Pylon Damage Thread

Ston · June 27, 2023

Just now, Brutal Justice said:

I don’t play on test so maybe there are special powers over there that I am not familiar with. Which burnout power are you talking about? You don’t have the actual burnout power in your build.

It’s a burnout power from the P2W vendor that you can only use on Beta. You can also reset burnout by joining & exiting an arena event.

Bionic_Flea · June 27, 2023

CHEATER!!

🤪

SomeGuy · June 28, 2023

5 hours ago, Bionic_Flea said:

CHEATER!!

🤪

I know this is a joke, but Ston comes across as someone who isn't sharing his data with others to compete. And some people are..well, people (ew). He/She/They (no clue what to use, obviously) gives a really good baseline and info for others to go off of IMO. It's why I share my stuff. For example, I solo mostly so my stuff tries to simulate a lack of team buffs as much as possible. Others might want to know when things get weird and wild. Some people just think it's cheating not going at a thing with just brawl.

SomeGuy · June 29, 2023

BS/BIO/BLAZE

Average (10+ Runs), Degen, Musc, Hybrid Off

1:19

Headsplitter - Hack - Disembowel - (if force feedback proc did NOT go off) Ring of Fire

I'm more apt to do this with a build that I don't *feel* like it needs Shadow Meld. I'll toy with a RoF build for my BS/SD. Granted, off the top of my head, I fear I'd have to drop Super Jump to do it.

*Nope. Not doing it.

Edited June 30, 2023 by SomeGuy

Ratch_ · July 2, 2023

Regen broot (claws) plyon time. Around 4 minutes 20s range - hybrid off.

Designed to be more of a dedicated tank build, very happy with it's performance...however claws is too demanding for me to play for extended periods of time.

BrandX · July 2, 2023

Did a recent test run on my EM/Regen/Soul Scrapper

Spiritual Core Alpha (so no damage buff there) - Assault Radial Hybrid (off) - Reactive Radial Interface

ET - TF - ET - BS - MB - Repeat (Critical Strikes Proc in ET)

2:57 - 344 DPS

Not making any records there, but for no damage buffs or damage aura in the Secondary, not to bad imo.

Panache · July 5, 2023

On 7/2/2023 at 3:05 AM, BrandX said:

Did a recent test run on my EM/Regen/Soul Scrapper

Spiritual Core Alpha (so no damage buff there) - Assault Radial Hybrid (off) - Reactive Radial Interface

ET - TF - ET - BS - MB - Repeat (Critical Strikes Proc in ET)

2:57 - 344 DPS

Not making any records there, but for no damage buffs or damage aura in the Secondary, not to bad imo.

Is this Spoilsport? Always enjoy bumping into that toon

BrandX · July 5, 2023

6 hours ago, Panache said:

Is this Spoilsport? Always enjoy bumping into that toon

It is 🙂

SomeGuy · July 7, 2023

MA/RAD/MU Scrapper 1:40 Average, Hybrid Off

Had a streak of crappy RNG. That average can be lower, but whatever. MA is good.

EC - Snipe - CaK - EC - SC - CaK - SC Repeat. Meltdown, BU, and Rad Therapy on cooldown.

This Hero build was built using Mids Reborn 3.4.6
https://github.com/LoadedCamel/MidsReborn

Click this DataLink to open the build!

Level 50 Technology Scrapper
Primary Power Set: Martial Arts
Secondary Power Set: Radiation Armor
Power Pool: Leaping
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Leadership
Ancillary Pool: Soul Mastery

Hero Profile:
Level 1: Storm Kick
Level 1: Brawl
Level 14: Double Jump
Level 50: Musculature Core Paragon
------------

(A) Superior Critical Strikes - Accuracy/Damage/RechargeTime
(3) Superior Critical Strikes - Damage/Endurance/RechargeTime
(3) Superior Critical Strikes - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance/RechargeTime
(5) Mako's Bite - Chance of Damage(Lethal)
(5) Touch of Death - Chance of Damage(Negative)
(7) Gladiator's Strike - Chance for Smashing Damage

Level 1: Alpha Barrier

(A) Unbreakable Guard - Resistance
(7) Unbreakable Guard - Resistance/Endurance
(9) Unbreakable Guard - Resistance/Endurance/RechargeTime
(9) Unbreakable Guard - RechargeTime/Resistance

Level 2: Gamma Boost

(A) Numina's Convalesence - +Regeneration/+Recovery

Level 4: Proton Armor

(A) Unbreakable Guard - Resistance
(11) Unbreakable Guard - Resistance/Endurance
(11) Unbreakable Guard - Resistance/Endurance/RechargeTime
(13) Unbreakable Guard - RechargeTime/Resistance

Level 6: Focus Chi

(A) Gaussian's Synchronized Fire-Control - Chance for Build Up
(13) Recharge Reduction IO
(15) Recharge Reduction IO

Level 8: Combat Jumping

(A) Luck of the Gambler - Defense/Increased Global Recharge Speed
(15) Shield Wall - +Res (Teleportation), +5% Res (All)

Level 10: Fallout Shelter

(A) Steadfast Protection - Resistance/+Def 3%
(17) Gladiator's Armor - TP Protection +3% Def (All)

Level 12: Hasten

(A) Recharge Reduction IO
(17) Recharge Reduction IO

Level 14: Super Jump

(A) Winter's Gift - Slow Resistance (20%)

Level 16: Radiation Therapy

(A) Fury of the Gladiator - Chance for Res Debuff
(19) Obliteration - Chance for Smashing Damage
(21) Eradication - Chance for Energy Damage
(21) Armageddon - Chance for Fire Damage
(46) Scirocco's Dervish - Chance of Damage(Lethal)

