Overwhelming Force proc. Make this a global effect.

[Neogumbercules]

Overwhelming Force Damage/Chance For Knockdown/Knockback to Knockdown is a unique IO where the KB effect is unique. It's completely obsolete compared to the Sudden Acceleration proc, which is not unique.

 

I propose the IO remain unique but the KB to KD effect becomes a global effect. This way the IO is justified to have a unique status, and users who wish to have more granular control over their KB effects can use Sudden Acceleration. 

[kelly Rocket]

Already in testing on Justin.

 

Also it's not completely obsolete either way, as Overwhelming Force is a Universal Damage set, and the unique in the set has a Chance for Knockdown proc, which you can slot into powers that do not do knockdown/knockback at all, and make them do some knockdown.

Edited August 28, 2019 by kelly Rocket

[Neogumbercules]

34 minutes ago, kelly Rocket said:

Already in testing on Justin.

 

Also it's not completely obsolete either way, as Overwhelming Force is a Universal Damage set, and the unique in the set has a Chance for Knockdown proc, which you can slot into powers that do not do knockdown/knockback at all, and make them do some knockdown.

Oh cool I didn't know that it was already in testing. Is the current stuff being tested on Justin listed somewhere I'm too blind to find? 

[Vayek2]

this is a really cool Idea. It would certainly save slotting on toons with multiple knockback powers (like energy blasters and kheldians for example),

[Cix]

I don't like the all-or-nothing approach to KB>KD that keeps coming up here.  For example, my /Storm Mastermind really likes knockback in Gale and Hurricane, but likes it less in Tornado.  If knockback is to become a toggle or universal effect of a set, I don't get to choose.  I hope that these situations are taken into account when decisions are made.

[Neogumbercules]

10 minutes ago, Cix said:

I don't like the all-or-nothing approach to KB>KD that keeps coming up here.  For example, my /Storm Mastermind really likes knockback in Gale and Hurricane, but likes it less in Tornado.  If knockback is to become a toggle or universal effect of a set, I don't get to choose.  I hope that these situations are taken into account when decisions are made.

Agreed and that's why only the overwhelming force IO would apply this global effect. Where as if you only had a couple of powers that you wanted to convert, you would not slot Overwhelming Force, you would slot Sudden Acceleration on a per-power basis. 

[Rathulfr]

16 minutes ago, Cix said:

I don't like the all-or-nothing approach to KB>KD that keeps coming up here.  For example, my /Storm Mastermind really likes knockback in Gale and Hurricane, but likes it less in Tornado.  If knockback is to become a toggle or universal effect of a set, I don't get to choose.  I hope that these situations are taken into account when decisions are made.

QFT. I like my single-target knockbacks and my AoE knockdowns, as is, thanks.  I like having a choice: please don't take it away.

 

[Myrmidon]

Overwhelming Force: Complete KB-KD.

Sudden Acceleration: Choice KB-KD.

 

 

Where do I sign away the firstborn?

[Rathulfr]

7 minutes ago, Neogumbercules said:

Agreed and that's why only the overwhelming force IO would apply this global effect. Where as if you only had a couple of powers that you wanted to convert, you would not slot Overwhelming Force, you would slot Sudden Acceleration on a per-power basis. 

My Energy Blaster build has OF in Explosive Blast.  The suggested change would convert all my other ST KB attacks to KD, which I don't like.  If I remove the proc to restore the ST KB, then I lose 4 points of KB protection bonus from the OF set.

 

[Neogumbercules]

1 hour ago, Rathulfr said:

My Energy Blaster build has OF in Explosive Blast.  The suggested change would convert all my other ST KB attacks to KD, which I don't like.  If I remove the proc to restore the ST KB, then I lose 4 points of KB protection bonus from the OF set.

 

Not to diminish the importance of builds because I know we all put a lot of effort into them, but you could move that slot from EB and put it into any defense power you can slot a Karma -KB in it and still have your 4 points of KB prot. You could also put it into any travel power and slot the Zephyr -KB proc. Using zephyr you may even end up with a free slot if you don't have sprint or swift slotted you could just throw the Zephyr in one of those inherent powers. 

