Hypothetical: Illusion Control for Dominators

[oedipus_tex]

Illusion Control is one of the few sets that has not been proliferated by the Homecoming devs from one archetype to a similar archetype.

 

I think the reasoning is that there are few powers that would directly benefit from Domination mode. Only Blind, Confuse, and Flash directly benefit.

 

On the other hand, Domination comes with its own benefits: mezz breakout and protection, and a refill of the blue bar.

 

I would personally be fine if Illusion Control was proliferated as-is. But if developers don't like it due to not enough powers being able to Dominate, swapping Spectral Terror out for Terrorize (a perhaps a version of it that has a radial shape instead of a cone) might be enough to make it viable.

 

The other potential path would be to create a way for psuedo-pets to inherit Domination, which is a much more difficult thing to achieve, but would improve certain other Control sets when proliferated.

 

Thoughts?

 

 

[Carnifax]

Isnt there a way around Spectral. That is to get it to summon one version if not in Domination and another suped up version when in Domination. 

 

I thought something recent works like that but I cant remember now (Shadow Field maybe in Dark?)

[Tater Todd]

I agree with you.  I'd be perfectly happy with an Illusion Control port as is...but I don't know how other Dominator players would feel about it.  I think the old Devs did a bit too much overthinking when it came to porting stuff; for example how they were against porting Ice Melee over to Brutes when in reality we all now know that it was fine and Ice Brutes have no issue with aggro management.  The Devs also thought that Dominators were over performing compared to Controllers.  The Devs didn't take in account that factors like utility, support, damage, containment damage, debuffing and survival that Controller secondaries provided as well as the proc options. 

Remaking Illusion Control for Dominators would probably be beyond time consuming and I don't know if the Homecoming team would want to burn so much time.  I think they deserve it though since dominators have the least amount of build options compared to any of the non Vet Archetypes.

[Lamb Chop]

Yeah I want that Illusion/Energy. I could care less if it underperforms or if it isn't well suited for a Dom, port it anyway!

[M3z]

I've been wanting illusion control forever now. Don't really care that domination doesn't interact very much with it. I just think it's a fun set.

[lobster]

I mean,

On 9/8/2019 at 11:10 AM, oedipus_tex said:

I think the reasoning is that there are few powers that would directly benefit from Domination mode. Only Blind, Confuse, and Flash directly benefit.

 

I'm on board with the idea that this isn't much of an argument.   Earth isn't too far off.  Stone Prison, Fossilize, Stone Cages, Salt Crystals (which almost no one uses) & Stalagmites.   Grav is about the same.

My vague recollection was that the devs thought it would be too powerful?  Likely because it's a high damage primary.  Still...with the Grav changes...I think it would be fine.

[Mercurias]

I don’t think I’d play Illusion as a Dominator main. It’s a powerful offensive class in its own right. Even adding Domination into the mix, I feel like you would lose a lot more than you would gain by swapping a support secondary with an assault secondary. 

 

I also worry about porting a set knowing it might underperform. Even if it’s a nice change for some, people are going to complain. Loudly.

[oedipus_tex]

1 hour ago, Mercurias said:

I don’t think I’d play Illusion as a Dominator main. It’s a powerful offensive class in its own right. Even adding Domination into the mix, I feel like you would lose a lot more than you would gain by swapping a support secondary with an assault secondary. 

 

I also worry about porting a set knowing it might underperform. Even if it’s a nice change for some, people are going to complain. Loudly.

 

Would it really underperform though? Illusion/Storm is already a damage-centric Illusion Controller. I feel like Illusion/Assault would be pretty close in power to that. Not a great AV killer in most cases but still pretty formidable.

 

Of course, maybe the devs are thinking of how Illusion Control wouldn't really play that well at melee.

