability, Radiation armor, Dark Armor
Above Average- Stone Armor, electric armor, shield defense, Bio armor
Average- Ice armor, Willpower, Fiery Aura
Needs a rework- Super reflexes.

Unlike Brutes and scrappers, Tankers have THREE separate factors that need to be considered. First and foremost is Damage management... Not just for yourself, but for your team as well. Obviously personal survival is slightly more emphasized, since a dead tanker cannot protect anyone, but team damage management is only slightly less important. Secondly There is continuing utility, meaning stuff that helps you stay in a fight as long as possible like endurance management as well as how 'convenient' the set is to use... Sets that require constant management, complicated keybinds, and lots of 'click this not to die' lose some team utility due to attention split away from damage menagement. Third, and distantly last, is soloing/damage maximization. This is NOT a primary criteria, but it does weigh in on a set's utility in general. Great damage for a tanker is still great damage "FOR A TANKER". that Blaster you are protecting is going to be able to dish out vastly more than you no matter how awesome your personal damage output is.

Secondaries, contrariwise, cannot be weighed in a vacuum like that. While TW is indisputably top-tier in both damage and utility, it's endurance and unweidly mechanics can dramatically REDUCE the value of some highly rated primaries. Some low performers can also boost an otherwise mediocre primary into being top-tier if they are used effectively... Icey Melee, for example, while definitely low-damage, can dramatically boost both the damage management of firey aura as well as it's team utility and survivability.

To be blunt, the chart is simply a poor substitute for a listing of primaries and secondaries paired together with synergies, and I truly hope that someone who is relatively new and interested in playing a tanker doesn't simply fish from the list expecting to be a good by picking from your extremely subjective 'top tiers'. Bio/TW, for example, is probably the tanker combo abandoned most often in their early 20's, and if I got a WP/MA on my team, I'd follow the dominator instead.

Edited by Frostweaver
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55 minutes ago, Frostweaver said:

What's wrong with your list is that it's for scrappers, not tankers. Tankers have a different focus, otherwise they'd be brutes

Primaries:
Indefatiguable- Invulnerability, Radiation armor, Dark Armor
Above Average- Stone Armor, electric armor, shield defense, Bio armor
Average- Ice armor, Willpower, Fiery Aura
Needs a rework- Super reflexes.

Unlike Brutes and scrappers, Tankers have THREE separate factors that need to be considered. Firs and foremost is Damage management... Not just for yourself, but for your team as well. Obviously personal survival is slightly more emphasized, since a dead tanker cannot protect anyone, but team damage management is only slightly less important. Secondly There is continuing utility, meaning stuff that helps you stay in a fight as long as possible like endurance management as well as how 'convenient' the set is to use... Sets that require constant management, complicated keybinds, and lots of 'click this not to die' lose some team utility due to attention split away from damage menagement. Third, and distantly last, is soloing/damage maximization. This is NOT a primary criteria, but it does weigh in on a set's utility in general. Great damage for a tanker is still great damage "FOR A TANKER". that Blaster you are protecting is going to be able to dish out vastly more than you no matter how awesome your personal damage output is.

Secondaries, contrariwise, cannot be weighed in a vacuum like that. While TW is indisputably top-tier in both damage and utility, it's endurance and unweidly mechanics can dramatically REDUCE the value of some highly rated primaries. Some low performers can also boost an otherwise mediocre primary into being top-tier if they are used effectively... Icey Melee, for example, while definitely low-damage, can dramatically boost both the damage management of firey aura as well as it's team utility.

To be blunt, the chart is simply a poor substitute for a listing of primaries and secondaries paired together with synergies, and I truly hope that someone who is relatively new and interested in playing a tanker doesn't simply fish from the list expecting to be a good by picking from your extremely subjective 'top tiers'. Bio/TW, for example, is probably the tanker combo abandoned most often in their early 20's, and if I got a WP/MA on my team, I'd follow the dominator instead.

Haha! We ALL follow the dominator!