Level 18: Crippling Axe Kick

(A) Hecatomb - Damage/Recharge/Accuracy
(23) Hecatomb - Damage/Endurance
(25) Hecatomb - Chance of Damage(Negative)
(25) Achilles' Heel - Chance for Res Debuff
(27) Touch of Death - Chance of Damage(Negative)
(27) Gladiator's Strike - Chance for Smashing Damage

Level 20: Beta Decay

(A) Achilles' Heel - Chance for Res Debuff
(46) Dampened Spirits - To Hit Debuff
(50) Dark Watcher's Despair - To Hit Debuff

Level 22: Boxing

(A) Absolute Amazement - Stun
(46) Absolute Amazement - Stun/Recharge
(48) Absolute Amazement - Stun/Recharge/Accuracy
(50) Absolute Amazement - Recharge/Accuracy
(50) Absolute Amazement - Stun/Endurance

Level 24: Tough

(A) Unbreakable Guard - +Max HP
(29) Unbreakable Guard - Resistance/Endurance/RechargeTime
(40) Unbreakable Guard - Resistance
(43) Unbreakable Guard - Resistance/Endurance

Level 26: Dragon's Tail

(A) Superior Scrapper's Strike - Recharge/Critical Hit Bonus
(29) Superior Scrapper's Strike - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance/Recharge
(31) Superior Scrapper's Strike - Damage/Recharge
(31) Superior Scrapper's Strike - Accuracy/Damage/Recharge
(31) Superior Scrapper's Strike - Damage/Endurance/Recharge

Level 28: Particle Shielding

(A) Preventive Medicine - Chance for +Absorb
(33) Preventive Medicine - Heal
(33) Preventive Medicine - Heal/Endurance
(33) Preventive Medicine - Endurance/RechargeTime
(34) Preventive Medicine - Heal/RechargeTime
(34) Preventive Medicine - Heal/RechargeTime/Endurance

Level 30: Weave

(A) Luck of the Gambler - Defense/Increased Global Recharge Speed
(34) Red Fortune - Defense/Endurance
(36) Red Fortune - Defense

Level 32: Eagles Claw

(A) Superior Critical Strikes - Accuracy/Damage
(36) Superior Critical Strikes - Damage/RechargeTime
(36) Superior Critical Strikes - RechargeTime/+50% Crit Proc
(37) Mako's Bite - Chance of Damage(Lethal)
(37) Touch of Death - Chance of Damage(Negative)
(37) Gladiator's Strike - Chance for Smashing Damage

Level 35: Ground Zero

(A) Obliteration - Chance for Smashing Damage
(39) Obliteration - Damage
(39) Obliteration - Accuracy/Recharge
(39) Obliteration - Damage/Recharge
(40) Obliteration - Accuracy/Damage/Recharge
(45) Obliteration - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance/Recharge

Level 38: Meltdown

(A) Recharge Reduction IO
(40) Recharge Reduction IO

Level 41: Moonbeam

(A) Apocalypse - Damage/Recharge/Accuracy
(42) Apocalypse - Damage/Endurance
(42) Apocalypse - Chance of Damage(Negative)
(42) Sting of the Manticore - Chance of Damage(Toxic)
(43) Gladiator's Javelin - Chance of Damage(Toxic)
(43) Decimation - Chance of Build Up

Level 44: Shadow Meld

(A) Luck of the Gambler - Defense/Increased Global Recharge Speed

Level 47: Maneuvers

(A) Luck of the Gambler - Defense/Increased Global Recharge Speed
(48) Reactive Defenses - Defense/Endurance
(48) Reactive Defenses - Scaling Resist Damage

Level 49: Assault

(A) Endurance Reduction IO

Level 1: Critical Hit

(A) Superior Blistering Cold - Recharge/Chance for Hold
(19) Superior Blistering Cold - Accuracy/Damage/Recharge
(23) Superior Blistering Cold - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance
(45) Superior Blistering Cold - Accuracy/Damage
(45) Superior Blistering Cold - Damage/Endurance

Level 1: Sprint

(A) Run Speed IO

Level 2: Rest

(A) Empty

Level 1: Swift

(A) Run Speed IO

Level 1: Hurdle

(A) Jumping IO

Level 1: Health

(A) Panacea - +Hit Points/Endurance

Level 1: Stamina

(A) Performance Shifter - Chance for +End

Level 49: Quick Form

Does surprisingly good AOE. EC - Dragon Tail is pretty good AOE DPS. Either 33% or 83% increased chance to crit. Combined with procced Rad Therapy and Ground Zero this build drops whole packs decently well.

Koopak · July 8, 2023

Fortunata - 1:40.6 - 509dps - Average - Hybrid On

Best from this was 1:35 see linked video, 531.47dps. Is there a better Fortunata time out there? Build attached. This is my normal play build, so completely viable in endgame content. Musculature Core, Reactive Radial, Assault Radial.

Acinus v3 - Arachnos Fortunata.mbd

Edited July 8, 2023 by Koopak

SomeGuy · July 9, 2023

If anyone tries to argue tankers aren't OP they are wrong and they're opinion is wrong.

Average of 5+ runs. Hybrid off.

Tanker ELA/TW 3:00 (Degen/RoF/MA)

This Hero build was built using Mids Reborn 3.4.6
https://github.com/LoadedCamel/MidsReborn

Click this DataLink to open the build!

