Pylon Damage Thread

[Obitus]

If psi damage is unresisted by the Pylon, then a pure-psi character with that time would have scored ~290 DPS.  Of course, Psi melee's attacks appear to mix damage types, so the 290 number isn't quite realistic either; it represents the lower bound, with Kaeladin's being the higher bound.  Still, if 368 was a sad result, then the reality is probably a good bit sadder.

 

Tossing a power analyzer on a pylon reveals 20% resistance to all (including psi and toxic). Not sure if this was an update at some point, but it might at least save a little face to what psi melee has.

 

Ah, good to know (and good for Psi!).  I'll tell ya, coming back to this game after seven years sometimes makes me question whether I'm senile.  Appreciate the correction, and your ongoing testing/commentary in this thread.

[Kaeladin]

Beta Server (Justin)

 

Broad Sword/Bio Armor Scrapper

 

T4 Musculature Core Paragon

T4 Reactive Radial Flawless Interface

T4 Ageless Core Epiphany

T4 Assault Radial Embodiment (I did not use the clicky/toggle on any tests; just the passive damage bonus)

 

Offensive Adaptation

No outside buffs, no recovery serum, no inspirations. Strictly just what my character has.

 

"Broadsword, what is best in life?

 

To crush the pylon, see it blow up before you, and hear the lamentation of the Rikti."

 

Credit: the_timepants

 

After indulging in the hedonism of youthful, experimental (and perhaps unpolished) sets of some days prior, I decided to go back to the roots of 2004 and hit up an original; it's broad sword time!

 

I'll be frank; I didn't expect much from broad sword. From a DPA perspective + examining its rotation on my spreadsheet, I saw it an inferior version of katana. It required more recharge than katana to pull off what was essentially an identical rotation (due to Hack being the primary "filler" move, while also being the set's highest DPA move, but also having a much higher base recharge). Its AOE kit was worse in DPA than katana's; in short, I came in expecting suboptimal performance from broad sword.

 

So how did it do?

 

How I started every attempt: Hasten + Ageless (prepull stage) - Begin timer as soon as I hit Build Up

 

Attempts with following rotation: Hack - Head Splitter - Hack - Disembowel - repeat

 

Attempt 1: 2:27 = 393.65

Attempt 2: 2:49 = 359.70

Attempt 3: 1:59 = 455.03

Attempt 4: 2:09 = 430.05

Attempt 5: 2:24 = 399.09

Attempt 6: 2:12 = 423.30

Attempt 7: 2:05 = 439.56

Attempt 8: 2:25 = 397.25

 

Better than I expected!

 

I will say, this massive variance aside, that there's a few notes about this particular set that favored this type of testing condition:

 

1) Similar to katana, broad sword can fit in two -res procs which helps is greatly in this sustained ST DPS fight (in fact its slotting was almost identical to katana)

 

2) Unlike katana (which requires a much more moderate level of recharge and doesn't benefit at all from ageless), Hack requires a LARGE amount of recharge in order to achieve "gapless"; for a normal bio armor character, you won't normally achieve this. But any recharge beyond what I have within my typical global loadout helps; ageless provides this and therefore provides a "boost" to broad sword's damage in this situation

 

3) I still do believe katana is a strictly superior version of broad sword in all the important categories (both in ST and AOE), but broad sword's ST damage is nothing to sneeze at.

 

In any case, if you like a big (but not titanic) sword to go with your bowl of plain cheerios, broad sword just might be your thing!

 

Gooo...Hack?

[Machariel]

I think I saw arcanaville say that the -res procs work by causing the target to cast the debuff onto themselves, and it doesn't stack with "casts from the same caster", but I wonder if two different -res procs could work simultaneously by providing two "different" debuffs?

[marcussmythe]

Being interested in intra-AT performance on specific sets (Notably TW on Brute and Tank) I set out to get a baseline for TW/Bio SCRAPPER, so I would have a basis of comparison when I took out a drive on TW/Bio Brute, Tank, etc.

 

That said, execution matters, playstyle matters, and so to get a baseline I duplicated Kael's TW/Bio Build and set out to see what I could do with it - if Im going to be driving the Brutes and Tanks, I need to know what -I- can do with TW, so I have a basis for comparison.

 

First Im going to attach below Kaledin's times on his Tier 4 TW/Bio Scrapper

1:35 = 531.430 DPS

1:35 = 531.430 DPS

1:29 = 558.641 DPS

1:27 = 568.545 DPS

1:25 = 578.915 DPS

1:20 = 607.109 DPS

1:03 = 736.443 DPS

1:03 = 736.443 DPS

 

Now my own, on the exact same build:

1:51

1:45

1:45

1:43

1:43

1:40

1:40

1:39

1:31

1:30

1:28

1:28

1:24

1:22

1:20 (607 DPS)

 

The gentle reader will notice that my times fell outside the bounds of his at the top (more than half my runs were worse than his 1:35 worst) and that my 'best' run was a 1:20 - a full 17 seconds and 136 DPS behind his 'best' runs.