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Let's put it this way. I made a character back in Champions, PnP, called Undestroyable Thing. (based off another player's undestroyable thing). He used every trick in the book... triple armor piercing resistance, insane levels of damage reduction, knockback immunity, damage immunities, as well as every cost-reducing measure you could imagine to bring it all down to 250 points... massive weaknesses, staged activation rolls, multipowers, Elemental controls, package deals, etc ad infinatum. I literally had 3 sheets of notebook paper covered with all the special limitations and powers he possessed to be unkillable. Two of those powers filled a page each.
At 250 points, he could stand toe-to-toe with Doctor Destroyer, Mulch Menton, and make Hellstorm look like the fool he is. Only the 'blind deaf crippled guy at the center of the universe with the planet destroying ray and endless range that requires 16 activation rolls and only works at the center of the universe' could even dent him.
His value to the team was precisely Zero. Why? because despite his personal one-punch man combat style and godzillaesque physique, He couldn't make enemies fight him. he couldn't catch them, and they relentlessly proceeded to turn the rest of the team into Hamburger while he stood there, magnificently immortal and untouchable, and easily avoided.

If you don't bring more to the team than just unkillability, crappy tanker damage, and the occasional taunt to peel off 5 or so minions, you aren't playing a Tanker. You would probably have more fun playing something much more dangerous and letting someone who actually cares about damage management and being the rock around which the rest of the team is anchored play tanker instead.
 

Edited by Frostweaver
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On ‎9‎/‎25‎/‎2019 at 4:25 AM, Frostweaver said:

Indefatiguable- Invulnerability, Radiation armor, Dark Armor
Above Average- Stone Armor, electric armor, shield defense, Bio armor
Average- Ice armor, Willpower, Fiery Aura
Needs a rework- Super reflexes.

I agree with Frostweaver's selection of Primaries.  I think weapon sets don't matter as much for tankers, so there's really not much point in rating them. 

Some do a bit more damage.  Some are bad unless slotted to change KB to Knockdown.  Most have some kind of AoE.

Other than that it's more about your character concept than anything.

 

 

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I have to say that the primaries are difficult to rank because as the old adage goes, "one man's junk, is another man's treasure."

 

Some tanking sets are really overkill IMO, and ruin the gameplay of a character or do not provide good benefits outside of their tanking. So I'm going to rank them based upon their totality of what they can do and achieve beyond just mitigating damage alone.

 

Indefatigable  - Fiery Aura, Radiation Armor, Dark Armor, Shield Defense

Above Average - Electric, Bio Armor, Ice Armor

Average - WP, Invulnerability (I actually love invul as a primary for mitigating, but overall not my "favorite" outside this purpose)

Needs rework (or really doesn't but I personally don't like it) - Stone, Super Reflexes

 

Why? 

 

Fiery Aura is damned good, it's clearly not the frontrunner for mitigating damage, obviously, but it provides Burn, which is just miles ahead of any other tanking set in terms of sheer damage with the only one coming close being Shield Defense. Fiery Aura can still quite reliably cap S/L/E/N/F, which is great! While it provides no other major mitigating properties (like defense, regen, etc.) it is amazing for all the benefits it has. While others may "tank," Fiery Aura kills it before it becomes a problem. 

 

Radiation Armor is awesome as well! Awesome resistances all in the right places! You can always count on capping quite a few really needed resistances with this set, along with it providing wonderful debuffs and its T8 being wonderful for some extra damage output! Definitely tankier than FA, less damaging, but this is definitely the one you tank LRSF with (although I still do this on FA!)

 

Dark Armor has all the right procs all the right things in all the right places with lots of resistance capping and defense. This is another excellent set, it provides damage, and lots of hard mitigations and even CC for teammates, very good set, excellent to work with, although end is an issue early on, it gets worked out with Ageless. 

 

Shield Defense is another favorite of mine although it normally "belongs" on stalkers and scrappers to me, I still quite like it for Tankers! It gives great damage with the damage buff taunt power and its T9 "mini nuke." Quite an impressive set actually, gives a host of good resistances once properly IO'd despite not quite meeting the cap on them, you don't necessarily have to! With the defenses on this, you're quite good!

 

--

 

Bio Armor I really like, it's a great set, really provides decent mitigation, but it is far more "micro managing" to get the best out of it than any other set sadly. Gives a damage aura (MAJOR plus!), great regen, even more damage for adaptations, and it really does allow you to go into "tank mode" with defensive. Great set, just don't like how "clicky" and situational it is.