Level 50 Technology Tanker
Primary Power Set: Electric Armor
Secondary Power Set: Titan Weapons
Power Pool: Leaping
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Leadership
Ancillary Pool: Pyre Mastery

Hero Profile:
Level 1: Charged Armor
Level 1: Brawl
Level 50: Musculature Core Paragon
------------

(A) Unbreakable Guard - Resistance
(3) Unbreakable Guard - Resistance/Endurance
(3) Unbreakable Guard - Resistance/Endurance/RechargeTime
(5) Unbreakable Guard - RechargeTime/Resistance

Level 1: Defensive Sweep

(A) Luck of the Gambler - Defense/Increased Global Recharge Speed
(5) Shield Wall - +Res (Teleportation), +5% Res (All)

Level 2: Conductive Shield

(A) Unbreakable Guard - Resistance
(7) Unbreakable Guard - Resistance/Endurance
(9) Unbreakable Guard - Resistance/Endurance/RechargeTime
(9) Unbreakable Guard - RechargeTime/Resistance

Level 4: Crushing Blow

(A) Superior Blistering Cold - Accuracy/Damage
(11) Superior Blistering Cold - Damage/Endurance
(11) Superior Blistering Cold - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance
(13) Superior Blistering Cold - Accuracy/Damage/Recharge
(13) Superior Blistering Cold - Damage/Endurance/Accuracy/RechargeTime
(15) Achilles' Heel - Chance for Res Debuff

Level 6: Static Shield

(A) Gladiator's Armor - TP Protection +3% Def (All)
(50) Gladiator's Armor - Resistance
(50) Gladiator's Armor - End/Resist

Level 8: Grounded

(A) Steadfast Protection - Resistance/+Def 3%

Level 10: Lightning Field

(A) Superior Gauntleted Fist - RechargeTime/+Absorb
(15) Superior Gauntleted Fist - Accuracy/Damage
(17) Superior Gauntleted Fist - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance/RechargeTime
(17) Superior Gauntleted Fist - Damage/RechargeTime
(19) Superior Gauntleted Fist - Accuracy/Damage/RechargeTime
(19) Superior Gauntleted Fist - Damage/Endurance/RechargeTime

Level 12: Energize

(A) Preventive Medicine - Chance for +Absorb
(21) Preventive Medicine - Heal/RechargeTime/Endurance
(21) Preventive Medicine - Heal
(23) Preventive Medicine - Heal/Endurance
(23) Preventive Medicine - Endurance/RechargeTime
(25) Preventive Medicine - Heal/RechargeTime

Level 14: Taunt

(A) Accuracy IO

Level 16: Follow Through

(A) Superior Might of the Tanker - Recharge/Chance for +Res(All)
(25) Superior Might of the Tanker - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance/Recharge
(27) Superior Might of the Tanker - Damage/Endurance/Recharge
(27) Superior Might of the Tanker - Damage/Recharge
(29) Superior Might of the Tanker - Accuracy/Damage/Recharge
(29) Gladiator's Strike - Chance for Smashing Damage

Level 18: Lightning Reflexes

(A) Run Speed IO

Level 20: Build Momentum

(A) Gaussian's Synchronized Fire-Control - Chance for Build Up
(31) Adjusted Targeting - Recharge
(31) Adjusted Targeting - To Hit Buff/Endurance
(31) Adjusted Targeting - To Hit Buff/Recharge
(33) Adjusted Targeting - To Hit Buff/Endurance/Recharge
(33) Adjusted Targeting - Endurance/Recharge

Level 22: Combat Jumping

(A) Luck of the Gambler - Defense/Increased Global Recharge Speed
(33) Kismet - Accuracy +6%
(34) Winter's Gift - Slow Resistance (20%)

Level 24: Hasten

(A) Recharge Reduction IO
(34) Recharge Reduction IO

Level 26: Boxing

(A) Empty

Level 28: Rend Armor

(A) Hecatomb - Chance of Damage(Negative)
(34) Hecatomb - Damage/Recharge
(36) Hecatomb - Damage/Recharge/Accuracy
(36) Hecatomb - Damage/Endurance
(36) Hecatomb - Recharge/Accuracy
(37) Achilles' Heel - Chance for Res Debuff

Level 30: Tough

(A) Unbreakable Guard - +Max HP
(37) Unbreakable Guard - Resistance/Endurance/RechargeTime
(37) Unbreakable Guard - Resistance
(39) Unbreakable Guard - Resistance/Endurance

Level 32: Weave

(A) Luck of the Gambler - Defense/Increased Global Recharge Speed
(39) Luck of the Gambler - Defense
(39) Luck of the Gambler - Defense/Endurance

Level 35: Whirling Smash

(A) Superior Avalanche - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance/Recharge
(40) Superior Avalanche - Accuracy/Damage/Recharge
(40) Superior Avalanche - Accuracy/Damage
(40) Superior Avalanche - Damage/Endurance
(42) Superior Avalanche - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance

Level 38: Arc of Destruction

(A) Armageddon - Chance for Fire Damage
(42) Armageddon - Damage/Endurance
(42) Armageddon - Recharge/Accuracy
(43) Armageddon - Damage/Recharge
(43) Armageddon - Damage/Recharge/Accuracy
(43) Fury of the Gladiator - Chance for Res Debuff

Level 41: Ring of Fire

(A) Apocalypse - Damage/Recharge
(45) Apocalypse - Damage/Endurance
(45) Apocalypse - Chance of Damage(Negative)
(45) Apocalypse - Damage/Recharge/Accuracy
(46) Apocalypse - Recharge/Accuracy
(46) Decimation - Chance of Build Up

Level 44: Melt Armor

D-Sync Origin:D-Sync Provocation
(48) Achilles' Heel - Chance for Res Debuff

Level 47: Maneuvers

(A) Luck of the Gambler - Defense/Increased Global Recharge Speed
(48) Reactive Defenses - Defense/Endurance
(50) Reactive Defenses - Scaling Resist Damage

Level 49: Assault

(A) Endurance Reduction IO

Level 1: Gauntlet

(A) Empty

Level 1: Sprint

(A) Run Speed IO

Level 2: Rest

(A) Empty

Level 1: Swift

(A) Run Speed IO

Level 1: Hurdle

(A) Jumping IO

Level 1: Health

(A) Panacea - +Hit Points/Endurance
(7) Numina's Convalesence - +Regeneration/+Recovery

Level 1: Stamina

(A) Performance Shifter - Chance for +End

Level 1: Momentum

Edited July 9, 2023 by SomeGuy

Sovera · July 9, 2023

On 6/20/2023 at 11:34 AM, Panache said:

Are people noticing significant differences between Degen and Reactive? I’m getting very similar times with either.