 

Not sure what the takeway is, save that the player matters, execution matters, and that I was struggling with priority on TW the whole time - even knowing the 'ideal' rotation, I kept having to prioritize between 'swinging away now' and 'wait less than 1 second to get back into the right rotation', not to mention the oddity of whether to trigger Build Momentum the split second it came up, or to wait a half second or more to make my Build Momentum line up better with the rest of the rotation.

 

My second takeaway is that if I want to compare Intra-AT performance, maybe I should do it on a Mace.  :)

 

EDIT:

Titan/Bioarmor Brute

2:58

2:55

2:53

2:34

2:30

2:30

2:07 (442 DPS)

 

Build is a mirror to the Scrapper in every way that matters.  Better times were a matter of carrying more Fury into the fight.. 2:07 was a very smooth run with about 60% Fury coming in.

 

Looks like the TW/Bio Brute loses about a quarter of the TW/Bio Scrappers DPS... which doesnt seem out of line, but really undermines my predictions above.

[Kaeladin]

Beta Server (Justin)

 

Battle Axe/Bio Armor Scrapper

T4 Musculature Core Paragon

T4 Reactive Radial Flawless Interface

T4 Ageless Core Epiphany

T4 Assault Radial Embodiment (I did not use the clicky/toggle on any tests; just the passive damage bonus)

 

Offensive Adaptation

No outside buffs, no recovery serum, no inspirations. Strictly just what my character has.

 

"Give me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe."

Abraham Lincoln

After finishing my late night snack of plain toast and a glass of milk, I decided to continue onward with another classic; time to grind the axe!

 

The first word that comes to mind, from both a numerical and aesthetic perspective of battle axe, is "Average." In every sense of the word, it is neither greatly lacking in, or excelling in, any of the areas of melee damage and efficiency. To me, battle axe (for scrapper) defines the midpoint of all sets in terms of its characteristics. However, average is not bad! And in the right hands, an "average" weapon can still do a "great" job in City of Heroes given that this game does not require "meta" picks at all to do well.

 

So how does my definition of "average" do?

 

How I started every attempt: Hasten + Ageless (prepull stage) - Begin timer as soon as I hit Build Up

 

Attempts with following rotation: Gash - Swoop - Chop - Gash - Swoop - Cleave - repeat

 

Attempt 1: 2:15 = 416.84

Attempt 2: 2:09 = 430.05

Attempt 3: 2:41 = 370.97

Attempt 4: 1:59 = 455.03

Attempt 5: 2:25 = 397.25

Attempt 6: 2:16 = 414.75

Attempt 7: 2:20 = 406.70

 

Not too shabby!

 

One nice feature of battle axe is that A) you can put a -res proc into Cleave (which definitely helped for this testing) and B) it has access to Pendulum, which is quite similar to War Mace's Crowd Control (a great 180 degree arc attack). It actually does more DPA than CC but at the cost of slightly less range (8 vs. 7).

 

After testing these two weapons, I'm going to go back at some point to retest Martial Arts as I think it was the one with the smallest sample and I "think" it could have done more damage than what I saw. I'll look at my slotting for its attacks to see what I can improve, if anything.

 

Chop, chop!

[Bill Z Bubba]

2:17 with a Martial Arts/Fire scrapper PvE Build (not pylon specific).  DPS of ~407

 

Tier 3 musculature / tier 3 degen/ tier 3 ageless / tier 3 +dmg hybrid.

 

Could everyone please state WHICH T3 or T4 you're using?

 

I just crafted a T3 degen (best time with t4 reactive (75% debuff/25% fire)  is 3:23. Time with t3 degen (75% chance -max hp) is 3:30 on my claws/sr.

 

Should I have gone the other way on the degen? DoT over -HP?

[Sir Myshkin]

Given that the -Res procs aren't team-stackable, I think they're a little overrated.  Or rather the capacity to slot Res procs in a given set's attack chain is a little overrated.  They help a lot in Pylon tests, and when soloing AVs, but in general play the Res procs are unlikely to provide much in the way of noticeable benefit.  There's a solid chance that they'll be redundant in high-end teams, even against extremely hard targets (either because teammates are already using the -Res procs specifically, or because the hard target's been debuffed into the stone age generally.)

 

An excellent point, and this is also one of the reasons why the high DPS sets even without -res procs (e.g. Martial Arts, Fiery Melee, Ice Melee) are still pretty strong because of what actual damage they can output in a real gameplay setting. Pylons are fun to beat up, but they should be taken with some measure of caution (and for fun observations, particularly about how the sets actually operate e.g. psi melee). A combination of sustained ST DPS, "feeling the sets out" in a general gameplay setting, and spreadsheet data (which I'm still working on finishing mine) can be used in combination to draw some reasonable conclusions about how the sets are doing.