 

Electric has 0 wrong with it, but it doesn't boast the same feats that the top performers do. It has a damage aura (always a plus), gives you excellent resistances, and some minor mitigation with the -end of the aura. This set is not bad at all, it just isn't anything "awe worthy" in my opinion but it really is quite nice. Great set overall, does what it does, and it excels.

 

Ice Armor (Frostweaver pointed some things out) is great for a variety of reasons and is surprisingly effective. While it is not as damaging as the top performers nor does it offer the resistances or same amount of caps, it does offer a great agro sustain, maximum HP, excellent DDR, lots of defenses, and it does mitigate damage for teammates with CE. I believe it is an underdog set. 

 

--

 

Willpower is still a great set, arguably one of the best ones early game, however it suffers largely due to being "outclassed" by Bio Armor in most regards. The regen it gives is roughly the same, I just can't get behind this one and it just doesn't give "enough" towards the end for me to *love* it, it becomes very average towards the end but still decent.

 

Invulnerability is an AMAZING damage mitigating set. so it won't cap as many as Rad or Dark, but it will come extremely close, with tons of health, and lots of defense, with lots of debuff resistance, the only hole being psionics. The only reason this isn't "above average" or "indef" is it lacks a damage aura, and doesn't give lots of additional bells and whistles beyond damage mitigating. This set does not provide CC or damage buffs or a damage aura, otherwise this would be in the top category. I certainly put this above Willpower and SR (see below) any day, and I really think if it just had more beyond damage mitigation it would be at the very top. However, because it doesn't, I put it as "average."

 

--

 

Stone Armor... this is controversial, but despite it's decent mitigation, this set is just not able to upkeep anymore. It is slow. Yes it can do the job, but if it takes 2-3x longer, why would you? This is the "ultimate" tank, but it loses pretty hard in actual gameplay. While a decent set otherwise, just loses so much effectiveness in its current state with how harsh the penalty for movement is and the heavy restrictions. Yes I'm fully aware you can get around it with teleport and turning granite on/off, but that just gets so annoying and you really have to build around its weaknesses to get it going. I just think this set has lost its place in the current meta beyond being a tank which I think is something easily achieved by other sets or party buffs for activities that require it.

 

Super Reflexes gives nothing that I want in a tanker at all. Defense is not what I normally want for a tanker, also, it lacks resistances quite heavily even with scaling, yes, nothing will hit you, however, there's lots of "auto hits" in this game and this set can just screw you the wrong way. This is just not my favorite at all. There's no damage aura, there's no additional mitigation. No extra "bells and whistles," the recharge it gives does not make up for the lost damage, and IMO is outclassed in so many regards for tankers. This set is MUCH better on Sentinels/Stalkers/Scrappers.

Edited by 3333053222
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I struggle to recall which came first in terms of flouting conventional wisdom. Having taken a Rad/Psi Tanker to 50, I think it was hearing all the bashing of Super Reflexes which prompted me to plan an SR tanker to begin with and that having gone down that road I decided to go whole hog and pair Titan Weapon with it. It is a work in progress, with me having quickly worked him into his 40s before getting distracted and letting him languish. So I cannot speak to end game tanking on him. I can speak to how it was getting there and what I plan on aiming for. 

 

Capping Defenses is trivial using SR. Slot SOs in your defensive powers and you are pretty close. On a resistance based set it would be like slotting SOs and being at 80% resistance--close enough that sneezing would cap you. So the question becomes what to layer on top of that.

 

Resistance is the obvious thing to look at, but unlike the case playing a resistance based set and looking to layer defenses, there is a lot more ground to cover trying to build up resistance than there is when trying to build up defense. SR has scaling resistance baked in. You get 1:1 resistance for every percent your life is under 60%. There is also the Reactive Defenses special IO which gives 3-13% scaling resistance which scales from full life downward. Obviously there is Toughness, which gives a base 15% (smashing/lethal).


Also I have tried out absorption shields available via the ATO and Preventive Medicine. Neither is playstyle altering in terms of impact, but even so I am leaning towards loading up on Health to get the most out of them.

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