Edited August 28, 2019 by Neogumbercules

[Vanden]

40 minutes ago, Neogumbercules said:

Not to diminish the importance of builds because I know we all put a lot of effort into them, but you could move that slot from EB and put it into any defense power you can slot a Karma -KB in it and still have your 4 points of KB prot. You could also put it into any travel power and slot the Zephyr -KB proc. Using zephyr you may even end up with a free slot if you don't have sprint or swift slotted you could just throw the Zephyr in one of those inherent powers. 

...In which case you'd lose out on travel speed or a spot to put a LotG. And you can't put Zephyrs into Swift, Sprint, or its equivalents.

Edited August 28, 2019 by Vanden

[esotericist]

I think the fact overwhelming force can be used to add knockdown to a power that previously didn't have it is an important thing to emphasize.

 

Someone might want to be using it to add KD to a power without losing the ability to have knockback on the rest of their character.

[Neogumbercules]

41 minutes ago, Vanden said:

...In which case you'd lose out on travel speed or a spot to put a LotG. And you can't put Zephyrs into Swift, Sprint, or its equivalents.

Ah I didn't remember that about the inherent travels. You wouldn't lose a lotg slot though. You take the entire 6th slot from Explosive Blast and put it in a defense power. Or if that can't be done, if he has a resistance power like tough he can slot Steadfast. 

[ZeeHero]

Make overwhelming force a global effect which works on aoes and single target. make the other one, Sudden Accelleration, NOT be global. boom choice.

[Vayek2]

3 hours ago, Cix said:

I don't like the all-or-nothing approach to KB>KD that keeps coming up here.  For example, my /Storm Mastermind really likes knockback in Gale and Hurricane, but likes it less in Tornado.  If knockback is to become a toggle or universal effect of a set, I don't get to choose.  I hope that these situations are taken into account when decisions are made.

They can do this for the one unique set piece with proc benefit. and when people who want to be selective about it want to chose (like you do), they can use the sudden accelration proc that does exactly the same thing and isn't considered a unique enhancement (can be placed up to 5 times on a single build).

 

This way, both sides of the argument can win to whatever degree. And those that love a toon, but absolutely hate the knockback, they can slot a single IO to negate that for their entire build, and you can still be selective as to which powers have it.

[Vanden]

16 minutes ago, Vayek2 said:

They can do this for the one unique set piece with proc benefit. and when people who want to be selective about it want to chose (like you do), they can use the sudden accelration proc that does exactly the same thing and isn't considered a unique enhancement (can be placed up to 5 times on a single build).

 

This way, both sides of the argument can win to whatever degree. And those that love a toon, but absolutely hate the knockback, they can slot a single IO to negate that for their entire build, and you can still be selective as to which powers have it.

Unless, like Rathulfr said, you six-slotted OF to get the KB protection but don't want every attack you have to become knockdown.

[Rathulfr]

4 minutes ago, ZeeHero said:

Make overwhelming force a global effect which works on aoes and single target. make the other one, Sudden Accelleration, NOT be global. boom choice.

You first suggestion is the same as the OP's, and the second one is already the case: the Sudden Acceleration KB-to-KD is already a non-unique non-global -- it affects only the power into which it is slotted. 

 

I use the SA KB2KD in Nova, and give up one of the bonus effects from Superior: Avalanche.  I'd have to do the same with Explosive Blast, giving up the KB protection bonus from Overwhelming Force.  Consequently, I could not simply re-allocate that 6th slot to the Karma KB protection unique global.

 

Knockback is a feature, not a bug, of my chosen AT's primary power set (Energy Blast).  It's one of the things I like about my character, and makes the game fun for me.  Knockdown is certainly a reasonable alternative, and I don't begrudge anyone who would prefer to use it, but that's not what I want.  I feel like I've been pressured enough to change my AoEs to knockdowns in the first place by all the Energy Blaster haters out there.  Now you want me to change my build again?  No thanks.