 

And at the end of the day, concept + a good build supercedes raw potential numbers, from my perspective. Much as I will continue to emphasize, and discuss, the numerical aspects of the game, we each define what is our version of "fun" and actualize it to the best of our abilities. This data can simply help us make more informed decisions and comparisons, when called for.

 

Play what's fun is the call-out of the day, for sure!

 

And for the sake of backing the general concept that's floated across multiple posts in regards to the procs, and in agreeing with Kaeladin's point on when, and where to place them: Yes I dropped them into Irradiated Grounds, but some rule of thumb(s) come about from it--It drops a pet every 5/s, if I leave one mob and go to the next, I could randomly disperse that pet along the way, also I'm mowing the mobs so fast in the first place that the likelihood of that proc mattering is very little, those procs purely exist for heavy targets and stationary targets that I have an opportunity to park with for more than 5/s.

 

Use them, they're great, they'll definitely improve your potential, and your team's potential (if no one else has them, or another debuff going on), but just like Water Spout causes chaos in normal missions, the procs aren't a final end-note and aren't likely to have an impact on 80% of your game play. :)

[Sir Myshkin]

Not sure what the takeway is, save that the player matters, execution matters, and that I was struggling with priority on TW the whole time - even knowing the 'ideal' rotation, I kept having to prioritize between 'swinging away now' and 'wait less than 1 second to get back into the right rotation', not to mention the oddity of whether to trigger Build Momentum the split second it came up, or to wait a half second or more to make my Build Momentum line up better with the rest of the rotation.

 

Get your chain down and stick to it, even with BU effects, know in advance when and where they NEED to land, and keep them landing there. Also go into your options settings and turn on the actual timer display for cool downs. I did this recently and it helped me nail consistent patterns on my Radiation runs. I was able to see in real-time exactly when my BU was coming, my Hasten, etc, so I could drop it in the right places during my attack chain without being surprised. I also allowed me to que BU even though it hadn't "popped" yet, I knew in .2/s it was coming up so I could prep and be right on the trigger every time. It may not seem like it'd make such a big difference, but execution of the player can easily see one person getting 2:00, and another getting 2:30.

[marcussmythe]

Not sure what the takeway is, save that the player matters, execution matters, and that I was struggling with priority on TW the whole time - even knowing the 'ideal' rotation, I kept having to prioritize between 'swinging away now' and 'wait less than 1 second to get back into the right rotation', not to mention the oddity of whether to trigger Build Momentum the split second it came up, or to wait a half second or more to make my Build Momentum line up better with the rest of the rotation.

 

Get your chain down and stick to it, even with BU effects, know in advance when and where they NEED to land, and keep them landing there. Also go into your options settings and turn on the actual timer display for cool downs. I did this recently and it helped me nail consistent patterns on my Radiation runs. I was able to see in real-time exactly when my BU was coming, my Hasten, etc, so I could drop it in the right places during my attack chain without being surprised. I also allowed me to que BU even though it hadn't "popped" yet, I knew in .2/s it was coming up so I could prep and be right on the trigger every time. It may not seem like it'd make such a big difference, but execution of the player can easily see one person getting 2:00, and another getting 2:30.

 

You are absolutely correct.  I also need to spend a bit more time with each power, getting a better feel for the animation time and DPA of each.  I dont think I can push the Scrapper version much lower, but consistency is a thing.

 

Im more interested in the trade-offs between various melee ATs.  My earlier predictions were proven off, at least inasmuch as I based them off the ~700 number that was the best time Kaledin got, and some over-optimisitc assumptions about Fury.  Im going to guess that 450ish is probably gonna be hard for le to beat on TW/Bio Brute,  and thus about 350ish as a rough ceiling for me for TW/??? Brute - maybe a bit higher as Offensive Adaptation contributes less on a Brute than a Scrapper (lower base values, fury, lower Offensive Adaptation contribution)

 

Its too late to test tonite, but I intend to get some TW/Invuln Brute numbers tomorrow.  I loved Invuln first, and I want a better feeling for what it gives up in damage out as compared to Bio (which I also love)

[Gaidin]

Looks like the TW/Bio Brute loses about a quarter of the TW/Bio Scrappers DPS... which doesnt seem out of line, but really undermines my predictions above.

 

Fist, I want to thank you for the time and effort you've invested into this particular comparison, as well as Kaeladin's contributions.

 

I played beta to right before Incarnates dropped, so I've no experience with the new powersets and the info you fine folk are providing is much appriciated by this min/maxxer. 

 

My forum namesake was a BS/WP scrapper on live, but when Torchbearer first came online, I re-made him as a TW/Bio Brute, since I also didn't play Brutes much back on Live and wanted to try new stuff.  I haven't finished leveling him and I'm having Scrapper-remorse, as Scrappers have always been my favorite AT.