Edited September 10, 2019 by oedipus_tex

[biostem]

Another thing to consider is that with illusion, you get spectral wounds, which is fairly unique among control sets, since it's a direct damage attack - but you pay for that by the enemy eventually healing back the damage if they're not defeated in short order.  As a dominator, you're already getting those, but without that drawback.  At least with gravity, its direct damage attacks come with some useful control abilities, (knock up and knockdown).

 

Still, it'd be awesome to be able to blast and punch along with your phantom army!

[Coyote]

I don't think that Illusion Control will play nearly as well for Dominators as for Controllers.

But... I also don't think that this should be a determining factor. Mind Control plays far better for Dominators than for Controllers, for example, and nobody is complaining that it's available. The same for Gravity, also... far better for Controllers, but while most players will suggest that it's not as good for Doms, nobody is saying that it's a bad thing that it's available to Doms.

In the end, I think that people hoping for great Doms with Illusion Control will be disappointed, but I also think that people won't complain if it's made available.

[Jazra]

22 hours ago, lobster said:

I mean,

I'm on board with the idea that this isn't much of an argument.   Earth isn't too far off.  Stone Prison, Fossilize, Stone Cages, Salt Crystals (which almost no one uses) & Stalagmites.   Grav is about the same.

My vague recollection was that the devs thought it would be too powerful?  Likely because it's a high damage primary.  Still...with the Grav changes...I think it would be fine.

So, Illusion Control has 3 powers that would benefit from Domination, and you hold up a powerset that has 5 powers that benefit from Domination as a comparison?

 

My recollection from back in the day is that they didn't port Illusion over to Dominators because Illusion didn't have many powers that would help increase Domination, rather than because of powers that would benefit from it.  5 of their powers have no effect on the Dom bar. Three pets, and two invisibility.

[lobster]

6 hours ago, Jazra said:

So, Illusion Control has 3 powers that would benefit from Domination, and you hold up a powerset that has 5 powers that benefit from Domination as a comparison?

 

 

Earth has arguably 4, since no one (?) uses the sleep.  Of those 4, I can't see myself taking more than 3 (Fossilize, Stalagmites and Cages OR Prison)- I should have spelled that out.  I would take all 3 of the Illusion powers, so it was a pretty direct comparison to me.

 

Quote

 

My recollection from back in the day is that they didn't port Illusion over to Dominators because Illusion didn't have many powers that would help increase Domination, rather than because of powers that would benefit from it.  5 of their powers have no effect on the Dom bar. Three pets, and two invisibility.

 

 

 

I can't remember the specifics, quick googling yields that the domination bar is boosted by "attacks" : "A Dominator's Domination level is shown by an orange bar between Endurance and Experience Points. It rises each time he attacks. It rises faster if the Dominator has more teammates. This is a mild effect with one or two teammates, but on a large team Domination can be brought from 0 to over 90% with fewer than ten attacks. " (from the wikis).  I believe this includes controls that do damage (at minimum), I'm not sure if it includes things like controls that do no damage and pseudopets (earthquake, gasses, etc.  I can check this tonight when I get home on my earth dom). [EDIT: Tested, for earth at least, EQ/Gasses/QS add 0 domination]

All dominators have pets, so that one doesn't count.  Many of them have pseudopets like phantom army and spectral terror (earth has two, ice has one, dark has one, etc.).  The presence of two separate buffs does stand out, but this could be compared to fire having Smoke+Hot Feet.  If any changes were to be made to dominator Illusion, changing one of the Inivis buffs would be what I would suggest.  BUT. I don't think it's needed, just maybe something people might point out.

The bit about power level is the only thing I SORT of remember, but I'm not claiming that's 100% fact, I could easily be misremembering.  Whatever the case, I think the set is fine to proliferate now and I'm really curious why they didn't during the Dark Secret Days (TM).

Edited September 12, 2019 by lobster

[oedipus_tex]

Fair point about pets. Keep in mind for most other sets, Dominators somewhat lose out on pets because they dont really have the mechanisms to support them. Illusion has invincible pets (barring the Phantasm) so doesn't make this tradeoff. 