Degen works on AVs and visibly reduces the time needed to kill it. Works on the pylon as well. Does little for regular missions except if using the 75% chance for DoT and then it shaves some time off kills. I use it as a middle ground choice good for either AV bashing or clearing missions.

Reactive does not work on AVs (or should I say it has no visible impact on AVs due to -res resistance) but works well on a pylon due to it being considered +0, hence the similar times it gets compared to Degen in pylon tests. But it also is what has the best results for regular missions. This is not from the -res but rather the DoT so I'd go around picking the version with 75% chance for DoT.

If someone has run their own tests and have different experiences please correct me.

Edited July 10, 2023 by Sovera

Koopak · July 9, 2023

3 hours ago, Sovera said:

Reactive does not work on AVs (or should I say it has no visible impact on AVs due to -res resistance) but works well on a pylon due to it being considered +0, hence the similar times it gets compared to Degen in pylon tests. But it also is what has the best results for regular missions. This is not from the -res but rather the DoT so I'd go around picking the version with 75% chance for DoT.

If someone has run their own tests and have different experiences please correct me.

I'm not sure where you are getting this. Neither Purple Patch nor AV resistance impact damage resistance, only damage resistance resists -resistance, and most AVs do not have more than 50% resistance with most having less.

Generally I've found Reactive Radial to put up the best pylon times. Against run of the mill AVs Degen may be better due to their lower total HP pool making the -max hp more significant. However against anything with a pylon like health pool (see AVs with +maxhp or hardmode / trials) Reactive wins again, especially in teams where the -res is helping your team.

Strictly speaking the cleanest answer requires you to know your DPS first. The more damage you do WITHOUT Reactive, the more valuable the -res becomes. So for builds doing sub 300 DPS it may be better to go degen. Both have stacking limits for team purposes so i can be worth to have both in actual content and swap to whichever your team has fewer of.

SomeGuy · July 9, 2023

14 minutes ago, Koopak said:

Both have stacking limits for team purposes so i can be worth to have both in actual content and swap to whichever your team has fewer of.

GOLD FRICKIN' STAR

The limit is 4x btw for those wondering.

Sovera · July 10, 2023

1 hour ago, Koopak said:

I'm not sure where you are getting this. Neither Purple Patch nor AV resistance impact damage resistance, only damage resistance resists -resistance, and most AVs do not have more than 50% resistance with most having less.

Generally I've found Reactive Radial to put up the best pylon times. Against run of the mill AVs Degen may be better due to their lower total HP pool making the -max hp more significant. However against anything with a pylon like health pool (see AVs with +maxhp or hardmode / trials) Reactive wins again, especially in teams where the -res is helping your team.

Strictly speaking the cleanest answer requires you to know your DPS first. The more damage you do WITHOUT Reactive, the more valuable the -res becomes. So for builds doing sub 300 DPS it may be better to go degen. Both have stacking limits for team purposes so i can be worth to have both in actual content and swap to whichever your team has fewer of.

From testing, not math. I hit several +4 (+3 with alpha) AVs in the AE and tallied their HP after 5 minutes. Degen had a significant impact and Reactive had none. Ditto on the -res aspect and the DoT of Reactive. The 75% DoT was better in clearing maps than the 75% chance for -res.

As always if someone has more data please correct me.

And if we really want to be min maxey we can also have one of each tier as the Degen/Reactive does not stack, true, but only for its according tier. So if someone has T4 but the other has T3/T2/T1 the effects will stack.

Koopak · July 10, 2023

3 hours ago, Sovera said:

From testing, not math. I hit several +4 (+3 with alpha) AVs in the AE and tallied their HP after 5 minutes. Degen had a significant impact and Reactive had none.

This is why 'testing' is crap and I wish people would chill on how often they bring it up or present their results, because it adds a level of authority that shouldn't be there, leading to rampant misinformation. 5 minutes is a crap shoot, assuming the rest of your testing methodology is solid, you are still very vulnerable to probability drift there. I'm not attacking you, only your data.

Applying the math, AVs at lvl 54 (+4 difficulty) have the same hp and regeneration rate as a pylon, this is WHY pylons are the ideal test targets. for proof, look here, make sure level is set to 54. https://cod.uberguy.net./html/archetype-data.html?at=boss_archvillain

As such we happen to have the dps formula if we omit the /0.8 at the end which accounts for pylon resistances, though AVs are often similar. Now instead of throwing a time in, we can use this data to calculate 2 things, Effective Health (EFHP) and Effective Regeneration (EFHP/s) giving us a clear picture of both how much damage you need to do per second to cause lasting harm, and how much total damage past that dps you need to do to defeat the AV.

So our AV's HP is 30677.15
our AV's Regeneration is 102.26 hp/s

If we apply the maximum of 4 stacks of -maxhp from degen core we get about (degen stacks oddly so its not a clean -4000 but we will use that)

EFHP: 26677.15
EFHP/s: 88.92 hp/s

If we instead apply the 4 stacks of -res, we can calculate this same value ignoring any resistance they have because the impact is the same in relative terms (-10% resistance will always be a relative 10% damage gain) thus our results from factoring in this -res are

EFHP: 27,609.43
EFHP/s: 92.03 hp/s

So as we can see this is where the common consensus that Degen is superior comes from, however the margin is quite small, only a ~3.5% gain over Reactive. This advantage also shrinks as the target's HP increases, such as Trial bosses, Harmode bosses, and so on that use greater than AV scales. This is where the DoTs step in. Reactive's dot is scale 0.125, while degen's is scale 0.1

Comparing them that's a 25% gain in DoT damage going to Reactive, which si what generally closes the gap. I'd try to math this out further but at this point you DO need a hypothetical rotation of sorts to estimate proc chances per second.