 

Presumably, you've only tooled around in the two TW/Bio ATs for pylons, but what would your impression be of the survivability between the two?  Do you find the Scrappers extra DPS and not having to worry about building Fury a fair trade for the higher resistance cap, higher Regen rate/HP pool and inherent taunt?

 

[marcussmythe]

First:  Kael’s doing most of the heavy lifting - Im mostly commentating and mathing.

 

Ive not done apples:apples comparisons.  For Bio, the brute has to build for that resist advantage - and this isnt free.  Brutes have only a small advantage in base HP, though much higher caps - again, you have to pay for this if you want to chase it.

 

That said - the Brute has a better taunt, and if the team can buff them, can absorb more buffs to damage, resistance, and HPs.

 

I really think if you intend to group, and have Tanking be a -job- when in a group, go Brute, due to better tools.  Youll still solo appallingly well for a ‘Tank’.  If you dont have as much interest in tanking, Id go scrapper, because though I think the damage advantage ‘in the wild’ will be smaller than I got on Pylons (Pylon conditions favor crits and disfavor fury), its going to always be a substantial one.  Otoh, of you want the damage, Im pretty sure a Bioarmor Scrapper in Purple Country will tank anything just fine.

 

TLDR:  They are close enough and flexible enough that its really personal preference.  A Scrapper in Defense Adaptation is probably tougher than a Brute in Offensive, so play what sounds more fun.  Or level both to 50, IO them out equally, and tell us what you think.

[Sir Myshkin]

2:17 with a Martial Arts/Fire scrapper PvE Build (not pylon specific).  DPS of ~407

 

Tier 3 musculature / tier 3 degen/ tier 3 ageless / tier 3 +dmg hybrid.

 

Could everyone please state WHICH T3 or T4 you're using?

 

I just crafted a T3 degen (best time with t4 reactive (75% debuff/25% fire)  is 3:23. Time with t3 degen (75% chance -max hp) is 3:30 on my claws/sr.

 

Should I have gone the other way on the degen? DoT over -HP?

 

If you want maximum Single Target killing power, T4 Degenerative Core (-75% MaxHP). This is the optimal choice against specifically hard targets where the stacks can matter (potentially some longer-lasting bosses, but primarily EB/AV/Monster/GM). Anything sub boss level, Interface (in general) doesn't really matter because its likelihood of impacting Minions/Lieuts/Most Bosses, is minimal regardless of whether DoT/Debuff route.

 

 

 

 

[Sir Myshkin]

6:05 - 232 <-- Got KB a lot

5:43 - 239 <-- Ran again cause, KB sucks even when you have 7pts against it

5:12 - 250 <-- Got bombarded by Drop Ship, activated DR just once, and ended up with a best time? Strange!

5:28 - 244 <-- Ran another because the last time was stupid different

5:20 - 247 <-- Now I'm jealous of the 5:12, what the hell

5:51 - 237 <-- So it looks like this is what happens when you miss DB enough

5:08 - 252 <-- And this is apparently what it looks like when you run perfect, my last run breaker cause I was 3 v 3 on two sides of the spectrum

 

I did some more testing (now that Test is back online) with Rad/DA. I quoted out my previous runs for comparison, I didn't go as extensive this time around because I kept getting repeatedly swiped by the Dropship tonight and it kinda irritated me enough that I quit running Pylons. Getting triple-hit while in the middle of Devestating Blow and dying was... super frustrating.

 

Changed a couple of things in the routine. I removed Achilles from CS altogether. Irradiated Ground now contains both -20% Res Procs. I added Radioactive Smash into the build so I could test with it, but also have Devastating Blow available. I robbed a few random slots from non-impacting-performance defensive sets to do this. I wanted a more clear picture of Radioactive versus Proton Sweep. I am still convinced that Radiation Siphon is worth keeping in the chain because of its guaranteed contamination proc when it consumes Contamination and is the only time I see a consistent activation of the Contaminated proc effect, and typically occurs 2/3 rotations, best average, and if DB doesn't manage to create Contamination immediately after Siphon, both Siphon and DB will have a chance to apply it each in the following cycle.

 

Same speculations as before, T4 Core Musculature, Core Degen, Core Assault (Passive Only), Core Ageless (Purely for Rech)

 

5:01 (255) // 4:47 (261) - Using the same chain as I was before (CS > PS > RSiph > DB), as mentioned, all I changed was where the procs came from.

5:19 (248)* // 4:43 (263) - Cycled out PS and placed in RSmash** using its same slotting

 

* KB'd 3 or 4 times, plus several noticeable misses on Devastating Blow. It was pretty... *ahem* Devastating.