 

So when all is said and done, I still have to /jranger any suggestion that involves universal KB-to-KD conversion.  Perhaps if the suggestion was to make the KB-to-KD proc apply globally only to AoEs, I'd go along with it.  But I'm sure someone else will have objections to that, too.

 

[Vayek2]

1 hour ago, Vanden said:

Unless, like Rathulfr said, you six-slotted OF to get the KB protection but don't want every attack you have to become knockdown.

you can get the same knockback protection from the steadfast protection proc, and save yourself those other 5 slots. Slot smarter, not harder.

[Vayek2]

1 hour ago, Rathulfr said:

So when all is said and done, I still have to /jranger any suggestion that involves universal KB-to-KD conversion.  Perhaps if the suggestion was to make the KB-to-KD proc apply globally only to AoEs, I'd go along with it.  But I'm sure someone else will have objections to that, too.

which means you aren't just discussing, you are arguing to take away the choices of others because it inconveniences you in some way, when alternatives to keep the way you want are plentiful. Its not a discussion at that point, just an argument.

[Vanden]

44 minutes ago, Vayek2 said:

you can get the same knockback protection from the steadfast protection proc, and save yourself those other 5 slots. Slot smarter, not harder.

How am I saving 5 slots? If I six slotted an attack with a damage set it's obviously an attack I want to use and I'll six slot it either way. 6-slotting Overwhelming Force in something is slotting smarter because it gives decent enhancement values and set bonuses, and gets you knockback protection without having to devote a mule slot.

Edited August 29, 2019 by Vanden

[Kistulot]

I would love one slot being good for everything. I really want an energy blast toon that is just kd, not kb, but that means each power needs that slotted... and that's no good 😕

[Zolgar]

30 minutes ago, Kistulot said:

I would love one slot being good for everything. I really want an energy blast toon that is just kd, not kb, but that means each power needs that slotted... and that's no good 😕

This is important.

 

Some people don't want kb at all, preferring the tighter control of knockdown. This is 100% as valid as those who want all the kb, or some of the kb.

 

They're working on an option to make "none of the kb" less of a slot tax on those players, an option which will only have a slight inconvenience on a specific subset of the players who want some of the kb. As with all changes to powers, it may require a respec to fix, but ultimately won't be a real detriment to anyone.

[Cix]

18 hours ago, Zolgar said:

Some people don't want kb at all, preferring the tighter control of knockdown. This is 100% as valid as those who want all the kb, or some of the kb.

 

The potential issue here is that there's a whole lot going on under the hood.  Powers are balanced with soft controls like knockback and knockdown in mind.  Being able to completely alter a set's function is a dangerous path.  I'm actually kind of stunned Bonfire hasn't been rebalanced.

 

18 hours ago, Kistulot said:

I would love one slot being good for everything. I really want an energy blast toon that is just kd, not kb, but that means each power needs that slotted... and that's no good 😕

 

Then there's Cottage Rule stuff.  A person who logs off on an energy/energy blaster expects the powers to work the same the next morning.  If they had an Overwhelming Force proc slotted in Nova, they're going to be pretty ticked when Power Thrust doesn't knock a guy out of their face.

Edited August 29, 2019 by Cix
typo

[Kistulot]

1 minute ago, Cix said:

Then there's Cottage Rule stuff.  A person who logs off on an energy/energy blaster expect the powers to work the same the next morning.  If they had an Overwhelming Force proc slotted in Nova, they're going to be pretty ticked when Power Thrust doesn't knock a guy out of their face.

There's also "it'd be great if some powersets didn't constantly mean "welp, guess playing kin today sucks"

[Cix]

15 minutes ago, Kistulot said:

There's also "it'd be great if some powersets didn't constantly mean "welp, guess playing kin today sucks"

I mean...yeah?  The whole point of having so many character options is to allow player choice.  If your powerset meshes poorly with another player's, then you can either find the synergy or find another team.  Fundamentally altering everyone's playstyle should not be taken lightly.