3 hours ago, Sovera said:

And if we really want to be min maxey we can also have one of each tier as the Degen/Reactive does not stack, true, but only for its according tier. So if someone has T4 but the other has T3/T2/T1 the effects will stack.

This is incorrect, all forms of Degen and all forms of Reactive call the same debuff power, and the stacking is based on that power. Mixing Tiers will not allow you to stack it further.

5 hours ago, SomeGuy said:

The limit is 4x btw for those wondering.

It should be noted, that's 4 applications of the debuff, those 4 applications CAN be applied by a single individual, making all other rolls of the debuff useless, this is why Radial is superior to Core in groups if not solo. When testing you WILL occasionally see 5 applications, but this can occur even with a single person applying and has to do with the attribute monitor's update rate, NOT the snackability of the power.

Edited July 10, 2023 by Koopak

Sovera · July 10, 2023

10 hours ago, Koopak said:

This is why 'testing' is crap and I wish people would chill on how often they bring it up or present their results, because it adds a level of authority that shouldn't be there, leading to rampant misinformation. 5 minutes is a crap shoot, assuming the rest of your testing methodology is solid, you are still very vulnerable to probability drift there. I'm not attacking you, only your data.

Applying the math, AVs at lvl 54 (+4 difficulty) have the same hp and regeneration rate as a pylon, this is WHY pylons are the ideal test targets. for proof, look here, make sure level is set to 54. https://cod.uberguy.net./html/archetype-data.html?at=boss_archvillain

As such we happen to have the dps formula if we omit the /0.8 at the end which accounts for pylon resistances, though AVs are often similar. Now instead of throwing a time in, we can use this data to calculate 2 things, Effective Health (EFHP) and Effective Regeneration (EFHP/s) giving us a clear picture of both how much damage you need to do per second to cause lasting harm, and how much total damage past that dps you need to do to defeat the AV.

So our AV's HP is 30677.15
our AV's Regeneration is 102.26 hp/s

If we apply the maximum of 4 stacks of -maxhp from degen core we get about (degen stacks oddly so its not a clean -4000 but we will use that)

EFHP: 26677.15
EFHP/s: 88.92 hp/s

If we instead apply the 4 stacks of -res, we can calculate this same value ignoring any resistance they have because the impact is the same in relative terms (-10% resistance will always be a relative 10% damage gain) thus our results from factoring in this -res are

EFHP: 27,609.43
EFHP/s: 92.03 hp/s

So as we can see this is where the common consensus that Degen is superior comes from, however the margin is quite small, only a ~3.5% gain over Reactive. This advantage also shrinks as the target's HP increases, such as Trial bosses, Harmode bosses, and so on that use greater than AV scales. This is where the DoTs step in. Reactive's dot is scale 0.125, while degen's is scale 0.1

Comparing them that's a 25% gain in DoT damage going to Reactive, which si what generally closes the gap. I'd try to math this out further but at this point you DO need a hypothetical rotation of sorts to estimate proc chances per second.

This is incorrect, all forms of Degen and all forms of Reactive call the same debuff power, and the stacking is based on that power. Mixing Tiers will not allow you to stack it further.

It should be noted, that's 4 applications of the debuff, those 4 applications CAN be applied by a single individual, making all other rolls of the debuff useless, this is why Radial is superior to Core in groups if not solo. When testing you WILL occasionally see 5 applications, but this can occur even with a single person applying and has to do with the attribute monitor's update rate, NOT the snackability of the power.

That's a weird thing to say. I find math to be the lead cause of misinformation. Math often does not account for under the hood sub-math, or plain bugs, or some sort of dev imposed rule also running under the hood. People will think that their math is correct, because math is always correct, but the rules governing the math are subjective to coding.

And yes, a single 5 minutes is not enough, but 5 minutes is the customary cut off point where RNG has smoothed out things. Most importantly the number difference was large enough to remove doubts:

Quote

Found an AE mission with Mako and used him as a test subject. Not the best since he keeps on Placating, but it will have to do. Wailed on the guy for 5 minutes and got:

23.5 out of 30.6k with Reactive 75% DoT
16.3 out of 30.6k with Degenerative 75% -HP

22k out of 30.6k without interface slotted.

This is what I got. If someone wants to do some actual tests of their own and present results I would be pleased pink to have something to compare with and see what diverged. Possible swapping 75% chance for -res instead of chance to DoT would make the difference?

Edited July 10, 2023 by Sovera

Koopak · July 10, 2023

4 hours ago, Sovera said:

That's a weird thing to say. I find math to be the lead cause of misinformation. Math often does not account for under the hood sub-math, or plain bugs, or some sort of dev imposed rule also running under the hood. People will think that their math is correct, because math is always correct, but the rules governing the math are subjective to coding.

So your argument is that math is bad because people make mistakes. Here is the thing, anyone with knowledge of how the game should be modeled can look at a model and tell if its wrong according to their knowledge, anyone can reproduce the numbers, and anyone can design a test to validate the model. Testing on the other hand can only be validated through further testing, and that assumes your testing methodology is clearly communicated AND well designed. This means you require other people to spend as much time if not more to reproduce your results for a lower fidelaty source of information.