**I ended up with about a .5/s gap in this chain so I ended up cycling in an extra CS because I... really didn't have a choice. I used that extra CS gap for BU, Hasten when it was due, and when Ageless was up I dropped both CS out and just cycled RSmash > RSiph > DB.

 

These following time tests were done first just as a curiosity. I ran CS > RSmash > RSiphon. I had started one Pylon with PS in the chain as well, but I noticed how dramatically slow it was going so I pulled PS out and noticed a significant increase, so these two times are after that.

 

4:58 (256) // 4:53 (258) - These are the only two tests I've run at all with Radiation Melee that have been this close to each other. Also want to note that these two times are better than any time I achieved before the proc move, and are very close to the times I've gotten (so far) post proc move with chains including Devastating Blow in them. This chain is also exclusively focused on Radiation Siphon being the biggest hitting attack of the three, is actively consuming contaminated, and is still producing a DPS that might prove to be more functionally consistent than a DB inclusive chain.

 

My intention hadn't been to remove Proton Sweep for the cone, but given that it doesn't spread Contaminated (not ST attack), and it is definitely appearing to be an inferior choice to Radioactive Smash, I think I might be performing another Respec on Public.

 

Limited runs, but best time so far has been with Smash/DB Inclusive, sans PS chain at 4:43, but two runs with wild variance (36 second spread). CS>Smash>Siphon however has been the only time I've gotten two relatively back-to-back times at only five seconds apart, and only a 10/s offset from the DB chain (which at these times is only 5 DPS difference).

 

I have a feeling that Radiation Melee may be secretly built on the same principle that Kinetic Melee was with its early-tier attacks versus its top choice T8/9. If anyone else has a Rad to throw at it, I'm proposing CS > Smash > Siphon as the "optimal" (consistent) chain, and CS > Smash > Siphon > DB as the "peak" (but high risk with misses) chain. I'm about ~20 Pylons in to this test now (13 posted, 3 other failed attempts recorded on my post-it, and about 4-5 Dropship death-failed-attempts) that's giving me a lot of swing info on this.

[Sirion]

2:17 with a Martial Arts/Fire scrapper PvE Build (not pylon specific).  DPS of ~407

 

Tier 3 musculature / tier 3 degen/ tier 3 ageless / tier 3 +dmg hybrid.

 

Could everyone please state WHICH T3 or T4 you're using?

 

I just crafted a T3 degen (best time with t4 reactive (75% debuff/25% fire)  is 3:23. Time with t3 degen (75% chance -max hp) is 3:30 on my claws/sr.

 

Should I have gone the other way on the degen? DoT over -HP?

 

If you want maximum Single Target killing power, T4 Degenerative Core (-75% MaxHP). This is the optimal choice against specifically hard targets where the stacks can matter (potentially some longer-lasting bosses, but primarily EB/AV/Monster/GM). Anything sub boss level, Interface (in general) doesn't really matter because its likelihood of impacting Minions/Lieuts/Most Bosses, is minimal regardless of whether DoT/Debuff route.

 

I've heard this preference stated before, but I don't quite get why - I must be misunderstanding how the max hp debuff proc plays out. Can you explain why this outperforms the Reactive -res and moderate fire proc?

 

 

 

 

[marcussmythe]

2:17 with a Martial Arts/Fire scrapper PvE Build (not pylon specific).  DPS of ~407

 

Tier 3 musculature / tier 3 degen/ tier 3 ageless / tier 3 +dmg hybrid.

 

Could everyone please state WHICH T3 or T4 you're using?

 

I just crafted a T3 degen (best time with t4 reactive (75% debuff/25% fire)  is 3:23. Time with t3 degen (75% chance -max hp) is 3:30 on my claws/sr.

 

Should I have gone the other way on the degen? DoT over -HP?

 

If you want maximum Single Target killing power, T4 Degenerative Core (-75% MaxHP). This is the optimal choice against specifically hard targets where the stacks can matter (potentially some longer-lasting bosses, but primarily EB/AV/Monster/GM). Anything sub boss level, Interface (in general) doesn't really matter because its likelihood of impacting Minions/Lieuts/Most Bosses, is minimal regardless of whether DoT/Debuff route.

 

I've heard this preference stated before, but I don't quite get why - I must be misunderstanding how the max hp debuff proc plays out. Can you explain why this outperforms the Reactive -res and moderate fire proc?

 

The reasoning is that by lowering the targets maximum hit points, you lower its regeneration per tic.  Also, a small % reduction in maximum hit points is essentially 'bonus damage' in the initial stages against a very hard target.

 

I've not done side by side testing, but the idea that lowering the hit point regen of the target makes it easier to get 'real damage' past its regen makes sense.