 

I feel like Illusion/Fire Assault/Cold would be incredibly powerful but have nothing specific to back this up.

Edited September 11, 2019 by oedipus_tex

[The_Cheeseman]

Yeah, I am thinking that Phantom Army would be a bit too good when paired with an assault secondary. Doms already max recharge by default anyways, so getting perma-PA would be a no-brainer. Invulnerable pets with high aggro generation and a high-DPS secondary with full-time mez protection is... Pretty OP. Plus, Illusion has a non-aggro confuse power, so they could perma-confuse AVs/GMs, alongside their perma-PA and nukes.

So yeah, I am not really worried about Illusion being too weak on a Dom, but rather it being the single most effective solo character in the game.

[Tater Todd]

I think it's a bit much to say that an Illusion Dominator would be the strongest combo in the game when we have pairing like Bots/Force Field, Thugs/Anything Mastermind, Fire/Rad Controller, Dark/Dark Defender, Titan/Bio Scrapper to name a few.  It might add Dominators onto the lists of greats but I doubt a Illusion/Fire Dominator would be able to out perform something like a Thugs/Time Mastermind.

[The_Cheeseman]

Well, I guess it's pointless to argue hypotheticals, but my point was that there very well may be more complex issues with directly porting Illusion Control to Dominators than appear at first glance.

[Demon Shell]

I also remember the devs (and other players) saying Illusion wouldn't be as strong on Dominators. But I think maybe what they meant, or were obtusifying to avoid a conversation about it, is that it would play differently.

 

Dominators don't have any defense buffing abilities in any of their sets, but they have Power Boost in more than a few Assault sets. It's not a big deal for a Controller to hit soft cap defense to all positionals (or even hard-cap resist) on their own, their damage isn't as high. But a Dominator with significantly higher Defense via Superior Invis/Group Invis, even with less damage or control, would be a very different beast. And I'm sure we all know by now that Illusion does not deal less damage, and even without much to directly benefit Domination, it doesn't lack in control either (even if it's aggro control instead of mez).

 

Over/under-powered isn't even in the discussion; all of that can be retuned. That type of survival is just not a Dominator.

[Coyote]

I think that Illusion Control would be a very strong set on Dominators, it's just that it wouldn't really be that strong VIA DOMINATION. If you're not being attacked, then the mez protection doesn't matter that much. Your main AoE controls (PA and Spectral Terror) don't benefit from Domination. And against Bosses, PA is probably your main control also. So in the end, I think it would be a very powerful character, but wouldn't play like other Dominators.

 

Personally... I don't think that's a bad thing. Giving different playstyle options for the same AT is not a bad thing. But perhaps the Devs didn't feel like risking trying to balance such a different playstyle.

[Tater Todd]

I mean let's be honest.  Illusion Controllers don't play like other Controllers lol.  The only thing that comes close is Plant Control and maybe Dark Control.

 

[Demon Shell]

1 hour ago, Tater Todd said:

I mean let's be honest.  Illusion Controllers don't play like other Controllers lol.

The tools a Controller gets in Illusion Control that aren't Control set staples, are used the same way (and many times overlap with the functions found) in their secondary. They are designed to protect you and your team.

 

Dominators don't do that. They shutdown and kill. Giving them Illusion Control would give them team support to a degree they've never had before.

[M3z]

How would dominators having illusion control be even 1/10000000th as broken as a tw/fire or kat/bio scrapper in pve. There are so many busted builds in pve right now, pve is incredibly unbalanced and broken. I don't even think ill/ would be broken, it would just be strong. People need to stop pretending like pve is this finely tuned, carefully balanced gaming experience.

[Tater Todd]

On 9/23/2019 at 4:02 AM, Demon Shell said:

The tools a Controller gets in Illusion Control that aren't Control set staples, are used the same way (and many times overlap with the functions found) in their secondary. They are designed to protect you and your team.