4 hours ago, Sovera said:

And yes, a single 5 minutes is not enough, but 5 minutes is the customary cut off point where RNG has smoothed out things. Most importantly the number difference was large enough to remove doubts:

Quote

Found an AE mission with Mako and used him as a test subject. Not the best since he keeps on Placating, but it will have to do. Wailed on the guy for 5 minutes and got:

23.5 out of 30.6k with Reactive 75% DoT
16.3 out of 30.6k with Degenerative 75% -HP

22k out of 30.6k without interface slotted.

A large difference that drastically deviates from the mathematical model does NOT remove doubts, it CASTS doubts, because it implies either the model is wrong, or your testing methodology is wrong. This is even more extreme when your results show that not only is Degen somehow not only 30% better than Reactive, but NO interface is 6.5% better than Reactive. That should have set off massive red flags that your data was noise riddled, because it is IMPOSSIBLE for no interface to be better than some interface. The DoT ALONE should insure that even if you believe, wrongly, that AVs are immune to -resistance.

Your quote isn't easy to search up atm, can you share more details of your testing methodology? What build? What's their dps? You say you ran a test for 5 minutes but didn't kill the AV, that tells me your DPS was VERY low, which the model clearly says Degen is more valuable at low DPS values.

This test method is not clear, and you are 'publishing' results without coming to understand WHY, leading to the false assumptions of how the game actually works. This is literally how multiple scandals in the scientific community have kicked off.

Further 5 minutes is NOT a customary cut off point to my knowledge and if it is it shouldn't be. Using my Widow as an example because she does many more attacks than most ATs, her rotation is 4 attack in about 4.75 seconds, that's about 63 attacks, meaning 63 trials. In that you would expect to see 47.25 procs of the debuff, however one proc above or below is a deviation of 1/63 or 1.58%, 2 is 3.16%, 3 is 4.74%, and suddenly we are beyond the expectant advantage of Degen. So assuming you deviated a mere 3 procs from statistical average you have DOUBLED the advantage Degen has over Reactive.

If we were only wanting to know the proc rate, this test would be valid, if light, as the number of procs would be reasonably close to the expected proc rate. However our goal is to compare two competing effects applied by said proc. Two effects that, when modeled, show a relatively small difference between them. In order to eliminate the risk of probability drift you would need at least a hundred, preferably a thousand or so proc instances within your data, otherwise you run a significant risk of the noise of probability drowning out your actual data. For your test, again, assuming the rest of the methodology is sound, which i would need the details of to make any assessments about, that would require 10 minutes of testing at minimum, preferably 100 minutes.

This is why testing without a model, and without a clear goal is a source of misinformation. Your test is only 5 minutes each, including prep time, probably a 15 minute affair, not a big deal, prohibitive to some I'm sure, but not most. However a review of what we KNOW about a game that has an open source code base anyone can verify, shows that at minimum you should have tested for 10 minutes each, leading to a 25 minute round trip, or god forbid, a properly rigorous test of 205 minutes. Now how many people do you think are going to burn half an hour of their day or more validating your results versus how many can review some words and make sure the logic presented is sound?

Testing COULD work as a first port of call if we all had the time and patience to perform properly developed, rigorous testing. OR we can look at the facts of how a program runs and simply do the math and if someone makes a mistake, all it takes is someone else who has a highschool level education and an accurate grasp of the game's mechanics to call them on it. Not MULTIPLE testers as is required to refute test results since a single test result that is different could just be probability creeping in again.

Edited July 10, 2023 by Koopak

Sovera · July 10, 2023

Listen, I love ya, but, you seem more interested in arguing than showing the results you got. Take 10 minutes and hit an AV for 5 minutes with Degen (or kill it if you want) and 5 minutes with Reactive. And if you are feeling energetic still do one without Interface slotted.

I am very willing to change my mind but I need some common ground.

Koopak · July 10, 2023

1 hour ago, Sovera said:

Listen, I love ya, but, you seem more interested in arguing than showing the results you got. Take 10 minutes and hit an AV for 5 minutes with Degen (or kill it if you want) and 5 minutes with Reactive. And if you are feeling energetic still do one without Interface slotted.

I am very willing to change my mind but I need some common ground.

Did this and got the results Id expect, took a solid 30 minutes to sort since Mako had defenses and I didn't have a build on hand to compensate so had to figure that out because otherwise I'm adding MORE noise to the data, further i only did these three runs so statistical deviation is entirely possible. Keep in mind my pylon times deviate by about 15 seconds up and down, for a 7% shift PURELY on misses, let alone any input errors and such. There's a reason a lot of times here are averages of 10+ runs.

None the less, the results, mirroring your own format, using kill time rather than hp values.
Reactive Radial: 2:46 (75% chance for DoT)
Degenerative Core: 2:53 (75% chance for -maxhp)
No Interface: 3:05

And video of the tests.

if we were to use this as conclusive evidence WHICH WE SHOULD NOT then Degen Core is a 6.5% dps gain and Reactive Radial is a 10.3% dps gain over no interface at all. If we wanted to responsibly test this we would actually need to do 5-10 runs of each and average the results. However that would be another 45 minutes of my life at minimum.

This is my point. I might be willing to run these tests to placate you, but if I didn't step in to do that I doubt anyone would have and more than one person would have taken your tests as conclusive. Even with my arguments and providing the numbers, this community sees 'testing' as superior, when it is in fact MORE error prone. In this video alone I made 8 micro errors in my rotations off the top of my head, skewing results by probably +/- one to three seconds. I also experienced at least one miss on Shatter Armor, which in pylon times has a minimum impact of 6-7 seconds. 10 seconds is enough to put Reactive behind Degen and Degen nearly on par with no interface.