 

In a vacuum, I would guess that -MaxHP looks its best in situations where you are barely breaking the targets health recovery, and the more damage you are putting out, the better the -RES proc becomes by comparison.  Id guess that a 1:07 run might not be improved, and might be harmed, by switching from 75% DoT/25% -RES to 75%-HP/25% DOT, and might be further improved by slotting 75%-Res/25% DoT - but thats guesswork, and the data is noisy enough that Id be surprised to see a clear winner

[StrikerFox]

Iirc, back during live, Reactive Radial was the best choice when pylon testing. Degenerative Core was second. Interface can only be stacked so many times, and was sort of a waste when every Tom, Dick and Harry; Peter, Paul and Mary had Reactive.

[Gaidin]

TLDR:  They are close enough and flexible enough that its really personal preference.  A Scrapper in Defense Adaptation is probably tougher than a Brute in Offensive, so play what sounds more fun.  Or level both to 50, IO them out equally, and tell us what you think.

 

Thanks for the input.  I tend to solo more than team due to extremely limited time to play, with the occasional duo with my wife or team with friends.  I think I'll re-roll Scrapper and see how survivable it is.

 

Kaeladin certainly is doing a lot of work,and I give him his due influence, but you still are taking the time to make multiple runs to make this particular dataset meaningful, so take your influence and like it!  :D

[Kaeladin]

Beta Server (Justin)

 

Martial Arts/Bio Armor Scrapper (Part 2)

 

T4 Musculature Core Paragon

T4 Reactive Radial Flawless Interface

T4 Ageless Core Epiphany

T4 Assault Radial Embodiment (I did not use the clicky/toggle on any tests; just the passive damage bonus)

 

Offensive Adaptation

No outside buffs, no recovery serum, no inspirations. Strictly just what my character has.

 

I only had a measly 3 attempts when I did Martial Arts last time. This time, to compensate, I wanted to provide a few more samples to the previous attempts + test a new condition (with a number of repetitions). So first off, let's continue from the last series of attempts I did.

 

How I started every attempt: Hasten + Ageless (prepull stage) - Begin timer as soon as I hit Build-Up.

 

Attempts with following rotation: Storm Kick - Crippling Axe Kick - Storm Kick - Cobra Strike - repeat.

 

(Old) 2:35 = 380.19

(Old) 2:26 = 395.44

(Old) 2:49 = 359.7

Attempt 4: 2:31 = 386.74

Attempt 5: 2:20 = 406.70

Attempt 6: 2:24 = 399.09

Attempt 7: 2:14 = 418.96

Attempt 8: 2:31 = 386.74

Attempt 9: 2:09 = 430.05

Attempt 10: 2:23 = 400.95

 

Much better! While times still tended to range a bit lower than the fiery melee times I posted, this was still a pretty respectable showing for another set that relied solely on raw DPA to prove its might.

 

Now, I mentioned a second condition earlier. Are you ready for this?

 

...Eagle's Claw.

 

Ok, stop. Put the pitchforks do...yes, you too! Drop it!

 

Here's the rationale:

 

Eagle's Claw is a long animating, mediocore (by MA standards) DPA move. However, there's one component of it that was pointed out to me in another thread (link here): https://forums.homecomingservers.com/index.php/topic,5692.0.html (towards the bottom of page 1)

 

Essentially, the idea is that Eagle's Claw provides a VERY short duration 33% increased crit chance buff to what is essentially your next move. For ST, this would ideally be storm kick. For AOE, this would be dragon's tail. Another way to think of this is that, statistically, Eagle's Claw provides (over many samples) a "33% damage increase" to Storm Kick. Unfortunately it's not quite the same consistency as, say, just multiplying the move by 1.33x, but over time the math should pan out over enough repetitions of the same condition.

 

In addition, Eagle's Claw has the highest PPM of your Superior Critical Strikes proc, and is therefore an ideal candidate to take the full set in theory. But how would this actually do in practice with a small sample?

 

Attempts with following rotation: Eagle's Claw - Storm Kick - Crippling Axe Kick - Storm Kick - repeat

 

Attempt 1: 2:19 (139) = 408.67

Attempt 2: 2:18 (138) = 410.67

Attempt 3: 2:26 (146) = 395.44

Attempt 4: 2:20 (140) = 406.70

Attempt 5: 2:23 (143) = 400.95

Attempt 6: 2:31 (151) = 386.74

Attempt 7: 1:59 (Didn't miss a single main attack!) (119) = 455.03

Attempt 8: 2:36 (I missed 6 SK, 1 CAX, and 3 EC) (156) = 378.61

Attempt 9: 2:25 (I missed 1 SK, 2 CAX, 2 EC) (145) = 397.25

Attempt 10: 2:18 (I missed 3 SK, 1 CAX, 1 EC) (138) = 410.67

 

Towards the latter attempts, I had the bright idea to start logging my parses to see how many attacks I missed in a given attempt in order to better explain time variance. And sure enough, the very first one I did was the one where I didn't miss a single one! What are the chances...