 

Dominators don't do that. They shutdown and kill. Giving them Illusion Control would give them team support to a degree they've never had before.

I don't know if I can agree with you there Demon Shell.  I think a lot of players get hung up on the hypothetical but in reality it's possible to Perma Carrion Creepers from Plant Control as well as Haunt from Dark Control.  Creepers and Haunt with proper Proc slotting deals impressive damage and it also Tanks and absorbs aggro for the caster.  These two sets are insanely powerful and also available to Dominators and currently on Homecoming any combo with these two control sets are insanely strong but they are not anywhere near the lines of broken. 

There are also insanely damaging pairings for controllers that not only support the team but deal broken damage.  Plant/Traps, Ill/Traps are some examples of pairings that deal so much damage/support that it rivals Masterminds and Scrappers.  Speaking of Broken can you imagine perma Gang War fully Fulcrum Shifted? (Or 2 Gang Wars)  That's possible now and I have teamed with a few people who are able to do this and let me tell you it is a sight to behold. 

An Illusion Dominator would be strong but top tier server broken?  Ehhh.

Edited September 24, 2019 by Tater Todd

[Dr Causality]

I'd love to have Illusion as an option.   But I definitely think it would border on broken:   

 

• Invincible Taunt pets, that need Recharge to make perma., where Doms need Rech for Perma Dom
• Mind/Fire is already a solo AV killer.   Domination means Confuse would let you perma mezz AVs just like Mind, except you'd also have multiple pets for DPS and the PA Taunt for the oops I didn't keep enough Confuse spammed on that AV...
• Ice Mastery Epic gives you Sleet for -Res and soft control, HoarFrost Heal/Max HP, etc. 
• Or you can go Mace Mastery for Poisonous Ray goodness and another pet.  
• Mace Mastery Probably being the best since having three pet powers means you can easily fit all the four Pet Procs in.....and they matter because your Lore Pets benefit from them.   
• Then if you want -Regen you have Psi's Drain Psyche which can reach up to close to -1000% Regen with full slotting and a bit over -1100% Regen with Incarnate Heal boost from Spiritual or Vigor. 
• Psi also gives you the single target Subdue which is the Immoblize that Illusion is missing.  Psi's DPS isn't that great, but the changes to Snipe Powers should help the single target attack damage significantly.
• Or you can go pure Dmg with Fire or Martial Assault.  

 

Hands down this would be a contender for the new solo Giant Killer.    Sure you don't get the team support powers that a Controller has, but you get all the core tools you need for taking out hard targets.

[Coyote]

Well, I have to argue against this... you see, an Illusion Dominator who had perma-PA.... could perma-Hold an AV anyhow. Mind/x can do it. So, with Mind/Psy being able to perma-Hold the AV while putting out damage at it, and the ability to start the fight with perma-Confuse and transition into a perma-Hold... it seems like the idea that you can solo AVs very effectively as a Dom is already in the game.

 

Granted, Illusion would allow you to go higher in AV level, since it may be impossible to perma-Hold an AV at +3 or +4 (though perma-Confuse should be doable)... but this is a relatively niche benefit.

 

The above arguments all point out why Illusion Control is good, but... isn't it too good a set for Controllers, then? And I don't see that argument being made. In return for great single-target control that works on AVs, Illusion has pretty weak team AoE control, which is considered at least as important for most of the players in most of the game. So, if the set isn't broken for Controllers, what makes it broken for Dominators? Controllers have other tools to handle AVs in many of their secondary sets, but Dominators have other tools to handle AVs in many of their powerset combinations (Fire and Mind can perma-Hold AVs, and several other sets can do it if you match them with Power Up from the secondary).

[Radiaria]

I'd love it if Illusion went to Dominators, I think there's 0 reason it shouldn't be even if it's viewed as "inferior."