Proper testing isolates variables, some of those variables, like misses, cannot be isolated and must instead be drowned in data so that the noise they inject is statistically likely to cancel out, but that is not a guarantee. Mathematically we can account for this noise in a model with 100% accuracy however, because we are not scientists testing the limits of known physics, we are nerds disecting a bunch of code. That code behaves in a 100% predictable, 100% reliable fashion, if your math results are wrong, its because your formula is wrong, and anyone can see that in the minute it takes to read it instead of the 20 minutes it took to throw a half assed 'test' up.

Edited July 10, 2023 by Koopak

Sovera · July 10, 2023

30 minutes ago, Koopak said:

Did this and got the results Id expect, took a solid 30 minutes to sort since Mako had defenses and I didn't have a build on hand to compensate so had to figure that out because otherwise I'm adding MORE noise to the data, further i only did these three runs so statistical deviation is entirely possible. Keep in mind my pylon times deviate by about 15 seconds up and down, for a 7% shift PURELY on misses, let alone any input errors and such. There's a reason a lot of times here are averages of 10+ runs.

None the less, the results, mirroring your own format, using kill time rather than hp values.
Reactive Radial: 2:46 (75% chance for DoT)
Degenerative Core: 2:53 (75% chance for -maxhp)
No Interface: 3:05

And video of the tests.

if we were to use this as conclusive evidence WHICH WE SHOULD NOT then Degen Core is a 6.5% dps gain and Reactive Radial is a 10.3% dps gain over no interface at all. If we wanted to responsibly test this we would actually need to do 5-10 runs of each and average the results. However that would be another 45 minutes of my life at minimum.

This is my point. I might be willing to run these tests to placate you, but if I didn't step in to do that I doubt anyone would have and more than one person would have taken your tests as conclusive. Even with my arguments and providing the numbers, this community sees 'testing' as superior, when it is in fact MORE error prone. In this video alone I made 8 micro errors in my rotations off the top of my head, skewing results by probably +/- one to three seconds. I also experienced at least one miss on Shatter Armor, which in pylon times has a minimum impact of 6-7 seconds. 10 seconds is enough to put Reactive behind Degen and Degen nearly on par with no interface.

Proper testing isolates variables, some of those variables, like misses, cannot be isolated and must instead be drowned in data so that the noise they inject is statistically likely to cancel out, but that is not a guarantee. Mathematically we can account for this noise in a model with 100% accuracy however, because we are not scientists testing the limits of known physics, we are nerds disecting a bunch of code. That code behaves in a 100% predictable, 100% reliable fashion, if your math results are wrong, its because your formula is wrong, and anyone can see that in the minute it takes to read it instead of the 20 minutes it took to throw a half assed 'test' up.

15 seconds difference without and with Interface is really telling on how little impact that thing has. I found all three results so close together that misses might well just explain the discrepancy, but, more importantly, it was not the clear cut result that I had with my own test.

I'll remove my suggestion and temper my future advice with this new piece of data.

SomeGuy · July 13, 2023

This one caught me off guard. Going to do a lot more runs to see if this was more legit or if I was measuring wrong. *Just did 4 more runs. It's a better average now.

Scrapper TW/ENA 1:32 (Degen/RoF/MA/Enflame/Proc Build)

Melt Armor and Enflame (lasts 60s) are what carry this the most IMO. Enflame also has a decent tick rate and is an AOE. Enflame is underrated and I'm mad I didn't take it seriously sooner.

Chain:

BM RA FT AoD RA FT AoD RA

RoF CB RA FT AoD RA

RoF normally to BM

If the FF Recharge Procs in FT or AoD don't go off during a BM chain then it looks like: RA FT AoD RA FT WS AoD

The runs where the procs DIDN'T go off at all I got up to 1:40. The runs they went off EVERY BM chain got all the way down to 1:20.

This Hero build was built using Mids Reborn 3.4.6
https://github.com/LoadedCamel/MidsReborn

Click this DataLink to open the build!

Level 50 Magic Scrapper
Primary Power Set: Titan Weapons
Secondary Power Set: Energy Aura
Power Pool: Leaping
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Sorcery
Power Pool: Fighting
Ancillary Pool: Blaze Mastery

Hero Profile:
Level 1: Crushing Blow
Level 1: Brawl
Level 50: Musculature Core Paragon
------------

Hamidon Origin:Nucleolus Exposure
(3) Damage Increase IO
(3) Touch of Lady Grey - Chance for Negative Damage
(5) Touch of Death - Chance of Damage(Negative)
(5) Gladiator's Strike - Chance for Smashing Damage
(7) Achilles' Heel - Chance for Res Debuff

Level 1: Kinetic Shield

(A) Red Fortune - Defense/Endurance
(7) Red Fortune - Defense/Endurance/Recharge
(9) Red Fortune - Defense
(9) Luck of the Gambler - Defense/Increased Global Recharge Speed
(48) Shield Wall - +Res (Teleportation), +5% Res (All)

Level 2: Dampening Field

(A) Gladiator's Armor - TP Protection +3% Def (All)
(13) Gladiator's Armor - End/Resist
(13) Gladiator's Armor - Resistance
(15) Steadfast Protection - Resistance/+Def 3%

Level 4: Power Shield

(A) Reactive Defenses - Scaling Resist Damage
(15) Reactive Defenses - Defense
(17) Reactive Defenses - Defense/Endurance
(17) Reactive Defenses - Endurance/RechargeTime
(19) Reactive Defenses - Defense/RechargeTime
(19) Reactive Defenses - Defense/Endurance/RechargeTime

Level 6: Follow Through

Hamidon Origin:Nucleolus Exposure
(21) Hecatomb - Damage
(21) Touch of Death - Chance of Damage(Negative)
(23) Gladiator's Strike - Chance for Smashing Damage
(23) Superior Critical Strikes - RechargeTime/+50% Crit Proc
(25) Force Feedback - Chance for +Recharge