 

In any case, it's a pretty interesting comparison; at the very least, I think it shows that Martial Arts is capable of a bit more damage (especially given it's purely raw, no -res proc shenanigans) than I might have initially let on.

 

Gooo...Eagle's Claw? /Ducks

[Bill Z Bubba]

Iirc, back during live, Reactive Radial was the best choice when pylon testing. Degenerative Core was second. Interface can only be stacked so many times, and was sort of a waste when every Tom, Dick and Harry; Peter, Paul and Mary had Reactive.

 

Slotted BZB Scrap's T4 Degenerative (-hp/minor DoT) last night and got my best pylon time yet at 3:12 for 327 DPS. Woot. Now I just have to build a new T4 hybrid assault since I choose the incorrect dbltap +energy T4 instead of the big damage buff.

[Auroxis]

Did some Bane Spider runs on Justin:

 

Cardiac, Rebirth, Assault Hybrid (inactive) ~260 DPS

Cardiac, Rebirth, Assault Hybrid (activated when up) ~280 DPS

Musculature, Ageless, Assault Hybrid (activated when up) ~300 DPS

 

Not bad considering the build is contributing 60-80% -res to a team (venom grenade, surveillance, shatter armor, achilles' heel) and a bunch of tasty leadership buffs.

 

Click this DataLink to open the build!

 

 

[marcussmythe]

Being interested in intra-AT performance on specific sets (Notably TW on Brute and Tank) I set out to get a baseline for TW/Bio SCRAPPER, so I would have a basis of comparison when I took out a drive on TW/Bio Brute, Tank, etc.

 

That said, execution matters, playstyle matters, and so to get a baseline I duplicated Kael's TW/Bio Build and set out to see what I could do with it - if Im going to be driving the Brutes and Tanks, I need to know what -I- can do with TW, so I have a basis for comparison.

 

First Im going to attach below Kaledin's times on his Tier 4 TW/Bio Scrapper

1:35 = 531.430 DPS

1:35 = 531.430 DPS

1:29 = 558.641 DPS

1:27 = 568.545 DPS

1:25 = 578.915 DPS

1:20 = 607.109 DPS

1:03 = 736.443 DPS

1:03 = 736.443 DPS

 

Now my own, on the exact same build:

1:51

1:45

1:45

1:43

1:43

1:40

1:40

1:39

1:31

1:30

1:28

1:28

1:24

1:22

1:20 (607 DPS)

 

The gentle reader will notice that my times fell outside the bounds of his at the top (more than half my runs were worse than his 1:35 worst) and that my 'best' run was a 1:20 - a full 17 seconds and 136 DPS behind his 'best' runs.

 

Not sure what the takeway is, save that the player matters, execution matters, and that I was struggling with priority on TW the whole time - even knowing the 'ideal' rotation, I kept having to prioritize between 'swinging away now' and 'wait less than 1 second to get back into the right rotation', not to mention the oddity of whether to trigger Build Momentum the split second it came up, or to wait a half second or more to make my Build Momentum line up better with the rest of the rotation.

 

My second takeaway is that if I want to compare Intra-AT performance, maybe I should do it on a Mace.  :)

 

EDIT:

Titan/Bioarmor Brute

2:58

2:55

2:53

2:34

2:30

2:30

2:07 (442 DPS)

 

Build is a mirror to the Scrapper in every way that matters.  Better times were a matter of carrying more Fury into the fight.. 2:07 was a very smooth run with about 60% Fury coming in.

 

Looks like the TW/Bio Brute loses about a quarter of the TW/Bio Scrappers DPS... which doesnt seem out of line, but really undermines my predictions above.

 

In light of the above, I decided to explore a forgotten and much maligned set, Energy Melee.  Upon a time, it was my main. 

 

Now, Scrappers dont GET Energy Melee, but Brutes DO.. and Brutes get Bioarmor, and Titan Weapons, and I had these Titan/Bio Brute times lying around. 

 

We all know the reputation Energy Melee gets... but does it live down to it?  I set out to draw a crowd of fury buffers.. usually managed to start each timer with 70-80% Fury Bar. My rotation was dirt simple, which probably explains the consistent times.  Lacking any held weapon, Energy Melee can easily 'duck out' of its pool to grab gloom.  Gloom, amusingly, is better DPA than anything in the set but Energy Transfer, so it becomes a very straightforward Energy Transfer-Gloom-Total Focus-Gloom.  Timing was just right so I could trigger Buildup right before the next Energy Transfer, right as gloom finished animating and Energy Transfer came off recharge.

 

So whats energy melee got left in the tank, when you do everything you can to make it better, including going outside of the set to make it better?

 

Time:

3:40

3:33

3:30 (315 DPS)

 

... Say gnite, gracie.

 

 

[Sir Myshkin]

If you want maximum Single Target killing power, T4 Degenerative Core (-75% MaxHP). This is the optimal choice against specifically hard targets where the stacks can matter (potentially some longer-lasting bosses, but primarily EB/AV/Monster/GM). Anything sub boss level, Interface (in general) doesn't really matter because its likelihood of impacting Minions/Lieuts/Most Bosses, is minimal regardless of whether DoT/Debuff route.

 

I've heard this preference stated before, but I don't quite get why - I must be misunderstanding how the max hp debuff proc plays out. Can you explain why this outperforms the Reactive -res and moderate fire proc?

 

Reactive is still trying to work off a full value of HP whereas Degenerative is reducing the actual total value, and thus the total time required to kill a target.

 

Imagine a straight drag-race track. I take two racers and start them at the same point, and they peel out for the end line. The track is 1,000 feet long for the Reactive driver, and their car goes 1 foot per second faster than the other and clears the track in 60/s (16.667 f/s), however the Degenerative driver moves their finish line closer by 250 feet, and traveling at 15.667 f/s, crosses their line at 48/s.

 

So if I Pylon has like 30,000 some-odd HP, the Degen user has dropped it to ~26,000 (I don't recall the exact values at the moment), and also effectively changed the HP/s it regenerates (Regen is based off Max HP, it's a percent value of that total to get HP/s). Doing both those things creates an uneven field against the Reactive user.

 

 

Iirc, back during live, Reactive Radial was the best choice when pylon testing. Degenerative Core was second. Interface can only be stacked so many times, and was sort of a waste when every Tom, Dick and Harry; Peter, Paul and Mary had Reactive.

 

I've scoured over the old Archived Pylon thread for other information recently and the consensus at the end of that thread was Degenerative Core was overall better compared to any one other variant. They're not necessarily dramatic differences, but they're still notably apart from each other in most cases. The closest is obviously Reactive (either form) compared to the other remaining options.

 

You are right on the stacking concern though, we're very likely tripping over each other with Interfaces anyway, so it only has real precedence in limited or solo engagements.

[siolfir]

Titan/Bioarmor Brute

2:58

2:55

2:53

2:34

2:30

2:30

2:07 (442 DPS)

 

Build is a mirror to the Scrapper in every way that matters.  Better times were a matter of carrying more Fury into the fight.. 2:07 was a very smooth run with about 60% Fury coming in.

 

Looks like the TW/Bio Brute loses about a quarter of the TW/Bio Scrappers DPS... which doesnt seem out of line, but really undermines my predictions above.

 

In light of the above, I decided to explore a forgotten and much maligned set, Energy Melee.  Upon a time, it was my main. 

 

Now, Scrappers dont GET Energy Melee, but Brutes DO.. and Brutes get Bioarmor, and Titan Weapons, and I had these Titan/Bio Brute times lying around. 

 

We all know the reputation Energy Melee gets... but does it live down to it?  I set out to draw a crowd of fury buffers.. usually managed to start each timer with 70-80% Fury Bar. My rotation was dirt simple, which probably explains the consistent times.  Lacking any held weapon, Energy Melee can easily 'duck out' of its pool to grab gloom.  Gloom, amusingly, is better DPA than anything in the set but Energy Transfer, so it becomes a very straightforward Energy Transfer-Gloom-Total Focus-Gloom.  Timing was just right so I could trigger Buildup right before the next Energy Transfer, right as gloom finished animating and Energy Transfer came off recharge.

 

So whats energy melee got left in the tank, when you do everything you can to make it better, including going outside of the set to make it better?

 

Time:

3:40

3:33

3:30 (315 DPS)

 

... Say gnite, gracie.

But at least you can still kill yourself with Energy Transfer, so that's something unique to the set... right?

[StrikerFox]

But at least you can still kill yourself with Energy Transfer, so that's something unique to the set... right?

 

Haha! Don't want to give enemy players the satisfaction of scoring points off you in pvp? Defeat yourself!

 

StJ/SR Stalker. 96s, 527dps. T4 Musc Core, T4 Degen Core. [bU]-AS-CU-SB-[bU]-AS-SC-SB-IS-repeat. I had the SNBR dps program running and can't figure out how IS out-dps SB. Especially since SB is used twice in the chain, and they're slotted pretty much the same.

 

 

Ran out of endurance at the very end. It prompted me to investigate why end recovery was low compared to my Pine's build. Discovered I had the wrong Numina's IO slotted the whole time.

[DSorrow]

Got my Rad/SD Scrapper up to 50 yesterday and his T3 Musculature + all IOs slotted today and got 4:36 for 267 DPS. I imagine with degenerative, T4 Musc, passive Assault Hybrid and any AAO padding should take it past 300 easily. Attack chain I'm using is DB -> RS -> Siphon -> RS.

 

EDIT: Wanted to add some slotting: DB hosts 5 Hecatomb + Achilles proc, RS has full Critical Strikes, Siphon has the superior winter melee set. PvP -Res in Irradiated Ground.