Level 8: Build Momentum

(A) Gaussian's Synchronized Fire-Control - Chance for Build Up
(11) Adjusted Targeting - To Hit Buff/Endurance
(11) Adjusted Targeting - Recharge
(25) Adjusted Targeting - To Hit Buff/Recharge
(27) Adjusted Targeting - To Hit Buff/Endurance/Recharge
(48) Adjusted Targeting - Endurance/Recharge

Level 10: Entropic Aura

(A) Endurance Reduction IO

Level 12: Combat Jumping

(A) Luck of the Gambler - Defense/Increased Global Recharge Speed

Level 14: Hasten

(A) Recharge Reduction IO
(50) Recharge Reduction IO

Level 16: Energy Protection

(A) Aegis - Resistance
(27) Aegis - Resistance/Endurance
(29) Aegis - Resistance/Recharge

Level 18: Rend Armor

(A) Hecatomb - Chance of Damage(Negative)
(29) Hecatomb - Damage/Endurance
(31) Hecatomb - Recharge/Accuracy
(31) Hecatomb - Damage/Recharge
(31) Hecatomb - Damage/Recharge/Accuracy
(33) Achilles' Heel - Chance for Res Debuff

Level 20: Energy Cloak

(A) Luck of the Gambler - Defense/Increased Global Recharge Speed

Level 22: Mystic Flight

(A) Winter's Gift - Slow Resistance (20%)

Level 24: Boxing

(A) Absolute Amazement - Stun/Endurance
(33) Absolute Amazement - Stun
(33) Absolute Amazement - Stun/Recharge
(34) Absolute Amazement - Stun/Recharge/Accuracy
(34) Absolute Amazement - Recharge/Accuracy

Level 26: Whirling Smash

(A) Superior Scrapper's Strike - Recharge/Critical Hit Bonus
(36) Superior Scrapper's Strike - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance/Recharge
(37) Superior Scrapper's Strike - Damage/Recharge
(37) Superior Scrapper's Strike - Accuracy/Damage/Recharge
(37) Superior Scrapper's Strike - Damage/Endurance/Recharge

Level 28: Energize

(A) Preventive Medicine - Chance for +Absorb
(39) Preventive Medicine - Heal
(39) Preventive Medicine - Heal/RechargeTime/Endurance
(39) Preventive Medicine - Heal/Endurance
(40) Preventive Medicine - Endurance/RechargeTime
(40) Preventive Medicine - Heal/RechargeTime

Level 30: Tough

(A) Unbreakable Guard - Resistance/Endurance/RechargeTime
(34) Unbreakable Guard - Resistance
(36) Unbreakable Guard - Resistance/Endurance
(36) Unbreakable Guard - +Max HP

Level 32: Arc of Destruction

Hamidon Origin:Nucleolus Exposure
(40) Armageddon - Damage
(42) Armageddon - Chance for Fire Damage
(42) Eradication - Chance for Energy Damage
(43) Fury of the Gladiator - Chance for Res Debuff
(43) Force Feedback - Chance for +Recharge

Level 35: Energy Drain

(A) Luck of the Gambler - Defense/Increased Global Recharge Speed

Level 38: Spirit Ward

(A) Healing IO

Level 41: Ring of Fire

(A) Apocalypse - Damage/Recharge/Accuracy
(42) Apocalypse - Damage/Recharge
(43) Apocalypse - Damage/Endurance
(45) Apocalypse - Chance of Damage(Negative)
(45) Apocalypse - Damage
(45) Decimation - Chance of Build Up

Level 44: Melt Armor

D-Sync Origin:D-Sync Provocation
(46) Achilles' Heel - Chance for Res Debuff

Level 47: Enflame

(A) Ragnarok - Damage
(48) Damage Increase IO

Level 49: Weave

(A) Luck of the Gambler - Defense/Increased Global Recharge Speed
(50) Red Fortune - Defense/Endurance
(50) Red Fortune - Defense

Level 1: Critical Hit

(A) Empty

Level 1: Sprint

(A) Run Speed IO

Level 2: Rest

(A) Empty

Level 1: Swift

(A) Run Speed IO

Level 1: Hurdle

(A) Jumping IO

Level 1: Health

(A) Panacea - +Hit Points/Endurance

Level 1: Stamina

(A) Performance Shifter - Chance for +End

Level 1: Momentum

Edited July 13, 2023 by SomeGuy

Panache · August 12, 2023

Symphony/Storm Troller, T4 Cardiac, T3 Reactive, T3 Ageless: 209 seconds for ~311 DPS

Cheating a bit by relying on small purples, but I wanted to see where it was at. Biggest area for improvement would be fully proccing out the pet (right now it just has the Malaise proc).

BrandX · August 13, 2023

Fire/Bio/Psi Sentinel - Muscularture Radial - Hybrid (Passive Only) - Spectral Radial

3:05 for 335 DPS

Will have to unlock and try this with Degenerative 🙂 I did use Parasitic Leech when it was up for the -Regen

Edit: Oh! Forgot, I was going with Blaze > Mind Probe > Dominate > Blaze > Fire Blast > Fire Ball > Repeat

Edited August 13, 2023 by BrandX

Panache · August 15, 2023

Lately I've been more into playing 'bad' combos. The most recent is a Thugs/Kin: T3 Vigor, T3 Barrier, T3 Reactive (also T3 Melee Hybrid like an idiot; switching that to Support)

Anywho: 168 seconds, 356 DPS. Shouts to Increase Density doing that -KB work.

(A note: this build isn't close to being done; whole lotta procs and ATOs still missing (Enforcers are prolly over-procced, though))

Edited August 15, 2023 by Panache

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